subject:"\[google\-appengine\] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you"

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-11-26 Thread Robert Dyas

Can I +100 this?

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:44:58 AM UTC-4, Karl MacMillan wrote:
>
> Katie,
>
> I feel compelled to point out that how this discussion going is a good 
> example of some of the things that I - and it seems others - are frustrated 
> about. You’ve asked for and received concrete feedback. Yet we’ve received 
> no answers or discussion back from Google engineers. At least a simple 
> acknowledgement of the _specific_ issues we’ve raised from someone with 
> some knowledge would be helpful. Otherwise how am I to know that you 
> bringing the “feedback to the appropriate team members” is anything more 
> than them receiving an email that they’ll simply delete?
>
> Look at this way - we’ve invested and in many cases bet our businesses on 
> GCP. And especially with App Engine, this is very much an investment in an 
> ecosystem that you’ve created that’s largely separate from the rest of the 
> industry. It’s hard to have confidence in that bet given the almost total 
> lack of public engagement from Google to help make this a vibrant ecosystem.
>
> Karl
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support) <
> kmrich...@google.com > wrote:
>
> Hi Karl,
>
> You've taken some extra time and extra care to put this feedback together 
> -- thank you! It's incredibly helpful; this is exactly what we need in 
> order to better serve our users and the cloud computing community. 
>
> I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start 
> improving things as suggested in your post.
>
> Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is, 
> we'd like to offer our help as a thank you.
>
> To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd 
> like to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!
>
> Thanks again,
> Katie
>
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> 
> .
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>
>

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-30 Thread Aswath Satrasala

Appengine new Instance spinning for user facing requests. I think there is
no recommended process or solution for this. This issue is the most
important for production apps.This is discussed many times.

-Aswath
www.AccountingGuru.net
www.VeersoftSolutions.com

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Kaan Soral kaanso...@gmail.com wrote:

There are many great suggestions that are already made on this thread, but
I would like to concentrate on a single and extremely important aspect:
*Support*

There are many edge issues of App Engine, or any product in general, yet
with App Engine, these issues are almost never acknowledged and solved
properly, we generally have to work around them for years, examples:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/google-appengine/GIRRoBxQZMo -
Issue ignored + Thread closed - No freedom of speech either
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/google-appengine/2O87iU8ySCM - A
similar but recent issue, All I see in my logs are these errors, yet no one
helps me, no one can help me, there is no channel that I can request for
support

I'm not going to pay for support for a product that I'm already paying
considerable amounts, the support packages are also too complicated, unclear

What we need is a new/structured purpose-built community both for issue
tracking, support and help, which is both community based, google-backed
and open (or simply some dedication to issues here and bugs in general, at
min)

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-30 Thread Kaan Soral

There are many great suggestions that are already made on this thread, but 
I would like to concentrate on a single and extremely important aspect: 
*Support*

There are many edge issues of App Engine, or any product in general, yet 
with App Engine, these issues are almost never acknowledged and solved 
properly, we generally have to work around them for years, examples:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/google-appengine/GIRRoBxQZMo - 
Issue ignored + Thread closed - No freedom of speech either
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/google-appengine/2O87iU8ySCM - A 
similar but recent issue, All I see in my logs are these errors, yet no one 
helps me, no one can help me, there is no channel that I can request for 
support

I'm not going to pay for support for a product that I'm already paying 
considerable amounts, the support packages are also too complicated, unclear

What we need is a new/structured purpose-built community both for issue 
tracking, support and help, which is both community based, google-backed 
and open (or simply some dedication to issues here and bugs in general, at 
min)

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-29 Thread Aleem Mawani

On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 10:03 PM 'Chris Ramsdale' via Google App Engine 
google-appengine@googlegroups.com wrote:

 excellent feedback.  some comments inline below.

 On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

 @chris, thanks for asking,

 1) Sorry I might have had some confusion here, I thought traffic
 splitting/traffic migration didn't work for managed VM's but it in fact it
 doesn't work for any non-default module. We haven't yet tried to put our
 default module on managed vms because of stability concerns (may be
 outdated) and the api's listed below)


 a fix for this is in the works.  i'll come back with a date.

thanks!




 2) Re: APIs, we can't yet do the following in Managed VM's:

 - channel api: we use this to send realtime notifications to web/mobile
 clients


 have you looked into the Firebase API set?  would that work for you or is
 there some deficiency?

Looked into it briefly, but two things concern me:
1) Firebase is designed to synchronize state across several clients and
does a great job of this. But you kind of have to shoehorn in message
passing. So if your app is already built using the channel api which is
more message based, moving to firebase is a little awkward. For a new app
this might be less of a problem. I've heard rumblings about firebase +
datastore but I'm suspicious that could work well (if every client needs to
provide a list of entities it would like to subscribe to, this is non
trivial) for us at least.

2) Its far more expensive than channel API since its based on number of
connections. We'd blow through their highest tiered plan and likely
increase our monthly bills by double digit percentages.

If channel API is going away, the natural replacement seems to be GCM if it
supported web clients.



 - logging api: we use this to export our logs to BQ


 slightly related to my point above, our goal is to enable this via Google
 Cloud Logging.  have you taken a look at their integration with BQ?


Its good, but we need to process logs before sending to bigquery. We'd like
to implement a Cloud Logginng - PubSub - Dataflow - Bigquery  workflow
which would remove the need for us to even use GAE insances to get logs to
BQ but the Cloud Logging - PubSub is the missing piece that isn't
available yet. Neither is the Logging API on Managed VMs so we're left with
using vanilla GAE instances to do background log processing.




 3) The other things preventing us from moving default module over to
 managed vms:

 - cloud console dashboard doesn't show a lot of the aggregate metrics for
 a managed vm module, most importantly instance count over time.
 - cloud monitoring can't monitor managed vm instance count


 good feedback, and i've passed this on to the Cloud monitoring folks.

is the plan for cloud monitoring to replace GAE dashboard. Or for the
dashboard to show instance counts of managed vms? I.e. where should we get
this data?



 - seemed that instances would go into unhealthy state and not recover or
 get killed (this could be outdated)


 there have been several changes submitted to address this issue.  please
 do let me know if you are still seeing this issue.

will do.



Thanks for all the responses!



 At the current moment there seems to be no major concerns with managed
 VM's (except for the things you're working on like startup time and deploy
 time and dev experience) but there are dozens of tiny gotchas which
 individually don't seem like much but together are a big enough deal that
 we don't serve front end traffic over it.

 For background processing the value is so high that we've moved all of
 our backend modules to managed vms (unless they need any of the above
 API's).

 On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

 yes, the goal is to get App Engine Managed VMs (v2) to a state where
 they are ideal for frontend serving.  couple of questions for you:

 (1)  is traffic splitting and deploy-to-a-default-module not working for
 you?
 (2)  re: APIs, which ones would you like to see enabled?  you mentioned
 logging (and the goal is to move App Engine Logging API over to Google
 Cloud Logging all-up), but what else are you looking for?

 -- Chris

 On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

 Chris - with the improvements you're suggesting to Managed VMs (20 sec
 deploys, 1 sec instance startup time) - will it be recommended to use
 Managed VMs to serve frontend traffic? Right now they seem to be more
 targetted to backend processing because of the slow scaling.

 If this is true, and you are targeting it to serve front end traffic,
 does that mean we'll be able to deploy Managed VMs to our default modules,
 perform traffic splitting, access the logging api's and realtime api's,
 etc? These are the things that have been traditionally missing from managed
 vms.

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:



 On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM,

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-29 Thread Jason Collins



 we need to process logs before sending to bigquery

 
Aleem, can you tell me more about what processing you do on your logs 
before sending them to BigQuery?

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-29 Thread Aleem Mawani

During the course of an appengine request, we record a bunch of stats in
the logs, such as number/type of datastore operations, profiling info,
URLfetch stats, etc. Before the logs can go into BigQuery, we want to
extract that info from the logs and place them in particular columns in our
BigQuery tables.

Currently our GAE instances do this transformation but ideally this
transformation would be done in dataflow which would be way more efficient,
less code to write, cheaper, more stable and managed!

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 12:08 PM Jason Collins jason.a.coll...@gmail.com
wrote:

we need to process logs before sending to bigquery

Aleem, can you tell me more about what processing you do on your logs
before sending them to BigQuery?

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-28 Thread 'Chris Ramsdale' via Google App Engine

excellent feedback. some comments inline below.

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

@chris, thanks for asking,

1) Sorry I might have had some confusion here, I thought traffic
splitting/traffic migration didn't work for managed VM's but it in fact it
doesn't work for any non-default module. We haven't yet tried to put our
default module on managed vms because of stability concerns (may be
outdated) and the api's listed below)

a fix for this is in the works. i'll come back with a date.

2) Re: APIs, we can't yet do the following in Managed VM's:

- channel api: we use this to send realtime notifications to web/mobile
clients

have you looked into the Firebase API set? would that work for you or is
there some deficiency?

- logging api: we use this to export our logs to BQ

slightly related to my point above, our goal is to enable this via Google
Cloud Logging. have you taken a look at their integration with BQ?

3) The other things preventing us from moving default module over to
managed vms:

- cloud console dashboard doesn't show a lot of the aggregate metrics for
a managed vm module, most importantly instance count over time.
- cloud monitoring can't monitor managed vm instance count

good feedback, and i've passed this on to the Cloud monitoring folks.

- seemed that instances would go into unhealthy state and not recover or
get killed (this could be outdated)

there have been several changes submitted to address this issue. please do
let me know if you are still seeing this issue.

At the current moment there seems to be no major concerns with managed
VM's (except for the things you're working on like startup time and deploy
time and dev experience) but there are dozens of tiny gotchas which
individually don't seem like much but together are a big enough deal that
we don't serve front end traffic over it.

For background processing the value is so high that we've moved all of our
backend modules to managed vms (unless they need any of the above API's).

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

yes, the goal is to get App Engine Managed VMs (v2) to a state where they
are ideal for frontend serving. couple of questions for you:

(1) is traffic splitting and deploy-to-a-default-module not working for
you?
(2) re: APIs, which ones would you like to see enabled? you mentioned
logging (and the goal is to move App Engine Logging API over to Google
Cloud Logging all-up), but what else are you looking for?

-- Chris

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

Chris - with the improvements you're suggesting to Managed VMs (20 sec
deploys, 1 sec instance startup time) - will it be recommended to use
Managed VMs to serve frontend traffic? Right now they seem to be more
targetted to backend processing because of the slow scaling.

If this is true, and you are targeting it to serve front end traffic,
does that mean we'll be able to deploy Managed VMs to our default modules,
perform traffic splitting, access the logging api's and realtime api's,
etc? These are the things that have been traditionally missing from managed
vms.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com wrote:

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5
years, so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so
let
me chime in a bit:

On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem,
with the consequence that is very easy to choose the wrong solution.
There
is actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions
can result in an order of magnitude difference in costs/latency/complexity
etc. I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every
property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone
tries
to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much better
fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up
disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting
out
on GCP seems very important.

I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It
doesn't need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3,
Java
8, SSL etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list
somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

Now back to App Engine:

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-25 Thread rajesh . gupta

My company have been on appengine over 4-5 years now. We use namespaces a 
lot, for organising the users data.
Better namespaces support in all tools and utilities
After the backup, able to selectively restore the namespace data, to 
another appid
Easy Export of namespace data to Google spreadsheet
Datastore viewer (both new and old) needs lot of improvement.  It is 
difficult to navigate the data and correct the data.  For example, the list 
property data cannot be edited in the datastore viewer

Currently, mapreduce is only the framework for processing/migrating the 
data.  This opensource project should have more documentation and examples. 
 Again, there is lack of namespaces examples and lack of documentation on 
the namespaces.  

Rajesh
www.AccountingGuru.net
Accounting/Inventory/Billing on Google Cloud Platform.


On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 3:39:29 AM UTC+5:30, Aleem Mawani wrote:

 @chris, thanks for asking,

 1) Sorry I might have had some confusion here, I thought traffic 
 splitting/traffic migration didn't work for managed VM's but it in fact it 
 doesn't work for any non-default module. We haven't yet tried to put our 
 default module on managed vms because of stability concerns (may be 
 outdated) and the api's listed below)

 2) Re: APIs, we can't yet do the following in Managed VM's:

 - channel api: we use this to send realtime notifications to web/mobile 
 clients
 - logging api: we use this to export our logs to BQ

 3) The other things preventing us from moving default module over to 
 managed vms: 

 - cloud console dashboard doesn't show a lot of the aggregate metrics for 
 a managed vm module, most importantly instance count over time.
 - cloud monitoring can't monitor managed vm instance count
 - seemed that instances would go into unhealthy state and not recover or 
 get killed (this could be outdated)


 At the current moment there seems to be no major concerns with managed 
 VM's (except for the things you're working on like startup time and deploy 
 time and dev experience) but there are dozens of tiny gotchas which 
 individually don't seem like much but together are a big enough deal that 
 we don't serve front end traffic over it.

 For background processing the value is so high that we've moved all of our 
 backend modules to managed vms (unless they need any of the above API's).

 On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

 yes, the goal is to get App Engine Managed VMs (v2) to a state where they 
 are ideal for frontend serving.  couple of questions for you:

 (1)  is traffic splitting and deploy-to-a-default-module not working for 
 you?
 (2)  re: APIs, which ones would you like to see enabled?  you mentioned 
 logging (and the goal is to move App Engine Logging API over to Google 
 Cloud Logging all-up), but what else are you looking for?

 -- Chris

 On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

 Chris - with the improvements you're suggesting to Managed VMs (20 sec 
 deploys, 1 sec instance startup time) - will it be recommended to use 
 Managed VMs to serve frontend traffic? Right now they seem to be more 
 targetted to backend processing because of the slow scaling.

 If this is true, and you are targeting it to serve front end traffic, 
 does that mean we'll be able to deploy Managed VMs to our default modules, 
 perform traffic splitting, access the logging api's and realtime api's, 
 etc? These are the things that have been traditionally missing from managed 
 vms.

 On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:



 On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com wrote:

 What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

 I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5 
 years, so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so 
 let 
 me chime in a bit:

 On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem, 
 with the consequence that is  very easy to choose the wrong solution. 
 There 
 is actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

 This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions 
 can result in an order of magnitude difference in 
 costs/latency/complexity 
 etc. I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every 
 property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone 
 tries 
 to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much 
 better 
 fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up 
 disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting 
 out 
 on GCP seems very important.

 I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It 
 doesn't need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3, 
 Java 
 8, SSL etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list 
 somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

 Now back to App

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-23 Thread Aleem Mawani

If this is true, and you are targeting it to serve front end traffic, does
that mean we'll be able to deploy Managed VMs to our default modules,
perform traffic splitting, access the logging api's and realtime api's,
etc? These are the things that have been traditionally missing from managed
vms.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com
javascript: wrote:

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5 years,
so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so let me
chime in a bit:

On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem,
with the consequence that is very easy to choose the wrong solution. There
is actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions can
result in an order of magnitude difference in costs/latency/complexity etc.
I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every
property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone tries
to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much better
fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up
disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting out
on GCP seems very important.

I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It doesn't
need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3, Java 8, SSL
etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list
somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

Now back to App Engine:

Like I said in my post on the other thread
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/forum/?place=msg%2Fgoogle-appengine%2FqTyc2E-0IXc%2FPxUzFMXhzjQJ,

the trend towards managed VMs worries me a bit. For us,
zero-configuration/no-maintenance is not just another feature of App
Engine, it is one of the most important ones! We want to write our programs
and then keep them running for years (5+) without having to do *anything*.
Some of our apps are running like this for years now, and I want to ensure
that this stays possible in the future.

Managed VMs represent a new hosting environment that brings with it a set
of feature benefits -- open source compatible runtimes, more CPU / memory
configurations, access to native resources such as a file system and
network stack. we'll be investing in this environment more and more over
the coming months (we're ripping docker out of the getting started flow,
getting deployment times to 20 secs, getting instance activation time to
1 sec, adding scale to/from zero instances, etc.) that said, don't worry,
we'll absolutely keep your existing v1 apps running just as they have for
years.

Glad to see the Docker fad go, but please don't replace it with something
where I need to choose my technology stack in some way. Just provide a
set of stable APIs instead so we can consider everything else an
implementation detail for App Engine to worry about :)

exactly. if anything, we're going to make those same APIs available from
other compute environments (e.g. Compute Engine and Container Engine).

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:31:47 AM UTC+2, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Vinny P vinn...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

*Managed VMs:* The development toolchain for Managed VMs can be a bit
finicky. To be quite honest I have no idea how I got Managed VMs working
on
my laptop. Streamlining this would be a huge benefit to me, and probably a
lot of first-timers. If you can convince one of the online IDE services to
simplify creating Managed VM GAE apps, that would be super.

For smaller or toy apps within Managed VMs: I shouldn't need to care
about the Docker container running the application; I should be able to
create an application using just Eclipse + Google Plugin, then be able to
deploy straight to a Managed VM runtime *without* the intermediate
step of having gcloud create and store a dockerfile
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/tutorial/step2#dockerfile
.

We're removing the Docker toolchain from the mix and will be surfacing a
hosted build service that handles this on your behalf. Their toolchain is
simply unstable.

*Firebase:* I'm glad that Google bought up Firebase - they have a lot
of great ideas

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-23 Thread Aleem Mawani

@chris, thanks for asking,

2) Re: APIs, we can't yet do the following in Managed VM's:

- channel api: we use this to send realtime notifications to web/mobile
clients
- logging api: we use this to export our logs to BQ

3) The other things preventing us from moving default module over to
managed vms:

- cloud console dashboard doesn't show a lot of the aggregate metrics for a
managed vm module, most importantly instance count over time.
- cloud monitoring can't monitor managed vm instance count
- seemed that instances would go into unhealthy state and not recover or
get killed (this could be outdated)

At the current moment there seems to be no major concerns with managed VM's
(except for the things you're working on like startup time and deploy time
and dev experience) but there are dozens of tiny gotchas which individually
don't seem like much but together are a big enough deal that we don't serve
front end traffic over it.

For background processing the value is so high that we've moved all of our
backend modules to managed vms (unless they need any of the above API's).

On Thursday, April 23, 2015 at 2:24:59 PM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

yes, the goal is to get App Engine Managed VMs (v2) to a state where they
are ideal for frontend serving. couple of questions for you:

-- Chris

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com
javascript: wrote:

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com wrote:

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5
years, so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so
let
me chime in a bit:

Now back to App Engine:

Like I said in my post on the other thread
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/forum/?place=msg%2Fgoogle-appengine%2FqTyc2E-0IXc%2FPxUzFMXhzjQJ,

the trend towards managed VMs worries me a bit. For us,
zero-configuration/no-maintenance is not just another feature of App
Engine, it is one of the most important ones! We want to write our
programs
and then keep them running for years (5+) without having to do *anything*.
Some of our apps are running like this for years now, and I want to ensure
that this stays possible in the future.

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-23 Thread 'Chris Ramsdale' via Google App Engine

yes, the goal is to get App Engine Managed VMs (v2) to a state where they
are ideal for frontend serving. couple of questions for you:

-- Chris

On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Aleem Mawani al...@streak.com wrote:

If this is true, and you are targeting it to serve front end traffic, does
that mean we'll be able to deploy Managed VMs to our default modules,
perform traffic splitting, access the logging api's and realtime api's,
etc? These are the things that have been traditionally missing from managed
vms.

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 10:33:46 AM UTC-7, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com wrote:

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5 years,
so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so let me
chime in a bit:

On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem,
with the consequence that is very easy to choose the wrong solution. There
is actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions can
result in an order of magnitude difference in costs/latency/complexity etc.
I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every
property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone tries
to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much better
fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up
disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting out
on GCP seems very important.

I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It
doesn't need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3, Java
8, SSL etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list
somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

Now back to App Engine:

Like I said in my post on the other thread
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/forum/?place=msg%2Fgoogle-appengine%2FqTyc2E-0IXc%2FPxUzFMXhzjQJ,
the trend towards managed VMs worries me a bit. For us,
zero-configuration/no-maintenance is not just another feature of App
Engine, it is one of the most important ones! We want to write our programs
and then keep them running for years (5+) without having to do *anything*.
Some of our apps are running like this for years now, and I want to ensure
that this stays possible in the future.

Glad to see the Docker fad go, but please don't replace it with
something where I need to choose my technology stack in some way. Just
provide a set of stable APIs instead so we can consider everything else an
implementation detail for App Engine to worry about :)

exactly. if anything, we're going to make those same APIs available from
other compute environments (e.g. Compute Engine and Container Engine).

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:31:47 AM UTC+2, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Vinny P vinn...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-22 Thread Vinny P

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

*Managed VMs:* The development toolchain for Managed VMs can be a bit
finicky. To be quite honest I have no idea how I got Managed VMs working on
my laptop. Streamlining this would be a huge benefit to me, and probably a
lot of first-timers. If you can convince one of the online IDE services to
simplify creating Managed VM GAE apps, that would be super.

For smaller or toy apps within Managed VMs: I shouldn't need to care about
the Docker container running the application; I should be able to create an
application using just Eclipse + Google Plugin, then be able to deploy
straight to a Managed VM runtime *without* the intermediate step of having
gcloud create and store a dockerfile
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/tutorial/step2#dockerfile
.

*Firebase:* I'm glad that Google bought up Firebase - they have a lot of
great ideas and a well-designed API. I'd like to see Firebase with the
ability to use the Datastore and Cloud SQL directly, not just the regular
Firebase DB. This would help with syncing information with server side
systems.

*Stack Overflow:* IMO, the moderators at SO go overboard when locking
questions. I often find interesting SO pages when I'm searching around,
only to visit the page and find that the question is locked or that someone
has deleted the page outright. At least with the mailing list I have an
archive of all past questions and answers in my email account. I don't know
how you plan on using SO going forward, but I would appreciate minimizing
any occurrences of locked/deleted questions.

Thanks

P.S. When you're giving out the support vouchers, please skip me. There are
a number of far more deserving people in this thread.

-
-Vinny P
Technology Media Consultant
Chicago, IL

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi,

My name is Katie, and I am on the Google Cloud Platform technical support
http://cloud.google.com/support team.

This message is to Google Cloud Platform community members, especially if
you are newer to GCP. I would like to know what our team can do to help you
have a better and more enjoyable experience during the first days on GCP.

Did you need technical support? If so, I’d like to hear all about it.

I’d also like to know:

What did you find most difficult about the first-time user experience?
-

Where did you get stuck?

Please reply to the group with your answers or any ideas you have on how
the technical support team can help new customers get familiar with GCP.

And as a thank you for the great ideas, we will be giving away support
coupons worth $450 (equivalent to 3 months of silver support) to 5 lucky
community members who post a response. Please make sure to reply before
April 22nd.

Thanks for your insights, and cloud on!

Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-22 Thread 'Chris Ramsdale' via Google App Engine

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Vinny P vinny...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

*Managed VMs:* The development toolchain for Managed VMs can be a bit
finicky. To be quite honest I have no idea how I got Managed VMs working on
my laptop. Streamlining this would be a huge benefit to me, and probably a
lot of first-timers. If you can convince one of the online IDE services to
simplify creating Managed VM GAE apps, that would be super.

For smaller or toy apps within Managed VMs: I shouldn't need to care about
the Docker container running the application; I should be able to create an
application using just Eclipse + Google Plugin, then be able to deploy
straight to a Managed VM runtime *without* the intermediate step of
having gcloud create and store a dockerfile
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/tutorial/step2#dockerfile
.

We're removing the Docker toolchain from the mix and will be surfacing a
hosted build service that handles this on your behalf. Their toolchain is
simply unstable.

They have a great Dev UX and we're working to further integrate them with
Google Cloud Platform.

Excellent feedback, and we'll discuss this internally.

Thanks

P.S. When you're giving out the support vouchers, please skip me. There
are a number of far more deserving people in this thread.

-
-Vinny P
Technology Media Consultant
Chicago, IL

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi,

My name is Katie, and I am on the Google Cloud Platform technical support
http://cloud.google.com/support team.

Did you need technical support? If so, I’d like to hear all about it.

I’d also like to know:

What did you find most difficult about the first-time user experience?
-

Where did you get stuck?

Please reply to the group with your answers or any ideas you have on how
the technical support team can help new customers get familiar with GCP.

Thanks for your insights, and cloud on!

Katie

--
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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-22 Thread 'Chris Ramsdale' via Google App Engine

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 2:21 AM, troberti tij...@firigames.com wrote:

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5 years,
so not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so let me
chime in a bit:

On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem,
with the consequence that is very easy to choose the wrong solution. There
is actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions can
result in an order of magnitude difference in costs/latency/complexity etc.
I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every
property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone tries
to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much better
fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up
disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting out
on GCP seems very important.

I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It doesn't
need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3, Java 8, SSL
etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list
somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

Now back to App Engine:

exactly. if anything, we're going to make those same APIs available from
other compute environments (e.g. Compute Engine and Container Engine).

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:31:47 AM UTC+2, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Vinny P vinn...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

*Managed VMs:* The development toolchain for Managed VMs can be a bit
finicky. To be quite honest I have no idea how I got Managed VMs working on
my laptop. Streamlining this would be a huge benefit to me, and probably a
lot of first-timers. If you can convince one of the online IDE services to
simplify creating Managed VM GAE apps, that would be super.

For smaller or toy apps within Managed VMs: I shouldn't need to care
about the Docker container running the application; I should be able to
create an application using just Eclipse + Google Plugin, then be able to
deploy straight to a Managed VM runtime *without* the intermediate step
of having gcloud create and store a dockerfile
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/tutorial/step2#dockerfile
.

We're removing the Docker toolchain from the mix and will be surfacing a
hosted build service that handles this on your behalf. Their toolchain is
simply unstable.

*Firebase:* I'm glad that Google bought up Firebase - they have a lot
of great ideas and a well-designed API. I'd like to see Firebase with the
ability to use the Datastore and Cloud SQL directly, not just the regular
Firebase DB. This would help with syncing information with server side
systems.

They have a great Dev UX and we're working to further integrate them with
Google Cloud Platform.

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-22 Thread troberti

What a flurry of activity. :) Great to see.

I have been using GCP( App Engine + BigQuery) in total for over 5 years, so
not new, but I have seen plenty of new users make mistakes so let me chime
in a bit:

On App Engine (and GCP) there are a lot of ways to approach a problem, with
the consequence that is very easy to choose the wrong solution. There is
actually a rather steep learning curve to just know what is available.

This is a problem, because the differences between various solutions can
result in an order of magnitude difference in costs/latency/complexity etc.
I stopped counting the amount of times I have seen models with every
property indexed, resulting in huge datastore costs. Or where someone tries
to put tons of data in the Datastore while BigQuery would be a much better
fit for the problem. Every time this happens, the new user ends up
disappointed. So guiding new users in the right direction when starting out
on GCP seems very important.

I agree with a lot in Karl's post, and especially the Roadmap. It doesn't
need to be about features, but big ticket items like Python 3, Java 8, SSL
etc should be communicated. It doesn't have to be an explicit list
somewhere, just a PM chiming in regularly should be good enough.

Now back to App Engine:

Like I said in my post on the other thread
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/forum/?place=msg%2Fgoogle-appengine%2FqTyc2E-0IXc%2FPxUzFMXhzjQJ,

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:31:47 AM UTC+2, Chris Ramsdale wrote:

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:22 PM, Vinny P vinn...@gmail.com javascript:
wrote:

Hi Katie,

I think Karl's post hit a home run and I'm happy to see the positive
response to his post. Let me just tack on a few items:

*Managed VMs:* The development toolchain for Managed VMs can be a bit
finicky. To be quite honest I have no idea how I got Managed VMs working on
my laptop. Streamlining this would be a huge benefit to me, and probably a
lot of first-timers. If you can convince one of the online IDE services to
simplify creating Managed VM GAE apps, that would be super.

For smaller or toy apps within Managed VMs: I shouldn't need to care
about the Docker container running the application; I should be able to
create an application using just Eclipse + Google Plugin, then be able to
deploy straight to a Managed VM runtime *without* the intermediate step
of having gcloud create and store a dockerfile
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/docs/managed-vms/tutorial/step2#dockerfile
.

We're removing the Docker toolchain from the mix and will be surfacing a
hosted build service that handles this on your behalf. Their toolchain is
simply unstable.

They have a great Dev UX and we're working to further integrate them with
Google Cloud Platform.

Excellent feedback, and we'll discuss this internally.

Thanks

P.S. When you're giving out the support vouchers, please skip me. There
are a number of far more deserving people in this thread.

-
-Vinny P
Technology Media Consultant
Chicago, IL

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrich...@google.com javascript: wrote:

Hi,

My name is Katie, and I am on the Google Cloud Platform technical
support http://cloud.google.com/support team.

This message is to Google Cloud Platform community members, especially
if you are newer to GCP. I would like to know what our team can do to help
you have a better and more enjoyable

Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-20 Thread Jesse Scherer (Google Cloud Support)

Hi,

I'm another one of the Support team members working on our community
efforts. A lot of Karl's random thoughts and complaints ring true for me.

Right this minute, we're trying to sharpen the blunt instrument
http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/156689/google-is-sending-people-to-stack-overflow-with-a-blunt-instrument

with which we send people to Stack Overflow. I think this will address some
of the noise on this group and help new users get answers on Stack
Exchange. Further out we're looking at a few ways to make Stack Exchange a more
reliable place
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/google-translate-api/kickstarter/google-translate-api/0R1mYxNIBDc/gMUyCRufoLIJ

to get answers.

I will follow up here in one week with a summary of what is going on with
those Stack Exchange changes. I hope you'll keep the feedback coming until
then.

Regards,
Jesse

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:59:14 AM UTC-4, Brad Abrams wrote:

Karl -- thanks for your feedback! Rest assured we are absolutely
listening. Responses to this thread have been forwarded to many different
teams within cloud and have caused lots of healthy discussion. Your
feedback is greatly appreciated.

I will compile as many of the responses as I can and get back to this
group... But please do keep the feedback coming!

..brad

Brad Abrams
Group Product Manager
Google Cloud Platform

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Karl MacMillan k...@rakkoon.com wrote:

Katie,

I feel compelled to point out that how this discussion going is a good
example of some of the things that I - and it seems others - are frustrated
about. You’ve asked for and received concrete feedback. Yet we’ve received
no answers or discussion back from Google engineers. At least a simple
acknowledgement of the _specific_ issues we’ve raised from someone with
some knowledge would be helpful. Otherwise how am I to know that you
bringing the “feedback to the appropriate team members” is anything more
than them receiving an email that they’ll simply delete?

Look at this way - we’ve invested and in many cases bet our businesses on
GCP. And especially with App Engine, this is very much an investment in an
ecosystem that you’ve created that’s largely separate from the rest of the
industry. It’s hard to have confidence in that bet given the almost total
lack of public engagement from Google to help make this a vibrant ecosystem.

Karl

On Apr 16, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi Karl,

You've taken some extra time and extra care to put this feedback together
-- thank you! It's incredibly helpful; this is exactly what we need in
order to better serve our users and the cloud computing community.

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is,
we'd like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd
like to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-20 Thread Karl MacMillan

Katie,

I feel compelled to point out that how this discussion going is a good example
of some of the things that I - and it seems others - are frustrated about.
You’ve asked for and received concrete feedback. Yet we’ve received no answers
or discussion back from Google engineers. At least a simple acknowledgement of
the _specific_ issues we’ve raised from someone with some knowledge would be
helpful. Otherwise how am I to know that you bringing the “feedback to the
appropriate team members” is anything more than them receiving an email that
they’ll simply delete?

Look at this way - we’ve invested and in many cases bet our businesses on GCP.
And especially with App Engine, this is very much an investment in an ecosystem
that you’ve created that’s largely separate from the rest of the industry. It’s
hard to have confidence in that bet given the almost total lack of public
engagement from Google to help make this a vibrant ecosystem.

Karl

On Apr 16, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi Karl,

You've taken some extra time and extra care to put this feedback together --
thank you! It's incredibly helpful; this is exactly what we need in order to
better serve our users and the cloud computing community.

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is, we'd
like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd like
to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-20 Thread 'Brad Abrams' via Google App Engine

I will compile as many of the responses as I can and get back to this
group... But please do keep the feedback coming!

..brad

Brad Abrams
Group Product Manager
Google Cloud Platform

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Karl MacMillan k...@rakkoon.com wrote:

Katie,

Karl

On Apr 16, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi Karl,

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is,
we'd like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd
like to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-17 Thread Joshua Smith

I’m with Karl that stack overflow is a terrible approach to customer support.

Here’s a clue: Look around google and see how other groups provide direct
support to users. Any of them using SO? Nope.

If you are going to choose one to copy, choose Chromium. By far the best user
support experiences I’ve ever had with google have been with Chromium. The
developers read the forums and they fix things and they help find workarounds.

-Joshua

On Apr 16, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)
kmrichard...@google.com wrote:

Hi Karl,

You've taken some extra time and extra care to put this feedback together --
thank you! It's incredibly helpful; this is exactly what we need in order to
better serve our users and the cloud computing community.

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is, we'd
like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd like
to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-17 Thread Iron Mountain Foundry

Yes, +1 for Karl's feedback! Please treat this like a professional
product, and don't treat us like beta testers. We want to rely on GCP but
it still feels like a collection of services hacked together. We want
better documentation, examples and more mainstream tools, and a more
polished interface.

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 2:50:15 PM UTC-7, Katie Ball (Google Cloud
Support) wrote:

Hi Karl,

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is,
we'd like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd
like to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-16 Thread Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)

Hi Karl,

You've taken some extra time and extra care to put this feedback together 
-- thank you! It's incredibly helpful; this is exactly what we need in 
order to better serve our users and the cloud computing community. 

I've already taken your feedback to the appropriate team members to start 
improving things as suggested in your post.

Is there anything that you are currently struggling with? If there is, we'd 
like to offer our help as a thank you.

To our GCP community members: do you have any additional feedback you'd 
like to send our way? Any +1's to Karl's points? We'd love to hear from you!

Thanks again,
Katie

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[google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-15 Thread Katie Ball (Google Cloud Support)

Hi,

My name is Katie, and I am on the Google Cloud Platform technical support
http://cloud.google.com/support team.

Did you need technical support? If so, I’d like to hear all about it.

I’d also like to know:

What did you find most difficult about the first-time user experience?
-

Where did you get stuck?

Please reply to the group with your answers or any ideas you have on how
the technical support team can help new customers get familiar with GCP.

Thanks for your insights, and cloud on!

Katie

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Re: [google-appengine] Google Cloud Platform wants to hear from you

2015-04-15 Thread Karl MacMillan

  
  Katie,


Thanks for asking the question.


I’ve been using GCP for about 6 months now. I found the tutorial material and 
reference documentation to range from pretty good to good enough - there are a 
few rough points, but nothing that really bothered me. So I didn’t get stuck 
much in the early days.


Some things that could be smoother (this is all python):


1. Default way to handle 3rd party dependencies in an app - there are options 
and they work ok, but this is so common it would be nice to have an officially 
supported method. Especially since the common ones break on managed VMs because 
you don’t support appengine_config.py there.


2. Webapp2 - it’s OK, but definitely not great. From the outside there doesn’t 
seem to be a strong reason to be using something that has not gained broader 
traction when supporting something like Flask shouldn’t be hard. That would 
gain a much broader ecosystem rather than the very narrow, App Engine focused 
ecosystem around webapp2.


3. Cloud Storage - I could not find a quick and nice way to securely expose 
native links from cloud storage to clients via a REST API without having to 
have the clients reauth to cloud storage. So I’m just pulling from cloud 
storage on the backend, doing my own authorization, and serving them via my own 
REST API. A hack that I’ll get rid of eventually, but I didn’t want to fiddle 
anymore. This seems like a common use case to me, but who knows.


4. Cloud Endpoints - the biggest problem I had in early days was cloud 
endpoints. I have what I feel is a really common use case - I just need to do 
some CRUD operations on datastore entities using a REST API. I looked at 
enpoints and it looked like exactly what I needed. But then I saw I needed to 
largely duplicate my data model in NDB and Cloud Endpoints. Except there is 
this open source library that claims to connect them together 
(http://endpoints-proto-datastore.appspot.com), but it’s quirky, has quirky 
docs, and is kinda, sorta supported by Google. And then what’s with the 
assumption that these APIs will accept and return the same data types 
(seriously - who does that by default)? And then there was the tooling to 
generate client libraries that’s - honestly - just not great. Eventually the 
CORBA flashbacks got bad enough that I just completely abandoned cloud 
endpoints in favor of rolling it myself. For me, cloud endpoints definitely 
created _way_ more problems than it solved.



5. User service - when evaluating options things like the User services popped 
out to me. I thought, great, I’ll use a PaaS and things like user auth will be 
sanely handled. Except that it is so limited as to not be viable at all for a 
public product.


Beyond the beginner issues, I think there is a real problem once you move 
towards creating real apps. There is a need for more in-depth documentation of 
designing apps effectively to use the platform. Things like best practices 
around data modeling in the datastore (e.g., when to de-normalize and how to 
handle data updates once you do). There is some of this (e.g., 
https://cloud.google.com/appengine/articles/modeling), but it is typically 
out-of-date and there is not really enough of it. For better or worse, there is 
not a big network of bloggers handling these topics like there are for open 
source tools like rails, postgresq, etc.


The biggest beginner problem I see right now is the architectural options 
around App Engine, Managed VMs, and GCE. On paper you guys have a nice blend of 
offerings that can allow developers to choose the right amount of control that 
they want / need. The reality, though, is that there are some hard choices to 
be made because of inconsistencies around what services are available on the 
different options and how to effectively wire together the components. A 
concrete example for me: I need to use numpy and some other non-pure python 
code in some background processing, so I needed to move off of App Engine for 
that work. I wasted quite a bit of time figuring out how / whether I could use 
the Datastore (via ndb) and task queues on the different options (including 
auth, network architecture, and scaling). None of it is rocket science, but I 
felt like I was inventing things when I knew that others had already come up 
with effective strategies. For me - the ideal situation would be if you just 
supported the same services through the same APIs everywhere, so I hope that is 
where you were headed.


Other random thoughts / complaints:


1. GCP Roadmap - it would be nice to have some nice, clear roadmap on where 
things are headed. Right now, I restrict myself to only what is available and 
supported right now because I have no idea where you guys are headed.


2. Community - there is not a supportive / coherent community around GCP. 
Coming from a largely open source background this gives me a lot of culture 
shock. It would be great if there was at least a set of your engineers out 
engaging

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