Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Slava Pankov]

@Ivan Markov For some reason I cannot edit my previous message :-( Just 
want to clarify that I'm extremely grateful for your SDBG tool, it's 
beautiful software, and it's really sad to hear that you have some doubts 
about it.

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 7:35:47 PM UTC-7, Slava Pankov wrote:
>
> @Ivan Markov Please invest some time to SDBG, it's great tool, very 
> convenient. Despite of Chrome dev.tools, I still prefer SDBG as more 
> natural for java developer.
>
> On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 6:02:43 AM UTC-7, Ivan Markov wrote:
>>
>> Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working 
>> on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place? 
>> For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest 
>> in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly 
>> zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort, 
>> which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS 
>> libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...
>>
>> Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top of 
>> this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to be a 
>> roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.
>>
>> ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016, 
>> remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner 
>> Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
>> "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret 
>> - J2CL."
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>>>
>>> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT 
>>> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts. 
>>> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This 
>>> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something 
>>> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job. 
>>>
>>> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL, 
>>> I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator 
>>> with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample 
>>> application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it 
>>> works with J2CL. 
>>>
>>> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What 
>>> was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>>>
>>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Slava Pankov]

@Ivan Markov Please invest some time to SDBG, it's great tool, very 
convenient. Despite of Chrome dev.tools, I still prefer SDBG as more 
natural for java developer.

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 6:02:43 AM UTC-7, Ivan Markov wrote:
>
> Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working 
> on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place? 
> For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest 
> in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly 
> zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort, 
> which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS 
> libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...
>
> Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top of 
> this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to be a 
> roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.
>
> ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016, 
> remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner 
> Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
> "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret - 
> J2CL."
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>>
>> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT 
>> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts. 
>> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This 
>> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something 
>> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job. 
>>
>> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL, 
>> I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator 
>> with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample 
>> application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it 
>> works with J2CL. 
>>
>> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What 
>> was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>>
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

J2CL is yet-to-be open-sourced Google product, I'll post a separate update
on the state but that's why it wasn't developed openly.

GWT, which is community owned; there is nothing done in secrecy and people
in the community actively working on GWT 3.

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:58 AM Norbert Sándor 
wrote:

> > it would be nice to have J2CL released separately as soon as it is ready
>
> I still don't get why the development of J2CL / GWT 3 cannot be done
> openly like any other open source project.
> Why this secrecy is necessary.
>
> This kind of project management type is very unusual in case of open
> source projects
> It will make many people to stay away from the project and to switch to
> (even worse) alternatives :(
>
> --
> Norbi
>
> On Saturday, 9 June 2018 22:47:48 UTC+2, Ming-Yee Iu wrote:
>>
>> Wow! It's great to see all that progress being made on GWT 3. That's a
>> lot more backwards compatibility than I was expecting.
>>
>> Still, it would be nice to have J2CL released separately as soon as it is
>> ready to do so because
>>
>>1. Based on past experience, it will take 1-2 years or more before
>>GWT 3 is released
>>2. J2CL is useful independent of GWT 3. Just recently, I wanted to
>>package up some Java code as node.js NPM packages for others to use, but
>>doing that really requires something like J2CL instead of GWT
>>3. It's good to have some time for people to develop best practices
>>for how J2CL code can be mixed with JS. Google's JS code style is very
>>clean, well-typed, and Java-like, so it will naturally work well with 
>> J2CL.
>>Much real-world JS code is ugly and makes use of horrible JS corner cases
>>and hacks, so it might take a while to figure out best practices for how 
>> to
>>deal with those.
>>
>> --
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> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Ming-Yee Iu]

Wow! It's great to see all that progress being made on GWT 3. That's a lot 
more backwards compatibility than I was expecting.

Still, it would be nice to have J2CL released separately as soon as it is 
ready to do so because

   1. Based on past experience, it will take 1-2 years or more before GWT 3 
   is released
   2. J2CL is useful independent of GWT 3. Just recently, I wanted to 
   package up some Java code as node.js NPM packages for others to use, but 
   doing that really requires something like J2CL instead of GWT
   3. It's good to have some time for people to develop best practices for 
   how J2CL code can be mixed with JS. Google's JS code style is very clean, 
   well-typed, and Java-like, so it will naturally work well with J2CL. Much 
   real-world JS code is ugly and makes use of horrible JS corner cases and 
   hacks, so it might take a while to figure out best practices for how to 
   deal with those.
   

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

Please send your member requests with some background information on why
you need early access.

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 3:08 PM Julien Dramaix 
wrote:

> I changed the permission settings. You should now be able to apply for
> membership at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/j2cl-external
>
> -Julien
>
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:50 PM Alberto Mancini 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Goktug,
>> thanks a lot for the opportunity.
>> Actually seems that the address j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com does not
>> exist.
>>  mailer-dae...@google.com 
>> We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact
>> (j2cl-external) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post
>> messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post:
>>
>>  * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly.
>>  * The owner of the group may have removed this group.
>>  * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post.
>>  * This group may not be open to posting.
>> - -
>>
>> It is just me, I'm not autrorized or actually the address is spelled
>> incorrectly?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>Alberto.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:51 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
>> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all.
>>>
>>> Sorry for the delays in getting J2CL work for opensource. Some of the
>>> delays were out of our control but this is something we actively working on
>>> in the last few months and having progress. In the meantime plenty of
>>> active GWT contributors already has access to it for a long time and
>>> working on getting GWT 3 ready. Also a while back, I said "if there are
>>> more people who needs access to J2CL for GWT 3 porting, we can give them
>>> access" but it is not usable for average developer.
>>>
>>> If you think you need earlier access to J2CL in as-is state (which
>>> partially builds with plenty of workarounds), pls send a message to
>>> j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com; and pls make your case (e.g. porting X
>>> from GWT 2 SDK to GWT 3) and we will give access. However we cannot help
>>> you a lot at the moment when you hit problems (you will) so pls set your
>>> expectations accordingly.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:02 AM Ivan Markov 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people
 working on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the
 first place? For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much
 time I invest in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation
 is exactly zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java
 effort, which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS
 libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...

 Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top
 of this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to
 be a roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.

 ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of
 2016, remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with
 Learner Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
 "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece
 secret - J2CL."


 On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>
> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT
> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts.
> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. 
> This
> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see 
> something
> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job.
>
> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 /
> J2CL, I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the
> generator with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created
> a sample application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. 
> And
> yes, it works with J2CL.
>
> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work.
> What was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>
 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "GWT Contributors" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
 an email to
 google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Julien Dramaix]

I changed the permission settings. You should now be able to apply for
membership at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/j2cl-external

-Julien

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:50 PM Alberto Mancini  wrote:

> Hello Goktug,
> thanks a lot for the opportunity.
> Actually seems that the address j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com does not
> exist.
>  mailer-dae...@google.com 
> We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact
> (j2cl-external) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post
> messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post:
>
>  * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly.
>  * The owner of the group may have removed this group.
>  * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post.
>  * This group may not be open to posting.
> - -
>
> It is just me, I'm not autrorized or actually the address is spelled
> incorrectly?
>
> Thanks,
>Alberto.
>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:51 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
> google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all.
>>
>> Sorry for the delays in getting J2CL work for opensource. Some of the
>> delays were out of our control but this is something we actively working on
>> in the last few months and having progress. In the meantime plenty of
>> active GWT contributors already has access to it for a long time and
>> working on getting GWT 3 ready. Also a while back, I said "if there are
>> more people who needs access to J2CL for GWT 3 porting, we can give them
>> access" but it is not usable for average developer.
>>
>> If you think you need earlier access to J2CL in as-is state (which
>> partially builds with plenty of workarounds), pls send a message to
>> j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com; and pls make your case (e.g. porting X
>> from GWT 2 SDK to GWT 3) and we will give access. However we cannot help
>> you a lot at the moment when you hit problems (you will) so pls set your
>> expectations accordingly.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:02 AM Ivan Markov 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working
>>> on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place?
>>> For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest
>>> in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly
>>> zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort,
>>> which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS
>>> libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...
>>>
>>> Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top
>>> of this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to
>>> be a roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.
>>>
>>> ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016,
>>> remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner
>>> Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
>>> "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret
>>> - J2CL."
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:

 That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT
 module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts.
 Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This
 is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something
 existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job.

 With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 /
 J2CL, I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the
 generator with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created
 a sample application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And
 yes, it works with J2CL.

 And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What
 was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.

>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "GWT Contributors" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
>>> .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/03d79d23-11e5-423b-9009-d439a569c512%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "GWT Contributors" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Alberto Mancini]

Hello Goktug,
thanks a lot for the opportunity.
Actually seems that the address j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com does not
exist.
 mailer-dae...@google.com 
We're writing to let you know that the group you tried to contact
(j2cl-external) may not exist, or you may not have permission to post
messages to the group. A few more details on why you weren't able to post:

 * You might have spelled or formatted the group name incorrectly.
 * The owner of the group may have removed this group.
 * You may need to join the group before receiving permission to post.
 * This group may not be open to posting.
- -

It is just me, I'm not autrorized or actually the address is spelled
incorrectly?

Thanks,
   Alberto.


On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 11:51 PM 'Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors <
google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
>
> Sorry for the delays in getting J2CL work for opensource. Some of the
> delays were out of our control but this is something we actively working on
> in the last few months and having progress. In the meantime plenty of
> active GWT contributors already has access to it for a long time and
> working on getting GWT 3 ready. Also a while back, I said "if there are
> more people who needs access to J2CL for GWT 3 porting, we can give them
> access" but it is not usable for average developer.
>
> If you think you need earlier access to J2CL in as-is state (which
> partially builds with plenty of workarounds), pls send a message to
> j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com; and pls make your case (e.g. porting X
> from GWT 2 SDK to GWT 3) and we will give access. However we cannot help
> you a lot at the moment when you hit problems (you will) so pls set your
> expectations accordingly.
>
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:02 AM Ivan Markov  wrote:
>
>> Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working
>> on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place?
>> For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest
>> in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly
>> zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort,
>> which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS
>> libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...
>>
>> Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top of
>> this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to be a
>> roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.
>>
>> ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016,
>> remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner
>> Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
>> "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret
>> - J2CL."
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>>>
>>> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT
>>> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts.
>>> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This
>>> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something
>>> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job.
>>>
>>> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL,
>>> I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator
>>> with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample
>>> application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it
>>> works with J2CL.
>>>
>>> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What
>>> was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "GWT Contributors" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/03d79d23-11e5-423b-9009-d439a569c512%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "GWT Contributors" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
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> 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

['Goktug Gokdogan' via GWT Contributors]

Hi all.

Sorry for the delays in getting J2CL work for opensource. Some of the
delays were out of our control but this is something we actively working on
in the last few months and having progress. In the meantime plenty of
active GWT contributors already has access to it for a long time and
working on getting GWT 3 ready. Also a while back, I said "if there are
more people who needs access to J2CL for GWT 3 porting, we can give them
access" but it is not usable for average developer.

If you think you need earlier access to J2CL in as-is state (which
partially builds with plenty of workarounds), pls send a message to
j2cl-exter...@googlegroups.com; and pls make your case (e.g. porting X from
GWT 2 SDK to GWT 3) and we will give access. However we cannot help you a
lot at the moment when you hit problems (you will) so pls set your
expectations accordingly.


On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:02 AM Ivan Markov  wrote:

> Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working
> on porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place?
> For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest
> in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly
> zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort,
> which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS
> libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...
>
> Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top of
> this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to be a
> roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.
>
> ... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016,
> remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner
> Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
> "1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret -
> J2CL."
>
>
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>>
>> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT
>> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts.
>> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This
>> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something
>> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job.
>>
>> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL,
>> I was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator
>> with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample
>> application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it
>> works with J2CL.
>>
>> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What
>> was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>>
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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Ivan Markov]

Don't you think there could've been 2x or even 3x as much people working on 
porting GWT2 stuff over to J2CL if J2CL was released in the first place? 
For one, releasing J2CL could've made me reconsider how much time I invest 
in my own SDBG pet project. Which - at the current situation is exactly 
zero. Or whether to invest time in the abandoned typescript2java effort, 
which would bring seamless JSInterop with gazillions of .d.ts'd JS 
libraries without the need to manually code JSInterop bindings...

Say what you want, but 3 months since my original rant that at the top of 
this thread, the "basic Bazel building issues" of Goktug seem still to be a 
roadblock and J2CL is still nowhere to be seen.

... and then we had Daniel planning to write a book on J2CL end of 2016, 
remember? Come on guys, it is Q3 2018 now... I might now agree with Learner 
Evermore on his points 2) to 5), but with point 1) he nailed it:
"1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret - 
J2CL."


On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 6:07:25 PM UTC+3, Frank Hossfeld wrote:
>
> That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT 
> module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts. 
> Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This 
> is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something 
> existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job. 
>
> With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL, I 
> was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator 
> with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample 
> application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it 
> works with J2CL. 
>
> And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What 
> was the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.
>

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

['Frank Hossfeld' via GWT Contributors]

That's not really true. There are a lot of people working on the GWT 
module, getting them out of GWT and moving them to standalone artifacts. 
Doing that, they replace JSNI with JsInterop, replace generators, etc. This 
is all done, to get GWT 2 ready for GWT 3. And if you want to see something 
existing in GWT 3, you can ask vertispan to do the job. 

With the knowledge about the things, that will change with GWT 3 / J2CL, I 
was able to make mvp4g ready for GWT 3 / J2CL. I replaced the generator 
with APT and remove the dependency to any GWT classes. I created a sample 
application based on the new version (mvp4g2) and Elemental 2. And yes, it 
works with J2CL. 

And, keep in mind, applications written in GWT in 2010 still work. What was 
the favorite JS framework at that time? I don't remember.

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Jens]

>
>1. The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece 
>secret - J2CL.
>
> These days it is already available to a few people who take their spare 
time to make it useable by the general public. 



>1. The past and current stated direction devolves the product, does 
>not evolve it. Good, differentiating features aren't enhanced or even 
>replaced but just plain eliminated under the premise that select few NOW 
>(but not all) think they are bad but are really only hard to do, which is 
>what makes them useful (say GWT RPC, debugging, widgets). I could have 
>helped with that. No more, though.
>
> GWT 3 compatible UiBinder already exists, GWT 3 compatible GWT RPC is 
being worked on, Widgets will be GWT 3 compatible, other code is already 
GWT 3 compatible or is being worked on. There are quite some new people who 
never really contributed to GWT itself before who now step up and invest 
time in migrating existing GWT SDK code to JsInterop / APT. So you can 
still help if you want to.

See:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1b1D9fEqRh5lZ8cqMJtYoc_25rfTRvsuJkTtS2vjgi3o/edit#gid=0
https://ci.vertispan.com
   


>1. Inability to plan proper migration to 3.x - "just don't use 
>anything useful from previous versions" obviously doesn't cut it.
>
> People were a bit too scary I think. Obviously a migration plan must be 
planned and can only be planned if you have the tools like JsInterop, 
elemental2, J2CL to do so. As you see above it does not look that scary 
anymore. A bunch of people are working on migrating GWT code, even the 
tough ones like GWT-RPC / UiBinder (though they require some changes in 
apps because of APT).
 
Current plan is that you must get rid of any deprecated GWT APIs in your 
app as these will finally be deleted. Then you pull in the new libraries 
and update your imports. Finally you have to apply (hopefully small) code 
changes in your app to meet the "no GWT.create(), no JSNI" requirement.


 

> If and when it comes back, it will be a totally new contender (not 
> compatible with anything there ever was as is) to reevaluate, with a huge 
> stain in its history. 
>

A pretty appealing contender. 


-- J.

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Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Learner Evermore]

  I no longer work for the company where this still is an issue. I now work for another where they are trying to get rid of the little GWT 1.x they have and move on.I love the basic premise of GWT - it is after all what I personally wanted to develop but didn't have the time/resources to do back in 2002 ... The point in using a language (any language) for some work is because it offers more advantages than disadvantages for the specific use case. We all know what advantage Java as a language has over _javascript_, no need to go there. That is highly, but far from enough to outweigh trouble of still having to know _javascript_ details and how to interoperate with libraries NOT built with Java/GWT in mind For me, the greatest benefit is the ability to share code with a properly written server (and, no, I don't consider node.js a contender - it is a runaway joke for merely dynamic web sites needing good SEO). Beyond just sharing the code it is also about the ability to communicate smart objects with the server and not have to deal with marshalling/unmarshalling dumb DTOs that themselves then need extra plumbing code to be copied to/from the "actually useful" objects. DTOs are a menace (unfortunately often needed due to how the rest of the system is designed) and impede on / break OOP and/or proper componentization.GWT addressed all these. However, it is not evolving in a "mature" slow fashion. The problems are:The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret - J2CL.The past and current stated direction devolves the product, does not evolve it. Good, differentiating features aren't enhanced or even replaced but just plain eliminated under the premise that select few NOW (but not all) think they are bad but are really only hard to do, which is what makes them useful (say GWT RPC, debugging, widgets). I could have helped with that. No more, though.The surrounding ecosystem has crumbled. One big example: Sencha GXT. Inability to plan proper migration to 3.x - "just don't use anything useful from previous versions" obviously doesn't cut it.Constant delays, broken promises all  scream "dead priduct, stay away"I am now left feeling that GWT 2.x is still the best AVAILABLE thing out there but it is dead and dangerous to start anything with as things will evolve away from it. The same goes for other Google "children" as they too have been broken horribly over time. I hate the idea of a large JS/TS application but I am cornered into having to, as GWT does not really exist as an option. The only sort of interesting alternative is TeaVM but it is in very early and risky stages, with one guy developing it only If and when it comes back, it will be a totally new contender (not compatible with anything there ever was as is) to reevaluate, with a huge stain in its history. Sad,Learner Evermore   From: igna...@bacamt.comSent: May 30, 2018 6:32 AMTo: google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.comReply to: google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL  Being slow but mature is a pretty good thing sometimes. As you said, "today's rapidly changing IT" is crazy rapidly, you start a project in a technology that when the project is production ready it might be that technology considered deprecated already. Java and GWT are all about maturity and useful for kind of classic stable long project development. Some of your arguments can apply to Java itself. But yep, I personally love Kotlin, and other modern cool features. But never confuse those modern tools with the quality or productivity of your project, this is all about your project, management and developers. Java + GWT is more than enough to be able to develop competitive projects that share Java source code between servers and clients. Curious note that said something like "java is about maturity and not about cutting-edge features": https://youtu.be/Zzs4zEkGbiE?t=39m11sOn Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:49 AM Norbert Sándor <sandor.norb...@erinors.com> wrote:I have been an  enthusiastic user of GWT for many years but I don't use it anymore and I recommend for everyone not to use it for new projects.(Additionally I think that Google killed GWT like it did with other interesting and useful projects.)Use _javascript_, Kotlin or even Doppio (https://plasma-umass.org/doppio-demo/) - but in today's rapidly changing IT world it is not acceptable for a project to be postponed for years...--NorbiOn Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:48:58 UTC+1, Ivan Markov  wrote:This time I'll bite...J2CL has been - what? - two to three years 

Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Ignacio Baca Moreno-Torres]

Being slow but mature is a pretty good thing sometimes. As you said,
"today's rapidly changing IT" is crazy rapidly, you start a project in a
technology that when the project is production ready it might be that
technology considered deprecated already. Java and GWT are all about
maturity and useful for kind of classic stable long project development.
Some of your arguments can apply to Java itself. But yep, I personally love
Kotlin, and other modern cool features. But never confuse those modern
tools with the quality or productivity of your project, this is all about
your project, management and developers. Java + GWT is more than enough to
be able to develop competitive projects that share Java source code between
servers and clients. Curious note that said something like "java is about
maturity and not about cutting-edge features":
https://youtu.be/Zzs4zEkGbiE?t=39m11s

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:49 AM Norbert Sándor 
wrote:

> I have been an  enthusiastic user of GWT for many years but I don't use
> it anymore and I recommend for everyone not to use it for new projects.
> (Additionally I think that Google killed GWT like it did with other
> interesting and useful projects.)
>
> Use Javascript, Kotlin or even Doppio (
> https://plasma-umass.org/doppio-demo/) - but in today's rapidly changing
> IT world it is not acceptable for a project to be postponed for years...
>
> --
> Norbi
>
> On Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:48:58 UTC+1, Ivan Markov wrote:
>>
>> This time I'll bite...
>>
>> J2CL has been - what? - two to three years in the making - yet, there is
>> nothing released to the public yet (aside from a preview to a few blessed
>> individuals).
>>
>> Before someone follows up again with the usual matra that "it is not
>> production ready yet and it will do more harm than good" or "somebody is
>> porting the GWT widgets to J2CL as without these J2CL would be unusable"
>> let's ask ourselves: *are these statements holding any ground anymore*?
>>
>> Here's a situation which is very likely not typical to just us:
>> We have to - like NOW - start replacing - in our app - all the dying GWT
>> widget-set/RPC legacy with a maintained and more contemporary toolkit
>> (React, Angular2, whatever).
>>
>> (And please let's not argue over whether the GWT widget-set is still an
>> option for any new development. For us it is not. Also let's not argue if
>> coding against JavaScript libs with the existing GWT compiler toolchain is
>> a viable option in the long term - it is obviously not.)
>>
>> The question: shall we scrap GWT altogether and rewrite in JS/TS? Or
>> shall we continue with Java/JSInterop?
>>
>> Now, please enlighten me how we can defend the option of continuing in
>> Java/JSInterop - even in front of ourselves - given that 3 years from the
>> initial announcement - J2CL is still just smoke and mirrors for almost all
>> Google outsiders?  We can't play with it to gain some confidence that it
>> will work for us.. Also what happens if Google changes their mind and
>> decides not to release it - say - due to legal issues? We would be stuck
>> with an all-new Java/JSInterop code still bound to the dying compiler
>> toolchain of GWT. Not a situation anybody wants to end up with, I guess...
>>
>>
>> --
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[gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Relja Pcela]

I would recommend Vaadin instead (of GWT or any JavaScript). If you like 
you can use Kotlin or Scala with it as well.

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[gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Norbert Sándor]

I have been an  enthusiastic user of GWT for many years but I don't use it 
anymore and I recommend for everyone not to use it for new projects.
(Additionally I think that Google killed GWT like it did with other 
interesting and useful projects.)

Use Javascript, Kotlin or even Doppio 
(https://plasma-umass.org/doppio-demo/) - but in today's rapidly changing 
IT world it is not acceptable for a project to be postponed for years...

--
Norbi

On Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:48:58 UTC+1, Ivan Markov wrote:
>
> This time I'll bite...
>
> J2CL has been - what? - two to three years in the making - yet, there is 
> nothing released to the public yet (aside from a preview to a few blessed 
> individuals).
>
> Before someone follows up again with the usual matra that "it is not 
> production ready yet and it will do more harm than good" or "somebody is 
> porting the GWT widgets to J2CL as without these J2CL would be unusable" 
> let's ask ourselves: *are these statements holding any ground anymore*?
>
> Here's a situation which is very likely not typical to just us: 
> We have to - like NOW - start replacing - in our app - all the dying GWT 
> widget-set/RPC legacy with a maintained and more contemporary toolkit 
> (React, Angular2, whatever).
>
> (And please let's not argue over whether the GWT widget-set is still an 
> option for any new development. For us it is not. Also let's not argue if 
> coding against JavaScript libs with the existing GWT compiler toolchain is 
> a viable option in the long term - it is obviously not.)
>
> The question: shall we scrap GWT altogether and rewrite in JS/TS? Or shall 
> we continue with Java/JSInterop?
>
> Now, please enlighten me how we can defend the option of continuing in 
> Java/JSInterop - even in front of ourselves - given that 3 years from the 
> initial announcement - J2CL is still just smoke and mirrors for almost all 
> Google outsiders?  We can't play with it to gain some confidence that it 
> will work for us.. Also what happens if Google changes their mind and 
> decides not to release it - say - due to legal issues? We would be stuck 
> with an all-new Java/JSInterop code still bound to the dying compiler 
> toolchain of GWT. Not a situation anybody wants to end up with, I guess...
>
>
>

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[gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Marko Pesic]

I agree 100% with Ivan, every word he said is true. 

You can also rewrite your UI code to work with Vaadin (8 or 10 soon) and 
all the rest of your code (business logic, persistence, services) can stay 
(almost) the same as it is now in your GWT. Vaadin 10 (Flow) will be ready 
soon, it does not use GWT and it works with webcomponents (written in 
Polymer) that are the future anyway. One day when/if J2CL is ready you will 
most probably have ability to compile (parts or all) your Flow UI code to 
JS. That would probably be possible, but we will see what will happen. With 
Vaadin Flow you have a lot of options how to write you application e.g. you 
have an option to write all your UI code in Polymer if you like.

If you believe in Angular, React or TS future go with that instead. I 
believe that they will all change so much in the future that you will also 
have the same problem you are facing in this moment with GWT.

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[gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Marko Pesic]

While waiting for our moderator (probably from USA) to wake up, here is a 
link with today's news about Vaadin 
10: https://vaadin.com/blog/vaadin-10-beta

It explains what it is so you can decide if this is something that could be 
interesting for you.

Regards,
Marko

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