Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL

[Learner Evermore]

I no longer work for the company where this still is an issue. I now work for another where they are trying to get rid of the little GWT 1.x they have and move on. I love the basic premise of GWT - it is after all what I personally wanted to develop but didn't have the time/resources to do back in 2002 ...  The point in using a language (any language) for some work is because it offers more advantages than disadvantages for the specific use case. We all know what advantage Java as a language has over _javascript_, no need to go there. That is highly, but far from enough to outweigh trouble of still having to know _javascript_ details and how to interoperate with libraries NOT built with Java/GWT in mind  For me, the greatest benefit is the ability to share code with a properly written server (and, no, I don't consider node.js a contender - it is a runaway joke for merely dynamic web sites needing good SEO). Beyond just sharing the code it is also about the ability to communicate smart objects with the server and not have to deal with marshalling/unmarshalling dumb DTOs that themselves then need extra plumbing code to be copied to/from the "actually useful" objects. DTOs are a menace (unfortunately often needed due to how the rest of the system is designed) and impede on / break OOP and/or proper componentization. GWT addressed all these. However, it is not evolving in a "mature" slow fashion. The problems are: The backing company backed off but kept the crucial new piece secret - J2CL. The past and current stated direction devolves the product, does not evolve it. Good, differentiating features aren't enhanced or even replaced but just plain eliminated under the premise that select few NOW (but not all) think they are bad but are really only hard to do, which is what makes them useful (say GWT RPC, debugging, widgets). I could have helped with that. No more, though. The surrounding ecosystem has crumbled. One big example: Sencha GXT.  Inability to plan proper migration to 3.x - "just don't use anything useful from previous versions" obviously doesn't cut it. Constant delays, broken promises all  scream "dead priduct, stay away" I am now left feeling that GWT 2.x is still the best AVAILABLE thing out there but it is dead and dangerous to start anything with as things will evolve away from it. The same goes for other Google "children" as they too have been broken horribly over time. I hate the idea of a large JS/TS application but I am cornered into having to, as GWT does not really exist as an option. The only sort of interesting alternative is TeaVM but it is in very early and risky stages, with one guy developing it only  If and when it comes back, it will be a totally new contender (not compatible with anything there ever was as is) to reevaluate, with a huge stain in its history.  Sad, Learner Evermore From: igna...@bacamt.com Sent: May 30, 2018 6:32 AM To: google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com Reply to: google-web-toolkit-contributors@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [gwt-contrib] Re: The elusive J2CL Being slow but mature is a pretty good thing sometimes. As you said, "today's rapidly changing IT" is crazy rapidly, you start a project in a technology that when the project is production ready it might be that technology considered deprecated already. Java and GWT are all about maturity and useful for kind of classic stable long project development. Some of your arguments can apply to Java itself. But yep, I personally love Kotlin, and other modern cool features. But never confuse those modern tools with the quality or productivity of your project, this is all about your project, management and developers. Java + GWT is more than enough to be able to develop competitive projects that share Java source code between servers and clients. Curious note that said something like "java is about maturity and not about cutting-edge features": https://youtu.be/Zzs4zEkGbiE?t=39m11s On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:49 AM Norbert Sándor <sandor.norb...@erinors.com> wrote: I have been an  enthusiastic user of GWT for many years but I don't use it anymore and I recommend for everyone not to use it for new projects. (Additionally I think that Google killed GWT like it did with other interesting and useful projects.) Use _javascript_, Kotlin or even Doppio (https://plasma-umass.org/doppio-demo/) - but in today's rapidly changing IT world it is not acceptable for a project to be postponed for years... -- Norbi On Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:48:58 UTC+1, Ivan Markov wrote: This time I'll bite... J2CL has been - what? - two to three years in the making - yet, there is nothing released to the public yet (aside from a preview to a few blessed individuals). Before someone follows up again with the usual matra that "it is not production ready yet and it will do more harm than good" or "somebody is porting the GWT widgets to J2CL as without these J2CL would be unusable" let's ask ourselves: are these statements holding any ground anymore? Here's a situation which is very likely not typical to just us:  We have to - like NOW - start replacing - in our app - all the dying GWT widget-set/RPC legacy with a maintained and more contemporary toolkit (React, Angular2, whatever). (And please let's not argue over whether the GWT widget-set is still an option for any new development. For us it is not. Also let's not argue if coding against _javascript_ libs with the existing GWT compiler toolchain is a viable option in the long term - it is obviously not.) The question: shall we scrap GWT altogether and rewrite in JS/TS? Or shall we continue with Java/JSInterop? Now, please enlighten me how we can defend the option of continuing in Java/JSInterop - even in front of ourselves - given that 3 years from the initial announcement - J2CL is still just smoke and mirrors for almost all Google outsiders?  We can't play with it to gain some confidence that it will work for us.. Also what happens if Google changes their mind and decides not to release it - say - due to legal issues? We would be stuck with an all-new Java/JSInterop code still bound to the dying compiler toolchain of GWT. Not a situation anybody wants to end up with, I guess... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "GWT Contributors" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/3700b8a3-57dd-43fb-bcf3-d06603a2b2cb%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "GWT Contributors" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to google-web-toolkit-contributors+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/google-web-toolkit-contributors/CABVWDC6qnKenQZLKDry0xqkH7pDuEy2FuOiyv5U5RzjY6CHW0Q%40mail.gmail.com. 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