Re: [h-cost] Victorian hat terminology
Lena, Names of hats changed alot in the '80s & '90s. Sometimes the latest fashionable name was applied to a different style. (Funny. that still happens today!) I'd have your friend look into store catalogs for the period & place & social milieu she's interested in. Catalogs are useful in that they match up a style name with a picture and a price-point. Here in California, that would probably be Weinstocks of Sacramento (1890s). On the east coast perhaps a middle class Sears catalog (if they sold fashions in '93 and onward) or an uppercrust fashion mag like Harper's Bazaar. You'll know your local London & Oxford shops better than I ever could, so I'll leave you to that. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Lena wrote: > Dear all, > > I was asked by a friend about the correct name for a hat type worn by women > in late 19th century England. And while I do historical costuming, the 19th > century is really not my thing, so I thought I would ask the experts here. > > She described it as a small top hat, bigger and flatter than the miniature > top hats you see in steampunk garb, often swathed in ribbon and tulle. > > Picture examples: > > - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1882estacaoa.jpg, the one on the far > left, though that may be a mutant bonnet. > - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1884myraa.jpg, on the right. That's > bigger and less frouffy (technical term :-) ) than I was thinking of. > - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1881estacaob.jpg , the middle hat, > which makes me think that maybe what I'm seeing is a small bonnet worn on top > of the head? > Is there a common name for this type of hat? Or are there several different > ones depending on minute details in appearance and/or construction, > alternatively no specific name at all? > > With thanks, > Lena (mostly lurking) > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Stumped
I did some research on portraits in 1800’s in North America, and there is one striking one with I think a green dress and white lace sleeves. I know this primitive artist travelled with accessories in his kit, so that may be the reason, but there it is. So sorry, I haven’t time to find the ref, I can’t access my document right now, but I found it just by googling portraits from 1800’s or something like that. They are a wonderful resource for us. Good luck! I have made one in the past with white sleeves to match the chemisette, but wasn’t sure of the history then. Lynn Macintyre ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The White Queen
Yes, Dr. Zhivago is a classic example! And I remember a 1950's movie about Elizabeth that had those pointy bras. Hilarious! S. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of annbw...@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:23 AM To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] The White Queen With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! Not sure of the excuse for the hats. But Edward Maeder, in his book "Hollywood and History," makes the point that hairstyles and makeup are more likely to be contemporary in historical movies than are the costumes themselves. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Marjorie Wilser To: Historical Costume Sent: Wed, Jul 24, 2013 11:05 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] The White Queen Kate, It's funny. . . you could say the same thing about modern productions of Victorian and Georgian fashions. Bareheaded women (and gloveless, too! the horror!) running around outside, neither properly coifed nor hatted. With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! == Marjorie Wilser (hoping very much that we get The White Queen over here. . . someday) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Kate Bunting wrote: > As the list seems very quiet at the moment, I thought I'd ask what UK > members who know about the Middle Ages think of the costumes in "The > White Queen"? (It's a series based on 3 of Philippa Gregory's novels > currently running on the BBC.) > > I know little about mediaeval costume, but my impression is that they > have fallen into the same trap as the designers for "The Tudors" - the > women show too much hair and not enough linen. Only a few older women > wear headdresses. I assume this is supposed to make the leading ladies > more attractive to modern eyes. > > Kate Bunting > Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor. > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The White Queen
With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! Not sure of the excuse for the hats. But Edward Maeder, in his book "Hollywood and History," makes the point that hairstyles and makeup are more likely to be contemporary in historical movies than are the costumes themselves. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Marjorie Wilser To: Historical Costume Sent: Wed, Jul 24, 2013 11:05 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] The White Queen Kate, It's funny. . . you could say the same thing about modern productions of Victorian and Georgian fashions. Bareheaded women (and gloveless, too! the horror!) running around outside, neither properly coifed nor hatted. With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! == Marjorie Wilser (hoping very much that we get The White Queen over here. . . someday) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Kate Bunting wrote: > As the list seems very quiet at the moment, I thought I'd ask what UK > members who know about the Middle Ages think of the costumes in "The > White > Queen"? (It's a series based on 3 of Philippa Gregory's novels > currently > running on the BBC.) > > I know little about mediaeval costume, but my impression is that > they have > fallen into the same trap as the designers for "The Tudors" - the > women > show too much hair and not enough linen. Only a few older women wear > headdresses. I assume this is supposed to make the leading ladies more > attractive to modern eyes. > > Kate Bunting > Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor. > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The White Queen
This is a problem even with re-enactors. In my opinion, nothing spoils the look of an outfit as quickly as modern hair. Renaissance hair was parted in the middle. No bangs. If you have bangs---use hairspray! Sure it doesn't look like "you"that's the point! Sharon C. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Marjorie Wilser Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 8:05 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The White Queen Kate, It's funny. . . you could say the same thing about modern productions of Victorian and Georgian fashions. Bareheaded women (and gloveless, too! the horror!) running around outside, neither properly coifed nor hatted. With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! == Marjorie Wilser (hoping very much that we get The White Queen over here. . . someday) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Kate Bunting wrote: > As the list seems very quiet at the moment, I thought I'd ask what UK > members who know about the Middle Ages think of the costumes in "The > White Queen"? (It's a series based on 3 of Philippa Gregory's novels > currently running on the BBC.) > > I know little about mediaeval costume, but my impression is that they > have fallen into the same trap as the designers for "The Tudors" - the > women show too much hair and not enough linen. Only a few older women > wear headdresses. I assume this is supposed to make the leading ladies > more attractive to modern eyes. > > Kate Bunting > Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor. > ___ > h-costume mailing list > h-costume@mail.indra.com > http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The White Queen
Kate, It's funny. . . you could say the same thing about modern productions of Victorian and Georgian fashions. Bareheaded women (and gloveless, too! the horror!) running around outside, neither properly coifed nor hatted. With so much emphasis on getting the clothing right, why not the hair/hat styles!! == Marjorie Wilser (hoping very much that we get The White Queen over here. . . someday) =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW On Jul 24, 2013, at 7:55 AM, Kate Bunting wrote: As the list seems very quiet at the moment, I thought I'd ask what UK members who know about the Middle Ages think of the costumes in "The White Queen"? (It's a series based on 3 of Philippa Gregory's novels currently running on the BBC.) I know little about mediaeval costume, but my impression is that they have fallen into the same trap as the designers for "The Tudors" - the women show too much hair and not enough linen. Only a few older women wear headdresses. I assume this is supposed to make the leading ladies more attractive to modern eyes. Kate Bunting Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] OT hairdressing, Dineh
Chimene, Great shots, and they explain a lot! I always wondered how they did that :) But you made me hungry for fry bread (in the later pics). . . I can't speak for Viking times, but sure enjoyed the pics. == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ "Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement." --MW On Jul 24, 2013, at 1:35 AM, Patricia Dunham wrote: This is very OT for 12thC, but I've always wondered how it was done... Navajo women's traditional "double-bun" hair-dress. I think I'm going to ponder for a while if a similar technique might be of assistance in achieving the Viking women's ritual knot hair-dress, which, admittedly, is also OP for this list !? In any case, it is a marvelous demonstration of how to create and hold a fairly complex hair construction using non-modern tools. anyway, a Native lady on another of my lists just posted about a zillion photos from a recent large family reunion, among them a very step-by-step demonstration. Now, there are several clusters of hairdress photos scattered among pics of other activities, starting about halfway down this page, look for the little girl in the pink and yellow top, with white yarn holding her hair http://www.flickr.com/photos/neeta_lind/sets/72157634727656803/page2/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] The White Queen
As the list seems very quiet at the moment, I thought I'd ask what UK members who know about the Middle Ages think of the costumes in "The White Queen"? (It's a series based on 3 of Philippa Gregory's novels currently running on the BBC.) I know little about mediaeval costume, but my impression is that they have fallen into the same trap as the designers for "The Tudors" - the women show too much hair and not enough linen. Only a few older women wear headdresses. I assume this is supposed to make the leading ladies more attractive to modern eyes. Kate Bunting Retired librarian & 17th century reenactor. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Stumped
I was afraid of that. Lots of white undersleeves but all on white dresses so I count that as "self fabric" examples. Piecing...yes! I love the extant garments I've seen that use piecing. I will have to sacrifice a flounce (*sniff*) and piece in a bit of a gusset but it might be doable. Thanks! - Hope On 7/24/13 6:15 AM, annbw...@aol.com wrote: No picture of a real example, but Rosalie Stier Calvert of Maryland did write to her sister in Antwerp that she was sending her "a pair of lace sleeves" in 1807. And there is a French fashion plate from about the same time that shows separate sleeves. However, those sleeves are white with a white dress. Do you have enough of the fabric left to eke out a self separate undersleeve that can be pinned or basted in? It doesn't take much, and they can be pieced. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Victorian hat terminology
Dear all, I was asked by a friend about the correct name for a hat type worn by women in late 19th century England. And while I do historical costuming, the 19th century is really not my thing, so I thought I would ask the experts here. She described it as a small top hat, bigger and flatter than the miniature top hats you see in steampunk garb, often swathed in ribbon and tulle. Picture examples: - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1882estacaoa.jpg, the one on the far left, though that may be a mutant bonnet. - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1884myraa.jpg, on the right. That's bigger and less frouffy (technical term :-) ) than I was thinking of. - http://100megspop3.com/adira/victoria/1881estacaob.jpg , the middle hat, which makes me think that maybe what I'm seeing is a small bonnet worn on top of the head? Is there a common name for this type of hat? Or are there several different ones depending on minute details in appearance and/or construction, alternatively no specific name at all? With thanks, Lena (mostly lurking) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Stumped
The Regency Fashion Plates series by Foster and Perry presents several views of short sleeve over long sleeves...reprints of Ackermans, la belle Assemblee and such And I think I saw this style in Hunniford's Period Fashion as a variation of sleeves. From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Hope Greenberg [h...@uvm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:25 PM To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Stumped Here's a request: The dilemma: I making a garden variety early 19th century bib/apron dress of a cotton print. Of course, I have too little fabric so instead of a long sleeve I decided to do a short sleeve with a detachable undersleeve in white cotton voile. I went flipping through my collection of hundreds of images looking for an example. (Note, this is an 1812 or thereabouts gown, not the turn of the century type where a colored bodice and white sleeve is common, nor the Princess Charlotte "russian" dress that looks like our American jumper.) Lo and behold I cannot find an image of this combination. This, the staple of all JA films! Lots of short sleeves with long gloves, lots of short sleeves over undersleeves of the same fabric. Does anyone have an actual documented example? Thanks! - Hope hope.greenb...@uvm.edu ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Stumped
Does anyone have an actual documented example? No picture of a real example, but Rosalie Stier Calvert of Maryland did write to her sister in Antwerp that she was sending her "a pair of lace sleeves" in 1807. And there is a French fashion plate from about the same time that shows separate sleeves. However, those sleeves are white with a white dress. Do you have enough of the fabric left to eke out a self separate undersleeve that can be pinned or basted in? It doesn't take much, and they can be pieced. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Hope Greenberg To: h-costume Sent: Tue, Jul 23, 2013 10:27 pm Subject: [h-cost] Stumped Here's a request: The dilemma: I making a garden variety early 19th century bib/apron dress of a cotton print. Of course, I have too little fabric so instead of a long sleeve I decided to do a short sleeve with a detachable undersleeve in white cotton voile. I went flipping through my collection of hundreds of images looking for an example. (Note, this is an 1812 or thereabouts gown, not the turn of the century type where a colored bodice and white sleeve is common, nor the Princess Charlotte "russian" dress that looks like our American jumper.) Lo and behold I cannot find an image of this combination. This, the staple of all JA films! Lots of short sleeves with long gloves, lots of short sleeves over undersleeves of the same fabric. Does anyone have an actual documented example? Thanks! - Hope hope.greenb...@uvm.edu ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] OT hairdressing, Dineh
This is very OT for 12thC, but I've always wondered how it was done... Navajo women's traditional "double-bun" hair-dress. I think I'm going to ponder for a while if a similar technique might be of assistance in achieving the Viking women's ritual knot hair-dress, which, admittedly, is also OP for this list !? In any case, it is a marvelous demonstration of how to create and hold a fairly complex hair construction using non-modern tools. anyway, a Native lady on another of my lists just posted about a zillion photos from a recent large family reunion, among them a very step-by-step demonstration. Now, there are several clusters of hairdress photos scattered among pics of other activities, starting about halfway down this page, look for the little girl in the pink and yellow top, with white yarn holding her hair http://www.flickr.com/photos/neeta_lind/sets/72157634727656803/page2/ enjoy chimene ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
