Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Jennifer Geard wrote: I made mine with four laces -- front, back and two sides. The stop points are at the 'corners' where the laces meet. However, Adele pointed out http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/p/palma/vecchio/blonde.jpg, which frankly looks like a more plausible explanation. I'll quietly regret the 26,000 (!) messages from this list that I deleted -- mostly unread -- in a recent clean-up, and leave you to your regular discussions. wry grin - that's a few years' worth of failing to keep up You do understand, of course, how I hate to disagree with you :-) -- Adele de Maisieres - Habeo metrum - musicamque, hominem meam. Expectat alium quid? -Georgeus Gershwinus - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
On Mon, 20 Mar 2006 21:06, Adele de Maisieres wrote: You do understand, of course, how I hate to disagree with you :-) You do understand how highly I value fruitful disagreement... grin Cheers, Jennifer -- Jennifer Geard ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006, Jennifer Geard wrote: Hi All, On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 04:50, Kate M Bunting wrote: We've debated this topic more than once and the general consensus seems to be that chemises/shifts before the 18th century had stitched-down gathers, not drawstrings. I'm well behind and paying only another flying visit, but for what _might_ be another take on gathered chemise necklines, have a look at Raphael's La Donna Velata (http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/r/raphael/5roma/3/03velata.html - click image for larger version). Are the black bows with aglets functional or purely decorative? Ten years ago I made a version of this assuming the bow laces were functional and that they served to gather the camisa neckline. Using very fine fabric, separate gathering cords for the front, back and shoulders, and the tightest channel I could sew for the laces [*] I managed to make something that captured the look. It's quite possibly a fake, but if so it's a good enough fake that it made me wonder whether this might have been the way the gathering was achieved, even if it was then secured to a woven band. I remember this one! We had a great discussion of it in May 2004. I've saved a post I wrote then, which I'll append below. ISTR there were lots of different readings of the image, of which mine is only one. Probably worth going back to the archives to read them all, if this image interests you. --Robin Date: Thu, 20 May 2004 13:16:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Drawstring chemise On Thu, 20 May 2004, Katie Pleasance wrote: If you click on the picture enough times you get a *very* enlarged image that shows much detail. Look at the bow on the right side of the picture. Look at the left-hand aiglette. Follow that cord back to the bow. Where the cord intersects the bow is a section of cord jutting to the left and disappearing into the casing. The casing opening is even rounded where the round cord enters the casing. To me this is evidence of a casing with a cord coming out of the casing and the cord (drawstring) being tied in a bow. The cord is a round cord as would be used as a drawstring. The bow looks functional rather than decorative. This isn't my period, but I've learned to look for multiple possibilities, and I'm pretty suspicious of drawstrings at this date. I do agree that the bow is functional. And it's also clear that the chemise edge breaks at the point of the bow, so it's discontinuous there. But it's also worth noting that the aiglettes would never pass through the tiny channel that runs along the top edge of the chemise, below the ruffled bit. It's possible that it's a drawstring that was put in first, with the aiglettes added later. But I also wonder if the bow is made of a cord of about five or six inches long, passed through an eyelet on each side of the break at neck edge. Such fastenings (IIRC) appear on Elizabethan shirts, or so I remember reading on this list. It's also worth noting that the bows are placed perfectly for nursing openings, meaning we might be looking at a means of closing slits that run vertically down from the bow points. The fullness of the chemise would keep the slits from opening up in the space between dress and neckline. Not a proof, just another point to consider. The pleats are a decorative edge trimming the neckline. The pleats attach to the body of the chemise at the top of the casing. Why do you think that? I would think that such an attachment would add quite a bit of bulk in the seam, which I'm not seeing. The ruffled bit could just as easily be the top part of the chemise fabric whether you're assuming a casing or not, particularly if the casing is made by putting a ribbon along the back of the fabric and stitching top and bottom to form a channel. But I think it still looks more like two lines of stitching holding the chemise pleats in place. Remember also that the artist would paint his impression of the look, meaning we probably won't see individual stitches if they are very small. It also means he may not have had the remotest idea of how the bow was fastened in, but only painted what he saw -- the bow interrupting the line of the chemise top and disappearing into the chemise fabric at each side. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Very interesting, when you click it up to 200% you can see the string end entering the channel/casing, but I was wondering if it was only 2 pieces of string involved 1 very long one for the channel across the back of the shoulders to the area above the collar bones and a shorter run directly across the front of the bust? The agilets would prevent the cord from slipping in the channel and getting lost Are the black bows with aglets functional or purely decorative? When you say the 4 laces make stop points, do you mean there are 4 laces total involved or 4 ends,2 tying ends for each bows ? Have never seen this type of neck treatment and it opens alot of options Melody SNIP --- Jennifer Geard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...another take on gathered chemise necklines, have a look at Raphael's La Donna Velata (http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/r/raphael/5roma/3/03velata.html - click image for larger version). [*] The four laces mean there are stop-points at the front and back of the armpits, controlling any tendency for the fullness to gravity-feed to the centre front and back. Discussion welcome. grin JLG -- Jennifer Geard ___ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Adele de Maisieres [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I remain unconvinced that the black lace enters the channel. I think that what we're looking at is similar to this one: http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/p/palma/vecchio/blonde.jpg You beat me to it Adele! :-) Bella - On Yahoo!7 Messenger: Make free PC-to-PC calls to your friends overseas. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 13:28, Melody Watts wrote: When you say the 4 laces make stop points, do you mean there are 4 laces total involved or 4 ends,2 tying ends for each bows ? I made mine with four laces -- front, back and two sides. The stop points are at the 'corners' where the laces meet. However, Adele pointed out http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/p/palma/vecchio/blonde.jpg, which frankly looks like a more plausible explanation. I'll quietly regret the 26,000 (!) messages from this list that I deleted -- mostly unread -- in a recent clean-up, and leave you to your regular discussions. wry grin - that's a few years' worth of failing to keep up Cheers, Jennifer -- Jennifer Geard ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Hi All, On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 04:50, Kate M Bunting wrote: We've debated this topic more than once and the general consensus seems to be that chemises/shifts before the 18th century had stitched-down gathers, not drawstrings. I'm well behind and paying only another flying visit, but for what _might_ be another take on gathered chemise necklines, have a look at Raphael's La Donna Velata (http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/r/raphael/5roma/3/03velata.html - click image for larger version). Are the black bows with aglets functional or purely decorative? Ten years ago I made a version of this assuming the bow laces were functional and that they served to gather the camisa neckline. Using very fine fabric, separate gathering cords for the front, back and shoulders, and the tightest channel I could sew for the laces [*] I managed to make something that captured the look. It's quite possibly a fake, but if so it's a good enough fake that it made me wonder whether this might have been the way the gathering was achieved, even if it was then secured to a woven band. Cheers, Jennifer [*] The channel was made by finishing the neck edge with a casing the height of the gathering cord + ruffle, threading the gathering cord, tamping the cord down against the seam and then sewing the second seam to separate the channel from the ruffle. I was doing a proof-of-concept garment, so I used a tubular cord (piping cord) to give something to push against and a zipper foot to push against it to get the gathering channel snug to the cord. The combination of the very fine fabric and the firm fit of the laces in their channels means you get a fairly stable, very finely-pleated effect with a small ruffle above the gathering. The four laces mean there are stop-points at the front and back of the armpits, controlling any tendency for the fullness to gravity-feed to the centre front and back. I think this technique is a definite improvement on using a single line of stitching to gather the neck seam, which tends to lead to a very floppy ruffle. I'm in two minds about whether it's an improvement on actually pleating to a band, although to my eye it gives the effect I see in the painting of being more pleat-like than usual gathering but less regimented than actual pleating. It's also _much_ simpler and quicker, and makes the garment adjustable to suit different necklines (or bodies). Discussion welcome. I realise the orthodoxy these days is that necklines of this time weren't gathered, but this variant makes me wonder. And I've now written a footnote longer than my main message. grin JLG -- Jennifer Geard ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Some links for you: http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/gallery/linens/undies.html - chemises at the bottom of the page http://homepage.mac.com/festive_attyre/research/diary/diary3.html - a how to for a gathered neck chemise http://costume.dm.net/chemise.html - the smock generator which links from this page is very good http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_shirt.htm - the demo is for a shirt, but shifts/chemises had very little to distinguish them from each other - usually only the length ( a shift tended to be longer ) and whether the garment had side gores or was just straight up and down ( shifts had the side gores ) - this entire site is well worth having a good look at. http://freespace.virgin.net/f.lea/shiftdesign.html - some good pictures http://realmofvenus.renaissancewoman.net/wardrobe/firstthingsfirst.htm - follow the links to some good pictures of extant chemises http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/hand%20Linen%20camicia.htm - another gathered and stitched neckline http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Morgans%20Closet/Chemise%201630.htm - another shift HTH Joannah ~*~ Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless acts of beauty. ~*~ --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there anywhere I can see how this is done? This is the first time I've heard about this technique. I was always under the belief that drawstrings were used in the neckline and cuffs. Since I have to make myself some new chemises this is a good time to learn the new technique (new to me). Roscelin -- Original message -- From: Kate M Bunting [EMAIL PROTECTED] We've debated this topic more than once and the general consensus seems to be that chemises/shifts before the 18th century had stitched-down gathers, not drawstrings. 17th century reenactors commonly do make shifts with drawstrings, presumably because that's how we would make modern garments that look like that (i.e. peasant or gypsy-style blouses). I'm not a Tudor expert, but presumably the ruff developed from a chemise neck gathered into a ruffle? Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor _ Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
At 06:10 AM 3/13/2006, you wrote: Anyway I have never seen anything about a drawstring that is Medieval or Renaissance. As a matter of fact something I read said it was the result of the I need 100 chemises fast mindset of the original Ren Faires. The chemises I have seen--- and this is only in paintings, mind you-- show no indication of a drawstring in the neck-- either a high neckline or low neckline. The only source I know of is the Winter and Savoy book on Renaissance faire costuming. I hate that book, as there are a number of inaccuracies, but it was my first book when I first joined faire. I've since given my copy away. But thank you for reminding me about this Ren faire garb myth. I have added it to my collection of garb myths that I am working on debunking. I've been so busy looking up pics for my list that I haven't been able to catch up on my e-mail. Kimiko ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Gather the sleeves into wristbands, closed with ribbon ties. The neck gathers can be stitched onto a band or facing (something like the ecclesiastical surplice, only they usually have a wider band at the top than you would want on a shift). According to Nicole Kipar, who used to be on this list, the ribbon ties should not be stitched on but should pass through two buttonholes (for 17th century garments). Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 13/03/2006 16:31 Is there anywhere I can see how this is done? This is the first time I've heard about this technique. I was always under the belief that drawstrings were used in the neckline and cuffs. Since I have to make myself some new chemises this is a good time to learn the new technique (new to me). Roscelin __ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Hi All- I subbed as the instructor for a Clothing History class a couple of weeks ago. One of the instructors notes stated that the ruff was a descendant of a chemise with a drawstring neck. I have been a costumer since I was 12 (oh, boy am I dating myself), with a BA and MA in Theatre costume and 18 years of 16th C. clothing research in the SCA that resulted in a Laurel-- and now I teach fashion on the college level, so I guess I'm pretty intense about my clothing Anyway I have never seen anything about a drawstring that is Medieval or Renaissance. As a matter of fact something I read said it was the result of the I need 100 chemises fast mindset of the original Ren Faires. The chemises I have seen--- and this is only in paintings, mind you-- show no indication of a drawstring in the neck-- either a high neckline or low neckline. Can anyone help me on this? My professor friend has said she found a reference in several books but is more than willing to look at what I find , and change her lecture, as necessary. We both hate the idea of disseminating incorrect information to students. Thanks a bunch-- Monica Spence (Catriona MacDuff in the SCA) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
We've debated this topic more than once and the general consensus seems to be that chemises/shifts before the 18th century had stitched-down gathers, not drawstrings. 17th century reenactors commonly do make shifts with drawstrings, presumably because that's how we would make modern garments that look like that (i.e. peasant or gypsy-style blouses). I'm not a Tudor expert, but presumably the ruff developed from a chemise neck gathered into a ruffle? Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Hi Monica, I'm wondering where her sources come from...how old they are. Karl Kohler era costumers have been passed as almost biblical until recently. This might be why she thinks the shifts were drawstrung. I would offer her the portraiture you've been looking at and have a good discussion about this topic. Good luck! Kelly Anyway I have never seen anything about a drawstring that is Medieval or Renaissance. As a matter of fact something I read said it was the result of the I need 100 chemises fast mindset of the original Ren Faires. The chemises I have seen--- and this is only in paintings, mind you-- show no indication of a drawstring in the neck-- either a high neckline or low neckline. Can anyone help me on this? My professor friend has said she found a reference in several books but is more than willing to look at what I find , and change her lecture, as necessary. We both hate the idea of disseminating incorrect information to students. Thanks a bunch-- Monica Spence (Catriona MacDuff in the SCA) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Is there anywhere I can see how this is done? This is the first time I've heard about this technique. I was always under the belief that drawstrings were used in the neckline and cuffs. Since I have to make myself some new chemises this is a good time to learn the new technique (new to me). Roscelin -- Original message -- From: Kate M Bunting [EMAIL PROTECTED] We've debated this topic more than once and the general consensus seems to be that chemises/shifts before the 18th century had stitched-down gathers, not drawstrings. 17th century reenactors commonly do make shifts with drawstrings, presumably because that's how we would make modern garments that look like that (i.e. peasant or gypsy-style blouses). I'm not a Tudor expert, but presumably the ruff developed from a chemise neck gathered into a ruffle? Kate Bunting Librarian and 17th century reenactor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Hi Roscelin, this depends a lot on the style...can you show us a picture of what you are trying to make? Sg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there anywhere I can see how this is done? This is the first time I've heard about this technique. I was always under the belief that drawstrings were used in the neckline and cuffs. Since I have to make myself some new chemises this is a good time to learn the new technique (new to me). Roscelin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topic: drawstring necklines on chemises
Even in the 18th century, the typical drawstring neckline was not used. Sometimes there is a drawstring that serves to snug up the neckline a bit , but not to the extent of creating gathers. Sleeves tend to be gathered into cuffs and sometimes a ruffle added (sometimes of a finer fabric). Some shift sleeves are shorter, close fit and only have a narrow hem. But the same as anywhere, we see the head-swallowing-shift at reenactments. That's when it's pulled up to the collarbones. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
