Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
That is the point. A machine-made sweater that someone gave me that did not cost much, which I dislike so much I have never once worn it in the 7 years or so since it was given to me, and which I am making a final attempt to like and use by dyeing it before throwing it away, is not something I value so much I want to go out and spend money on the very finest, most very appropriate and expensive materials, even if it's just $2 worth of dye and $5 worth of shipping charges. I would throw the sweater out anyway, except my mother gave it to me and she has since died herself (not with Procion MX). She had awful taste in colors and I am sure she gave me an ivory-colored sweater as the one thing she could think of that would please me. On the other hand, I already have about 15 pounds of different Procion MX dyes available, since I've been doing cotton dyeing projects weekly for the last year and a half. I also have read several Internet articles saying that this is often done and that it can be successful. The problem is most use more heat than I'd like to use washing wool, which, BTW, I do do in tap-cold water. There's fine art, and then there is salvage. I also usually do not use the very finest fabrics and lace for patching clothes, or go out and buy special materials to do it with. I just use what I have around. The members of this list are also very quick to criticize each other for not doing things exactly the way they do them. I am not living my life to meet anyone else's standards but my own. Fran best, most appropriate materials. The members of this list are very quick to point out the inappropriate fabrics, methods or styles used to make a costume, so apply the same standard. Using dye intended for a different product can have poor results that go beyond "not exactly the same colors". You could have issues with colorfastness, lightfastness, fiber damage or failure, crocking and probably others. Enough acid dye to dye one sweater costs about $2, even in the most expensive color. Why would you use anything that might give you poor results? Just donate the sweater or something. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I have used soda ash on silk with no problems. I must admit I've never tried it on wool. I would call Pro Chemical on the east coast. I order my dye from either them or Dharma and they are very knowledgeable. They will give you the definitive answer you need for dyeing wool. Go to http://www.prochemical.com/ Sylvia Rognstad Divinity Designs and Emeralds http://www.d-e-designs.com On May 24, 2007, at 6:38 AM, Land of Oz wrote: I use them at room temp. My info says that using heat is not advised. I dissolve the salt in hot water and let it come to room temp before adding dye and soda ash. I also dissolve the soda ash in hot water and let cool. These are the directions for dyeing cotton. If you use soda ash on wool or silk, you will get holes or severely weakened fabric. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I'm aware that that there are different dyes available for protein fibers. But according to some websites many people do use Procion dyes on wool, they just don't get exactly the same colors. And I have lots of Procion dyes already, so why buy more dye? I'm not a chemist. If I value the product I am going to spend time on, then I'm going to use the best, most appropriate materials. The members of this list are very quick to point out the inappropriate fabrics, methods or styles used to make a costume, so apply the same standard. Using dye intended for a different product can have poor results that go beyond "not exactly the same colors". You could have issues with colorfastness, lightfastness, fiber damage or failure, crocking and probably others. Enough acid dye to dye one sweater costs about $2, even in the most expensive color. Why would you use anything that might give you poor results? Just donate the sweater or something. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I use them at room temp. My info says that using heat is not advised. I dissolve the salt in hot water and let it come to room temp before adding dye and soda ash. I also dissolve the soda ash in hot water and let cool. These are the directions for dyeing cotton. If you use soda ash on wool or silk, you will get holes or severely weakened fabric. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Procion MX dyes both protein and cellulose fibers. Acid dyes will only dye protein fibers. Sylvia On May 23, 2007, at 7:51 PM, Sharon Collier wrote: So what happens if you use cotton dyes on wool? Does it not dye at all, or would it give the muddy look she (sorry , I deleted original message) is looking for? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Land of Oz Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:36 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. - But you can't use the same dye (that dyes cotton in cold water) to dye wool. Different chemicals. Rit and other dyes like it have both types in the same package: cellulosic dyes (for cotton, linen, hemp) *and* acid dyes (for wool, silk, mohair). That's one of the reasons Rit dye takes so long to rinse out. If you dye wool, you have to rinse out all the unused cellulose dye. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
So what happens if you use cotton dyes on wool? Does it not dye at all, or would it give the muddy look she (sorry , I deleted original message) is looking for? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Land of Oz Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 6:36 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. - But you can't use the same dye (that dyes cotton in cold water) to dye wool. Different chemicals. Rit and other dyes like it have both types in the same package: cellulosic dyes (for cotton, linen, hemp) *and* acid dyes (for wool, silk, mohair). That's one of the reasons Rit dye takes so long to rinse out. If you dye wool, you have to rinse out all the unused cellulose dye. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I'm aware that that there are different dyes available for protein fibers. But according to some websites many people do use Procion dyes on wool, they just don't get exactly the same colors. And I have lots of Procion dyes already, so why buy more dye? Fran Land of Oz wrote: Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. - But you can't use the same dye (that dyes cotton in cold water) to dye wool. Different chemicals. Rit and other dyes like it have both types in the same package: cellulosic dyes (for cotton, linen, hemp) *and* acid dyes (for wool, silk, mohair). That's one of the reasons Rit dye takes so long to rinse out. If you dye wool, you have to rinse out all the unused cellulose dye. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I use them at room temp. My info says that using heat is not advised. I dissolve the salt in hot water and let it come to room temp before adding dye and soda ash. I also dissolve the soda ash in hot water and let cool. On May 23, 2007, at 1:15 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: They are recommended for some heat--they are not supposed to be literallly tap-water-cold-dyes. Do you use them tap-water-cold? Fran Sylvia Rognstad wrote: That's funny. I seem to get muddy colors with MX all the time when I don't want them. MX dyes don't use heat. You just need to stir. Sylvia ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
They are recommended for some heat--they are not supposed to be literallly tap-water-cold-dyes. Do you use them tap-water-cold? Fran Sylvia Rognstad wrote: That's funny. I seem to get muddy colors with MX all the time when I don't want them. MX dyes don't use heat. You just need to stir. Sylvia ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater a muddy color
I add the color Bronze to my Procion dye mixtures to "down" the color. In sufficient quantities, it should do the trick. - Original Message - I like muddy colors though, and can't usually achieve them with Procion MX dyes, which I have lots of around. I know they are not officially wool dyes but people seem to use them for wook anyway. Fran ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. - But you can't use the same dye (that dyes cotton in cold water) to dye wool. Different chemicals. Rit and other dyes like it have both types in the same package: cellulosic dyes (for cotton, linen, hemp) *and* acid dyes (for wool, silk, mohair). That's one of the reasons Rit dye takes so long to rinse out. If you dye wool, you have to rinse out all the unused cellulose dye. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Oh, I forgot to say, I was tie-dying T-shirts, so first we soaked them in a pre-dye solution (I forget what it was called), then squirted on the dye and left it sit for some number of hours. The thing is, there was no agitation required, which would be good news for your sweater. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, machine knitted 100% wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid color, without felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The heat and agitation in most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me very antsy. I'm not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I got this sweater for Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's boring, and have decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have a nice-quality ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I've never tried Kool-aid. You can dye wool in room temp water with Procion MX dyes. Sylvia Rognstad Divinity Designs and Emeralds http://www.d-e-designs.com On May 22, 2007, at 5:54 PM, monica spence wrote: Believe it or not Kool-aide works as a dye on wool. I saw it at the New York State fair a long time ago. Thre colors are bright! I am sure that using a mordent would make it more colorfast. That is all I know. Maybe someone here knows more. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, machine knitted 100% wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid color, without felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The heat and agitation in most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me very antsy. I'm not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I got this sweater for Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's boring, and have decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have a nice-quality ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
That's funny. I seem to get muddy colors with MX all the time when I don't want them. MX dyes don't use heat. You just need to stir. it's probably your water. Try using distilled, filtered or bottled water. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
That's funny. I seem to get muddy colors with MX all the time when I don't want them. MX dyes don't use heat. You just need to stir. Sylvia On May 23, 2007, at 12:20 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: I order from Dharma all the time. I am just having trouble reconciling the heat and agitation most wool-dyeing instructions require, with what that might do to wool, particularly wool that has already been knitted up and thefore shrinkage is an issue. Most people seem to be dyeing yarn. I like muddy colors though, and can't usually achieve them with Procion MX dyes, which I have lots of around. I know they are not officially wool dyes but people seem to use them for wook anyway. Fran Sharon Collier wrote: Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Fran-- If you want muddy colors, add black dye, or the complement of the color you are using. Kim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:20 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater I order from Dharma all the time. I am just having trouble reconciling the heat and agitation most wool-dyeing instructions require, with what that might do to wool, particularly wool that has already been knitted up and thefore shrinkage is an issue. Most people seem to be dyeing yarn. I like muddy colors though, and can't usually achieve them with Procion MX dyes, which I have lots of around. I know they are not officially wool dyes but people seem to use them for wook anyway. Fran Sharon Collier wrote: > Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold > water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright > and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. > ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
I order from Dharma all the time. I am just having trouble reconciling the heat and agitation most wool-dyeing instructions require, with what that might do to wool, particularly wool that has already been knitted up and thefore shrinkage is an issue. Most people seem to be dyeing yarn. I like muddy colors though, and can't usually achieve them with Procion MX dyes, which I have lots of around. I know they are not officially wool dyes but people seem to use them for wook anyway. Fran Sharon Collier wrote: Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Try Dharma Trading Company. They have lovely dyes that work in cold water. I have used them on cotton T-shirts and the dyes stays bright and doesn't wash out. Colors aren't muddy. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 2:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, machine knitted 100% wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid color, without felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The heat and agitation in most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me very antsy. I'm not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I got this sweater for Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's boring, and have decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have a nice-quality ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Yeah, what she said. Thanks Denise, I knew I was forgetting something important. Kimiko --- Land of Oz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The key to even dying is movement. The method > outlined by Kimiko is good up > to the point where she recommends leaving the > sweater in the dye bath > overnight. This may result in darker spots wherever > any available dye > settles on the sweater. The best (most accurate) > dye-bath has no available > dye left at the end -- the dye pot contains what > looks like clear or very > slightly tinted water. Then you know you've used up > all the available dye > and rinsing is a much easier task. Then you just > let the dye bath come to > room temperature and rinse. > > Denise > Iowa Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
At 04:54 PM 5/22/2007, you wrote: Believe it or not Kool-aide works as a dye on wool. I saw it at the New York State fair a long time ago. Thre colors are bright! I am sure that using a mordent would make it more colorfast. That is all I know. Maybe someone here knows more. Monica I've used Kool-Aid to dye wool. You do not need to add anything to it; I use 2 packages of unsweetened Kool-Aid to 1-1/2 ounces of wool. I would suggest the cold water dye recommended earlier. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Believe it or not Kool-aide works as a dye on wool. I saw it at the New York State fair a long time ago. Thre colors are bright! I am sure that using a mordent would make it more colorfast. That is all I know. Maybe someone here knows more. kool-aide is an acid dye and doesn't need a mordant, on top of the fact that there isn't any mordant that can make kool-aide colorfast. Also, your dyed goods will smell like the drink mix for a long time! If you use any type of food coloring (drink mixes, easter egg dye, baking colors, etc) you will be sorry. They are not color fast. The key to even dying is movement. The method outlined by Kimiko is good up to the point where she recommends leaving the sweater in the dye bath overnight. This may result in darker spots wherever any available dye settles on the sweater. The best (most accurate) dye-bath has no available dye left at the end -- the dye pot contains what looks like clear or very slightly tinted water. Then you know you've used up all the available dye and rinsing is a much easier task. Then you just let the dye bath come to room temperature and rinse. Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Believe it or not Kool-aide works as a dye on wool. I saw it at the New York State fair a long time ago. Thre colors are bright! I am sure that using a mordent would make it more colorfast. That is all I know. Maybe someone here knows more. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 5:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, machine knitted 100% wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid color, without felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The heat and agitation in most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me very antsy. I'm not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I got this sweater for Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's boring, and have decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have a nice-quality ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Hi Fran, I have dyed wool yarns before, handspun stuff, with both chemical and natural dyes, and helped with one wool jacket, so I can offer a little advice. But others may have much better advice than I. While it does take hot water to dye the garment, it is the agitation, and the shock of hot, or even cold water that will felt wool. First start with a newly cleaned sweater, that can be done in cool water, let me amend that, water that is room temperature, and well rinsed, with minimal movement. Then take the wet sweater and put it into a very large pot, preferably all steel or enameled, that is large enough for the sweater and the water needed to cover with room for stirring. Add cool water, that should match the temp of the sweater. Again this is to avoid the shock to the wool. Put the pot on the stove, then slowly bring the water to high enough temp to dye with (this depends on the dye you use, check directions for temp needed). Using a stir stick (that you can toss, since it will get dyed, unless it is steel or glass or something like that), move the sweater out of the way, and add in your dyes, and any other chemicals needed, per the dye directions. Stir the sweater gently but frequently so that the dye disperses throughout the pot, as you don't want streaks. Continue to stir the length of time needed for the dye, which also depends on how deep a color you want. Once you get a color deeper than you want, since wet color is darker than when the garment is dry, remove the pot from the heat. Allow the wool to remain in the pot for several hours or overnight, as the temp naturally falls. When the water is again room temp, carefully dump the remaining dye down the drain (again check your dye for disposal needs). Fill the pot with room temp water, and rinse several times until the water runs clear. Now, there's no guarantee that this will not shrink the wool, as that's a matter of the kind of wool that was used, if it was already preshrunk, if it was tightly finished, or chemically finished, or anything else for that matter. I've had some yarns not shrink at all, and some yarns shrink a lot. The jacket I helped with did shrink, but that was the chance my friend took. Good luck! Kimiko --- Lavolta Press <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, > machine knitted 100% > wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid > color, without > felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The > heat and agitation in > most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me > very antsy. I'm > not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I > got this sweater for > Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's > boring, and have > decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have > a nice-quality > ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. > > Fran > Lavolta Press > http://www.lavoltapress.com We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater
Fran-- You can dye wool with Procion MX cold water dyes. You won't need heat, just enough agitation to make sure it dyes evenly . Kim Get them from www.dharmatrading.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lavolta Press Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] How to dye a sweater Any advice on how to dye an ivory colored, modern, machine knitted 100% wool turtleneck sweater some less boring but solid color, without felting it or otherwise damaging the texture? The heat and agitation in most dye instructions, even those for wool, makes me very antsy. I'm not really into dyeing or working with wool, but I got this sweater for Christmas years ago, have never worn it because it's boring, and have decided I might as well dye it. If it works, I have a nice-quality ivory 1950s cashmere cardigan I'd like to do next. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
