Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-20 Thread hantslug 
On Friday 20 July 2012 12:05:20 Rob Malpass wrote:
> > And I have found quoting to be very useful.  It concentrates people's
> > minds wonderfully!
>
> Thanks Lisi.   I'm 99% sure it won't come to that.

No - it rarely does.  But it is useful to know what arrows one has at one's 
disposal!!  And I did once use it to great effect.

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-20 Thread Rob Malpass 


> -Original Message-
> From: hampshire-boun...@mailman.lug.org.uk [mailto:hampshire-
> boun...@mailman.lug.org.uk] On Behalf Of hants...@googlemail.com
> Sent: 20 July 2012 11:39
> To: Hampshire LUG Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix
> 
> No, I realise that.  My email wws aimed rather at Rob, 

No worries Lisi.

> In addition to the threat of tribunals, there is a straighforward case to
> be answered in the courts, where, if they refused to help, he could sue
> them; and where the only acceptable defence is that what was being asked
> was too much for the defendant to be reasonably able to do. The RNIB did
> publish a standard letter to be used for complaints under the Disabilty
> Discrimination Act.  It seems likely that they now do one under the
> Equality Act, but I do not know for sure.
> 
> And I have found quoting to be very useful.  It concentrates people's
> minds wonderfully!

Thanks Lisi.   I'm 99% sure it won't come to that.

Cheers
Rob


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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-20 Thread hantslug 
On Friday 20 July 2012 10:39:19 Full Circle Podcast wrote:
> Lisi: couldn't remember which Act precisely (hence 'disability rights
> legislation' in lower case), but that would be the one.

No, I realise that.  My email wws aimed rather at Rob, who was being advised 
to quote it.  As someone with sight problems he probably knew that already, 
but it seemed worth telling him.

> Not that I expect Rob will need to quote from it, since the merest hint of
> industrial tribunal tends to kick the management's backside into action,
> speaking as former member of said management. This is the sort of
> technology thing that should override standard IT policy as a matter of
> course, anyway.

In addition to the threat of tribunals, there is a straighforward case to be 
answered in the courts, where, if they refused to help, he could sue them; 
and where the only acceptable defence is that what was being asked was too 
much for the defendant to be reasonably able to do. The RNIB did publish a 
standard letter to be used for complaints under the Disabilty Discrimination 
Act.  It seems likely that they now do one under the Equality Act, but I do 
not know for sure.

And I have found quoting to be very useful.  It concentrates people's minds 
wonderfully! 

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-20 Thread Full Circle Podcast 
Lisi: couldn't remember which Act precisely (hence 'disability rights
legislation' in lower case), but that would be the one.

Not that I expect Rob will need to quote from it, since the merest hint of
industrial tribunal tends to kick the management's backside into action,
speaking as former member of said management. This is the sort of
technology thing that should override standard IT policy as a matter of
course, anyway.

-- 
RC

Robin Catling
Full Circle Podcast

On 19 July 2012 11:17,  wrote:

> On Thursday 19 July 2012 10:46:48 Full Circle Podcast wrote:
> > a gentle reminder
> > about disability rights legislation around the coffee machine
>
> I assume you know (and apologise for mentioning it if you do) that the
> Disability Act 2000 has been superseded by the Equality Act 2010?
>
> Lisi
>
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread James Courtier-Dutton 
On 19 July 2012 09:20, Rob Malpass  wrote:
> Hi all
>
>
>
> For my own education please, I need someone to explain a potentially far
> reaching decision made by our IT people at work
>
>
>
> At present, we're still stuck on Windows XP and MS Office 2003.   The system
> works quite well but is beginning to struggle with the big datasets I have
> to handle.   So they've just bought Windows 7 PCs and the spec is pretty
> good (Intel i5, 8Gb RAM).   The most bizarre thing is myself and my
> colleague have been asked to test them as "power users" and the
> implementation they've deployed is via a "Citrix container" - whatever that
> is.
>
>
>
> I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Citrix but I thought this
> was something akin to remotely controlling another PC - except that the PC
> you're remotely controlling was virtual - is this wrong?   If I'm right,
> surely it means that all this wonderful Intel i5 power is effectively being
> used as a terminal and the speed we'll have is the speed of the machine
> we're controlling.
>
>
>
> The reason I ask is there's some specialist software for the visually
> impaired that I use which is never going to work over Citrix because it was
> never designed to do so.   I have a nasty feeling that they're going to turn
> around and say my software can't be used -  and that could have very far
> reaching consequences for me.
>
>
>
> So what is Citrix and can anyone see why they may have set things up in this
> way?
>

Citrix has 2 ways of handling application and virtual desktops.
1) they deliver an entire desktop in the equivalent of a VNCing form
one machine to another.
2) They deliver individual apps to your local desktop. So instead of
seeing an entire desktop, you only see the app window, and it actually
feels as if the app has been installed on your PC. They call this
"streaming" the app. This is equivalent of an individual app window
being passed over VNC between two machines.
Instead of VNC, they use something similar but call it "Citrix Client".

I don't know what your specialist visual software does, but if it can
be used on a VNC client, it should be able to be used on a Citrix
Client. So, maybe having your visual software installed locally, and
using Option 2, might work for you. You would have to test it.

My experience with Citrix is that it does not work very well when
working from home over a broadband link. But, that might just be the
particular setup the IT people have done, and might be tunable if
deployed elsewhere.

I am surprised they are going for Citrix now, Microsoft has some
comparable functions that work over RDP, for a fraction of the cost of
Citrix.

Kind Regards

James

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Rob Malpass 


> -Original Message-
> From: hampshire-boun...@mailman.lug.org.uk [mailto:hampshire-
> boun...@mailman.lug.org.uk] On Behalf Of Alan Pope
> Sent: 19 July 2012 10:20
> To: hampshire@mailman.lug.org.uk
> Subject: Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix
> You've been asked to test something. Might be worth testing it and
> reporting back the real-world performance and issues then?

I have tested it and already reported back to them - sorry I didn't make
that clear.   On standard MS Office stuff, it's fine but takes ages to
launch SPSS (6 minutes for some reason) and does not work with my magnifier
program Zoomtext. Zoomtext's authors say they don't support Zoomtext in a
Citrix environment.   

> 
> The remote machine may well be faster than your i5, especially if it's
> only running what you need, has access to fast(er) storage than your
> internal disk and has more RAM. I wouldn't assume that just because it's
> remote it has to be slow(er).
> 

Point taken.

> So again, test it and report back.
> 
Have done - and the response I got was a sort of "sorry - we can't do
anything for you".   Hence my concern.   But at the risk of asking a naive
question... If they can't set me up a workstation in a Citrix container -
then presumably the worst that would happen is I'd need a workstation of my
own - even if that incurred extra license costs for Office etc.   That is
right isn't it?

Thanks to all for your replies.

Cheers
Rob


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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Freaky Clown 
as others have said try it you might just like it...

as for "locked down desktop" LOL we at work have yet to see a well
locked down citrix environment, infact it has become a bit of a joke
contest to see who can "break out" of the citrix environment the
fastest, i believe the current record is ~3 seconds and this was done
by someone just slapping both hands down on the keyboard... but on
average "breakouts" normally take 15 seconds or so because of the need
to type something. It is then just a matter of owning the host
environment.

I am sure your IT group will follow all the lock down guidelines and
all will be good in the world ;)

FC

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:17 AM,   wrote:
> On Thursday 19 July 2012 10:46:48 Full Circle Podcast wrote:
>> a gentle reminder
>> about disability rights legislation around the coffee machine
>
> I assume you know (and apologise for mentioning it if you do) that the
> Disability Act 2000 has been superseded by the Equality Act 2010?
>
> Lisi
>
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread hantslug 
On Thursday 19 July 2012 10:46:48 Full Circle Podcast wrote:
> a gentle reminder
> about disability rights legislation around the coffee machine

I assume you know (and apologise for mentioning it if you do) that the 
Disability Act 2000 has been superseded by the Equality Act 2010?

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Full Circle Podcast 
>  For my own education please, I need someone to explain a potentially far
> reaching decision made by our IT people at work
>

This will be a budgetary thing. Somebody expecting a magic wand to save
lots of IT support money; server software licensing presumed cheaper than
individual desktop licences. 'Instant' fault-fnding; if a machine breaks
(desktop or server) you just blitz it back to a stock image and start over.
Because nobody keeps data except in the designated network drive. Of
course. And everyone has a standard set-up across the enterprise. Naturally.

Been there. Bought the t-shirt.

At least you've got Win7 PC's and not Wyse thin clients...

-- 
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RC

Robin Catling
Full Circle Podcast
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Full Circle Podcast 
Rob,
*
*

*"The reason I ask is there's some specialist software for the visually
impaired that I use which is never going to work over Citrix because it was
never designed to do so.   I have a nasty feeling that they're going to
turn around and say my software can't be used -  and that could have very
far reaching consequences for me."*


Show willing. Test it. Report back. If it doesn't work, a gentle reminder
about disability rights legislation around the coffee machine to the right
people usually works wonders in producing a solution!

RC

On 19 July 2012 10:38, Simon Reap  wrote:

>  On 19/07/12 09:20, Rob Malpass wrote:
>
> I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Citrix but I thought this
> was something akin to remotely controlling another PC - except that the PC
> you're remotely controlling was virtual - is this wrong?   If I'm right,
> surely it means that all this wonderful Intel i5 power is effectively being
> used as a terminal and the speed we'll have is the speed of the machine
> we're controlling.
>
>
> If this is a remote service, then having just two people testing may not
> expose load limitations. We have to use a terminal server in Ireland - it's
> fine for a few people running xterms and web browsers, but really struggles
> when people start running huge databases.
>
> Simon
>
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>



-- 
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RC

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Michael Pavling 
On 19 July 2012 09:20, Rob Malpass  wrote:
> So what is Citrix and can anyone see why they may have set things up in this
> way?

What do your IT people say about why they have set things up this way?
I presume there could be all sorts of reasons... and all sorts of pros
and cons.

Have you discussed with them your specialist software (bespoke, I
assume, rather that OTS?), and your concerns that it won't work over
citrix?

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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Leszek Kobiernicki 1 
On 19/07/12 09:20, Rob Malpass wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
>  
>
> For my own education please, I need someone to explain a potentially
> far reaching decision made by our IT people at work
>
>  
>
> ( snip ) So what is Citrix and can anyone see why they may have set
> things up in this way?
>
>  
>
> Cheers
>
> Rob
>
>
>
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Hi Mate

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/C/Citrix_server.html

Home  > Citrix server


  Citrix server

A server solution that uses Microsoft Terminal Services
 software to
deliver Windows 
applications to PCs, Apple Macintosh computers, X terminals and UNIX
workstations. This enables users of those systems to access and use
those programs which are available to those using the Windows operating
system. Citrix servers use two technologies; WinFrame
 and Independent
Computing Architecture (ICA).

/See ICA .
See also WinFrame .
/

//What this means, is that your diagnosis of being compelled to revert
to dumb terminal access, is correct.  The companies advocating it, seem
to believe that with the increasing power of CPUs, they can persuade
businesses, that user access to the server delivering the virtualized
desktop, will be swift ( I wouldn't count on it, myself )

See also

https://www.citrix.com/virtualization/desktop-virtualization.html

( not very informative )

and

http://www.defcon1.org/citrix.html

( this is quite an old site, but fairly explanatory )

"

*  _What is Citrix?_*

Simply put, Citrix Metaframe allows you to run applications you have
at work from anywhere in the world or on your local area network (LAN).

( snip ) It does not matter if you're using a dialup modem,
DSL, ISDN, or T1 to access citrix remotely.

How does Citrix work?

We begin with either an enhanced version of Windows NT 4.0 (Terminal
Server Edition) or Windows 2000 with Terminal Services Installed.

Then, we add Citrix Metaframe. This product allows multiple users to
run multiple applications on the Citrix Server at the same time. When
you run applications on the Citrix Server the screen shots are sent to
your computer and, in return, your keyboard input and mouse movements
are sent to the Citrix Server.

How much bandwidth does it take?

The average connection uses 10K to 20K of bandwidth per connection.
Hence, a 28K dial-up modem is enough to access a Citrix Server.

What kind of operating system can I use to access Citrix?

DOS, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows CE (Thin Client), Windows NT 4.0,
Windows 2000, Unix, and Macintosh.


How fast of a computer do I need to access Citrix?

Virtually any personal computer can access Citrix (e.g., 386 to
Pentium 4). In fact, it does not matter how fast your computer is,
it will run with virtually the same speed on Citrix.


How do you get additional information about Citrix?

 www.bctinc.com/ 
 




So - CITRIX virtualizes the entitre desktop.  It's a way of
lockdown-controlling users,
like the diskless workstations, & thin clients madness, of the remoter
past ( late 1980s-
early 1990s ), which wasn't over-popular with either the users - or
ourselves ( SysAdmins )

Enterprizes seem to be being pushed by the money funding IT, into
depriving users
of their present ability to do things their own way, through Cloud,
Software-as-a-Service,
or this CITRIX stuff ( which the military is quite understandably,
rather big on )

If there's a way of avoiding CITRIX, for the Legacy Apps. you've got,
you may have to
make a Business Case, for them to continue as they are, as a statutory
exception,
thus preserving the users' current workflows, using the enterprize's
existing
Business Continuity model ..

Otherwise they probably will slow to a crawl.

Red Adair: " I baint but got 2 speeds.  If they don't like this one [
slow ],
then they sure as hell, won't like the other one " ..

Lesz
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them, will create them anew, physically and spiritually. Here is the
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bloo

Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Simon Reap 

On 19/07/12 09:20, Rob Malpass wrote:
I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Citrix but I thought 
this was something akin to remotely controlling another PC - except 
that the PC you're remotely controlling was virtual - is this wrong?   
If I'm right, surely it means that all this wonderful Intel i5 power 
is effectively being used as a terminal and the speed we'll have is 
the speed of the machine we're controlling.


If this is a remote service, then having just two people testing may not 
expose load limitations. We have to use a terminal server in Ireland - 
it's fine for a few people running xterms and web browsers, but really 
struggles when people start running huge databases.


Simon
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Re: [Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Alan Pope 

On 19/07/12 09:20, Rob Malpass wrote:

I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Citrix but I thought this
was something akin to remotely controlling another PC - except that the PC
you're remotely controlling was virtual - is this wrong?   If I'm right,
surely it means that all this wonderful Intel i5 power is effectively being
used as a terminal and the speed we'll have is the speed of the machine
we're controlling.



You've been asked to test something. Might be worth testing it and 
reporting back the real-world performance and issues then?


The remote machine may well be faster than your i5, especially if it's 
only running what you need, has access to fast(er) storage than your 
internal disk and has more RAM. I wouldn't assume that just because it's 
remote it has to be slow(er).



The reason I ask is there's some specialist software for the visually
impaired that I use which is never going to work over Citrix because it was
never designed to do so.   I have a nasty feeling that they're going to turn
around and say my software can't be used -  and that could have very far
reaching consequences for me.



So again, test it and report back.

Cheers,
--
Alan Pope
Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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[Hampshire] [OT] Citrix

2012-07-19 Thread Rob Malpass 
Hi all

 

For my own education please, I need someone to explain a potentially far
reaching decision made by our IT people at work

 

At present, we're still stuck on Windows XP and MS Office 2003.   The system
works quite well but is beginning to struggle with the big datasets I have
to handle.   So they've just bought Windows 7 PCs and the spec is pretty
good (Intel i5, 8Gb RAM).   The most bizarre thing is myself and my
colleague have been asked to test them as "power users" and the
implementation they've deployed is via a "Citrix container" - whatever that
is.

 

I freely admit to knowing next to nothing about Citrix but I thought this
was something akin to remotely controlling another PC - except that the PC
you're remotely controlling was virtual - is this wrong?   If I'm right,
surely it means that all this wonderful Intel i5 power is effectively being
used as a terminal and the speed we'll have is the speed of the machine
we're controlling.

 

The reason I ask is there's some specialist software for the visually
impaired that I use which is never going to work over Citrix because it was
never designed to do so.   I have a nasty feeling that they're going to turn
around and say my software can't be used -  and that could have very far
reaching consequences for me.

 

So what is Citrix and can anyone see why they may have set things up in this
way?

 

Cheers

Rob

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