Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Vic]

> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular
> as Windows in the desktop market.

Yes.

Not for a while, for sure, but eventually, GNU/Linux will be pervasive.
Android/Linux is already getting there.

I used to think this would take tens of years, but Microsoft seems to be
falling over itself to upset users lately...

> I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently
> am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority
> of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+
> with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go
> down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server
> 2012 admin certs.

As far as a career goes, knowing your way round the latest Windows Server
will help. Just don't expect it to be a path to instant riches - there are
many people out there with those qualifications. Unix-type skills
generally command a higher salary, although the work can be harder to
find.

> I
> actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking
> my way through the GUI in Windows.

Bear in mind that the CLI is not the only way to do things in Linux. It is
my preference, but it tends to frighten the horses if you do too much of
it in front of a customer.

> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for
> everyday use.

Fear.
Uncertainty.
Doubt.

> Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for
> the home user i.e same package manager and packages.

Because no-one can determine, for all mankind, what such a distribution
would be. Canonical has tried to do something like that, and many people
like their distribution. I'm not among that number, so if I get a choice,
I'll usually use something else.

For any preference you might have, I'll find you ten people who hate it
with a passion...

> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your
> average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or
> spending hours finding the solution into a community.

That's old, stinky bait someone's thrown you. It's incredibly rare to need
to do anything like that anymore. I frequently fix Windows driver problems
by using a Linux distribution to get the machine online to download the
necessary drivers...

> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often
> get a dismissive response.

That tends to be because someone thinks you're not trying. If you show
you've put the effort in, most (not all, obviously) of the community will
fall over itself to help (although some suggestions are not quite as
helpful as the poster though they would be). If your request comes over as
"my machine is broke, fix it", you'll get short shrift. It's just a case
of remembering that these people are putting in their valuable time and
skills to help out free of charge; they have no interest in becoming
someone's servant.

> Documentation is horrendous aswell

That's certainly true.

> So how did you guys learn Linux?

Found a rubbish old machine. Installed RHL on it. Thought up a few
projects to do with it.

> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows?

Several times :-)

> Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation.

Learn to break down complex problems into component parts. The "Unix Way"
is about having each piece of code do one thing, and do it well. You then
combine those components to create your natty $thing.

HTH

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Mike Dwerryhouse]

On 02/13/2013 04:31 PM, Ally Biggs wrote:

Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as 
Windows in the desktop market.

Not going to happen


Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal 
attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration.

I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am 
having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my 
thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the 
eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the 
Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin certs.
There are other Linux certifications. LPI is the other one that comes to 
mind, but RH seems to be the most recognised.


Has anyone been in a similar situation?
I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually 
feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way 
through the GUI in Windows.

Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I 
probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related tasks 
and use Win 7 for client tasks

The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have the 
skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for everyday 
use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for the home user 
i.e same package manager and packages.
1. Why does everybody have the "must use Windows" urge? Default choice, 
what they use at work, what their friends / family use. It feels like a 
safe choice. Anything else is for geeks.
 Also alien mind control. Have you seen Men in Black? Steve 
Balmer, huh? Not much of a disguise etc. 
2. Why don't developers standardise? It's not the nature of free 
software. Nobody in charge. Everybody has their own ideas of how to do 
stuff. I wouldn't have it any other way.


The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and 
something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average 
user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending hours 
finding the solution into a community.

The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be some 
kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole encyclopaedia 
of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often get a dismissive 
response.

Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the transition 
from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple of pages in 
you end up with the worlds worst headache.

So how did you guys learn Linux?
Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key areas to 
focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I go down the 
Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of 
war it is driving me mad :)
Most people learned by using it, bit by bit. Try different distros. Try 
different desktop environments


You can't learn everything at once - figure out how to do things that 
interest you, so software related to music, graphics, games, or whatever.


Use the command line, you'll get used to it. I'm constantly frustrated 
when GUI tools don't work the way I want them to. Shell scripts are 
amazingly useful for odd admin jobs.


Sent from my iPhone



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Lisi]

On Wednesday 13 February 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote:
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as
> Windows in the desktop market.

It will take a long while in the consumerist "west", but the developing 
countries are starting to use it.  (Brazil, China, India to name but a few - 
but a few who comprise a large percentage of the world population.

> Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I
> probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related
> tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.
>
> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for
> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for
> the home user i.e same package manager and packages.

Because it is free as in libre?  If I don't want to use Ubuntu (and I don't) I 
can just use something else.  Package managers are not all identical as you 
own.  But how will you standardise when things are free?  Vic would probably 
take up arms to support the rpm system, as I would the apt.  The important 
point is that we have the choice.

> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average
> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending
> hours finding the solution into a community.

There are several good GUI installers, and the shit hits the fan rather 
rarely.  There is a myth around that Linux drivers are impossible to 
find/load, but Windows ones are easy.  Last time i installed Windows XP (I 
lead a life that is blessedly free of Microsoft) I had to find, download and 
burn practically every driver separately.  It was a nightmare.  I have had 
the odd problem with Linux, but nothing like that.  Life is slightly more 
onerous since my chosen distro Debian decided that th installer had to be 
entirely free in both senses of the word, but there are still easy solutions.

> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often
> get a dismissive response.

In my experience, no-one expects anyone to know anything.  They may make 
incorrect assumptions, but mostly list members are extremely helpful.  You do 
get the occasional dismissive idiot, but they are not the norm and I haven't 
noticed that attitude on this list for some time.

Say what you have done to help tourself, and say that you would need help with 
any suggestion that needs the CLI, and you will get a lot of help.  Older 
people may forget that you have probably had very little experience of the 
CLI.  Those of us who are longest in the tooth had been using computers for 
some time before the GUI was invented.

> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.

You must have picked up the wrong books.  I reckon that if I can switch to 
Linux, anybody can.  There is a *very* easy book in the LUG library, I can't 
remember the name.  When you want to know what something is, look it up in a 
very easy book.  That will not give you the answer, but it will give you 
enough understanding to be able to look it up in something more informative.

I made the transition from Windows with an enormous sigh of relief.  No-one 
who has not had to live with Windows 95 can understand the true benefit of 
Linux.  My husband tells people:  "When she used Windows she was always 
getting angry with the computer.  Now she is using Linux she has to find 
something else to get angry about."  

> So how did you guys learn Linux?

Took the plunge and leant heavily on HantsLUG.  I found that they were 
endlessly patient and were prepared to say things in words of one syllable, 
and, if necessary, several times.  I'm a slow learner compared with many on 
this list, so I must frequently have driven them mad.

> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? 

Yes.  And I would think that many (most?) have.

Lisi


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Ally Biggs]

Than you for providing me with some insight :) I started with Windows 3.1 and 
used it since well apart from Windows ME, Vista and 8 didn't really get on with 
those. Windows 7 was pretty solid for everyday use. I never really had a issue 
with it and does everything I need it to do. Windows 8 I have heard if you turn 
off the metro and add the start menu back is a faster booting more stable 
version of 7 I may give it another go oneday. 

My first Linux Distro was Debian and then Ubuntu I am now using Red Hat. 
( centos)The best out of the box desktop experience I have had for ease of use 
so far would be Mint. I abandoned Ubuntu after they implemented unity I really 
couldn't get on with it. 

Do you ever think Microsoft would go Open source? Or release a minimal cut down 
version of windows and you pay to add the extras or am I'm talking nonsense 
because Billy Gates would be losing to much money. 

I see with there latest server products they have technologies like server core 
and powershell are they trying to become more like Linux with minimal headless 
server deployments and administration via scripting. 

What are your distros of choice and why? 

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Feb 2013, at 17:34, "Lisi"  wrote:

> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote:
>> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as
>> Windows in the desktop market.
> 
> It will take a long while in the consumerist "west", but the developing 
> countries are starting to use it.  (Brazil, China, India to name but a few - 
> but a few who comprise a large percentage of the world population.
> 
>> Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I
>> probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related
>> tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.
>> 
>> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have
>> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for
>> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for
>> the home user i.e same package manager and packages.
> 
> Because it is free as in libre?  If I don't want to use Ubuntu (and I don't) 
> I 
> can just use something else.  Package managers are not all identical as you 
> own.  But how will you standardise when things are free?  Vic would probably 
> take up arms to support the rpm system, as I would the apt.  The important 
> point is that we have the choice.
> 
>> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
>> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average
>> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending
>> hours finding the solution into a community.
> 
> There are several good GUI installers, and the shit hits the fan rather 
> rarely.  There is a myth around that Linux drivers are impossible to 
> find/load, but Windows ones are easy.  Last time i installed Windows XP (I 
> lead a life that is blessedly free of Microsoft) I had to find, download and 
> burn practically every driver separately.  It was a nightmare.  I have had 
> the odd problem with Linux, but nothing like that.  Life is slightly more 
> onerous since my chosen distro Debian decided that th installer had to be 
> entirely free in both senses of the word, but there are still easy solutions.
> 
>> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
>> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
>> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often
>> get a dismissive response.
> 
> In my experience, no-one expects anyone to know anything.  They may make 
> incorrect assumptions, but mostly list members are extremely helpful.  You do 
> get the occasional dismissive idiot, but they are not the norm and I haven't 
> noticed that attitude on this list for some time.
> 
> Say what you have done to help tourself, and say that you would need help 
> with 
> any suggestion that needs the CLI, and you will get a lot of help.  Older 
> people may forget that you have probably had very little experience of the 
> CLI.  Those of us who are longest in the tooth had been using computers for 
> some time before the GUI was invented.
> 
>> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
>> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
>> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.
> 
> You must have picked up the wrong books.  I reckon that if I can switch to 
> Linux, anybody can.  There is a *very* easy book in the LUG library, I can't 
> remember the name.  When you want to know what something is, look it up in a 
> very easy book.  That will not give you the answer, but it will give you 
> enough understanding to be able to look it up in something more informative.
> 
> I made the transition from Windows with an enormous sigh of relief.  No-one 
>

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Michael Daffin]

On 13 February 2013 16:31, Ally Biggs  wrote:
>
> I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I
> actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking
> my way through the GUI in Windows.
>
Then it is worth considering following the path you find more enjoyable, at
least then you will like your job better and thus work harder at it.

The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for
> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for
> the home user i.e same package manager and packages.
>
As others have said, this is because no two people want the same thing.
Allot of people love Ubuntu, which is probably the closest thing to what
you describe, but allot of others hate it and refuse to use it.


> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average
> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending
> hours finding the solution into a community.
>
I don't see this with most of the modern consumer focused distros out
there, ubuntu and similar work very hard to make all hardware just work out
the box with very little fiddling  Unlike windows where you need to get the
latest driver from the manufacture before you can even get the device to
work. Most of the problems these days are with devices
from manufacturers that refuse to play well with linux, there is not much
that linux can do about these but despite that they do try hard to get
things to work. Since using linux I have had far less problems with drivers
then I ever had with windows, I have never needed to purge and reinstall a
driver nor do I even need to mess around with config files anymore.

The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often
> get a dismissive response.
>
This is not true, or rather it entirely depends on which
linux communality you are part of. For example, the community on
http://www.kubuntuforums.net is very very helpful and friendly, quite often
going that extra mile to help people understand the problem and help them
learn more. But other communities such as the Gentoo one can be allot
harsher as they expect you to be a more advanced user to begin with.

Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.
>
Checkout the Archlinux wiki, it is the best linux wiki around for finding
out how something works generally in a very easy to understand fashion. If
you are intrested in learning how linux works, rather then just how to use
linux I highly recomend attempting to install archlinux in a vm. This will
teach you allot about how other distros do things as it does not hide the
technical details from the end user, but also keeps
their architecture simple and easy to understand. Even just reading their
beginners guide (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners'_Guide) you
will learn allow about how linux works, which will help you to understand
other systems as well.


> So how did you guys learn Linux?
>
Mainly by trial and lots of error :D


> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key
> areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I
> go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me
> resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :)

 All of my computers now run Linux and only Linux and I am much happier for
it, Linux can do everything that a windows computer can do and more... Even
mainstream gaming is coming to lieux thanks to Valve and Steam and Linux
has an alternative for most windows software out there that is often even
better then the windows equivalent :) You should focus on what aspects of
the system you like, there is no reliance on understanding any one side of
linux before you learn another. Though having a good understanding of the
shell is a good place to start.

Personally I like the KDE environment, so use distros that support this
well, I have found kubuntu to be good in the past, but now use Archlinux
almost exclusively as I find its simple design and transparency much nicer
for a power user and I can now get it to do what ever I want will little to
no fuss.
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Tim Brocklehurst]

Some nice fodder for the debate here! Perhaps you'd like to speak Ally.

On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote:
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as
> Windows in the desktop market.

Depends what the "desktop" market is, and what you intend to do with it. I see 
a sort of power-user/home-user split being driven by Microsoft, but I don't 
know where this will get them. I use both (Linux & windows) at work, mainly 
for Legacy reasons and 1 piece of CAD software. At home I use Linux (more-or-
less) exclusively.

> Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal
> attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration.
> 
> I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently
> am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority
> of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+
> with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go
> down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server
> 2012 admin certs.

Do both if you can. If not, improve your Linux skills. However, you may find 
yourself swearing at Windows servers. Also take note that both these systems 
are not things that can be learnt quickly (Some time ago I estimated that the 
kernel took 2000 man-years to write, so you can't expect it to be quick to 
learn). You can only learn about parts of these systems by solving your 
specific problems.
 
> Has anyone been in a similar situation?
Not really, the decision was pretty clear for me when I lost a load of work at 
Uni. Regardless of the quality of Linux I was moving from XP.

> I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually
> feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way
> through the GUI in Windows.

I like the CLI; also scripting.

> Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I
> probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related
> tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.

Depens what the client tasks are. You may find that you don't need Windows at 
all.

> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for
> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for
> the home user i.e same package manager and packages.

Awareness? Learning curve? Pre-installation? And many users don't care what 
they use, as long as it works for them.

> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your
> average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or
> spending hours finding the solution into a community.

As others have said, that's rare, and, if they're running Windows, often the 
point at which a home user buys a new computer. You are using Linux and there 
IS a helpful community, but it doesn't mean that there are no problems, only 
that there is a chance of fixing things.

> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often
> get a dismissive response.

I try not to be dismissive, but an amount of initial effort goes a long way. 
Think of it like helping a student do homework. Are you willing to give 
advice? yes. Are you willing to do it for them? No.

> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.

Yes and no. The documentation that is there is often quite good in many cases 
(I cite the QT4 documentation as the best ever written, and the MSDN 
documentation as some of the worst, second only to CodeGear (formerly Borland 
C++ Builder), which says "See the MSDN Docs" throughout). However, it might 
not be simple, and that's often because what you're doing isn't simple. One 
thing to note here is that error messages in Linux are often a lot more 
helpful than they are in Windows.

> So how did you guys learn Linux? & Has anyone else made the transition
> from Windows? 

I needed to do an interfacing job, and I'd just lost a load of work in XP, so 
there was some impetus. From there, I tried to understand and solve problems 
as they arose. Learning happens over time.

>Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation.
> Need some inspiration if I go down the Linux route would I be missing
> out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :)

Command line is important (obviously) but understand your shell (e.g. bash), 
and how to script things.
Networking is also important, not only at the interface level, but doing som

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[john lewis]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 +
Ally Biggs  wrote:

> So how did you guys learn Linux? 

by installing it and using it!!

> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key
> areas to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration
> if I go down the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please
> help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :) 

I have never used Windows on any computer I have owned (other than the
ones my wife uses and I have to fix occasionally for her) I migrated
from CP/M to OS/2 to an early version of Linux on a stack of floppies
I'd downloaded.

I made a permanent move from OS/2 Warp when IBM decided not to support
home users any longer and have never regretted the move. As most
oldtimers in HantsLUG know I am a bit of a Debian fan(atic).

I use the command line for most admin tasks, I do use gui tools
from time to time but mc is my best friend ;-) 

I am not a programmer of any sort and am only just about capable of
managing my vps at Bitfolk without needing much help. But I like it
that Linux avoids the need to me to pay the Microsoft tax! 

Having said that I do have a Mac Mini and recently paid for an upgrade
to OS/X Snow Leopard. I don't use it a lot but it was a gift and it is
enough like a unix box for me to find it acceptable.

-- 
John Lewis
Debian & the GeneWeb genealogical data server

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Daniel Llewellyn]

I learned initially by running web services and then by
implementing a small-scale Industrial Heater (aka a High Performance
Compute Cluster)

As others have said, what you learn depends entirely what you try to
achieve, and it's the trying to achieve something that you need to focus
on. Find something that you're not doing now that you think would be "kinda
neat" and then try to work out a way of doing it. It's this sort of
mentality that developers embody, and as such I think it is the kind of
philosophy to exibit that will get the best results back from "the
community".

About me: I'm a Web Developer who uses Linux (Ubuntu) 99% of the time for
work purposes. At home I am often found using OS X but love that I can
still pull-up a bash terminal on that. Other times at home I'm on Ubuntu
again. I mainly program in PHP and use shell scripting to support my
development work-flow. All work's multitude of servers are based on Linux
(Gentoo, but I'm spearheading a movement to get these legacy systems
replaced with Ubuntu), using a variety of technologies such as Xen, DRBD,
Apache SOLr, Apache HTTP, PHP and mySQL.



On 13 February 2013 18:45, Tim Brocklehurst wrote:

> Some nice fodder for the debate here! Perhaps you'd like to speak Ally.
>
> On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 Ally Biggs wrote:
> > Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular
> as
> > Windows in the desktop market.
>
> Depends what the "desktop" market is, and what you intend to do with it. I
> see
> a sort of power-user/home-user split being driven by Microsoft, but I don't
> know where this will get them. I use both (Linux & windows) at work, mainly
> for Legacy reasons and 1 piece of CAD software. At home I use Linux
> (more-or-
> less) exclusively.
>
> > Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal
> > attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration.
> >
> > I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently
> > am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority
> > of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+
> > with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go
> > down the Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server
> > 2012 admin certs.
>
> Do both if you can. If not, improve your Linux skills. However, you may
> find
> yourself swearing at Windows servers. Also take note that both these
> systems
> are not things that can be learnt quickly (Some time ago I estimated that
> the
> kernel took 2000 man-years to write, so you can't expect it to be quick to
> learn). You can only learn about parts of these systems by solving your
> specific problems.
>
> > Has anyone been in a similar situation?
> Not really, the decision was pretty clear for me when I lost a load of
> work at
> Uni. Regardless of the quality of Linux I was moving from XP.
>
> > I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I
> actually
> > feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way
> > through the GUI in Windows.
>
> I like the CLI; also scripting.
>
> > Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I
> > probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related
> > tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.
>
> Depens what the client tasks are. You may find that you don't need Windows
> at
> all.
>
> > The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you
> have
> > the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more
> for
> > everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution
> for
> > the home user i.e same package manager and packages.
>
> Awareness? Learning curve? Pre-installation? And many users don't care what
> they use, as long as it works for them.
>
> > The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> > something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your
> > average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or
> > spending hours finding the solution into a community.
>
> As others have said, that's rare, and, if they're running Windows, often
> the
> point at which a home user buys a new computer. You are using Linux and
> there
> IS a helpful community, but it doesn't mean that there are no problems,
> only
> that there is a chance of fixing things.
>
> > The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to
> be
> > some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> > encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you
> often
> > get a dismissive response.
>
> I try not to be dismissive, but an amount of initial effort goes a long
> way.
> Think of it like helping a student do homework. Are you willing to give
> advice? yes. Are you willing to do it for them? No.
>
> > Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you ar

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 +
Ally Biggs  wrote:

Hello Ally,

>The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan
>and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your
>average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal
>or spending hours finding the solution into a community. 

The /real/ (at least, IMO) problem is that nobody needs any
qualifications to be able to buy and/or use a computer.  I can think of
few, if any, equally complex pieces of technology that do not require
some sort of required learning.  Most often with a test of competence
that needs to be passed before one is allowed to go solo.  Cars,
aeroplanes, you name it...

Microsoft and their ilk like to hide the nuts and bolts of their systems
because it means a whole industry is created, purely to rectify the
horrendous cock-ups many of the computer illiterate unwashed will
perpetrate.  Computers are difficult.  GUIs just make it *look* simple.
Frankly, the worst thing to happen to computers was the WIMP interface.
At that point, it became inevitable that there would be shedloads or
morons running computers, most of whom I wouldn't trust to run their own
baths.

LUG (well, any computer group really) members are, of course, not in the
category I just outlined.  Group members are quite knowledgeable when it
comes to computers.  Some of them prodigiously so.  Many have particular
speciality skills too, which allows them to assist those that ask for
help when they become stuck.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
Life's short, don't make a mess of it
No Time To Be 21 - The Adverts


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Alan Pope]

Hi Ally,

On 13/02/13 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote:

Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as
popular as Windows in the desktop market.



Given Windows has ~90%+ market share, I fail to see how mathematically 
any other distro can be "as popular" as Windows without Windows 
disappearing completely. Won't happen.


However if your question was "will there be a day when Linux has 
comparable market share to Windows on the desktop" I'd probably say no, 
but be hopeful that we can get a better chunk of the market than we 
currently have.



Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially
I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server
related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.



I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had 
only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses 
and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and 
allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.


I'd no sooner finished my tea when he said "ok, I think I have got it 
all" and I left. I've so far had two support requests from him, which 
was to clarify a webcam issue with Skype and to confirm that he should 
be installing updates when prompted to. He's still using it.


One persons nightmare is another persons dream.


The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you
have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being
adopted more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers
standardise a distribution for the home user i.e same package manager
and packages.


Because history, ego, momentum and coprorate requirements.


The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan
and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added
your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a
terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community.



Same goes for Windows.

It's a giant misconception that "Windows = works", "Linux = OMG! It's 
broken, I need a nerd!".


Ordinary people who use Windows have just the same anxiety about their 
systems as ordinary people who use Linux. They will speak to a techy 
nerd at work, or someone in their family for support. Same goes for a 
non-expert using a smartphone (of any ilk) for the first time.


I still get requests for Windows support from my father in law, some 
years after I told him I didn't want to support it anymore. Some of 
these issues (poor wifi connection, bad printer support, video driver 
issues) are _exactly_ the same issues that we have on Linux.


The way to fix the issue differs, but it's still the same warm body 
wearing a geeky t-shirt who fixes it, irrespective of the OS or hardware 
involved.



The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you
to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the
whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or
guidance you often get a dismissive response.



Those people are dicks. Avoid them. :)


Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.



Depends on the book.

This is a good one.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubuntu-Made-Easy-Project-Based-Introduction/dp/1593274254/ref=sr_1_1



So how did you guys learn Linux?


Installed it and played with it for oh, uhm 15 years or so. Still not an 
expert.


Cheers,
--
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Lisi]

On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote:
> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had
> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses
> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and
> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.

When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I 
printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at 
the socket on the wall.  The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out 
your Wisden's and read it for a bit".  I then gave him a run through.  After 
3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he 
said: "I don't have to.  It just works."  More recently he said: "Why do 
people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?"

Lisi

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Ally Biggs]

Thank you for all your replies has kind of made me realise that my true passion 
is with Linux. I am going to work through my Linux+ videos, thinking about 
having Centos running as the main host with KVM running Debian and using 
something lightweight like LXDE or XFCE on the Deb box. 

I think my career goal is to be able to deploy Linux based solutions in a 
Windows environment for small start ups / charities. So the eventual which is a 
long way off :) is to develop a solid understanding of how to replace windows 
networking services and deploy Linux server. 

Vic mentioned earlier to use both the GUi and Cli which I will be doing as Red 
Hat seems to have some pretty good inbuilt GUI tools for configuration.

What are people's thoughts on packages like Webmin? Better not to become to 
reliant. Or specialised distros such as SME Server or Zentyal

What do you run Distro wise and why? 

I have to many questions :) I really should attend a meeting I could talk about 
this allday.   

Sent from my iPhone

On 13 Feb 2013, at 22:32, "Lisi"  wrote:

> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote:
>> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had
>> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses
>> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and
>> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.
> 
> When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I 
> printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at 
> the socket on the wall.  The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out 
> your Wisden's and read it for a bit".  I then gave him a run through.  After 
> 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he 
> said: "I don't have to.  It just works."  More recently he said: "Why do 
> people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?"
> 
> Lisi
> 
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Michael Daffin]

On 13 Feb 2013 22:31, "Lisi"  wrote:
> I commented on the fact, and he said: "I don't have to.  It just works."
 More recently he said: "Why do people think that Linux is hard when it is
so easy?"

This is a testament to how much work has gone into Linux in the last few
years and how outdated most peoples views are about it.
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Peter Salisbury]

A fun at-home project to amaze yourself and friends is to download
XAMPP[1] and use it to run a Drupal[2] CMS web-site on an ageing
laptop. Amazing! Good preparation for the sort of thing you mention.
ATB, Peter

[1] http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html
[2] http://drupal.org/

On 13 February 2013 23:17, Ally Biggs  wrote:
> Thank you for all your replies has kind of made me realise that my true 
> passion is with Linux. I am going to work through my Linux+ videos, thinking 
> about having Centos running as the main host with KVM running Debian and 
> using something lightweight like LXDE or XFCE on the Deb box.
>
> I think my career goal is to be able to deploy Linux based solutions in a 
> Windows environment for small start ups / charities. So the eventual which is 
> a long way off :) is to develop a solid understanding of how to replace 
> windows networking services and deploy Linux server.
>
> Vic mentioned earlier to use both the GUi and Cli which I will be doing as 
> Red Hat seems to have some pretty good inbuilt GUI tools for configuration.
>
> What are people's thoughts on packages like Webmin? Better not to become to 
> reliant. Or specialised distros such as SME Server or Zentyal
>
> What do you run Distro wise and why?
>
> I have to many questions :) I really should attend a meeting I could talk 
> about this allday.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 13 Feb 2013, at 22:32, "Lisi"  wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote:
>>> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had
>>> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses
>>> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and
>>> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.
>>
>> When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I
>> printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at
>> the socket on the wall.  The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out
>> your Wisden's and read it for a bit".  I then gave him a run through.  After
>> 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he
>> said: "I don't have to.  It just works."  More recently he said: "Why do
>> people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?"
>>
>> Lisi
>>
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Leszek Kobiernicki 1]

On 13/02/13 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote:
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as 
> Windows in the desktop market. 
>
> Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal 
> attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration. 
>
> I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am 
> having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my 
> thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the 
> eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the 
> Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin 
> certs. 
>
> Has anyone been in a similar situation?
> I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually 
> feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way 
> through the GUI in Windows. 
>
> Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially I 
> probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server related 
> tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks. 
>
> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have 
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for 
> everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for 
> the home user i.e same package manager and packages. 
>
> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and 
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average 
> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending 
> hours finding the solution into a community. 
>
> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be 
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole 
> encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance you often 
> get a dismissive response. 
>
> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the 
> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a couple 
> of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.
>
> So how did you guys learn Linux? 
> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows? Or what are the key areas 
> to focus on to develop a good foundation. Need some inspiration if I go down 
> the Linux route would I be missing out on much? Please help me resolve the 
> tug of war it is driving me mad :) 
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
Yes indeed.  I chose hardware specialization, reasoning that all kinds
of software is developed, to run on hardware, which is primary, and
relatively easily replaceable, eg. if your OS of choice, won't wear a
particular graphics card, or the fixed disc is too small ..  So a
hardware specialist basically builds & rebuilds, until they find a good
mix, and matches the software to that.  It's the hobbyist's approach,
originating in garages and sheds

Linux is growing - but this is not helped -- rather, hindered, on the
one hand, by egotistical showoff-exclusivity, and on the other hand, by
the lack of community-minded publicists, prepared to give their
precious, irreplaceable time & effort to helping Win-addicts kick their
habit, for a far smoother, faster, more device-friendly Linux OS, which
doesn't burn out the hardware. 

The community of Linux users need to move beyond cleverness, and
obsession with technicity, back to a humane concern and fellow-feeling
for the as-yet ignorant .. 

We were all there once.  But dependency is crippling.  So we climbed out
of that pit 

Last week a massive nationwide hacking campaign erupted.  The only
platform seriously affected, was the M$ WinDoze one.  Linux installs
seem, so far, relatively unaffected. 

Whether this is because journalling filesystems are less well-known to
the hacktivistes, is not yet clear.  But the message is: the OS of the
millions, is grossly insecure.  Routers notwithstanding !  Files
vanished from drives.  Enormous clusters of unmoveable files had
appeared, and were detected.  An IDS is now essential, if a Win system
is connected to the net.  And that will slow everything to a crawl ..

Everyone I know, is in process of being warned to ditch their Win
installs, & repair immediately to Linux.  ( Free help is gradually being
provided )

It is unclear whether the corporates have grasped this.  Having been
asked, government doesn't seem to know who is responsible. 
Investigations are currently under way.  The findings may well be kept
under wraps. 

SysAdmins have difficult choices facing them.  Do they continue
supporting what are effectively, legacy ( inherently-insecure ) OSS,
acquired in cheap deals, or do they advocate more secure systems,
hardening them with encryptions, and all the other paraphernalia of
statutory Paranoia Inc. ?

About a decade ago, CRYPTOME posted details of several of the NSA hacker
holes in the Win registry.  None of this ever seemed to affect corporate
policie

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Keith Edmunds]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 +, bluechr...@hotmail.co.uk said:

> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular
> as Windows in the desktop market. 

Does it matter? Google runs on Linux; Amazon runs on Linux; there is
considerable pressure from Government for more Public Sector Linux
adoption. It isn't going away any time soon.

> The majority of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting
> with Linux+ with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. 

Why do you want Linux qualifications? It's a serious question. If the
company you have decided you want to work for has said they'll only
consider those with an appropriate Linux qualification, fair enough - but
I suspect you haven't chosen who you want to work for. So start with that.
Research the kinds of companies you want to work for. Contact them.
Convince them that you are utterly determined to work with Linux, but you
currently lack experience and qualifications, and ask their advice. If you
can, arrange an informal chat with a manager there. Ask if you can do a
week's work experience there. When you know what is required to get the
job you want with the company you want, pursue that.

> I would say that I enjoy Linux more

Then don't work with Windows. If you do nothing else, do work that you
love.

> So how did you guys learn Linux? 

By using it. By setting myself challenges, and solving them. By improving
some of the documentation. By breaking it and fixing it.

> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows?

Yes.

> Sent from my iPhone

Not that dedicated to Linux then, are you? First job, then: find out how
to stop your iPhone telling everyone you're using one. I'm serious. We get
people applying for jobs, and sending CVs in in Word format. That doesn't
(yet) automatically rule them out, but it tells us a lot about them before
we've even looked at the CV.
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Edward Beckmann]

Dear all

I just wanted to thank Ally for publicly asking the oft-debated with some
good points, then Vic for starting the replies going with an excellent and
understanding response pitched at just the right level.

Thank you to the rest of the responders so far - very informative and
varying opinions, yet lacking any of the sniping or sometimes entrenched
views that can sometimes creep in.

A great welcome to any new members to the forum - have a good day everyone.

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Gordon Scott]

On 14/02/2013 02:22, Keith Edmunds wrote:
We get people applying for jobs, and sending CVs in in Word format. 
That doesn't (yet) automatically rule them out, but it tells us a lot 
about them before we've even looked at the CV. 


Hm, I should defend those people.
Most of the employment agencies pretty much demand CVs in Word format 
and seem unable to cope with anything else, so one is pretty much 
obliged to use Word (OK, OpenOffice/LibraOffice will export pretty 
well).  Nobody wants to make multiple copies, though many of us will. 
Lots of places even object to pdf files.


On the other hand. if you're applying direct to a Linux company, not 
using Linux tools does seem like a silly oversight!


Gordon.

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Chris Malton]

On 14/02/13 09:35, Gordon Scott wrote:

On 14/02/2013 02:22, Keith Edmunds wrote:
We get people applying for jobs, and sending CVs in in Word format. 
That doesn't (yet) automatically rule them out, but it tells us a lot 
about them before we've even looked at the CV. 


Hm, I should defend those people.
Most of the employment agencies pretty much demand CVs in Word format 
and seem unable to cope with anything else, so one is pretty much 
obliged to use Word (OK, OpenOffice/LibraOffice will export pretty 
well).  Nobody wants to make multiple copies, though many of us will. 
Lots of places even object to pdf files.
I know the feeling, my CV is part-compiled by LaTeX to PDF - and 
unfortunately this is incompatible with many people.  I got told 
yesterday that I couldn't apply for a job because my CV wasn't in Word 
format. and I was applying for a job as a Linux System 
Administrator.


Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered to 
my detriment


Chris




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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Alan Pope]

On 14/02/13 09:52, Chris Malton wrote:

I know the feeling, my CV is part-compiled by LaTeX to PDF - and
unfortunately this is incompatible with many people.  I got told
yesterday that I couldn't apply for a job because my CV wasn't in Word
format. and I was applying for a job as a Linux System
Administrator.

Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered to
my detriment



The agencies have databases in which they keep their candidates. Those 
databases often only have one import option - "Word Doc". So while it's 
easy to point the finger and laugh or berate the agency for requesting a 
Word Doc, they're just using the tools they have. The vast majority of 
people applying for jobs are okay with this and will submit in that format.


Cheers,
--
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Michael Daffin]

I quite like storing my cv in markdown, it's plain text and easy to read
even in the raw format, easy to version control unlike compressed formats
like word and you can convert it to many different formats including html
and pdf and possibly word (if not you can always copy and paste).
On 14 Feb 2013 10:04, "Alan Pope"  wrote:

> On 14/02/13 09:52, Chris Malton wrote:
>
>> I know the feeling, my CV is part-compiled by LaTeX to PDF - and
>> unfortunately this is incompatible with many people.  I got told
>> yesterday that I couldn't apply for a job because my CV wasn't in Word
>> format. and I was applying for a job as a Linux System
>> Administrator.
>>
>> Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered to
>> my detriment
>>
>>
> The agencies have databases in which they keep their candidates. Those
> databases often only have one import option - "Word Doc". So while it's
> easy to point the finger and laugh or berate the agency for requesting a
> Word Doc, they're just using the tools they have. The vast majority of
> people applying for jobs are okay with this and will submit in that format.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Alan Pope
> Engineering Manager
>
> Canonical - Product Strategy
> +44 (0) 7973 620 164
> alan.p...@canonical.com
> http://ubuntu.com/
>
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Vic]

> Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered to
> my detriment

Think yourself lucky. I had an agent strip an entire page from my CV once,
and had the interviewer repeatedly complain that I'd done nothing for 3
years after University.

I lost count of the number of times I had to say "you're missing a
page...". In the end, I figured I didn't actually want to work for someone
that couldn't take on such a basic factoid.

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Chris Liddell]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:53:06 - (GMT)
"Vic"  wrote:

> 
> > Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered
> > to my detriment
> 
> Think yourself lucky. I had an agent strip an entire page from my CV
> once, and had the interviewer repeatedly complain that I'd done
> nothing for 3 years after University.

I don't like using Word (mainly) for that reason. I quite understand
wanting to tailor a CV for a given job, but I would prefer if the agent
would contact me, and have me do the tailoring - having the agents do
it seems to open up considerable scope for abuse.

... for example, I attended an interview a few years ago where the
interviewer asked me to outline my C++ and ObjectiveC experience, which
it seemed had been mysteriously added to the C experience I originally
listed, somewhere between leaving me and arriving at the interviewer's
hands.

After we'd cleared up the confusion (and established I was not a
suitable candidate!), he told me this was not the first time that
particular agency had done something like that but, despite complaints,
his company's HR dept insisted on going on accepting CVs from them. In
retrospect, I figured I'd had a lucky escape!

Ho-hum.

Chris



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Michael Pavling]

On 14 February 2013 10:53, Vic  wrote:

>
> > Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I discovered to
> > my detriment
>
> Think yourself lucky. I had an agent strip an entire page from my CV once,
> and had the interviewer repeatedly complain that I'd done nothing for 3
> years after University.
>
>
I *always* take a couple of hard-copies of my CV to interviews, and hand
them out when we first sit down.
The agencies redact and reformat. I'd rather that prospective employers
have the information as I intended it.
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Jack Knight]

On 2013-02-14 12:18, Chris Liddell wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:53:06 - (GMT)
"Vic"  wrote:



> Other companies take PDFs and strip all formatting, as I 
discovered

> to my detriment

Think yourself lucky. I had an agent strip an entire page from my CV
once, and had the interviewer repeatedly complain that I'd done
nothing for 3 years after University.


I don't like using Word (mainly) for that reason. I quite understand
wanting to tailor a CV for a given job, but I would prefer if the 
agent

would contact me, and have me do the tailoring - having the agents do
it seems to open up considerable scope for abuse.

... for example, I attended an interview a few years ago where the
interviewer asked me to outline my C++ and ObjectiveC experience, 
which
it seemed had been mysteriously added to the C experience I 
originally
listed, somewhere between leaving me and arriving at the 
interviewer's

hands.

After we'd cleared up the confusion (and established I was not a
suitable candidate!), he told me this was not the first time that
particular agency had done something like that but, despite 
complaints,
his company's HR dept insisted on going on accepting CVs from them. 
In

retrospect, I figured I'd had a lucky escape!

Ho-hum.

Chris


We had an agency on our "preferred supplier" list who turned out be be 
using us to screen candidates for another company, every time one got to 
final interview stage they ended up taking another job with a well known 
broadcasting company.


When we found out what they were doing (thanks to feedback from a 
couple of the interviewees) they were "struck off".



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-13 17:31, Lisi wrote:

On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote:
I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who 
had
only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of 
viruses

and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and
allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.


When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original 
technophobe, I
printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn 
it on at
the socket on the wall.  The socket has a red sticker on it." and 
"take out
your Wisden's and read it for a bit".  I then gave him a run through. 
After
3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the 
fact, and he
said: "I don't have to.  It just works."  More recently he said: "Why 
do

people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?"

Lisi
...and it's getting even easier, ne' the Chromebook.  (groan issues 
from the collective group)  But it's true.  It Linux Jim, but not as we 
know it.  A large percentage of the MS Windows using public have waken 
up to the fact that they don't need a 8-core i7, with a 2-gig video 
card, and SSD, and 16 gigs of RAM, and a big screened retina display to 
browse the web and read their e-mail.  The tablet boom-bubble has showed 
many another way.  Microsoft no longer owns the end-user experience: 
think iPads, smartPhones, BYOD at work.


...and it's not just PCs, tablets, and phones that run Linux.  Linux! 
Coming to a TV near you soon!  and message from Intel, Apple, and 
Google.  It will be like the Chromebook.  Almost impossible to see the 
Linux bones, but still Linux under the skin.  RMS will hate it.



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Benjie Gillam]

The TV I bought way back in '08 runs Linux beneath the hood. I didn't know this 
until I noticed all the legal notices at the end of the instruction manual... 
I've not tried hacking into it yet, waiting until I can afford to replace it...

On 14 Feb 2013, at 15:06, j...@osml.eu wrote:

> On 2013-02-13 17:31, Lisi wrote:
>> On Wednesday 13 February 2013 22:02:32 Alan Pope wrote:
>>> I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who had
>>> only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of viruses
>>> and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started guide and
>>> allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of Ubuntu.
>> 
>> When I installed and set up Linux for my husband, the original technophobe, I
>> printed out a sheet of instructions which included things like "turn it on at
>> the socket on the wall.  The socket has a red sticker on it." and "take out
>> your Wisden's and read it for a bit".  I then gave him a run through. After
>> 3 weeks, when he had not once asked for help, I commented on the fact, and he
>> said: "I don't have to.  It just works."  More recently he said: "Why do
>> people think that Linux is hard when it is so easy?"
>> 
>> Lisi
> ...and it's getting even easier, ne' the Chromebook.  (groan issues from the 
> collective group)  But it's true.  It Linux Jim, but not as we know it.  A 
> large percentage of the MS Windows using public have waken up to the fact 
> that they don't need a 8-core i7, with a 2-gig video card, and SSD, and 16 
> gigs of RAM, and a big screened retina display to browse the web and read 
> their e-mail.  The tablet boom-bubble has showed many another way.  Microsoft 
> no longer owns the end-user experience: think iPads, smartPhones, BYOD at 
> work.
> 
> ...and it's not just PCs, tablets, and phones that run Linux.  Linux! Coming 
> to a TV near you soon!  and message from Intel, Apple, and Google.  It will 
> be like the Chromebook.  Almost impossible to see the Linux bones, but still 
> Linux under the skin.  RMS will hate it.
> 
> 
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-13 17:02, Alan Pope wrote:

Hi Ally,

On 13/02/13 16:31, Ally Biggs wrote:

Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as
popular as Windows in the desktop market.



Given Windows has ~90%+ market share, I fail to see how
mathematically any other distro can be "as popular" as Windows 
without

Windows disappearing completely. Won't happen.

However if your question was "will there be a day when Linux has
comparable market share to Windows on the desktop" I'd probably say
no, but be hopeful that we can get a better chunk of the market than
we currently have.


I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many, 
will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network 
Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser tab 
for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a browser 
tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \


Chromebooks can do a lot of things, but they can do many things that 
many end users want to do.




Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging 
initially

I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server
related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.



I recently (1.5 years ago) installed Ubuntu for a retired chap who
had only ever used Windows. He requested it because he was sick of
viruses and slow-downs of Windows. I printed out a getting started
guide and allocated ~2 hours to walk him through the basics of 
Ubuntu.


I'd no sooner finished my tea when he said "ok, I think I have got it
all" and I left. I've so far had two support requests from him, which
was to clarify a webcam issue with Skype and to confirm that he 
should

be installing updates when prompted to. He's still using it.

One persons nightmare is another persons dream.

The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if 
you

have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being
adopted more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers
standardise a distribution for the home user i.e same package 
manager

and packages.


Because history, ego, momentum and coprorate requirements.


The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan
and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added
your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a
terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community.


Enter the Internet Computing Device: a Chromebook.  Want the latest 
version of your wordprocessor.  Just refresh the browser window with a 
document in it.  Upgrade the OS.  Power down you Chromebook, then power 
it up.  What package manager.  Chromebook:  I'll take care of that for 
you while you just get one with what you want to do.


Gosh!  I'm beginning to sound like a Linux heretic, but I'm not an 
apostate!




Same goes for Windows.

It's a giant misconception that "Windows = works", "Linux = OMG! It's
broken, I need a nerd!".


Chromebook:  Where's the bigfg blue 'E'?  ;-)



Ordinary people who use Windows have just the same anxiety about
their systems as ordinary people who use Linux. They will speak to a
techy nerd at work, or someone in their family for support. Same goes
for a non-expert using a smartphone (of any ilk) for the first time.

I still get requests for Windows support from my father in law, some
years after I told him I didn't want to support it anymore. Some of
these issues (poor wifi connection, bad printer support, video driver
issues) are _exactly_ the same issues that we have on Linux.

The way to fix the issue differs, but it's still the same warm body
wearing a geeky t-shirt who fixes it, irrespective of the OS or
hardware involved.


Connecting to a password protected Wifi hotspot is about the most 
difficult task a Chromebook user will ever encounter.  You have to type 
in a password!  Gosh that difficult.


The Chromebooks 'remembers' the password and the hotspot.  Next you go 
there, is just connects and resumes what ever you were doing when you 
closed the lid and put it into sleep mode.





The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you
to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting 
the

whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or
guidance you often get a dismissive response.



Those people are dicks. Avoid them. :)


There is a simple CLI for ssh.  I would add: "for now"  It's a 'bug' I 
expect to get fixed soon.


There is also 'dev' mode.  Drop into it, and all the bones of Linux are 
there for you CLI enjoyment.  I'll dual boot my Chromebook one of these 
days when a I get a large SD card and a bit of spare time, or when I run 
into a brick wall, computing wise and find I can't do something with my 
CB as it is.



Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and 
a

couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.



Depends 

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Alan Pope]

On 14/02/13 15:06, j...@osml.eu wrote:

...and it's getting even easier, ne' the Chromebook.  (groan issues from
the collective group)  But it's true.  It Linux Jim, but not as we know
it.  A large percentage of the MS Windows using public have waken up to
the fact that they don't need a 8-core i7, with a 2-gig video card, and
SSD, and 16 gigs of RAM, and a big screened retina display to browse the
web and read their e-mail.  The tablet boom-bubble has showed many
another way.  Microsoft no longer owns the end-user experience: think
iPads, smartPhones, BYOD at work.



My wife teaches at a local school, and frequently gets homework sent to 
her via email. One of the students sent her an attachment incorrectly, 
somehow attaching something called a .gdoc file. I was enlisted to help 
her attach the document correctly and took a guess and typed up a tech 
reply to her asking if it was a chromebook, turned out it was. She 
described it as "a new laptop my parents bought where all the documents 
are stored somewhere else".


Interesting to see the youth of today using Linux, even if they don't 
know it :)


Cheers,
--
Alan Pope
Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-13 15:23, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:31:53 +
Ally Biggs  wrote:

Hello Ally,


The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan
and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added 
your

average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal
or spending hours finding the solution into a community.


The /real/ (at least, IMO) problem is that nobody needs any
qualifications to be able to buy and/or use a computer.  I can think 
of

few, if any, equally complex pieces of technology that do not require
some sort of required learning.  Most often with a test of competence
that needs to be passed before one is allowed to go solo.  Cars,
aeroplanes, you name it...


VCRs, now PVRs  Back in the bad old days of tape VCRs, a very large 
percentage of the VCR that display the time were set to 00:00  Most end 
users, needed a competency course to program their VCR.  I currently 
have a multi-function remote that will handle the TV, Cable, and DVD, 
but I can't program it to turn of the LCD screen.  YMMV




Microsoft and their ilk like to hide the nuts and bolts of their 
systems

because it means a whole industry is created, purely to rectify the
horrendous cock-ups many of the computer illiterate unwashed will
perpetrate.  Computers are difficult.  GUIs just make it *look* 
simple.
Frankly, the worst thing to happen to computers was the WIMP 
interface.

At that point, it became inevitable that there would be shedloads or
morons running computers, most of whom I wouldn't trust to run their 
own

baths.


And Smart Phones, Tablets, TVs, Chromebooks and if Apple gets their 
way, you wrist watch will 'hide' the bones of computing and just let you 
point and click.  ...and just get on with doing the task you wanted to 
do instead of trying to service the OS-Firewall-Version skew-Security 
Update-Major Upgrade  of you computing device.


Yes.  I'm becoming a heretic, but I'm not an apostate.


LUG (well, any computer group really) members are, of course, not in 
the
category I just outlined.  Group members are quite knowledgeable when 
it
comes to computers.  Some of them prodigiously so.  Many have 
particular

speciality skills too, which allows them to assist those that ask for
help when they become stuck.


And hopefully enjoying the process.

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-14 10:43, Alan Pope wrote:

On 14/02/13 15:06, j...@osml.eu wrote:
...and it's getting even easier, ne' the Chromebook.  (groan issues 
from
the collective group)  But it's true.  It Linux Jim, but not as we 
know
it.  A large percentage of the MS Windows using public have waken up 
to
the fact that they don't need a 8-core i7, with a 2-gig video card, 
and
SSD, and 16 gigs of RAM, and a big screened retina display to browse 
the

web and read their e-mail.  The tablet boom-bubble has showed many
another way.  Microsoft no longer owns the end-user experience: 
think

iPads, smartPhones, BYOD at work.



My wife teaches at a local school, and frequently gets homework sent
to her via email. One of the students sent her an attachment
incorrectly, somehow attaching something called a .gdoc file. I was
enlisted to help her attach the document correctly and took a guess
and typed up a tech reply to her asking if it was a chromebook, 
turned

out it was. She described it as "a new laptop my parents bought where
all the documents are stored somewhere else".

Interesting to see the youth of today using Linux, even if they don't 
know it :)


Great to hear that Chromebooks are starting to be used by the youth of 
today.  I know it's and old say, and not politically correct, but I 
pleased to see a small start in removing the Microsoft nose ring from a 
few of today's youth.  Long may this trend continue!


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[john lewis]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:33:58 -0500
j...@osml.eu wrote:

> I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many, 
> will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network 
> Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser
> tab for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a
> browser tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \

that sort of thing will never replace a desktop computer for me and I
don't need mobile computing. 

I don't really like the look of the future of computing if it means
more and more touch devices and apps/data stored 'in the cloud' or
whatever. 

Our current systems should last out our (my wife and I) lifetimes and
we'll not need istuff or googlestuff or chromestuff. 

I was in fact a bit horrified to read that my favourite browser is to
use chrome stuff in the near future, I quite like Opera the way it is
now. I can always put a hold on the current version though, at least I
have a choice ;-) 

Yup! I am a luddite but at my age I'm entitled to be one.

-- 
John Lewis
Debian & the GeneWeb genealogical data server

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-13 11:31, Ally Biggs wrote:

Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as
popular as Windows in the desktop market.


Yes, but you may not recognise it.


Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a
personal attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and
inspiration.


Watch the trend to BYOD (Bring Your Own Device) to work.  Smart Phones 
are the thin end of the wedge in this respect.  This might be more 
advanced in the USA than Europe, but it is trending up.




I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but
currently am having a tug of war with my thought patterns career 
wise.

The majority of my thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux
starting with Linux+ with the eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. 
The

other half is saying go down the Microsoft route taking a client exam
and going for the server 2012 admin certs.


I did a MS cert for NT4.0 and some mail-messaging-document editing 
Windows system a long time ago.  At that time, 96-97 I had more than 10 
years experience on Unix of various flavours.  I started on Unix before 
x-windows was released and suffered most of the MS-Dos versions from 3.x 
onward and Windows 2.0 onwards.  I judged the NT Admin course to be 
trivial compared to my experience on Unix.  All point and click with no 
understanding of what was going on behind the screen.  YMMV


It depends on you career intentions.  You need RHCSE if your are going 
to admin RedHat servers that require certificated administrators.  There 
is/was someone in the Hants LUG that has his RH cert.  You should talk 
to him regard this and the need.


I don't have any certs, but it hasn't stopped me from admin many 
different servers-desktops or doing development.


Has anyone been in a similar situation?
I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I
actually feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to
clicking my way through the GUI in Windows.


I had Windows on my desktop until XP.  Then Fedora->SuSE->Ubuntu->Mint. 
I once re-booted an old laptop back into XP to run U3-Uninistall, the 
only way to get U3 of a thumbdrive I had bought.  I've been back to 
Windows except for a short contract with NEC.  They required MS-Office 
Documents and timesheets on some naff IE only service.


Learn computing and you can change OS's without much grief.

Consider this.  The ***only*** thing I have ever learned that I've been 
able to use throughout my mis-spent career was touch typing.  Most, but 
not all of my CLI Unix experience still works and than covers V7-SysIII 
c. 1983 Unix.  Compare that with  Dos3.1.2.3->4.0-6.x + 
Win2.0->Win3.0->Win for Workgroups->95->98->2000->XP where I stopped but 
you could have been stuck with Vista->win7->win8  not mention all the 
server versions.  All that point and click doesn't work or carry across 
all the MS world, and the same is true for MS's programming 
environments.  Expect to retrain-upgrade every 2-3 years.  It's how MS 
makes money.




Making the transition from Windows to Linux was challenging initially
I probably will continue to learn Linux (Redhat, Debian) for server
related tasks and use Win 7 for client tasks.


Reasonable choice IMOSHO, but you MUST add Win8.  It's the latest 
greatest.  Oh yes, and Surface-RT.  Surface is different from the 
desktop and RT Office is not Desktop Office.


The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you
have the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being 
adopted

more for everyday use. Also why don't the developers standardise a
distribution for the home user i.e same package manager and packages.


Watch Chromebooks.  Acer-Samsung and now Lenovo and HP.  It a trending 
line.  Very early days.  Look at the S/w.  You can get 97% of the 
experience and 99% of the s/w as opensource via Chromium, but for 
ChromeOS you have to be an OEM and the firmware is tightly integrated 
into the Chromebook experience.  As an end-user you never see the 
package manager or the packages.  I'm waiting for a large, Fortune 500, 
to trial Chromebooks.  Chairs have been, and will continue to be thrown 
in Redmond.


Here is a wild, totally off the wall thought.  A real problem for 
Microsoft, is not that ChromeBooks will take over the desktop - but 
rather that the needs of the desktop will morph into something that is 
more suited to a ChromeBook (or something running Linux like a 
convertible tablet)




The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan
and something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added
your average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a
terminal or spending hours finding the solution into a community.


As pointed out elsewhere, this type of problem is particular to Linux.

Personal experience trying to 'fix' my GF's Win7.  Problems are more 
difficult to fix on MS platforms.  It's almost impossible to find the 
root of the problem.  'S

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-14 12:26, john lewis wrote:

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:33:58 -0500
j...@osml.eu wrote:


I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many,
will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network
Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser
tab for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a
browser tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \


that sort of thing will never replace a desktop computer for me and I
don't need mobile computing.


I most likely will not replace the desktop for me either, but it can, 
and I think will replace the desktop for many that just want to read 
their e-mail and browse the web and I think there are a lot of people 
that only want a computer for those two tasks.




I don't really like the look of the future of computing if it means
more and more touch devices and apps/data stored 'in the cloud' or
whatever.


I agree with touch devices.  The GF got an iPad mini for a Christmas 
present (not from me).  She hates all the smeary fingerprints on it.


Apps and into the cloud is currently 'just a trend', but I would add, a 
very strong trend.  Yes there are a lot of arguments against using a 
cloud to store you personal data, but there are a lot of good sound 
arguments for it  also.




Our current systems should last out our (my wife and I) lifetimes and
we'll not need istuff or googlestuff or chromestuff.


I'll need at least one h/w refresh. I don't like the iApple stuff.  I 
like my freedom.  There are alternatives to almost all Google services.  
Chromestuff can easily be avoided.




I was in fact a bit horrified to read that my favourite browser is to
use chrome stuff in the near future, I quite like Opera the way it is
now. I can always put a hold on the current version though, at least 
I

have a choice ;-)


Yes, I here that Opera is going to use V8 and WebKit.


Yup! I am a luddite but at my age I'm entitled to be one.

At a few months short of official OAP status, I'm a bit of a Luddite 
also but change keeps getting shoved into my face.  It's going to happen 
whether we like it or not.


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Ally Biggs]

I would defiantly be interested in getting further Linux experience whether it 
would be through work experience or volunteering. For me that would be a 
awesome position to be in. 

At my current role in the past I have been called a Open source evangelist, for 
setting up a Ubuntu server which was running samba and storing a archive of 
backups and windows drivers. 

I also was told that Linux was rubbish and nobody or none of the big companies 
run it. I obviously had to hold my tongue at the time. So I had to continue my 
adventures with Linux outside of work or secretly on the sly :). 

They run a SME server and the external support is handled by Linux IT but when 
the support side is taking a while to resolve I'm always approached and am 
expected to troubleshoot? I thought Linux was rubbish? 

Why do I enjoy Linux as opposed to Microsoft and what generated the passion? 
For me at the time it was the unknown. I was introduced to Debian by Nick Chalk 
at Jamie's computers watching him do his thing in the cli intrigued me and 
that's when I first knew about Linux. I started using it setting up minimal 
installs for firewalls for him. That gave me basic exposure to disk 
partitioning, Aptitude, And basic Bash commands. Obviously at first I had the 
Microsoft way of thinking :) and thought that Windows was the only way of 
getting things down. 

For me the appeal of Linux was the openness the ability to put older hardware 
to use and the power you get from using the cli. Also I get something I don't 
get when I use Windows and that is the feeling that I am learning something. 

Career wise I would love to either start my own company and specialise in 
getting Linux solutions into smaller business. Or to basic get my knowledge as 
far as I can so that I can deploy and maintain basic servers. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Feb 2013, at 17:47, j...@osml.eu wrote:

> On 2013-02-14 12:26, john lewis wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:33:58 -0500
>> j...@osml.eu wrote:
>> 
>>> I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many,
>>> will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network
>>> Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser
>>> tab for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a
>>> browser tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \
>> 
>> that sort of thing will never replace a desktop computer for me and I
>> don't need mobile computing.
> 
> I most likely will not replace the desktop for me either, but it can, and I 
> think will replace the desktop for many that just want to read their e-mail 
> and browse the web and I think there are a lot of people that only want a 
> computer for those two tasks.
> 
>> 
>> I don't really like the look of the future of computing if it means
>> more and more touch devices and apps/data stored 'in the cloud' or
>> whatever.
> 
> I agree with touch devices.  The GF got an iPad mini for a Christmas present 
> (not from me).  She hates all the smeary fingerprints on it.
> 
> Apps and into the cloud is currently 'just a trend', but I would add, a very 
> strong trend.  Yes there are a lot of arguments against using a cloud to 
> store you personal data, but there are a lot of good sound arguments for it  
> also.
> 
>> 
>> Our current systems should last out our (my wife and I) lifetimes and
>> we'll not need istuff or googlestuff or chromestuff.
> 
> I'll need at least one h/w refresh. I don't like the iApple stuff.  I like my 
> freedom.  There are alternatives to almost all Google services.  Chromestuff 
> can easily be avoided.
> 
>> 
>> I was in fact a bit horrified to read that my favourite browser is to
>> use chrome stuff in the near future, I quite like Opera the way it is
>> now. I can always put a hold on the current version though, at least I
>> have a choice ;-)
> 
> Yes, I here that Opera is going to use V8 and WebKit.
>> 
>> Yup! I am a luddite but at my age I'm entitled to be one.
>> 
> At a few months short of official OAP status, I'm a bit of a Luddite also but 
> change keeps getting shoved into my face.  It's going to happen whether we 
> like it or not.
> 
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Tim Brocklehurst]

One question... Do you work for Google?

On Thursday 14 Feb 2013 15:33:58 j...@osml.eu wrote:

> I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many,
> will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network
> Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser tab
> for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a browser
> tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \
> 
> Chromebooks can do a lot of things, but they can do many things that
> many end users want to do.

Good grief, how many times have I heard this? "The Cloud", "software as a 
service" etc. Yes, it suits a certain need, but it is not the all-encompassing 
solution that many people would have you believe.

In fact, for a lot of "computing" (CPU/Graphics intensive) tasks (as distinct 
from "communication" tasks i.e. e-mail etc.) it actually makes very little 
sense, and displays a complete lack of understanding of what a "desktop" PC 
can be (and in my case often is) used for.

However, there is good mileage in what we do at the moment, which is to use a 
COTS machine (laptop, desktop or whatever) and download the software we wish 
to use as a package, which you then install and run. This avoids the reliance 
on a potentially iffy internet connection for most of the time.

Cheers, guys,

Tim B.

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 07:54:17PM +, Tim Brocklehurst wrote:
> However, there is good mileage in what we do at the moment, which is to use a 
> COTS machine (laptop, desktop or whatever) and download the software we wish 
> to use as a package, which you then install and run. This avoids the reliance 
> on a potentially iffy internet connection for most of the time.

I agree with you that there is a trade-off, but I just wanted to
point out that compared to devices like a Chromebook, anything you
can build is neither "C" nor "OTS".

The shelves that devices like Chromebooks are off of are in
supermarkets. The shelves that you're talking about are specialist
suppliers like Ebuyer and Scan.

We as computing enthusiasts and professionals need to be careful
about falling into the trap of not considering the needs of normal
people. Normal people are extremely well-served by very cheap tablet
devices and cloud computing, and this is only going to become more
the case.

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-14 14:54, Tim Brocklehurst wrote:

One question... Do you work for Google?

On Thursday 14 Feb 2013 15:33:58 j...@osml.eu wrote:


I see a slightly different future for Linux.  The desktop, for many,
will disappear.  The Chromebook is a V2.0 successor to the Network
Computer.  It's a computing device.  Read you email:  Open a browser 
tab
for G-Mail.  Edit a document/spread sheet/presentation: Open a 
browser

tab for Google Docs/Sheets/Slides  \

Chromebooks can do a lot of things, but they can do many things that
many end users want to do.


Maybe not now, but I still content: "Watch this space".  Give the 
technology a chance to mature.  The ChromeOS is about the stage of Linux 
1.0. Say 2-3 years into development.  I agree, it's got a long ways to 
go.  I will never be right for everyone.  But it is just about usable 
for many users with limited needs, and even more limited technical 
resources and skills.  It a web browser appliance.  Turn it on a go.  
Not far, but enough for many users.


Good grief, how many times have I heard this? "The Cloud", "software 
as a
service" etc. Yes, it suits a certain need, but it is not the 
all-encompassing

solution that many people would have you believe.


But please look Chromebooks from the non-techie standpoint.  No 
security problems, no patches to apply.  No upgrades to struggle 
through.  No backup to worry about.  A lot of plus points for the casual 
Internet user.


In fact, for a lot of "computing" (CPU/Graphics intensive) tasks (as 
distinct
from "communication" tasks i.e. e-mail etc.) it actually makes very 
little
sense, and displays a complete lack of understanding of what a 
"desktop" PC

can be (and in my case often is) used for.


The big users of very very intensive graphics/cpu usage are considering 
'in the cloud'

http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2011/02/28/hollywoods-render-farms-move-to-the-cloud/



However, there is good mileage in what we do at the moment, which is 
to use a
COTS machine (laptop, desktop or whatever) and download the software 
we wish
to use as a package, which you then install and run. This avoids the 
reliance

on a potentially iffy internet connection for most of the time.



Yes, it a good solution for technically capable people.  I'm with you 
100% but most computer users are not technically capable.  They may be 
when our kids grow up.  Most will keyboard skills that will put many of 
us to shame. and they will have exposure to more a diverse computing 
environments than we had.


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[jlk]

On 2013-02-14 15:49, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 07:54:17PM +, Tim Brocklehurst wrote:
However, there is good mileage in what we do at the moment, which is 
to use a
COTS machine (laptop, desktop or whatever) and download the software 
we wish
to use as a package, which you then install and run. This avoids the 
reliance

on a potentially iffy internet connection for most of the time.


I agree with you that there is a trade-off, but I just wanted to
point out that compared to devices like a Chromebook, anything you
can build is neither "C" nor "OTS".

The shelves that devices like Chromebooks are off of are in
supermarkets. The shelves that you're talking about are specialist
suppliers like Ebuyer and Scan.

We as computing enthusiasts and professionals need to be careful
about falling into the trap of not considering the needs of normal
people. Normal people are extremely well-served by very cheap tablet
devices and cloud computing, and this is only going to become more
the case.



Well said.  thank you


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Tim Brocklehurst]

On Thursday 14 Feb 2013 20:49:04 Andy Smith wrote:
> I agree with you that there is a trade-off, but I just wanted to
> point out that compared to devices like a Chromebook, anything you
> can build is neither "C" nor "OTS".

By COTS I meant a machine which was not self-built.

> The shelves that devices like Chromebooks are off of are in
> supermarkets. The shelves that you're talking about are specialist
> suppliers like Ebuyer and Scan.

Or PC World, or any other retailer. I considered a few of the supermarket 
offerings when buying my laptop. The deciding factor in the end was that Ebuyer 
had an offer on, not that the Supermarkets were unable to supply something 
suitable.

> We as computing enthusiasts and professionals need to be careful
> about falling into the trap of not considering the needs of normal
> people. Normal people are extremely well-served by very cheap tablet
> devices and cloud computing, and this is only going to become more
> the case.

Indeed they are. However, it is only one use case. We must also avoid falling 
into the trap of thinking that anyone who doesn't work in IT only wants to use 
a limited set of features.

Cheers,

Tim B. 

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Alan Pope]

On 15/02/13 12:19, Peter Alefounder wrote:

Most people use their computers for games.


Back that up :)

I suspect the vast majority of Windows installs are not used for games, 
unless you count Oracle, Outlook, Word, Excel and Powerpoint to be 
intricate multi-player games :)


Cheers,
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Engineering Manager

Canonical - Product Strategy
+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
http://ubuntu.com/

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Samuel Penn]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:15:04 +, Alan Pope  
wrote:

On 15/02/13 12:19, Peter Alefounder wrote:

Most people use their computers for games.


Back that up :)

I suspect the vast majority of Windows installs are not used for
games, unless you count Oracle, Outlook, Word, Excel and Powerpoint 
to

be intricate multi-player games :)


Well, at least one version of Excel had a 3D flight simulator built 
into it... :-)



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Richard Bensley]

On 13 February 2013 16:31, Ally Biggs  wrote:
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as 
> Windows in the desktop market.

It's slowly happening. The US and Europe are not the only desktop
demographics. Asia and the third world are heavily embracing open
source. US/Europe has had the markets shaken up with tablets for
common computer tasks.

> I use both Windows and Linux have a strong interest in both but currently am 
> having a tug of war with my thought patterns career wise. The majority of my 
> thoughts are saying focus on learning Linux starting with Linux+ with the 
> eventual aim of going for the RHCSE. The other half is saying go down the 
> Microsoft route taking a client exam and going for the server 2012 admin 
> certs.

I personally don't hire on certs. I want aptitude and experience. I've
seen kids who design and operate LAMP stack solutions for their World
of Warcraft guild in their spare time, outperform their competition
with Windows/Red Hat certs cover some administrative tools and tasks,
and OK as introductions to their relative eco-systems, but it doesn't
make you battle-ready. But if you had to get a certification in our
day and age, I would go for something around Virtualisation platforms.
Hyper-V, Xen, KVM, and ESXi are the most accessible for business, AWS
and Eucalyptus for web companies.
Learning Puppet for Linux, and Powershell for Windows would be much
more useful skills in my opinion.


> I would say that I enjoy Linux more the whole Open source ethos, I actually 
> feel like I am learning when using the cli as opposed to clicking my way 
> through the GUI in Windows.

The best Windows admins are the ones who can use CMD and Powershell to
administrate system(s). Change Management is very hard to control, and
implementation steps are impossible to reproduce flawlessly with a
GUI. Computers are after all for carrying out repetitive tasks.


> The thing which bothers me though about Linux ok it's free and if you have 
> the skills you can do great things but why isn't it being adopted more for 
> everyday use.

Money. Dell is a great example. They sell a product, this product has
related training and support materials for customer support. If a
customer diversifies from the products original attributes you are now
unable to receive any kind of useful support. Share holders will put
pressure on a company to make sure their end to end sales and support
resources are the absolute minimum required to make a buck. Now Dell
are going private they hope to change that, one great way to kill
innovation is to go public with your business.

>Also why don't the developers standardise a distribution for the home user i.e 
>same package manager and packages.

That's what Ubuntu IS. And likewise CentOS/RHEL is pretty standard for
servers. But the point of open source code and permissive licensing is
that you don't have to follow anyone's standards and make your own. If
my only option to use Ubuntu was with Unity, I wouldn't be using
Ubuntu.


> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and 
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your average 
> user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or spending 
> hours finding the solution into a community.

Wow this strikes close to the heart. For this answer I am not going to
be polite...
Are you bloody joking? The worst thing about closed source systems
is when you are the edge case in a bug report, what the hell do you
do?
Directors don't like shrugs and "I dunno's" in emergency meetings.
This is what comes with using closed systems from ANYONE, Oracle, MS,
IBM, all you can do is open a support ticket and hope for the best.
Maybe that update will fix, maybe it will make it worst, it probably
wasn't a good idea in the first place but nothing was in place
(documentation, knowledge, consultancy) that said you
couldn't-and-you-did-and-it-broke.

Not even Platinum MS and Oracle support contracts are useful in those
nail biting situations. So your HP colour laserjet printer driver is
crashing an entire windows print server...now what? Your manager will
probably say "Well when I plug it into my laptop, my laptop doesn't
crash. Fix it.". And those blue screens, or multi-lingual grey screens
on OS X are soo useful.

On the flip side; with Linux/MySQL/Java stacks, I have the ability to
go so low level with my bug tickets and support cases I have actually
managed to have Oracle change documentation on several occasions.
These were generally caused by change I/my team was actually against,
but I couldn't prove otherwise without extensive testing, because no
formal explanation exists.
A week of stack traces, and tcpdumps, a couple of bug reports later ,
and documentation has been changed to reflect these crazy edge cases
to say "don't do this because X".

If I had a wheelchair to pry myself out of and a stick to wave I would!

> The other problem I fo

Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Vic]

> The documentation for various systems and services are generally
> fantastic, show me a bad example.

pygtk.

I have others...

> Often the documentation, testing and
> implementation efforts are the most deserving and go unnoticed. I
> don't use python much, but my goodness that's some great
> documentation.

Not entirely.

IME, the straightforward stuff is well documented. But they've omitted to
mention things like *which* exceptions are thrown, and under which
circumstances. Many a time and oft, I've had to go diving through source
code to try to find the (unhandled) exception that causes a particularly
esoteric error message at the bottom of my traceback...

Vic.


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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Michael Pavling]

On 15 February 2013 15:17, Richard Bensley  wrote:

> 


*applauds*

Post of the Year.
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Chris. Aubrey-Smith]

> Most people use their computers for games.

They do? News to me.

> So how did you guys learn Linux?

Just to complete the set:

I was a DOS user when I was assigned to look after PC/IX. I quickly decided
that UNIX was the only way to go and have never regretted the decision.
Then followed AIX, SCO UNIX and finally Linux following retirement

Chris.



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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Stuart Sears]

On 14/02/13 17:21, j...@osml.eu wrote:
> On 2013-02-13 11:31, Ally Biggs wrote:
>> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you
>> to be some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the
>> whole encyclopaedia of man pages. So when you ask for help or guidance
>> you often get a dismissive response.
> 
> I being an encyclopedia of commands bothers you, I would advise against
> RH exams.

I take issue with that statement (see below) :)

Assuming you have taken those exams, without breaking your NDA, would
you care to explain that particular statement and why you specifically
single out RH exams in that area? (I know the OP mentioned them, tbf)

[disclaimer: as you can probably tell from my sig, I *have* taken those
exams. In fact I was the senior trainer & examiner in the UK for Red Hat
for quite some time, so I'm not without bias here myself]

In any case, being an encyclopedia of commands doesn't in itself make
one an arse, that just seems to come more easily to some than others.**
In fact, that level of knowledge can be quite handy at times.
Thankfully it doesn't seem (to me) that arsiness and insult is as common
now as it once was in the IRC and web forum arenas.

Regards,

Stuart

** this is not directed at anyone in particular, just to be clear and
avoid misunderstandings :)
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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Dr A. J. Trickett]

On Wednesday 13 Feb 2013, Ally Biggs wrote:
> Do you guys ever think there will be a day that Linux will be as popular as
> Windows in the desktop market.

By which I assume you mean in the UK? Linux is very popular in some place 
already. If you include tablets, then Linux kernel powered devices are eating 
domestic PC sales alive...

> Personally I can't see this happening anytime soon. This isn't a personal
> attack on Linux just want to get some thoughts and inspiration.

You are probably correct that the UK PC market isn't going to see a big switch 
to Linux any time soon. However it is possible that the PC market may die a 
lot faster than people think in which case it will become a moot point.

> The problem with desktop Linux I think is when the shit hits the fan and
> something needs to be configured or a driver needs to be added your
> average user isn't going to want to sit typing commands in a terminal or
> spending hours finding the solution into a community.

I would say that the same is true of Windows. I know lots of people who get a 
new PC because the new printer won't work with the old PC (or vice-a-versa).

Most people have no idea about computers of any kind and are totally thrown 
when it doesn't work the way it did yesterday. In many respects Linux is no 
worse than Windows.
 
> The other problem I found is the community alot of people expect you to be
> some kind of command line genius who is capable of reciting the whole
> encyclopaedia of man pages.

Being able to use the command line is important if you are administering  
computers. You can do with a few keystrokes what it would take you forever 
with a point and click interface.

For a single computer you don't need to use the command line much if at all if 
you are just using it. I know plenty of computer illiterate pensioners who are 
happy to use Linux and have never typed a command in their life and I don't 
expect them ever to have to.

You can learn the CLI slowly and it will pay dividends, you'll be amazed how 
easy some things become when you know how to do it with a script...!

> So when you ask for help or guidance you often get a dismissive response.

While that can be common in some places, I sincerely hope that isn't the case 
here.

> Documentation is horrendous aswell especially if you are making the
> transition from Windows. Pick up a starting to learn Linux book and a
> couple of pages in you end up with the worlds worst headache.

I would ignore the transition from Windows aspect to start with. Most 
documentation for most things is terrible, doesn't matter what it is, Windows, 
Mac or Linux. There is good documentation and that's where you need to start. 
The second problem is that in my opinion Windows teaches you a lot of bad 
habits and concepts and unlearning them is painful.

> So how did you guys learn Linux?

Slowly and by asking a friend.

> Has anyone else made the transition from Windows?

Yes. Now I look at Windows 7 and cringe it's so crude and frustrating in so 
many ways.

> Or what are the key areas to focus on to develop a good foundation.
> Need some inspiration if I go down the Linux route would I be missing
> out on much? Please help me resolve the tug of war it is driving me mad :)

You need to decide what you actually want to do. Do you want to become a 
system administrator? Do you want to do servers or desktops? Do you want to do 
scripting? Do you want to concentrate on a sub system like databases or web 
servers?

-- 
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Overton, HANTS, UK

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Re: [Hampshire] The future of Linux / career advice

[Peter Alefounder]

 
Alan Pope  said:
> I suspect the vast majority of Windows installs are not used for games, 
> unless you count Oracle, Outlook, Word, Excel and Powerpoint to be 
> intricate multi-player games :)
 
Then I stand corrected, or possibly just updated! I don't pay much
attention to games, but suspect they have or at least had, a large
influence on the spread of computers to the home. 
 
As for the programs you mention, aren't there perfectly good Linux
equivalents? 
 
Peter Alefounder.

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