[Heb-NACO] Romanization question: לחשוב

[Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco]

All,

I have a book with the title:  לחשוב אסלאמית

OCLC (#1424768645) has the romanization as “La-ḥashov” which doesn’t seem to 
be correct.  The nikud is patah under the ל then sheva under the ח according to 
my edition of Even Shoshan and Rav Milim (לַחְשֹׁב).  LC’s catalog has an 
assortment of different romanizations for that word (La-ḥeshov, La-ḥashov, 
Laḥashov).  I’m thinking that La-ḥeshov would be the correct romanization.  
Please confirm.  This would be a good one to add to the wiki.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
Hebraica/Judaica Metadata Librarian
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230


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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Thank you for this suggestion, Bob. There is the example of metsayerim (at the 
top of p. 17), but adding another example can only help. --Jasmin

From: Robert M. TALBOTT 
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2023 10:33 AM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Cc: Galron, Joseph ; Miller, Caroline 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

It might be nice if this was added as an example to Hebraica Cataloging RDA 
pp.16-17 since it's a perennial question.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:01 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Correction: it is already in the wiki. I’ll add the wrong form haytah (which 
shows the yod as a consonant but is missing the sheva na‘). From: Heb-naco 
 On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
Sent: 
Correction: it is already in the wiki. I’ll add the wrong form haytah (which 
shows the yod as a consonant but is missing the sheva na‘).

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 10:09 PM
To: Galron, Joseph mailto:galro...@osu.edu>>; Hebrew Name 
Authority Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>; 
Miller, Caroline mailto:crmil...@library.ucla.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to the 
FAQ. From: Heb-naco  on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco  Sent: 
Wednesday,
Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to the 
FAQ.

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn@lists.osu.edu>>
 on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:14 PM
To: Miller, Caroline 
mailto:crmil...@library.ucla.edu>>; Hebrew Name 
Authority Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

I think it should be Hayetah


Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 5:30 PM
To: HEB-NACO List Posting 
(heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>) 
mailto:heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

All, How would you romanize היתה? I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” 
in LC’s catalog. I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed. 
Thanks. Caroline Caroline R. Miller Team Leader, Discovery Team UCLA Library 
Resource Acquisitions
All,

How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” in 
LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230



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--
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

130 Doe

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Robert M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco]

It might be nice if this was added as an example to Hebraica Cataloging RDA
pp.16-17 since it's a perennial question.

On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 9:01 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> Correction: it is already in the wiki. I’ll add the wrong form haytah
> (which shows the yod as a consonant but is missing the sheva na‘). From:
> Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Shinohara,
> Jasmin via Heb-naco Sent:
>
> Correction: it is already in the wiki. I’ll add the wrong form haytah
> (which shows the yod as a consonant but is missing the sheva na‘).
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
> Jasmin via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 26, 2023 10:09 PM
> *To:* Galron, Joseph ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>; Miller, Caroline 
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question
>
>
>
> Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to
> the FAQ. From: Heb-naco  lists. osu. edu> on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco  lists. osu. edu> Sent: Wednesday,
>
> Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it
> to the FAQ.
> --
>
> *From:* Heb-naco 
> on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:14 PM
> *To:* Miller, Caroline ; Hebrew Name Authority
> Funnel 
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question
>
>
>
> I think it should be Hayetah
>
>
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco *On Behalf Of *Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 26, 2023 5:30 PM
> *To:* HEB-NACO List Posting (heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu) <
> heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] Romanization question
>
>
>
> All, How would you romanize היתה? I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and
> “haitah” in LC’s catalog. I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t
> listed. Thanks. Caroline Caroline R. Miller Team Leader, Discovery Team
> UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions
>
> All,
>
>
>
> How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah”
> in LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Caroline
>
>
>
> *Caroline R. Miller*
>
> Team Leader, Discovery Team
>
> UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
>
> 2400 Life Sciences Building
>
> 621 Charles E Young Drive South
>
> Box 957230
>
> Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
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> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>


-- 
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

130 Doe

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Correction: it is already in the wiki. I’ll add the wrong form haytah (which 
shows the yod as a consonant but is missing the sheva na‘).

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin 
via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 10:09 PM
To: Galron, Joseph ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
; Miller, Caroline 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to the 
FAQ. From: Heb-naco  on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco  Sent: 
Wednesday,
Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to the 
FAQ.

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn@lists.osu.edu>>
 on behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:14 PM
To: Miller, Caroline 
mailto:crmil...@library.ucla.edu>>; Hebrew Name 
Authority Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

I think it should be Hayetah


Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 5:30 PM
To: HEB-NACO List Posting 
(heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>) 
mailto:heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

All, How would you romanize היתה? I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” 
in LC’s catalog. I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed. 
Thanks. Caroline Caroline R. Miller Team Leader, Discovery Team UCLA Library 
Resource Acquisitions
All,

How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” in 
LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230



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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Thanks for asking, Caroline! As Yossi wrote, it is hayetah. I'll add it to the 
FAQ.

From: Heb-naco  on 
behalf of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 8:14 PM
To: Miller, Caroline ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

I think it should be Hayetah


Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 5:30 PM
To: HEB-NACO List Posting (heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu) 

Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

All, How would you romanize היתה? I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” 
in LC’s catalog. I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed. 
Thanks. Caroline Caroline R. Miller Team Leader, Discovery Team UCLA Library 
Resource Acquisitions
All,

How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” in 
LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230



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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco]

I think it should be Hayetah


Yossi


From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2023 5:30 PM
To: HEB-NACO List Posting (heb-n...@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu) 

Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

All, How would you romanize היתה? I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” 
in LC’s catalog. I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed. 
Thanks. Caroline Caroline R. Miller Team Leader, Discovery Team UCLA Library 
Resource Acquisitions

All,

How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” in 
LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230



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[Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Miller, Caroline via Heb-naco]

All,

How would you romanize היתה?  I’m seeing it both as “haytah” and “haitah” in 
LC’s catalog.  I checked the AJL romanization wiki and it wasn’t listed.

Thanks.

Caroline

Caroline R. Miller
Team Leader, Discovery Team
UCLA Library Resource Acquisitions and Metadata Services
2400 Life Sciences Building
621 Charles E Young Drive South
Box 957230
Los Angeles, CA  90095-7230



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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

The word has been added to the romanization 
FAQ<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ*m__;JSM!!KGKeukY!zppVN1prRj9P9kcUa1hU2zYITTY1i0Bb-r-vT9_QSfLsvgKIwst1jGvJGUfc1Frmw3y-4tdtQgtBblKlbmfUuS2R1mE$
 >. Thanks, Rachel, for bringing it to our attention! I’ll report the needed 
BFM to LC.

Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco  On 
Behalf Of Joan Biella via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 3:47 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel ; Rachel Simon 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

Chiming in late, I agree that we should follow Even-Shoshan, but adding this to 
the Miss Romanization page is a good idea. —Joan On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 11:32 
AM Rachel Simon via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote: I asked mainly
Chiming in late, I agree that we should follow Even-Shoshan, but adding this to 
the Miss Romanization page is a good idea.  —Joan

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 11:32 AM Rachel Simon via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
I asked mainly because LC had both forms. So, maybe enter it the romanization 
wiki From: Heb-naco 
mailto:princeton@lists.osu.edu>>
 On Behalf Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco Sent: ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
I asked mainly because LC had both forms. So, maybe enter it the romanization 
wiki

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:princeton@lists.osu.edu>>
 On Behalf Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 1:58 PM
To: Galron, Joseph mailto:galro...@osu.edu>>; Hebrew Name 
Authority Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words 
(mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh), so that's neither here nor there. My old ES also has 
mitvah. As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew, 
but
Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words 
(mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh),
so that's neither here nor there.
My old ES also has mitvah.
As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew,  but we 
need to follow our designated authorities.
Barry

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 12:55 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
As Roger wrote, I also know about Mitveh, but it might be wrong, and should be 
Mitvah, the same has Mehvah מחווה

Milon Ariel ha-makif, has it as Mitvah

Yossi



From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Kohn, Roger via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:58 AM
To: 'Rachel Simon' mailto:rsi...@princeton.edu>>; 'Hebrew 
Name Authority Funnel' mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] To Rachel S. (PUL) re.: Romanization question (מתווה)

--- Hi Rachel, Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio 
is “mitveh” … All the best, .-r. From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
---

Hi Rachel,

Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio is “mitveh” …

All the best,

.-r.

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Rachel Simon via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:26 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

For מתווה : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both. 
Thanks, Rachel ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both.

Thanks,

Rachel
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

[Joan Biella via Heb-naco]

Chiming in late, I agree that we should follow Even-Shoshan, but adding
this to the Miss Romanization page is a good idea.  —Joan

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 11:32 AM Rachel Simon via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> I asked mainly because LC had both forms. So, maybe enter it the
> romanization wiki From: Heb-naco  princeton@lists.osu.edu> On Behalf Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco
> Sent: ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> I asked mainly because LC had both forms. So, maybe enter it the
> romanization wiki
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On
> Behalf Of *Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2022 1:58 PM
> *To:* Galron, Joseph ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)
>
>
>
> Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words
> (mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh), so that's neither here nor there. My old ES also
> has mitvah. As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken
> Hebrew, but
>
> Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words
> (mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh),
>
> so that's neither here nor there.
>
> My old ES also has mitvah.
>
> As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew,
> but we need to follow our designated authorities.
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 12:55 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco <
> heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> As Roger wrote, I also know about Mitveh, but it might be wrong, and
> should be Mitvah, the same has Mehvah מחווה
>
>
>
> Milon Ariel ha-makif, has it as Mitvah
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco *On Behalf Of *Kohn, Roger via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:58 AM
> *To:* 'Rachel Simon' ; 'Hebrew Name Authority
> Funnel' 
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] To Rachel S. (PUL) re.: Romanization question (מתווה
> )
>
>
>
> --- Hi Rachel, Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli
> radio is “mitveh” … All the best, .-r. From: Heb-naco <
> heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Hi Rachel,
>
>
>
> Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio is “mitveh”
> …
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> .-r.
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Rachel
> Simon via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:26 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] Romanization question
>
>
>
> For מתווה : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has
> both. Thanks, Rachel ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC
> has both.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rachel
>
> ___
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> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

[Rachel Simon via Heb-naco]

I asked mainly because LC had both forms. So, maybe enter it the romanization 
wiki

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf 
Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 1:58 PM
To: Galron, Joseph ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words 
(mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh), so that's neither here nor there. My old ES also has 
mitvah. As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew, 
but
Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words 
(mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh),
so that's neither here nor there.
My old ES also has mitvah.
As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew,  but we 
need to follow our designated authorities.
Barry

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 12:55 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
As Roger wrote, I also know about Mitveh, but it might be wrong, and should be 
Mitvah, the same has Mehvah מחווה

Milon Ariel ha-makif, has it as Mitvah

Yossi



From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Kohn, Roger via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:58 AM
To: 'Rachel Simon' mailto:rsi...@princeton.edu>>; 'Hebrew 
Name Authority Funnel' mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] To Rachel S. (PUL) re.: Romanization question (מתווה)

--- Hi Rachel, Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio 
is “mitveh” … All the best, .-r. From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
---

Hi Rachel,

Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio is “mitveh” …

All the best,

.-r.

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Rachel Simon via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:26 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

For מתווה : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both. 
Thanks, Rachel ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both.

Thanks,

Rachel
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

[Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco]

Rav-milim (and Morfix) have mitveh. There are other examples of -eh words
(mikreh, mikveh, mikhreh),
so that's neither here nor there.
My old ES also has mitvah.
As already mentioned, mitveh seems to be more common in spoken Hebrew,  but
we need to follow our designated authorities.
Barry

On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 12:55 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> As Roger wrote, I also know about Mitveh, but it might be wrong, and
> should be Mitvah, the same has Mehvah מחווה
>
>
>
> Milon Ariel ha-makif, has it as Mitvah
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco *On Behalf Of *Kohn, Roger via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:58 AM
> *To:* 'Rachel Simon' ; 'Hebrew Name Authority
> Funnel' 
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] To Rachel S. (PUL) re.: Romanization question (מתווה
> )
>
>
>
> --- Hi Rachel, Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli
> radio is “mitveh” … All the best, .-r. From: Heb-naco <
> heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Hi Rachel,
>
>
>
> Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio is “mitveh”
> …
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> .-r.
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Rachel
> Simon via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:26 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] Romanization question
>
>
>
> For מתווה : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has
> both. Thanks, Rachel ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
>
> For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC
> has both.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rachel
> ___
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[Heb-NACO] Romanization question (מתווה)

[Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco]

As Roger wrote, I also know about Mitveh, but it might be wrong, and should be 
Mitvah, the same has Mehvah מחווה

Milon Ariel ha-makif, has it as Mitvah

Yossi



From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Kohn, Roger via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 11:58 AM
To: 'Rachel Simon' ; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel' 

Subject: [Heb-NACO] To Rachel S. (PUL) re.: Romanization question (מתווה)

--- Hi Rachel, Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio 
is “mitveh” … All the best, .-r. From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍

---

Hi Rachel,

Yes, ES2000 has “mitvah”, but all what I hear on Israeli radio is “mitveh” …

All the best,

.-r.

From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Rachel Simon via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2022 9:26 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization question

For מתווה : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both. 
Thanks, Rachel ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ 
‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍ ‍
For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both.

Thanks,

Rachel
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[Heb-NACO] Romanization question

[Rachel Simon via Heb-naco]

For  מתווה  : is it “mitvah” or “mitveh” ?? My ES has “mitvah”, but LC has both.

Thanks,

Rachel
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Jacqueline Benefraim via Heb-naco]

December 21 could be a Roman[izarion] Holiday, minus Audrey Hepburn, who I do 
not believe was a cataloger

Jackie Ben-Efraim
Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 5, 2022, at 10:49 PM, Joan Biella via Heb-naco 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> My birthday is December 21st.  That gives us some time to plan International 
> Romanization Day.
> 
> Joan, still suffering from broken wrist and, probably, impaired judgment from 
> medications.
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 4:44 PM Shinohara, Jasmin  
>> wrote:
>> I second the motion! 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Joan Biella via 
>> Heb-naco
>> Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:04 PM
>> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel ; Nancy 
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Maybe we should declare a holiday to celebrate romanization!
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Joan 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 12:45 PM Nancy via Heb-naco  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi, Rachel!
>> Are you still romanizing? How are you?
>> 
>> 
>> Nancy
>> 
>> On 2/3/2022 5:33 AM, Rachel Simon via Heb-naco wrote:
>> 
>> How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Rachel
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Joan Biella via Heb-naco]

My birthday is December 21st.  That gives us some time to plan
International Romanization Day.

Joan, still suffering from broken wrist and, probably, impaired judgment
from medications.


On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 4:44 PM Shinohara, Jasmin 
wrote:

> I second the motion! 
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Joan
> Biella via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:04 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel ; Nancy <
> s...@hawaii.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question
>
>
>
> Maybe we should declare a holiday to celebrate romanization!
>
>
>
> Joan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 12:45 PM Nancy via Heb-naco 
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Rachel!
> Are you still romanizing? How are you?
>
>
> Nancy
>
> On 2/3/2022 5:33 AM, Rachel Simon via Heb-naco wrote:
>
> How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rachel
>
>
>
> ___
>
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>
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>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

I second the motion! 

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Joan Biella via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:04 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel ; Nancy 

Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

Maybe we should declare a holiday to celebrate romanization!

Joan



On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 12:45 PM Nancy via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Hi, Rachel!
Are you still romanizing? How are you?

Nancy
On 2/3/2022 5:33 AM, Rachel Simon via Heb-naco wrote:
How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.

Thanks,

Rachel


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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Robert M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco]

HI Rachel:

That's a sticky one. I suggest ke-ilu. Why?  Because the first entry in the
ES definitiion is a "roe" to ilu.  Also somewhere in the HCM we're advised
to use the hyphenate when encountering cases that are hybrid or confusing.
In any event once a decision is made it would be nice to have this added to
the Romanization FAQs.

My two cents

Bob

On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 11:58 AM Rachel Simon via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rachel
> ___
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-- 
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Joan Biella via Heb-naco]

Maybe we should declare a holiday to celebrate romanization!

Joan



On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 12:45 PM Nancy via Heb-naco 
wrote:

> Hi, Rachel!
> Are you still romanizing? How are you?
>
> Nancy
>
> On 2/3/2022 5:33 AM, Rachel Simon via Heb-naco wrote:
>
> How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

Hi, Rachel, I’m sure you’ve seen all sorts of ways...

The correct romanization is ke-ilu. אילו appears in the dictionary as an entry 
unto itself, making it the “more analytical” option referred to in HCM-RDA on 
p. 19 at the bottom, section “Little words,”

“In the few cases where Even-Shoshan may show the same word under more than one 
entry element, the more ‘analytical’ option is chosen. For example, the Hebrew 
form of “In the beginning” or “Genesis” is entered in his lexicon under both 
bet and resh. Choosing the analytical option results in hyphenation: Be-reshit 
[not: Bereshit]”

Since the alef is at the beginning of the word אילו, there is no diacritic 
added before the i. => ke-ilu.

I will add this word to our FAQ. Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco  On 
Behalf Of Rachel Simon via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:33 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.

Thanks,

Rachel
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Nancy via Heb-naco]

Hi, Rachel!
Are you still romanizing? How are you?
Nancy

On 2/3/2022 5:33 AM, Rachel Simon via Heb-naco wrote:


How is כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.

Thanks,

Rachel


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[Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Rachel Simon via Heb-naco]

How is  כאילו   romanized? I saw several ways.

Thanks,

Rachel
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco]

Hi Heidi,

You are correct with the Romanization. I believe that the sheva under the gimel 
would be ignored in this case per the HCM.

Haim

From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:59 PM
To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
Subject: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

Hi all,

The verb "מתאגדים"

I believe that it would be romanized as:

"mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica

The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring 
between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni 
(participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms 
of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas 
following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ
Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated




I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.



Thanks, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco]

My pleasure, any time ☺

From: Heidi G Lerner 
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 4:12 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: Re: romanization question

Thank you


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>


From: Shinohara, Jasmin mailto:jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 1:05 PM
To: Heidi G Lerner mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>>; Hebrew 
Name Authority Funnel mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: RE: romanization question


Yes, with the addition of the alif diacritic, mit’agdim. The sheva under the 
gimel would be naʻ because it has a dagesh, but per HCM-RDA, it’s ignored in 
ALA-LC romanizaztion.



Kol tuv, Jasmin



From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:59 PM
To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] romanization question



Hi all,



The verb "מתאגדים"



I believe that it would be romanized as:



"mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica



The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring 
between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni 
(participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms 
of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas 
following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ

Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated





I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.



Thanks, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco]

thanks!!

Good we are all on the same page!


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Neil Manel Frau-Cortes 
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:02 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Cc: Heidi G Lerner 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

I agree with Jasmin.


Neil

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:08 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>> wrote:

Yes, with the addition of the alif diacritic, mit’agdim. The sheva under the 
gimel would be naʻ because it has a dagesh, but per HCM-RDA, it’s ignored in 
ALA-LC romanizaztion.



Kol tuv, Jasmin



From: Heb-naco 
mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> On 
Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:59 PM
To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] romanization question



Hi all,



The verb "מתאגדים"



I believe that it would be romanized as:



"mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica



The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring 
between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni 
(participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms 
of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas 
following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ

Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated





I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.



Thanks, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>

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--

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. (he, him, his)

Senior Catalog Librarian

Supervisor for Non-Roman and Special Collections Cataloging


University of Maryland

2200 McKeldin Library

College Park, MD 20742

Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu<http://nf...@umd.edu>

ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/-0002-1881-1405

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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco]

Thank you


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Shinohara, Jasmin 
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 1:05 PM
To: Heidi G Lerner ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 

Subject: RE: romanization question


Yes, with the addition of the alif diacritic, mit’agdim. The sheva under the 
gimel would be naʻ because it has a dagesh, but per HCM-RDA, it’s ignored in 
ALA-LC romanizaztion.



Kol tuv, Jasmin



From: Heb-naco  On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner via 
Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:59 PM
To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
Subject: [Heb-NACO] romanization question



Hi all,



The verb "מתאגדים"



I believe that it would be romanized as:



"mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica



The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring 
between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni 
(participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms 
of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas 
following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ

Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated





I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.



Thanks, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Neil Manel Frau-Cortes via Heb-naco]

I agree with Jasmin.


Neil

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:08 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <
heb-naco@lists.osu.edu> wrote:

> Yes, with the addition of the alif diacritic, mit’agdim. The sheva under
> the gimel would be naʻ because it has a dagesh, but per HCM-RDA, it’s
> ignored in ALA-LC romanizaztion.
>
>
>
> Kol tuv, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco  *On Behalf Of *Heidi G
> Lerner via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 6, 2020 2:59 PM
> *To:* heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] romanization question
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> The verb "מתאגדים"
>
>
>
> I believe that it would be romanized as:
>
>
>
> "mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica
>
>
>
> *The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa
> occurring between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of
> benoni (participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other
> verb forms of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems),
> including all sheṿas following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ*
>
> *Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated*
>
>
>
>
>
> I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Heidi
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>


-- 

*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. *(he, him, his)

*Senior Catalog Librarian*

*Supervisor for Non-Roman and Special Collections Cataloging*


University of Maryland

2200 McKeldin Library

College Park, MD 20742

Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu

ORCID ID: https://orcid.org/-0002-1881-1405
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[Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Heidi G Lerner via Heb-naco]

Hi all,

The verb "מתאגדים"

I believe that it would be romanized as:

"mitagdim"  as per RDA Hebraica

The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring 
between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni 
(participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms 
of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas 
following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ
Any agreement or disagreement would be greatly appreciated



I look forward to hearing from those  who agree and those who don't.


Thanks, Heidi


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Yossi Galron]

Colleagues,
We need to be careful in deciding to change our practice.

One argument that was raised (and I agree with it) is the fact that no
native speaker says: Deramah or Pesikhologyah, etc.
But also no native speaker of Hebrew would say Tsefat for צפת or Teveryah
for טבריה.
But we romanize the name טברסקי as Tverski  (Twersky) and not as Teverski.
Yossi
On Nov 11, 2015 11:18 AM, "Yossi Galron" <jgal...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Semadar  (or do you prefer Smadar :-)
> The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using
> and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need
> to reconsider the matter.
> Kol tuv
> Yossi [also not according to the rules]
> On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over
>> ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit,
>> psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit
>> without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is
>> pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
>> Smadar
>>
>> On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
>>
>> Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
>> authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
>> So right now we have:
>> kriminologyah
>> statistiskah
>> but deramah.
>>
>> psikhologyah
>> psikhi, etc.
>> but pesefas.
>>
>> Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva
>> under the first letter.
>>
>> The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan
>> words and not put in the sheva na.
>>
>> Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would
>> a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
>>
>> I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
>> pesefas.
>>
>> I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system
>> we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
>> Judaica Specialist
>> University of Toronto Libraries
>> Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
>> Canada
>> --
>> *From:* Heb-naco [
>> heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on behalf of
>> Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went
>> to a valid reference work.
>>
>>
>> Bes, Heidi
>>
>>
>> Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite
>> clear:
>>
>>
>> *The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
>> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is
>> necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis.
>> These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa
>> of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.*
>> *ALA-LC Romanization:*
>> *Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.*
>> *ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.*
>> *Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.*
>> *אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה*
>> *but:*
>> *deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]*
>> *A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules
>> governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when
>> preceded by an open syllable.*
>> *be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)*
>>
>>
>> Heidi G. Lerner
>>
>> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>>
>> Metadata Dept.
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>>
>> ph: 650-725-9953
>>
>> fax: 650-725-1120
>>
>> e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>
>> <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner
>> <jarov...@jtsa.edu> <jarov...@jtsa.edu>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>>
>> I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only
>> Alcalay, from which I conclude that we ar

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[sshtuhl]

Yossi,
I took the examples from Alcalay to demonstrate the inconsistencies it 
presents and the confusion that goes with them. And - my name should 
indeed be Romainzed Semadar but I write Smadar since no one pronounces 
it with a sheva na.

Smadar

On 11/11/2015 11:18 AM, Yossi Galron wrote:


Semadar  (or do you prefer Smadar :-)
The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were 
using and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion 
and we need to reconsider the matter.

Kol tuv
Yossi [also not according to the rules]

On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu 
<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:


I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have
over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah
genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also
pesikhologyah shimushit without any visible reason for the
difference. Likewise, there is pesikhopati but ishiyut
psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
Smadar

On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:

Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.

psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.

Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a
sheva under the first letter.

The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words
as loan words and not put in the sheva na.

Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage?
How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?

I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
pesefas.

I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the
system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada

*From:* Heb-naco
[heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu
<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu>] on
behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and
he went to a valid reference work.


Bes, Heidi


Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging
are quite clear:


/The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial
consonantal cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For
correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and
Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain
the effect of vowel "heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
/ALA-LC Romanization:/
/Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
/?.  ??? ??./
/Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
/?? ?? .  ?/
/but:/
/deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
/A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the
rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and
p/f when preceded by an open syllable./
/be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953 

fax: 650-725-1120 

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>




*From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner
<jarov...@jtsa.edu> <mailto:jarov...@jtsa.edu>
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have
only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here
Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew
word. My Alcalay edition treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew
vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a /sheva,
/which it does not do for /psikholog/. This is not a question of
etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce
the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only because that helps them accent
the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other
mobile shevas, one

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Barry Walfish]

I agree, it’s a can of worms. But maybe we can at least eliminate a few 
inconsistencies.

Barry

Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
Judaica and Theology Specialist
Collection Development Department and
Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
University of Toronto Library
130 St. George St.
Toronto, ON
Canada M5S 1A5

Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
e-mail: barry.walf...@utoronto.ca

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2015 11:50 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


Colleagues,
We need to be careful in deciding to change our practice.

One argument that was raised (and I agree with it) is the fact that no native 
speaker says: Deramah or Pesikhologyah, etc.
But also no native speaker of Hebrew would say Tsefat for צפת or Teveryah for 
טבריה.
But we romanize the name טברסקי as Tverski  (Twersky) and not as Teverski.
Yossi
On Nov 11, 2015 11:18 AM, "Yossi Galron" 
<jgal...@gmail.com<mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Semadar  (or do you prefer Smadar :-)
The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using and 
are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need to 
reconsider the matter.
Kol tuv
Yossi [also not according to the rules]
On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" 
<ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:
I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over ten 
sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit, psikhologyah 
hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit without any visible 
reason for the difference. Likewise, there is pesikhopati but ishiyut 
psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
Smadar
On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. 
Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.

psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.

Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the 
first letter.

The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words 
and not put in the sheva na.

Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a 
reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?

I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas.

I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're 
using is. Hurray for the vernacular.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada

From: Heb-naco 
[heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu>]
 on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a 
valid reference work.



Bes, Heidi



Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:


The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]
A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the 
aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open 
syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)




Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>


From: Heb-naco 
<heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu><mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on 
behalf of Jay Rovner <jarov...@jtsa.edu><mailto:jarov...@jtsa.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only Alcalay, 
from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, 
rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats pesefas and deram

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Heidi G Lerner]

This is an issue that needs to discussed by the members of the AJL RAS 
Cataloging Committee. I will write up a draft or proposals on this issue and 
submit it to the Committee.


Best, Heidi (Chair, RAS Cataloging Committee, AJL)


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu



From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Barry Walfish 
<barry.walf...@utoronto.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:39 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. 
Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.

psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.

Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the 
first letter.

The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words 
and not put in the sheva na.

Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a 
reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?

I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas.

I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're 
using is. Hurray for the vernacular.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada

From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on 
behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a 
valid reference work.


Bes, Heidi


Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:


The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]
A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the 
aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open 
syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu



From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner 
<jarov...@jtsa.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only Alcalay, 
from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, 
rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats pesefas and deramah 
as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a sheva, which 
it does not do for psikholog.  This is not a question of etymology, but of 
usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the sheva of pesafas if only 
because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a 
lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe  do -- and do not -- regard in our 
Romanizing).



   JR



Jay Rovner, PhD

Manuscript Bibliographer

The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary

5501 Library

3080 Broadway

New York City, New York  10027

(212) 678-8045



Please note:  The JTS Library’s archives are temporarily to accommodate packing 
of our Special Collections in advance of our rebuilding project. The archives 
will reopen on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library located on the 7th 
floor of JTS’s Kripke and Schiff buildings.



The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years. Reference 
services for the Special Collections will continue throughout this period. 
Please be sure to check for digital copies of manuscripts and rare books.



For help in finding what you might need, please email 
sadiam...@jtsa.edu<mailto:sadiam...@jtsa.edu> or 
s...@jtsa.edu<mailto:s...@jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our 
reference librarians<mailto:libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the Library’s 
website<http://www.jtsa.edu/Th

Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Heidi G Lerner]

I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a 
valid reference work.


Bes, Heidi


Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:


The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]
A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the 
aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open 
syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu



From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner 
<jarov...@jtsa.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only Alcalay, 
from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, 
rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats pesefas and deramah 
as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a sheva, which 
it does not do for psikholog.  This is not a question of etymology, but of 
usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the sheva of pesafas if only 
because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a 
lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe  do -- and do not -- regard in our 
Romanizing).



   JR



Jay Rovner, PhD

Manuscript Bibliographer

The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary

5501 Library

3080 Broadway

New York City, New York  10027

(212) 678-8045



Please note:  The JTS Library’s archives are temporarily to accommodate packing 
of our Special Collections in advance of our rebuilding project. The archives 
will reopen on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library located on the 7th 
floor of JTS’s Kripke and Schiff buildings.



The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years. Reference 
services for the Special Collections will continue throughout this period. 
Please be sure to check for digital copies of manuscripts and rare books.



For help in finding what you might need, please email 
sadiam...@jtsa.edu<mailto:sadiam...@jtsa.edu> or 
s...@jtsa.edu<mailto:s...@jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our 
reference librarians<mailto:libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the Library’s 
website<http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>.



From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Jasmin 
Shinohara
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
To: heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question



Agreed, Neil.  Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a psi.  
Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?

On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:

… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.





Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu<mailto:nf...@umd.edu>



From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question



Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" 
<ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:

Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.



Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

פסיפס

as "psefas"



Best, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>





From: Heb-naco 
<heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on 
behalf of Yossi Galron <jgal...@gmail.com<mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question



I wouldn't change our practice.
Just la

[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[sshtuhl]

Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan 
words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס?

Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Yossi Galron]

I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl"  wrote:

> Hi all,
> We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan
> words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> ssht...@upenn.edu
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Jasmin Shinohara]

So psefas it is.  Sorry Yossi... :-)

Thanks, Jasmin

On 11/9/2015 3:53 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
I thought we agreed that since the ps represents one letter in Greek 
(psi), pesefas makes no sense, and it should be treated like psikhologyah.


Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada

*From:* Heb-naco 
[heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on behalf 
of Neil Manel Frau-Cortes [nf...@umd.edu]

*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:31 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.

**

*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu 

*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of 
*Yossi Galron

*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu 
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:


Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.

Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

פסיפס

as "psefas"

Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953 

fax: 650-725-1120 

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>



*From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu 
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron 
<jgal...@gmail.com <mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>

*Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu 
<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:


Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of 
foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize 
the word פסיפס?

Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610 
ssht...@upenn.edu <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Neil Manel Frau-Cortes]

I agree with Barry and Jasmin. Transcribing an initial psi as “pes-“ doesn’t 
make any philological sense, and it is not serving the users. I think the same 
applies to “dramah” = δράμα


Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nf...@umd.edu

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+nfrau=umd@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf 
Of Barry Walfish
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:54 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I thought we agreed that since the ps represents one letter in Greek (psi), 
pesefas makes no sense, and it should be treated like psikhologyah.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada

From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on 
behalf of Neil Manel Frau-Cortes [nf...@umd.edu]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:31 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.


Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nf...@umd.edu

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" 
<ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:

Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.



Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

פסיפס

as "psefas"



Best, Heidi



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>


From: Heb-naco 
<heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on 
behalf of Yossi Galron <jgal...@gmail.com<mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question


I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> 
wrote:
Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan words. 
Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס?
Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Jasmin Shinohara]

Agreed, Neil.  Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a 
psi.  Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?


On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:


… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.

**

*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu

*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of 
*Yossi Galron

*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu 
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:


Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.

Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

פסיפס

as "psefas"

Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953 

fax: 650-725-1120 

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>



*From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu 
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron 
<jgal...@gmail.com <mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>

*Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu 
<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:


Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of 
foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize 
the word פסיפס?

Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610 
ssht...@upenn.edu <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question: another word

[Rachel Simon]

How aboutבלגן  ? the title is:  נוער בבלגן
So, is this considered a Hebrew word, to be Romanized as: "No'ar be-valagan"? 
Or "No'ar be-balagan"? Or simply: "No'ar ba-balagan"?

Rachel

-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. 
TALBOTT
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:58 AM
To: Barry Walfish; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Yes, upon closer inspection with my glasses "pesefas."



On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Barry Walfish <barry.walf...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Actually, in my ES it's pesefas. But I think itshould be treated like 
> psikhologyah or psikhiatriyah, i.e., psefas.
> My two cents.
>
> Barry
>
> Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
> Judaica and Theology Specialist
> Collection Development Department and
> Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
> University of Toronto Library
> 130 St. George St.
> Toronto, ON
> Canada M5S 1A5
>
> Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
> Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
> e-mail: barry.walf...@utoronto.ca
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Heb-naco 
> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] On 
> Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:47 AM
> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> Hi Smadar
>
> Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation from 
> Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan word, it's 
> been in the language long enough to be naturalized.
>
> When in doubt, check the HCM:
> http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and Yiddish 
> romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are apparently no 
> longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of use.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from 
>> Greek. As a foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but 
>> in entries it appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this 
>> discrepancy?
>> Thanks,
>> Smadar
>>
>> --
>> Smadar Shtuhl
>> Hebraica Library Specialist
>> University of Pennsylvania
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>> F. 215-573-9610
>> ssht...@upenn.edu
>>
>> ___
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
> --
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
> ___
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> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Neil Manel Frau-Cortes]

I think there is very little to say from a Hebrew grammar point of view as loan 
words hardly follow regular vocalization rules. As you know, I never liked 
solutions like "deramah." No matter how faithful to the rules and authorized 
sources, I don't know a single user that would type that in order to find דרמה

Therefore I would advocate for certain leniency or common sense. I think it's 
safe to assume we should transliterate the word as pesefas, but it wouldn't be 
a bad idea to add a 246.3 for psefas, and I think we should do the same for 
confusing cases such as deramah.



Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nf...@umd.edu

-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G 
Lerner
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel; rtalb...@library.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

What I have found is interesting: 

My Even-Shoshan edition ( copyright 2003, 2006 printing)

has: Pesefas (from Greek: pesefos); Alkalay has "Pesefas".

Here is the text from our manual:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama] A few loan words are also treated as 
though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, 
k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



I also checked Jastrow and it has have (citing Misnhah Avot: Schecter edition)

Pesipas (from the Hebrew: פס; פסיסה)

All you Hebrew grammarians out there, can you step in?

If we cannot come to a consensus I would suggest that we go with "pesefas" 
since that is the vocalization that is provided in both ES and Alkalay


Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford@lists.osu.edu> on behalf 
of Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalb...@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation
from Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan
word, it's been in the language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and
Yiddish romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are
apparently no longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of
use.

Bob





On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from Greek. As a
> foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but in entries it
> appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this discrepancy?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> ssht...@upenn.edu
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco



--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Heidi G Lerner]

What I have found is interesting: 

My Even-Shoshan edition ( copyright 2003, 2006 printing)

has: Pesefas (from Greek: pesefos); Alkalay has "Pesefas".

Here is the text from our manual:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]
A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the 
aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open 
syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



I also checked Jastrow and it has have (citing Misnhah Avot: Schecter edition)

Pesipas (from the Hebrew: פס; פסיסה)

All you Hebrew grammarians out there, can you step in?

If we cannot come to a consensus I would suggest that we go with "pesefas" 
since 
that is the vocalization that is provided in both ES and Alkalay


Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford@lists.osu.edu> on behalf 
of Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalb...@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation
from Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan
word, it's been in the language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and
Yiddish romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are
apparently no longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of
use.

Bob





On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from Greek. As a
> foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but in entries it
> appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this discrepancy?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> ssht...@upenn.edu
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco



--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Barry Walfish]

Yes, with a  psi. psephos, a small pebble.

Barry

Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
Judaica and Theology Specialist
Collection Development Department and
Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
University of Toronto Library
130 St. George St.
Toronto, ON
Canada M5S 1A5

Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
e-mail: barry.walf...@utoronto.ca


-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco 
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of 
Neil Manel Frau-Cortes
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:49 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Good question. I think with psi. At least the word ψήφος exists in modern 
Greek...




Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger McKeldin Library University of 
Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Phone (301) 405-9337 nf...@umd.edu


-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+nfrau=umd@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf 
Of Joan Biella
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:17 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Is the Greek word spelled with the letter psi, or with pi and sigma?

On November 5, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Heidi G Lerner <ler...@stanford.edu> wrote:

What I have found is interesting: 

My Even-Shoshan edition ( copyright 2003, 2006 printing)

has: Pesefas (from Greek: pesefos); Alkalay has "Pesefas".

Here is the text from our manual:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama] A few loan words are also treated as 
though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, 
k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



I also checked Jastrow and it has have (citing Misnhah Avot: Schecter edition)

Pesipas (from the Hebrew: פס; פסיסה)

All you Hebrew grammarians out there, can you step in?

If we cannot come to a consensus I would suggest that we go with "pesefas" 
since that is the vocalization that is provided in both ES and Alkalay


Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford@lists.osu.edu> on behalf 
of Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalb...@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation from 
Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan word, it's been 
in the language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and Yiddish 
romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are apparently no 
longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of use.

Bob





On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from 
> Greek. As a foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but 
> in entries it appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this 
> discrepancy?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> ssht...@upenn.edu
>
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco



--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[Neil Manel Frau-Cortes]

Good question. I think with psi. At least the word ψήφος exists in modern 
Greek...




Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nf...@umd.edu


-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+nfrau=umd@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf 
Of Joan Biella
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:17 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Is the Greek word spelled with the letter psi, or with pi and sigma?

On November 5, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Heidi G Lerner <ler...@stanford.edu> wrote:

What I have found is interesting: 

My Even-Shoshan edition ( copyright 2003, 2006 printing)

has: Pesefas (from Greek: pesefos); Alkalay has "Pesefas".

Here is the text from our manual:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is 
generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to 
consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial 
clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes 
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama] A few loan words are also treated as 
though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, 
k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)



I also checked Jastrow and it has have (citing Misnhah Avot: Schecter edition)

Pesipas (from the Hebrew: פס; פסיסה)

All you Hebrew grammarians out there, can you step in?

If we cannot come to a consensus I would suggest that we go with "pesefas" 
since that is the vocalization that is provided in both ES and Alkalay


Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu


From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford@lists.osu.edu> on behalf 
of Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalb...@library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation
from Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan
word, it's been in the language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and
Yiddish romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are
apparently no longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of
use.

Bob





On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from Greek. As a
> foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but in entries it
> appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this discrepancy?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> ssht...@upenn.edu
>
> ___
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> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question: another word

[Joan Biella]

Replying to Barry's comment--is this a case where we should consult Alcalay 
about the quality of the Sheba in the first syllable of p(e)sifas, per HCM?


On November 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Rachel Simon <rsi...@princeton.edu> wrote:

How aboutבלגן  ? the title is:  נוער בבלגן
So, is this considered a Hebrew word, to be Romanized as: "No'ar be-valagan"? 
Or "No'ar be-balagan"? Or simply: "No'ar ba-balagan"?

Rachel

-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. 
TALBOTT
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:58 AM
To: Barry Walfish; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Yes, upon closer inspection with my glasses "pesefas."



On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Barry Walfish <barry.walf...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
> Actually, in my ES it's pesefas. But I think itshould be treated like 
> psikhologyah or psikhiatriyah, i.e., psefas.
> My two cents.
>
> Barry
>
> Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
> Judaica and Theology Specialist
> Collection Development Department and
> Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
> University of Toronto Library
> 130 St. George St.
> Toronto, ON
> Canada M5S 1A5
>
> Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
> Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
> e-mail: barry.walf...@utoronto.ca
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Heb-naco 
> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] On 
> Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:47 AM
> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> Hi Smadar
>
> Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation from 
> Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan word, it's 
> been in the language long enough to be naturalized.
>
> When in doubt, check the HCM:
> http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and Yiddish 
> romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are apparently no 
> longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of use.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from 
>> Greek. As a foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but 
>> in entries it appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this 
>> discrepancy?
>> Thanks,
>> Smadar
>>
>> --
>> Smadar Shtuhl
>> Hebraica Library Specialist
>> University of Pennsylvania
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>> F. 215-573-9610
>> ssht...@upenn.edu
>>
>> ___
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
> --
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
> ___
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco



--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

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Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question: another word

[sshtuhl]

Rachel, good question. According to Even Shoshan, balagan is a 
foreign-loan word from Farsi. However, it has such a wide use in Hebrew 
that its use in a verb appears as le-valgen. Considering that, I would 
think that it would also mean that we would write: be-valagan. However, 
psefas (pesefas) had never been formed into a verb (one can jokingly say 
that le-fasfes comes from similar root) or has a wide range of uses and 
therefore, my thought was that it should be Romanized psefas.


Smadar

On 11/5/2015 12:08 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:

How aboutבלגן  ? the title is:  נוער בבלגן
So, is this considered a Hebrew word, to be Romanized as: "No'ar be-valagan"? Or "No'ar 
be-balagan"? Or simply: "No'ar ba-balagan"?

Rachel

-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. 
TALBOTT
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:58 AM
To: Barry Walfish; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Yes, upon closer inspection with my glasses "pesefas."



On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Barry Walfish <barry.walf...@utoronto.ca> wrote:

Actually, in my ES it's pesefas. But I think itshould be treated like 
psikhologyah or psikhiatriyah, i.e., psefas.
My two cents.

Barry

Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
Judaica and Theology Specialist
Collection Development Department and
Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
University of Toronto Library
130 St. George St.
Toronto, ON
Canada M5S 1A5

Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
e-mail: barry.walf...@utoronto.ca

-Original Message-
From: Heb-naco
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] On
Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation from 
Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan word, it's been in the 
language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and Yiddish romanization" 
then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are apparently no longer obliged to check 
Alcalay, though it's still of use.

Bob





On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:

Hi all,
I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from
Greek. As a foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but
in entries it appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this 
discrepancy?
Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu

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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu

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[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

[sshtuhl]

Hi all,
I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from Greek. 
As a foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but in entries 
it appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this discrepancy?

Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu

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Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

[Jasmin Shinohara]

(I think you mean טחב. :-) )

On 7/27/2015 2:18 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:


I agree with Barry that this is ki + metahaveh (which appears as a 
single word on ES, and is linked to the root טחה


However, I think the discussion is: should we consider כמטחוה-as a 
single preposition? “A distance of about...”   As such it can combine 
with קשת, תוחה, etc, and wouldn’t be unlike compound prepositions such 
as לפני, in which the etymology as separate words is not really relevant.


**

*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nf...@umd.edu

*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+nfrau=umd@lists.osu.edu] 
*On Behalf Of *Barry Walfish

*Sent:* Monday, July 27, 2015 2:07 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

I don’t see that. Question is, is the mem part of the word, as 
metahaveh, or a preposition: min tahaveh.


Even Shoshan lists it under Metahaveh, unless it changed this in the 
newer edtions (mine is from 1969). It’s a very strange word, but it 
seems like the mem is part of the construction.


Barry

*From:*Heb-naco 
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] *On 
Behalf Of *Yossi Galron

*Sent:* July 27, 2015 1:49 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization question

I would disagree:

The correct form would be (IMO) Kime-tahave as in כמטחווי-קשת

See Genesis 21:16 and ES, vol. 2, page 641


Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galro...@osu.edu mailto:galro...@osu.edu or 
jgal...@gmail.com mailto:jgal...@gmail.com

Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit 
http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit


On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 1:25 PM, Barry Walfish 
barry.walf...@utoronto.ca mailto:barry.walf...@utoronto.ca wrote:


I would go with the first option, following ES.

Barry

*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish 
mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bbarry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu 
mailto:utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner

*Sent:* July 27, 2015 1:08 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
(heb-n...@lists.service.ohio-state.edu 
mailto:heb-n...@lists.service.ohio-state.edu)

*Subject:* [Heb-NACO] romanization question

I would like some help on providing the correct romanization for

כמטחווי

Would it be:

ki-meṭaḥaṿe

or

ki-mṭaḥaṿe

Alkalay does not show a sheva under the Even-Shoshan does.

Thanks, Heidi

--

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Development Unit
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu mailto:ler...@stanford.edu
ph: 650-725-9953 tel:650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120 tel:650-725-1120


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