Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
botman, Yes they are serious buisness, very serious :-P On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:08 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: > Oh, my bad, i thought the survey was already closed from voting. > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:40 PM, John Standish wrote: > > > It updates when someone puts results in > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Nuno Silva < > little.coding@gmail.com > > >wrote: > > > > > How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people > > can > > > actually fill the survey? > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < > > > steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. > > > > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. > > > > > > > > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts > > > > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. > > > > > > > > Results: > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d > > > > > > > > > > > > Survey > > > > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
Oh, my bad, i thought the survey was already closed from voting. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:40 PM, John Standish wrote: > It updates when someone puts results in > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Nuno Silva >wrote: > > > How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people > can > > actually fill the survey? > > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < > > steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. > > > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. > > > > > > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts > > > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. > > > > > > Results: > > > - > > > > > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d > > > > > > > > > Survey > > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d > > > > > > ___ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
Yes I should have caveated that one should: *first fill it out* the survey then look at the results Needless to say this study won't have the integrity for publication in any scholary works On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Tobias Kammersgaard wrote: > Internet Surveys are serious business! > /ScarT > > > 2009/1/15 Nuno Silva > >> How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people can >> actually fill the survey? >> >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < >> steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. >> > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. >> > >> > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts >> > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. >> > >> > Results: >> > - >> > >> > >> http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d >> > >> > >> > Survey >> > >> > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d >> > >> > ___ >> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> > please visit: >> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> > >> > >> ___ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders >> >> > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
Tobias Kammersgaard wrote: > Internet Surveys are serious business! > /ScarT I was actually going to go make an internet survey that says: "Are internet surveys serious business? ( ) Yes ( ) No" ...and then post the URL, but it seemed like way too much work. -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
Internet Surveys are serious business! /ScarT 2009/1/15 Nuno Silva > How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people can > actually fill the survey? > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < > steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. > > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. > > > > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts > > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. > > > > Results: > > - > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d > > > > > > Survey > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
It updates when someone puts results in On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:35 PM, Nuno Silva wrote: > How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people can > actually fill the survey? > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < > steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. > > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. > > > > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts > > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. > > > > Results: > > - > > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d > > > > > > Survey > > > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
How about waiting for more than a couple of hours so more than 5 people can actually fill the survey? On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 7:36 PM, Steve Henderson < steven.j.hender...@gmail.com> wrote: > OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. > I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. > > I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts > that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. > > Results: > - > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d > > > Survey > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Documentation Survey Results
OK here is the link to the results...thanks to those who contributed. I apologize up front if I missed a key resource, person, idea. I hope the hard work that was put into the great resources and tuts that are available is not lost in this introspective discussion.. Results: - http://www.surveymonkey.com/sr.aspx?sm=nU9ZQyDhKM_2fe48vVC5F_2bRSU98ZKMwXDUVteHwabWtug_3d Survey http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=ljjdbBo88brT7Sf9bswa7Q_3d_3d ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
Dave Gomboc wrote: > > I'll try to get the ball rolling. > http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Edict_t is almost completely > blank (and nor is there material for CBaseEdict). The minimal > description provided, however, suggests that edict_t is not an > unimportant class. What can you tell me about it? What ought a creator > of mods and/or server plugins know about edict_t? Feel free to respond > on this mailing list, and I'll consolidate your responses into the wiki > page. We (hlcoders) had discussed edict a long time ago. I was looking back for the original post (from Jay Stelly, I believe) that said that "edict" was Carmack's term for "entity dictionary" which was basically a way to store basic properties about an entity (location, rotation, etc.). Since the engine was compiled with a specific edict structure, your mod code can not just add or remove properties to the edict structure otherwise you have a size mismatch between what the engine thinks the size of this structure is and what your mod thinks this structure is (which leads to either the engine or your mod stomping on the wrong locations in memory and causing all kinds of problems). The only thing Google points to when searching for "hlcoders quake edict" is this from Ken Birdwell... http://www.mail-archive.com/hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com/msg01215.html -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
Hello, I think the most important point in this discussion was completely ignored.. >Aren't there any 'code analyzers'? I once had a shareware program that >could read my code, and make a sort of flowchart of it. I bet there are >way more advanced stuff out there that can easily dump out a visualized >class hierarchial structure. Or else, you could try to write your own >code analyzing program. (which *could* take less time then doing the >entire source yourself..) Try something like Doxygen, or a number of other automated source analyzers which are most likely available on SourceForge.net. And at no cost.. Doxygen: http://www.stack.nl/~dimitri/doxygen/ Greetings, -Markus ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:02:52 +, Serapth Blah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >What would be cool is if you integrate these two things. i.e. have a > >tool in VC that hooks into one of these wikis and lets you > >retrieve/submit information. > > > >One approach would be to use XML and a Schema, this would allow the > >wiki and VC to display the data in different ways and would allow > >information to be catergorised. > > > >Jeff. > > That is pretty much the plan. I want to create a VS snapin that has two > functions. First, has the ability to take the selected text within the > selected context ( IE, file name/class/method ) and submits the selected > comment to the back end. Second, is an extension so pressing F1 on a HL2 > class/datatype/method will hit the sites webservice and pull back all > relevant documentation. However, its not a wiki on the back end, its a > relational database. And that is why it is useful, but not cool :) You can run wikis with a db as the back end. > Suprisingly, adding these kinds of extensions to VS2k3 > is actually not that difficult... but building the logic to grab the correct > info, that part is going to be tricky. :) I may have to enforce comments to > be in a somewhat sane format ( aka, immediatly above the method or class ) > in order to parse correctly. That said, I think 95% of people comment > pretty much the same way position wise anyways. My point is that taking the extra step and intergrating this in to a wiki is relatively simple but increases the useability and attractiveness of the project, imho. Jeff. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
What would be cool is if you integrate these two things. i.e. have a tool in VC that hooks into one of these wikis and lets you retrieve/submit information. One approach would be to use XML and a Schema, this would allow the wiki and VC to display the data in different ways and would allow information to be catergorised. Jeff. That is pretty much the plan. I want to create a VS snapin that has two functions. First, has the ability to take the selected text within the selected context ( IE, file name/class/method ) and submits the selected comment to the back end. Second, is an extension so pressing F1 on a HL2 class/datatype/method will hit the sites webservice and pull back all relevant documentation. However, its not a wiki on the back end, its a relational database. Suprisingly, adding these kinds of extensions to VS2k3 is actually not that difficult... but building the logic to grab the correct info, that part is going to be tricky. :) I may have to enforce comments to be in a somewhat sane format ( aka, immediatly above the method or class ) in order to parse correctly. That said, I think 95% of people comment pretty much the same way position wise anyways. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:26:37 -0600, jeff broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:56:14 +, Serapth Blah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > > What negatives do you see? > > > > Thanks, > > Mike > > If you are new to this list, you should first check out some of the > HL2 wiki websites, like... > > http://www.sourcewiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page > http://www.hl2-dev.com/wiki/index.php > > ...or others. Search the archives for a couple of others. > What would be cool is if you integrate these two things. i.e. have a tool in VC that hooks into one of these wikis and lets you retrieve/submit information. One approach would be to use XML and a Schema, this would allow the wiki and VC to display the data in different ways and would allow information to be catergorised. Jeff. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
S. Hendriks wrote: Sure, and the guys who made the mods get some pretty good jobs as well... (and can realize their dreams). I don't see a sort of abusing here, its Valve's right to buy these games as they developed the engine + materials to get them even going. And those who get hired + get interest sales, are getting their cut as well. Of course being 'nice' is not the 'only' purpose of Valve. Yet, its better then saying "hey, we got a url, and you got the sdk. Go play with it and don't bug us while we are working on HL3.5 :P" Eh, how did we get from nice to abuse? The experience you gain while doing a job is irrelevant - you get "paid" for what you produce. Sigh, this is a stupid thread, let's drop it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
jeff broome wrote: > Yes. Everyone understands your point. Look at this from Valve's point of view. You have X engineers that cost you Y dollars per day. You can have those engineers working on the next product (Half-Life3) that you KNOW will bring in revenue, or you can have them work on documentation that will be used by outside people (which you have no control over) which MIGHT bring in some additional revenue. From a purely cost effective standpoint, which choice would you pick if you were Gabe and it was your money? :) I would, no doubt, design the engine to be as modable as possible. Don't try and tell me counter-strike or dod hasn't been good to valve. Besides, you don't have to to this RUP-style, but you don't have to put in much effort to make it easier to get into (and you comment as you code, not afterwards, or a different person..). ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Documentation
Sure, and the guys who made the mods get some pretty good jobs as well... (and can realize their dreams). I don't see a sort of abusing here, its Valve's right to buy these games as they developed the engine + materials to get them even going. And those who get hired + get interest sales, are getting their cut as well. Of course being 'nice' is not the 'only' purpose of Valve. Yet, its better then saying "hey, we got a url, and you got the sdk. Go play with it and don't bug us while we are working on HL3.5 :P" === Stefan Hendriks FunDynamic & RealBot http://www.fundynamic.nl http://realbot.bots-united.com http://www.bots-united.com === -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 22:16 Aan: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Onderwerp: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation S. Hendriks wrote: > Actually you pay for HL2 itself and get the SDK as a free optional > tool. So everything that Valve provides is in courtisy and cannot be > held as a product you payed for and can force 'support' from ;) In > that sense, Valve is doing a very good job! Replying to mails, > contributing to this list. Updating the sdk and source engine by user > input. Very neat! > Eh. My point is, they don't (and shouldn't - I know I wouldn't!) do this to be nice. As I tried explaining earlier, modsupport is a *very* strong selling-point (cs, ro, dod, tf, sf etc etc) and they have nothing but profits and fame to make from it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
I would be willing to pay extra to get a full (or nearly fully) documented copy of the SDK. I would save me enough time to make it worthwhile. On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:20:12 +0100, S. Hendriks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Actually you pay for HL2 itself and get the SDK as a free optional tool. > So everything that Valve provides is in courtisy and cannot be held as a > product you payed for and can force 'support' from ;) In that sense, > Valve is doing a very good job! Replying to mails, contributing to this > list. Updating the sdk and source engine by user input. Very neat! > > === > Stefan Hendriks > FunDynamic & RealBot > http://www.fundynamic.nl > http://realbot.bots-united.com > http://www.bots-united.com > > === > > -Oorspronkelijk bericht- > Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens jeff broome > Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 19:37 > Aan: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com > Onderwerp: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation > > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date > > with development techniques...). > > I'd say Valve's "techniques" are just fine. The game runs good on most > machines. The game has sold many copies which is a fairly good > indication that people like what Valve has done. > > As far as lack of SDK documentation goes, you get what you pay for. How > much did the SDK code again? I forget. And don't tell me that you > "paid" for the SDK by buying the game, unless you bought the game, > installed it and then never played the game. > > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- = Childe Roland "I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans." ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:15:57 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Eh. My point is, they don't (and shouldn't - I know I wouldn't!) do this > to be nice. As I tried explaining earlier, modsupport is a *very* strong > selling-point (cs, ro, dod, tf, sf etc etc) and they have nothing but > profits and fame to make from it. > Yes. Everyone understands your point. Look at this from Valve's point of view. You have X engineers that cost you Y dollars per day. You can have those engineers working on the next product (Half-Life3) that you KNOW will bring in revenue, or you can have them work on documentation that will be used by outside people (which you have no control over) which MIGHT bring in some additional revenue. >From a purely cost effective standpoint, which choice would you pick if you were Gabe and it was your money? :) Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
S. Hendriks wrote: Actually you pay for HL2 itself and get the SDK as a free optional tool. So everything that Valve provides is in courtisy and cannot be held as a product you payed for and can force 'support' from ;) In that sense, Valve is doing a very good job! Replying to mails, contributing to this list. Updating the sdk and source engine by user input. Very neat! Eh. My point is, they don't (and shouldn't - I know I wouldn't!) do this to be nice. As I tried explaining earlier, modsupport is a *very* strong selling-point (cs, ro, dod, tf, sf etc etc) and they have nothing but profits and fame to make from it. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Documentation
Actually you pay for HL2 itself and get the SDK as a free optional tool. So everything that Valve provides is in courtisy and cannot be held as a product you payed for and can force 'support' from ;) In that sense, Valve is doing a very good job! Replying to mails, contributing to this list. Updating the sdk and source engine by user input. Very neat! === Stefan Hendriks FunDynamic & RealBot http://www.fundynamic.nl http://realbot.bots-united.com http://www.bots-united.com === -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens jeff broome Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 19:37 Aan: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Onderwerp: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date > with development techniques...). I'd say Valve's "techniques" are just fine. The game runs good on most machines. The game has sold many copies which is a fairly good indication that people like what Valve has done. As far as lack of SDK documentation goes, you get what you pay for. How much did the SDK code again? I forget. And don't tell me that you "paid" for the SDK by buying the game, unless you bought the game, installed it and then never played the game. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Documentation
Aren't there any 'code analyzers'? I once had a shareware program that could read my code, and make a sort of flowchart of it. I bet there are way more advanced stuff out there that can easily dump out a visualized class hierarchial structure. Or else, you could try to write your own code analyzing program. (which *could* take less time then doing the entire source yourself..) === Stefan Hendriks FunDynamic & RealBot http://www.fundynamic.nl http://realbot.bots-united.com http://www.bots-united.com === -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Serapth Blah Verzonden: woensdag 26 januari 2005 19:35 Aan: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Onderwerp: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation I think your missing the point of what im trying to do here. I have *zero* intention of writing documentation, well not after the first little bit anyways. Im more creating a tool+repository where documentation is submitted. Plus, with the documentation etc that it submitted being data based, all kindsa funky things can be done to it, namedly it can be searched, compilied into help files compatible with VS, etc. Personally, I think the concept of manually pulling tons of information together and building a CHM file out of it, would be about as exciting as watching paint dry. That said, I dont mind a computer doing it. >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com >Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation >Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100 > >I dunno, I think this sounds like a *very* boring project (come on, who >actually LIKES to write documentation?), and I doubt you'd get much >help. I too feel the SDK could be more documented but it is not our job >(you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date >with development techniques...). > >I don't mind sharing my findings though, and this is why a >wiki-solution is a much better idea IMO. > >Ofcourse, if you were to write a 400-page documentation with no >misleadings, I wouldn't start crying. :) > > >___ >To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
I think it would be in Valve's own interest to provide good documentation for the SDK. If there is a lot of mods, the interest in the game rises, and Valve makes more profit. Of course there is an other way, letting the community do most of the work, but it may slow things down for modders. I personally have no problem with Source SDK documentation, or the lack thereof; mainly because I'm only working on Server Plugins and I only read the documentation / manual when something goes wrong. Also, when you think about it, paying for the SDK would be actually an insane idea, because they make more money when there are more good mods; YOU should be payed if you create a good mod rather than that. jeff broome schrieb: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date with development techniques...). I'd say Valve's "techniques" are just fine. The game runs good on most machines. The game has sold many copies which is a fairly good indication that people like what Valve has done. As far as lack of SDK documentation goes, you get what you pay for. How much did the SDK code again? I forget. And don't tell me that you "paid" for the SDK by buying the game, unless you bought the game, installed it and then never played the game. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
jeff broome wrote: > I'd say Valve's "techniques" are just fine. The game runs good on most machines. The game has sold many copies which is a fairly good indication that people like what Valve has done. Eh? How on earth does "copies sold" or "scalability" indicate good development techniques? You can make "shit work" very many ways.. As far as lack of SDK documentation goes, you get what you pay for. How much did the SDK code again? I forget. And don't tell me that you "paid" for the SDK by buying the game, unless you bought the game, installed it and then never played the game. What, you think they are making the game modifiable to be nice? You think the make something unreal-contest was because they wanted to be nice? Come on, modding is big bussiness, and Valve with it's counter-strike is very aware of this. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
such as Valve was more up-to-date with development techniques...). I dont see what's wrong with their techniques. Documenting a SDK , costs a lot of $$. And mind you, thats for documenting a API. Documenting a hughe source tree , such as hl2 would be very expensive. Dan - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:26 PM Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation I dunno, I think this sounds like a *very* boring project (come on, who actually LIKES to write documentation?), and I doubt you'd get much help. I too feel the SDK could be more documented but it is not our job (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date with development techniques...). I don't mind sharing my findings though, and this is why a wiki-solution is a much better idea IMO. Ofcourse, if you were to write a 400-page documentation with no misleadings, I wouldn't start crying. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
I think your missing the point of what im trying to do here. I have *zero* intention of writing documentation, well not after the first little bit anyways. Im more creating a tool+repository where documentation is submitted. Plus, with the documentation etc that it submitted being data based, all kindsa funky things can be done to it, namedly it can be searched, compilied into help files compatible with VS, etc. Personally, I think the concept of manually pulling tons of information together and building a CHM file out of it, would be about as exciting as watching paint dry. That said, I dont mind a computer doing it. From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Documentation Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100 I dunno, I think this sounds like a *very* boring project (come on, who actually LIKES to write documentation?), and I doubt you'd get much help. I too feel the SDK could be more documented but it is not our job (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date with development techniques...). I don't mind sharing my findings though, and this is why a wiki-solution is a much better idea IMO. Ofcourse, if you were to write a 400-page documentation with no misleadings, I wouldn't start crying. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:37:02 -0600, jeff broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How much did the SDK code again? Ick..., "code" = "cost". Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:26:40 +0100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date > with development techniques...). I'd say Valve's "techniques" are just fine. The game runs good on most machines. The game has sold many copies which is a fairly good indication that people like what Valve has done. As far as lack of SDK documentation goes, you get what you pay for. How much did the SDK code again? I forget. And don't tell me that you "paid" for the SDK by buying the game, unless you bought the game, installed it and then never played the game. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
I dunno, I think this sounds like a *very* boring project (come on, who actually LIKES to write documentation?), and I doubt you'd get much help. I too feel the SDK could be more documented but it is not our job (you'd think a large software corp such as Valve was more up-to-date with development techniques...). I don't mind sharing my findings though, and this is why a wiki-solution is a much better idea IMO. Ofcourse, if you were to write a 400-page documentation with no misleadings, I wouldn't start crying. :) ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
I think this is a great idea, assuming it can be done. I have experienced similar frustrations concerning startup effort with repect to learning the SDK, in spite of years of coding experience. The various coding sites, wikis, tutorials, and this mailing list have been helpful but not enough. Conversely, I share Botman's scepticism that such a project will work. His list of hurdles is intimidating. VERY best of luck. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
Thanks for the thorough response Jeff, much appreciated. I hope you are independantly wealthy and have a full 40 hours a week to spend on such a project, because that's about what it will take to put something like this together over the next 6 months or so. Unfortunately, not independently wealthy, but I do have a fair bit of free time at the moment. I do realize the scope of the project I am planning to take on here, but I am building up from a core and refining it from there. So, I think it will take substantially less then 6 months to get it usable, and I also believe it will take way longer ( perhaps never ), to have it finished. I looked at the wikis, the dont particularly provide the functionality I wanted. On top of that, the require a lot of work to a few people. Basically, someone writes up a tutorial/document, and another person posts it. To static for my liking. Im not really talking about dealing with documents, more data. Plus, I hope to have basically everyone able to submit new entries, then require a few people to be moderators that allow those updates to be rejected/denied, so as a few rogue people cannot populate the site with garbage. Also realize that the Source engine interface is DYNAMIC. True this. It is going to be a pain in the butt. However, it isnt so different from what a wiki or tutorial site faces. Hopefully the class structure doesnt change too much. But your right, this is one of those things I will need to tackle. Also, don't overestimate how much people in the community will contribute to such a project. Most MOD coders are WAY too busy to spend all their time creating detailed documentation about what they've learned. This I also agree with 100%. This is why I was planning to add a Visual Studio add-in, so people could contribute documentation, without having to disrupt their workflow. Think along the lines of, right click the class in your code, and it extracts your comment block and submits it to a web service on the site. Granted, this feature might be a bit delayed. The problem is, that these experienced coders that you want to attact are the same ones that are in high demand to work on MODs and they are the ones that are already too busy trying to get everything together for the MOD they are currently working on. I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, I have to imagine a fair number of the more experienced coders are already making some form of documentation or code comments, whatever, as they are digging through the code now. What I am trying to provide is a service/community where all of these types of tasks can be shared. It should in theory take about the same amount of time as a not shared version. It seems like you are taking on a Herculean task. Perhaps you might want to start with some of the simpler tasks, and once those are complete, consider some of the other items you've listed here. Compared to some of the things I am asked to do at work, not really :-). I am however, starting it off fairly simple. I just want to make sure the core of what I create can expand to accommodate the features the community would need. I suppose I need to get some form of prototype in place, and then solicit feedback from a few developers out there. I was hoping to try and get some of that information up front, but I can see how that would be a difficult thing to do. Cheers, Mike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 03:56:14 +, Serapth Blah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello all, > What negatives do you see? > > Thanks, > Mike I hope you are independantly wealthy and have a full 40 hours a week to spend on such a project, because that's about what it will take to put something like this together over the next 6 months or so. If you are new to this list, you should first check out some of the HL2 wiki websites, like... http://www.sourcewiki.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page http://www.hl2-dev.com/wiki/index.php ...or others. Search the archives for a couple of others. Much of what you want to do is better accomplished using Wiki so that many people can create/edit/correct the documentation instead of just one or two or a select few people doing it. Also realize that the Source engine interface is DYNAMIC. Things are changing, new updates go out every few weeks, which means that some of the game/engine interface is likely to change over the next few months (and new SDK releases will make those changes available to the general public). Whatever you document today, may be out of date tomorrow. If you start creating detailed documenation too soon on something that is very dynamic, it will be more difficult and frustrating to keep up to date. Also, don't overestimate how much people in the community will contribute to such a project. Most MOD coders are WAY too busy to spend all their time creating detailed documentation about what they've learned. That's one of the reasons you find so very few GOOD detailed tutorials on creating code for Half-Life and Half-Life2. You should begin the project with the assumption that YOU ALONE will be the one creating all the content and documentation. You may have some sporadic help here and there from some members of the community, but it would be a very rare thing to find someone dedicated enough to stick with the project for more than a few months. Also, in order to fully understand things properly, you want to attract experienced coders that understand the complexities of the engine and the subsystems that go along with it. You will find that a great majority of the coders in the Half-Life community are just getting started in coding and don't have much experience in data structures, 3D mathematics, rendering algorithms, etc. People who aren't as experienced are going to have greater difficulty making heads or tails out of much of the SDK code. The problem is, that these experienced coders that you want to attact are the same ones that are in high demand to work on MODs and they are the ones that are already too busy trying to get everything together for the MOD they are currently working on. It seems like you are taking on a Herculean task. Perhaps you might want to start with some of the simpler tasks, and once those are complete, consider some of the other items you've listed here. I wish you luck in your project and I hope that you are able to put together some information that will benefit the HL2 community. Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Documentation
Hello all, I am currently in the process of putting together a web application for documenting the HalfLife 2 source base. I bought HL2 with the intent of creating a mod just for fun, and frankly the lack of documentation pretty much brought me to a standstill. I could work my way through it, but frankly I'd rather see more information available before re-inventing the physgun (er, wheel). I know its a fairly recent release so I dont expect too much, but from looking at all the forums, chats, etc... I realized that there really isnt that good of a place for storing all the information needed to work around all the nooks and cranies. Plus, no knock against valve here, but the commenting in the code isnt as detailed as I would have hoped. Granted, you can figure things out, but it takes quite a bit of pain to do so. So, im creating a website. Im in the fairly early stages, and I know first hand that without user support there is no value in such a project... so I wanted to get user feedback before I got too far along. From what ive learned thusfar, the most knowledgable users are here on this mailing list, so what better place to get feedback? Basically, I have just a few simple questions. In a community based documentation site, what all would you look for? Currently I plan the following, let me know if you think a feature is pointless, or if there is a feature you think you would really need. * ability to document each api call, starting from the file, to the class to the function level * comprehensive search abilities * inline comments thread to comment on gotcha's, etc, with each of the above * ability to search based off function/class/var name, and get back all relevant information * ability to post code for workarounds to known problems * Visual Studio 2k3 based addin, so F1 help would hit site and pull up relevant documentation in your IDE * Ability for site to, say monthly, turn all database related function documentation into a logical .chm or .pdf file * another VS2k3 addin that allows person to submit comments/documentation from their IDE to the website on a particular class/function/file/datatype. * no ads. Im doing this because I need the output from the community ( aka, I could use this information myself! ), and frankly, I hate ads myself. * threaded conversation to any of the above entries, so any and all users can add their own experiences with a given aspect of the api I have the basic framework for this site in place, and am continuing to develop away. I have hosting, SQL, etc all set up, and the framework code in place. Mostly now, its just a matter of deciding what features are most important to the community, and if, in fact a community would sprout around such an idea. I know there are wiki's and such inplace now, but they just dont provide the level of interaction I think is needed. So, I guess I leave you all with a few simple questions. Would a site like this interest you? If so, what features would you wish? Would you being willing to participate in the rocky going early phase once things develop a bit further? What negatives do you see? Thanks, Mike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation with sdk
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Okay its uploading give it about 5mins then check out www.moddev.net/sdk22/ for a listing and all the files. - *VALVe* Well I was doing this I noticed an error in the files that the SDK 2.2 full install creates. It made a file called "Modeling for Hallf-Life" instead of Half-Life. No biggy obviously, just fix it in the next go around. Regards, Lakario - Original Message - From: Christopher Long Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hlcoders] Documentation with sdk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Has anyone got the docs sitting on server space somewhere i could leech? The only ones i got with final standard sdk 2.2 were hlvoice and hltv that was it. Actually come to think of it i have never had the documentation docs with any version of the sdk i have gotten... is it because i have downloaded the source only version? Anyhow they are no where on my hdd hiding i checked if someone could post a link i'd be most grateful. thanks in advance. -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcodersGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Documentation with sdk
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I'll get you em, sit tight. - Original Message - From: Christopher Long Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 7:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hlcoders] Documentation with sdk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Has anyone got the docs sitting on server space somewhere i could leech? The only ones i got with final standard sdk 2.2 were hlvoice and hltv that was it. Actually come to think of it i have never had the documentation docs with any version of the sdk i have gotten... is it because i have downloaded the source only version? Anyhow they are no where on my hdd hiding i checked if someone could post a link i'd be most grateful. thanks in advance. -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcodersGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
[hlcoders] Documentation with sdk
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Has anyone got the docs sitting on server space somewhere i could leech? The only ones i got with final standard sdk 2.2 were hlvoice and hltv that was it. Actually come to think of it i have never had the documentation docs with any version of the sdk i have gotten... is it because i have downloaded the source only version? Anyhow they are no where on my hdd hiding i checked if someone could post a link i'd be most grateful. thanks in advance. -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
