RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
> With this post you sorta imply that you will be releasing an > update that fixes the vehicles problems. Do you plan on > doing that, or was I simply misreading it? It's not being worked on right now. The SDK already has a framework for writing your own predicted entities. The client DLL has full control over the simulation and rendering of these entities. But you have to do that work if you want to get predicted vehicles into a multiplayer mod right now. There is no built-in solution in the SDK. > I am having a lot > of problems trying to transfer the vehicles to client side. > Can you give me some tips, or preferebly some example code > (besides whats in the SDK) to get me started? There isn't any example code to send. If we had some it would be in the SDK already. > How do the IVehicle, IclientVehicle, and Iservervehicle work > with relation to each other? Are these going to have to be > consolidated into one, or which class should most of this > consolidation take place in? There seems to be so much that > goes in either client or server that it would be impossible > to code it in both. I really need some help here, and would > appreciate it if the guys at valve who wrote and > (should) know this code could give me some real help. If I > do get it working I plan on posting advice on Wiki to allow > other modders to get it done without having to pull all of > their hair out. IVehicle is the base interface. You can use all of its functions from shared code (or client code or server code). IClientVehicle is the stuff that's only implemented on the client-side of the vehicle code (view, fov, prediction, hud) IServerVehicle is the stuff that's only implemented on the server (game rules stuff & passenger handling) These can all be changed in a mod, but it shouldn't be necessary to make tons of changes here. Basically, the above interfaces define vehicles without defining any of the simulation. So a "vehicle" in this case could simply be a mounted gun or some other thing that has its own rules for overriding the player's view & movement. That's the basic purpose of this stuff. The other vehicle stuff (fourwheelvehicle, etc) is for working with the specific body+suspension+wheels physics simulation that vphysics provides. A good starting point would be to put together something like a mounted gun (that isn't simulated) and build up that to use client-side prediction. Jay ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
With this post you sorta imply that you will be releasing an update that fixes the vehicles problems. Do you plan on doing that, or was I simply misreading it? I am having a lot of problems trying to transfer the vehicles to client side. Can you give me some tips, or preferebly some example code (besides whats in the SDK) to get me started? How do the IVehicle, IclientVehicle, and Iservervehicle work with relation to each other? Are these going to have to be consolidated into one, or which class should most of this consolidation take place in? There seems to be so much that goes in either client or server that it would be impossible to code it in both. I really need some help here, and would appreciate it if the guys at valve who wrote and (should) know this code could give me some real help. If I do get it working I plan on posting advice on Wiki to allow other modders to get it done without having to pull all of their hair out. On 12/14/04, Jay Stelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no > > go for the source engine? > > This is totally not true. The SDK does not currently have an optimized > network data model for vehicles, but it's completely possible to > optimize (or otherwise redefine) the network data for vehicles in a mod. > The current implementation works well for single player games, but it > does use a fair amount of bandwidth. It would be straightforward to > move much of the data over to the client and out of the network stream. > Without doing more analysis of your mod and the current bandwidth usage > of vehicles it's hard to say how much you'd need to strip from the > stream. > > I don't have a date for when we'll release an internally developed > solution. > > Jay -- = Childe Roland "I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans." ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
> Why would the preprocessor be inserting that extra C when I clarly > have CPropCGJeep being changed to C_PropCGjeep? I'm not going to bother looking into it particularly deeply (:P) but keep in mind that IMPLEMENT_NETWORKCLASS_ALIASED is a macro. Look up its definition; you're probably using it incorrectly or missing some associated requirement. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Ok, so I decided to create my own vehicle class, CPropCGjeep. It derives from CPropVehicleDriveable on the server side, and C_PropVehicleDriveable on the client side. I did this using an #ifdef CLIENT_DLL like is shown many times in the code. #include "cbase.h" #ifdef CLIENT_DLL #include "c_prop_vehicle.h" #include "c_baseplayer.h" #define CPropCGjeep C_PropCGjeep #define CPropVehicleDriveable C_PropVehicleDriveable #else #include "vehicle_base.h" #include "baseplayer.h" #endif #include "movevars_shared.h" #include "view.h" #include "flashlighteffect.h" #include "c_te_effect_dispatch.h" #include "CBaseVehicles.h" However, when I declare this: IMPLEMENT_NETWORKCLASS_ALIASED( CPropCGjeep, DT_PropCGjeep ) The compiler gives me the error: error C2653: 'C_CPropCGjeep' : is not a class or namespace name Why would the preprocessor be inserting that extra C when I clarly have CPropCGJeep being changed to C_PropCGjeep? Also, am I going about this the right way? Will I be able to derive that shared class from 2 completely different classes (CPropVehicleDriveable, C_PropVehicleDriveable) and still have it 'sync' up? On 4/21/05, Childe Roland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I was wondering if you can give me a clue on how to start. Perhaps > you could move one of the functions client side as a demo? I really > have no idea how your guys' netcode works or how to begin moving > things to the client side. Any hints or links you can give me that > may give me a start on how to do this would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. > > On 12/15/04, Yahn Bernier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a > > networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next > > generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is sent > > for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots of logic > > over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, you could > > make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. > > > > Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce > > bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run > > into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we > > can give real answers to. > > > > I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy to > > help with any technical issues along the way. > > > > Yahn > > > > -- > = > Childe Roland > "I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans." > -- = Childe Roland "I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans." ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Childe Roland wrote: Ok, so I decided to create my own vehicle class, CPropCGjeep. It derives from CPropVehicleDriveable on the server side, and C_PropVehicleDriveable on the client side. I did this using an #ifdef CLIENT_DLL like is shown many times in the code. However, when I declare this: IMPLEMENT_NETWORKCLASS_ALIASED( CPropCGjeep, DT_PropCGjeep ) The compiler gives me the error: error C2653: 'C_CPropCGjeep' : is not a class or namespace name IMPLEMENT_NETWORKCLASS_ALIASED is defines as follows... #define IMPLEMENT_NETWORKCLASS_ALIASED(className, dataTable) \ IMPLEMENT_CLIENTCLASS( C_##className, dataTable, C##className ) ...so it makes the assumption that the class CWhatever on the server will be mirrored by the class C_CWhatever on the client (the macro prepends an additional "C_" to the class name. If your class on the server is "CPropCGjeep", then your class on the client had better be "C_CPropCGjeep". -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
I was wondering if you can give me a clue on how to start. Perhaps you could move one of the functions client side as a demo? I really have no idea how your guys' netcode works or how to begin moving things to the client side. Any hints or links you can give me that may give me a start on how to do this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. On 12/15/04, Yahn Bernier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a > networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next > generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is sent > for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots of logic > over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, you could > make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. > > Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce > bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run > into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we > can give real answers to. > > I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy to > help with any technical issues along the way. > > Yahn > -- = Childe Roland "I will show you fear in a handful of jellybeans." ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Optimizations, and lots of them. I took out everything that wasn't needed for our mod (guns, boosters, etc) On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 00:06:19 -0600, Childe Roland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can you give some hings on how you managed to do that? I am planning > on having many vehicles in my mod, and don't have the time to rewrite > the netcode right now. > > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:08:38 +1000, Teddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've since done a lot of optimizing on the vehicles in our mod and > > have gotten the network traffic down to about 1kb/sec per vehicle > > being driven. This is fine for our mod, we should be able to have half > > a dozen vehicles on a map at one time. > > > > I'm sure if you moved more stuff over to the client you could cut this > > down to a very insignificant amount of bandwidth and fit 32 vehicles > > on a server. Luckily, i don't have to go through that pain ;) > > > > Teddy > > http://dystopia-mod.com/ > > > > > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:10 +1000, Teddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > In our preliminary tests, we found that if someone jumps in a vehicle, > > > it adds a permanent 2-4kb/sec of incoming data to each client (from > > > the server). Needless to say, can't have too many of these on a map, > > > especially if you want some bandwidth for physics props. > > > > > > Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot > > > before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:08:51 -0500, ChessMess > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I've read in some postings that there is net issues regarding vehicles > > > > and multiplayer. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone had any > > > > experience with multiplayer vehicles in thier mod? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ChessMess > > > > Stratactic Studios > > > > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > -- > > Childe Roland > "I will show you fear in a handful of jelly beans." > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Can you give some hings on how you managed to do that? I am planning on having many vehicles in my mod, and don't have the time to rewrite the netcode right now. On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 13:08:38 +1000, Teddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've since done a lot of optimizing on the vehicles in our mod and > have gotten the network traffic down to about 1kb/sec per vehicle > being driven. This is fine for our mod, we should be able to have half > a dozen vehicles on a map at one time. > > I'm sure if you moved more stuff over to the client you could cut this > down to a very insignificant amount of bandwidth and fit 32 vehicles > on a server. Luckily, i don't have to go through that pain ;) > > Teddy > http://dystopia-mod.com/ > > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:10 +1000, Teddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > In our preliminary tests, we found that if someone jumps in a vehicle, > > it adds a permanent 2-4kb/sec of incoming data to each client (from > > the server). Needless to say, can't have too many of these on a map, > > especially if you want some bandwidth for physics props. > > > > Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot > > before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer > > > > > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:08:51 -0500, ChessMess > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I've read in some postings that there is net issues regarding vehicles > > > and multiplayer. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone had any > > > experience with multiplayer vehicles in thier mod? > > > > > > -- > > > ChessMess > > > Stratactic Studios > > > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > > > > > ___ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- Childe Roland "I will show you fear in a handful of jelly beans." ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
I've since done a lot of optimizing on the vehicles in our mod and have gotten the network traffic down to about 1kb/sec per vehicle being driven. This is fine for our mod, we should be able to have half a dozen vehicles on a map at one time. I'm sure if you moved more stuff over to the client you could cut this down to a very insignificant amount of bandwidth and fit 32 vehicles on a server. Luckily, i don't have to go through that pain ;) Teddy http://dystopia-mod.com/ On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:36:10 +1000, Teddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In our preliminary tests, we found that if someone jumps in a vehicle, > it adds a permanent 2-4kb/sec of incoming data to each client (from > the server). Needless to say, can't have too many of these on a map, > especially if you want some bandwidth for physics props. > > Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot > before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer > > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:08:51 -0500, ChessMess > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've read in some postings that there is net issues regarding vehicles > > and multiplayer. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone had any > > experience with multiplayer vehicles in thier mod? > > > > -- > > ChessMess > > Stratactic Studios > > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Good to hear Yahn! On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:18:33 -0800, Yahn Bernier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I wish I had more. I'll probably do what I did on HL1 which was that > when people get pretty far along but get stuck with bugs, etc., I was > able to run their code against a debug engine and track down some of the > weirder issues. I think we'll be able to help in that way, definitely. > > Getting you guys more documentation is an ongoing effort in which we are > actively engaged. > > Yahn > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:26 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles > > Yahn we'd love to do that 32 vehicle mod... however coding has fallen to > me until I can find a dedicated coder and I"m new at this and have to > wear Coder, PR, Webmaster, PM, and many other assorted hats... > while preparing for a newborn in a month ta boot! Got any free time you > want to dedicate to a mod? lol :) > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:42:38 -0800, Yahn Bernier > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a > > networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next > > generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is > > sent for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots > > of logic over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, > > you could make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. > > > > Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce > > bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run > > > into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we > > can give real answers to. > > > > I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy > > to help with any technical issues along the way. > > > > Yahn > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess > > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:13 PM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles > > > > Almost seems that BF2 is going to be what we need rather then HL2. > > Don't get me wrong... I've been dying to do HL2.. but if we can only > > realistically expect a minor handful of vehicles to be usable at any > > one time without Lag issues... we'll its definetly a major > > consideration that has to be evaluated. > > > > I would suspect many mods are pretty much of the mindset that vehicles > > > are a given and that any new engine should be able to handle it > > without issue on a mutliplayer environment, especially considering the > > > standard set by the BF series in that regard. > > > > How many mods here have vehicles as a large component of thier design? > > > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:37:55 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: > > > > C&c renegade. Heh > > > > I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about > > > > vehicles, > > > > > > and I get 20 latency or so. > > > > > > > > Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but > > > > ;) > > > > > > Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. > > > physics > > > > > engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of > > > joints, constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. > > > > > > UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles > > > going > > > > > in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are > > > fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the > > > minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the > > > clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. > > > > > > -- > > > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > > > > > ___ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > > archives, > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ChessMess > > Stratactic Studios > > http://www.StratacticStudi
RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
I wish I had more. I'll probably do what I did on HL1 which was that when people get pretty far along but get stuck with bugs, etc., I was able to run their code against a debug engine and track down some of the weirder issues. I think we'll be able to help in that way, definitely. Getting you guys more documentation is an ongoing effort in which we are actively engaged. Yahn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 12:26 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles Yahn we'd love to do that 32 vehicle mod... however coding has fallen to me until I can find a dedicated coder and I"m new at this and have to wear Coder, PR, Webmaster, PM, and many other assorted hats... while preparing for a newborn in a month ta boot! Got any free time you want to dedicate to a mod? lol :) On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:42:38 -0800, Yahn Bernier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a > networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next > generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is > sent for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots > of logic over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, > you could make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. > > Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce > bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run > into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we > can give real answers to. > > I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy > to help with any technical issues along the way. > > Yahn > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:13 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles > > Almost seems that BF2 is going to be what we need rather then HL2. > Don't get me wrong... I've been dying to do HL2.. but if we can only > realistically expect a minor handful of vehicles to be usable at any > one time without Lag issues... we'll its definetly a major > consideration that has to be evaluated. > > I would suspect many mods are pretty much of the mindset that vehicles > are a given and that any new engine should be able to handle it > without issue on a mutliplayer environment, especially considering the > standard set by the BF series in that regard. > > How many mods here have vehicles as a large component of thier design? > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:37:55 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: > > > C&c renegade. Heh > > > I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about > > > vehicles, > > > > and I get 20 latency or so. > > > > > > Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but > > > ;) > > > > Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. > > physics > > > engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of > > joints, constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. > > > > UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles > > going > > > in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are > > fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the > > minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the > > clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > -- > ChessMess > Stratactic Studios > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Yahn we'd love to do that 32 vehicle mod... however coding has fallen to me until I can find a dedicated coder and I"m new at this and have to wear Coder, PR, Webmaster, PM, and many other assorted hats... while preparing for a newborn in a month ta boot! Got any free time you want to dedicate to a mod? lol :) On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:42:38 -0800, Yahn Bernier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a > networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next > generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is sent > for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots of logic > over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, you could > make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. > > Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce > bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run > into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we > can give real answers to. > > I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy to > help with any technical issues along the way. > > Yahn > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess > Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:13 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles > > Almost seems that BF2 is going to be what we need rather then HL2. > Don't get me wrong... I've been dying to do HL2.. but if we can only > realistically expect a minor handful of vehicles to be usable at any one > time without Lag issues... we'll its definetly a major consideration > that has to be evaluated. > > I would suspect many mods are pretty much of the mindset that vehicles > are a given and that any new engine should be able to handle it without > issue on a mutliplayer environment, especially considering the standard > set by the BF series in that regard. > > How many mods here have vehicles as a large component of thier design? > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:37:55 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: > > > C&c renegade. Heh > > > I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about vehicles, > > > > and I get 20 latency or so. > > > > > > Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but > > > ;) > > > > Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. physics > > > engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of > > joints, constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. > > > > UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles going > > > in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are > > fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the > > minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the > > clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > > -- > ChessMess > Stratactic Studios > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
You should be able to make your vehicles as lightweight from a networking point of view in Source as in any other current or next generation engine. You have complete control over how much data is sent for each vehicle and it's generally not too tricky to move lots of logic over to the client to avoid having to network it. In fact, you could make vehicles nearly 100% client side if you so desired. Jay or I are happy to provide specific suggestions on how to reduce bandwidth usage by vehicles/phyics/players/weapons or whatever you run into, but you'll need to formulate a plan so you can ask questions we can give real answers to. I'd love to see someone try to do a 32 vehicle game and we'd be happy to help with any technical issues along the way. Yahn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ChessMess Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 8:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles Almost seems that BF2 is going to be what we need rather then HL2. Don't get me wrong... I've been dying to do HL2.. but if we can only realistically expect a minor handful of vehicles to be usable at any one time without Lag issues... we'll its definetly a major consideration that has to be evaluated. I would suspect many mods are pretty much of the mindset that vehicles are a given and that any new engine should be able to handle it without issue on a mutliplayer environment, especially considering the standard set by the BF series in that regard. How many mods here have vehicles as a large component of thier design? On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:37:55 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: > > C&c renegade. Heh > > I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about vehicles, > > and I get 20 latency or so. > > > > Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but > > ;) > > Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. physics > engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of > joints, constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. > > UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles going > in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are > fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the > minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the > clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
I'm not sure... I guess the only way to know is to try. :) Just wish I felt a bit more reassured about the outcome. On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 10:50:55 +, Andrew 45yrf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If your mod is only going to be boats, then wouldnt the lack of > acctually base players being replaced with vehicles balance out the > bandwidth issues slightly? > > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:10:38 +0100, tei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Has other nice guy say (botman?) you can always cheat (maybe use "fliing > > vehicles" but fake a water plane, or something similar) or has Jay say, > > you can optimize the sdk for your purpose > > > > total conversions are much more about breaktrough than to continue > > clonning stuff... its normal to push the limits with TC > > > > > > ChessMess wrote: > > > I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point > > > of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone > > > from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are > > > taking to help address this problem? > > > > > > ChessMess > > > HydroRacers 2 > > > http://HydroRacers.StratacticStudio.Com > > > > ___ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > > > > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
If your mod is only going to be boats, then wouldnt the lack of acctually base players being replaced with vehicles balance out the bandwidth issues slightly? On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:10:38 +0100, tei <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Has other nice guy say (botman?) you can always cheat (maybe use "fliing > vehicles" but fake a water plane, or something similar) or has Jay say, > you can optimize the sdk for your purpose > > total conversions are much more about breaktrough than to continue > clonning stuff... its normal to push the limits with TC > > > ChessMess wrote: > > I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point > > of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone > > from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are > > taking to help address this problem? > > > > ChessMess > > HydroRacers 2 > > http://HydroRacers.StratacticStudio.Com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Has other nice guy say (botman?) you can always cheat (maybe use "fliing vehicles" but fake a water plane, or something similar) or has Jay say, you can optimize the sdk for your purpose total conversions are much more about breaktrough than to continue clonning stuff... its normal to push the limits with TC ChessMess wrote: I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are taking to help address this problem? ChessMess HydroRacers 2 http://HydroRacers.StratacticStudio.Com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Almost seems that BF2 is going to be what we need rather then HL2. Don't get me wrong... I've been dying to do HL2.. but if we can only realistically expect a minor handful of vehicles to be usable at any one time without Lag issues... we'll its definetly a major consideration that has to be evaluated. I would suspect many mods are pretty much of the mindset that vehicles are a given and that any new engine should be able to handle it without issue on a mutliplayer environment, especially considering the standard set by the BF series in that regard. How many mods here have vehicles as a large component of thier design? On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:37:55 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: > > C&c renegade. Heh > > I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about vehicles, and I > > get 20 latency or so. > > > > Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but ;) > > Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. physics > engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of joints, > constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. > > UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles going > in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are > fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the > minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the > clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
> > So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no > go for the source engine? This is totally not true. The SDK does not currently have an optimized network data model for vehicles, but it's completely possible to optimize (or otherwise redefine) the network data for vehicles in a mod. The current implementation works well for single player games, but it does use a fair amount of bandwidth. It would be straightforward to move much of the data over to the client and out of the network stream. Without doing more analysis of your mod and the current bandwidth usage of vehicles it's hard to say how much you'd need to strip from the stream. I don't have a date for when we'll release an internally developed solution. Jay ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Tony "omega" Sergi wrote: C&c renegade. Heh I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about vehicles, and I get 20 latency or so. Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but ;) Yeah. I'm thinking more along the lines of Havok, Karma, etc. physics engine type vehicles which are usually more complex in terms of joints, constraints, contacts, replusors, etc. UT2004 does a pretty good job of getting multiple Karma vehicles going in a multiplayer level at once, but their physics "properties" are fairly simple. And the game has been tuned pretty well to pass the minimal amount of entity physics data over the network to keep the clients and servers relatively in sync with each other. -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
--
[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
Jay,
Are the these constants from VPHYSICS/VEHICLE.H :
#define VEHICLE_MAX_AXLE_COUNT 4
#define VEHICLE_MAX_GEAR_COUNT 6
#define VEHICLE_MAX_WHEEL_COUNT (2*VEHICLE_MAX_AXLE_COUNT)
hardcoded into the Engine DLL ?
The reason I'm asking, is the buggy behaves as if it the 4 wheels
are each on their own axles.
I've been asked about implementing tracked vehicles like tanks, which
normal have multiple independently suspended "bogie wheels". It seems
to me that one would need 8 or even 10 axles, each with a single while,
in order to do a tank properly (forget how the treads would be implemented
just yet ).
Can I we raise the Axle and Wheel counts ?
At 07:05 PM 12/14/2004, you wrote:
> >
> > So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no
> > go for the source engine?
>
>This is totally not true. The SDK does not currently have an optimized
>network data model for vehicles, but it's completely possible to
>optimize (or otherwise redefine) the network data for vehicles in a mod.
>The current implementation works well for single player games, but it
>does use a fair amount of bandwidth. It would be straightforward to
>move much of the data over to the client and out of the network stream.
>Without doing more analysis of your mod and the current bandwidth usage
>of vehicles it's hard to say how much you'd need to strip from the
>stream.
>
>I don't have a date for when we'll release an internally developed
>solution.
>
>Jay
>
>
>___
>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>please visit:
>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
{OLD}Sneaky_Bastard!
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Michael A. Hobson
icq:#2186709
yahoo: warrior_mike2001
IRC: Gamesurge channel #wavelength
--
___
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visit:
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RE: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
C&c renegade. Heh I've been in 64 player games, and the whole thing is about vehicles, and I get 20 latency or so. Course, it's a totally different engine, and a lot older now.. but ;) -Original Message- From: Jeffrey "botman" Broome [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: December 14, 2004 8:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles I don't think you could create a multiplayer MOD with 32 boats in it or 32 dune buggies and be able to run on anything but a LAN (no matter who's engine and physics tech you're using). --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.799 / Virus Database: 543 - Release Date: 19/11/2004 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
We never had our own server to fully test with... we have had to fight and scratch for every single bit we were able to do, from coding to modeling to testing etc I've seen games with as high as 28 players in them at the mod's highpoint. On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:44:19 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ChessMess wrote: > > I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point > > of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone > > from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are > > taking to help address this problem? > > Just out of curiosity, how many clients does HydroRacers support on the > BF1942 engine? > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
We'll we had some large groups in the BF1942 version of HydroRacers 1... but not in the order of 32 players. Ideally our Mod would able to handle 12 - 24 players all within vehicles depending on GameMode. On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:25:20 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ChessMess wrote: > > So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no go for > > the source engine? > > A few ground based vehicles should be fine, I would imagine. Water > based vehicles are probably less complex physics-wise than wheeled > vehicles. Flying vehicles would be the least complex. > > I don't think you could create a multiplayer MOD with 32 boats in it or > 32 dune buggies and be able to run on anything but a LAN (no matter > who's engine and physics tech you're using). > > Valve is the only one that can give you details about how much bandwidth > a particular vehicle uses (other than you measuring the network > utilization yourself). > > Remember that the more clients you have the more replication that has to > occur for each vehicle (i.e. 1 vehicle x 1 client = 1x usage, 1 vehicle > x 2 clients = 2x usage, 2 vehicles x 2 clients = 4x usage, 32 vehicles x > 32 clients = 1024x usage). This is an oversimplication, of course, but > you get the general idea. > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
ChessMess wrote: I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are taking to help address this problem? Just out of curiosity, how many clients does HydroRacers support on the BF1942 engine? -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
ChessMess wrote: So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no go for the source engine? A few ground based vehicles should be fine, I would imagine. Water based vehicles are probably less complex physics-wise than wheeled vehicles. Flying vehicles would be the least complex. I don't think you could create a multiplayer MOD with 32 boats in it or 32 dune buggies and be able to run on anything but a LAN (no matter who's engine and physics tech you're using). Valve is the only one that can give you details about how much bandwidth a particular vehicle uses (other than you measuring the network utilization yourself). Remember that the more clients you have the more replication that has to occur for each vehicle (i.e. 1 vehicle x 1 client = 1x usage, 1 vehicle x 2 clients = 2x usage, 2 vehicles x 2 clients = 4x usage, 32 vehicles x 32 clients = 1024x usage). This is an oversimplication, of course, but you get the general idea. -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
What about a Racing boat mod? On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 17:44:26 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Teddy wrote: > > > > Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot > > before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer > > > > Knowing what I know about other physics engines (not knowing all that > much about Havok), flying vehicles usually require less bandwidth to > keep the client and server in sync with each other because they have > simpler physics properties. Wheeled vehicles tend to have more contacts > with the ground and have things like complex suspension/steering which > all need to be replicated between the server and all clients. > > If you are making a futuristic MOD (like UT2004), make all of your > vehicles flying vehicles (or very low hovering vehicles). > > If you're doing a Road Rally kind of MOD, or a Demolition Derby kind of > MOD, best of luck to you. :) > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
I find this incredibly troubling considering that a main focal point of our mod is vehicular in nature (Hydroplane Racing). Can someone from Valve comment on this situation and what if any steps they are taking to help address this problem? ChessMess HydroRacers 2 http://HydroRacers.StratacticStudio.Com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
So basically what your saying is Vehicle based mods are a no go for the source engine? On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 18:40:02 -0600, Jeffrey botman Broome <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ChessMess wrote: > > What about a Racing boat mod? > > Are they flying boats? ;) > > -- > Jeffrey "botman" Broome > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > -- ChessMess Stratactic Studios http://www.StratacticStudios.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
ChessMess wrote: What about a Racing boat mod? Are they flying boats? ;) -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
Teddy wrote: Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer Knowing what I know about other physics engines (not knowing all that much about Havok), flying vehicles usually require less bandwidth to keep the client and server in sync with each other because they have simpler physics properties. Wheeled vehicles tend to have more contacts with the ground and have things like complex suspension/steering which all need to be replicated between the server and all clients. If you are making a futuristic MOD (like UT2004), make all of your vehicles flying vehicles (or very low hovering vehicles). If you're doing a Road Rally kind of MOD, or a Demolition Derby kind of MOD, best of luck to you. :) -- Jeffrey "botman" Broome ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] Netcode and Vehicles
In our preliminary tests, we found that if someone jumps in a vehicle, it adds a permanent 2-4kb/sec of incoming data to each client (from the server). Needless to say, can't have too many of these on a map, especially if you want some bandwidth for physics props. Someone's gonna hafta try to cut down the netcode of the vehicles alot before we can feasibly use them in multiplayer On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:08:51 -0500, ChessMess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've read in some postings that there is net issues regarding vehicles > and multiplayer. Is there any truth to this? Has anyone had any > experience with multiplayer vehicles in thier mod? > > -- > ChessMess > Stratactic Studios > http://www.StratacticStudios.com > > ___ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders > > ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
