Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Benjamin Denk]

Robert, i'm 100% on your side. My community is almost dead afters 6 months  
with this crappy update. Just a few hours in the evening with all the old  
hardocre regulars are left (on good days). Summer  hits so much harder  
than ever before. It's so difficult to fill the server outside from  
8-11pm. Even the 8000+ steamgroup member + events doesn't help much.


TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps  
making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the  
changes.


Absolutely. Why is there such a sudden drop? Why are player counts  
decreasing at the start of summer vacation? Why this year, and not the  
year >before or next year? Why such a large drop in the absence of any  
major FPS releases? Anyone unbiased would easily see Valve's quickplay  
change is >to blame for this.



On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Albert Davis   
wrote:
TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps  
making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the  
changes.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Robert Paulson   
wrote:
Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all  
the evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of  
every 5 >>>players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation  
starts? Please... get real.


This year
http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

Last Year
http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560




On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector  
 wrote:

And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.


Correlation does not imply causation.

Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the  
quickplay decision.


Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported  
assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical  
falicy.



On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson  
 wrote:
*Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*  
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.

Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People  
getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks  
fast >to me.
There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer  
this year when it has increased every other year before this unless  
>something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing  
community servers from quickplay.



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list  
archives, please visit:

https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,  
please visit:

https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,  
please visit:

https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds







--
Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul: http://www.opera.com/mail/___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Ross Bemrose]

"2014: I don't know where you are getting 64k, as it isn't present on the
graph. You are probably looking at steampowered stats you just loaded
today. This is a mistake to compare an instantaneous snapshot with the
graph because the graph averages player counts over a larger time frame
which gives a more accurate picture."

I was averaging the number from the 2014 graph for points near the start of
the month.  I never even looked at the steampowered stats.


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> 2011: The game not being F2P is a reason for lower counts. Player counts
> increased in early June, before it was F2P.
>
> 2012: At the beginning of June, the peak was only 4% less than the average
> of 60k. This is far from the drop this year.
>
> 2013: Even if you look at the time just before Robotic Boogaloo, the peak
> player count was only 3% less than the average. And this is before summer
> vacation. This is far from the drop this year.
>
> 2014: I don't know where you are getting 64k, as it isn't present on the
> graph. You are probably looking at steampowered stats you just loaded
> today. This is a mistake to compare an instantaneous snapshot with the
> graph because the graph averages player counts over a larger time frame
> which gives a more accurate picture.
>
> It is also not appropriate to compare player counts with last year and
> claim that everything is normal. There have been numerous updates since
> last year. Player counts did not drop as much as this year or at all when
> you compare them to previous time frames without any major updates.
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:
>
>>  You know, you see some interesting trends if you look at the graphs on
>> that SteamGraph site on a per-year basis.
>>
>> 2011:
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=129385800&to=132530760
>>
>> 2012:
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=132539400&to=135693000
>>
>> 2013:
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135701640&to=138846600
>>
>> 2014:
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138855240&to=140410080
>>
>> Lets compare right now to this time in previous years:
>>
>> 2011: late-May/early-June are useless because the game wasn't F2P until
>> halfway through the year and after the initial spike, the numbers kept
>> dropping until they went under 40,000 in November.
>>
>> 2012: June started with about 52,500 concurrent players average.  Player
>> counts rose in late June and fell in early July. August numbers got a huge
>> bump because MvM came out on August 15.
>>
>> 2013: Robotic Boogaloo and its Robo-crates boosted the concurrent
>> playerbase in late May/early June to around 66,000 concurrent players
>> average.  You can see this by looking at the graph around the middle of
>> May.  The average actually *dropped* for the first half of June
>> (Robo-crates stopped being common drops on June 3). Numbers rose in late
>> June and fell in early July, although they may have gotten a slight bump in
>> mid-late July/early August from the Weapon Rebalancing/Community Maps
>> update on July 10 (cp_process and cp_standin were added).
>>
>> 2014: We're starting June with an average of 64,000 concurrent players.
>> Yes, we're only 2,000 current players below last year despite not having an
>> event going on other than the hype train.
>>
>> You can also see in 2012 and 2013 that the minimum (weekday?) number of
>> players tends to rise throughout June, but the maximum (weekend?) number of
>> players tends to not rise until the end of June, plus both numbers fall in
>> July.
>>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>


-- 
Ross Bemrose
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

2011: The game not being F2P is a reason for lower counts. Player counts
increased in early June, before it was F2P.

2012: At the beginning of June, the peak was only 4% less than the average
of 60k. This is far from the drop this year.

2013: Even if you look at the time just before Robotic Boogaloo, the peak
player count was only 3% less than the average. And this is before summer
vacation. This is far from the drop this year.

2014: I don't know where you are getting 64k, as it isn't present on the
graph. You are probably looking at steampowered stats you just loaded
today. This is a mistake to compare an instantaneous snapshot with the
graph because the graph averages player counts over a larger time frame
which gives a more accurate picture.

It is also not appropriate to compare player counts with last year and
claim that everything is normal. There have been numerous updates since
last year. Player counts did not drop as much as this year or at all when
you compare them to previous time frames without any major updates.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:

>  You know, you see some interesting trends if you look at the graphs on
> that SteamGraph site on a per-year basis.
>
> 2011:
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=129385800&to=132530760
>
> 2012:
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=132539400&to=135693000
>
> 2013:
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135701640&to=138846600
>
> 2014:
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138855240&to=140410080
>
> Lets compare right now to this time in previous years:
>
> 2011: late-May/early-June are useless because the game wasn't F2P until
> halfway through the year and after the initial spike, the numbers kept
> dropping until they went under 40,000 in November.
>
> 2012: June started with about 52,500 concurrent players average.  Player
> counts rose in late June and fell in early July. August numbers got a huge
> bump because MvM came out on August 15.
>
> 2013: Robotic Boogaloo and its Robo-crates boosted the concurrent
> playerbase in late May/early June to around 66,000 concurrent players
> average.  You can see this by looking at the graph around the middle of
> May.  The average actually *dropped* for the first half of June
> (Robo-crates stopped being common drops on June 3). Numbers rose in late
> June and fell in early July, although they may have gotten a slight bump in
> mid-late July/early August from the Weapon Rebalancing/Community Maps
> update on July 10 (cp_process and cp_standin were added).
>
> 2014: We're starting June with an average of 64,000 concurrent players.
> Yes, we're only 2,000 current players below last year despite not having an
> event going on other than the hype train.
>
> You can also see in 2012 and 2013 that the minimum (weekday?) number of
> players tends to rise throughout June, but the maximum (weekend?) number of
> players tends to not rise until the end of June, plus both numbers fall in
> July.
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

I am glad that at least someone here is smart enough to read the graphs
correctly.

You cannot just zoom all the way out. TF2 has grown overall because it went
free to play and Valve has put in a lot of updates to make up for player
loss. If you haven't noticed yet, updates have slowed to a crawl. I chose
to zoom in since January because there have been no major updates or
holidays.

TF2 is also not that similar to CS:GO. TF2 is free. CS:GO came out all the
way back in 2012 and barely affected TF2 players counts. If anyone
preferred CS:GO instead, they would've switched a long time ago.

> Whining from byteframe about community servers

Rich comments coming from a mic spammer who has been banned from just about
every major community. Enjoying how easy it is to mic spam on official ones?





On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:27 PM, Justin Kim  wrote:

> To address the general trend upwards over the last two years, I just want
> to point out that while TF2 as a game has become more popular, there’s a
> notable downward trend in a spot in the year where the player count should
> be increasing. (You can look at previous years and confirm this.)
>
> On Jun 5, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Derek Howard 
> wrote:
>
> oh my god I'm just trying to have a nice quiet sex-filled evening with my
> boyfriend and you jackasses keep making my damn phone go off. I keep
> thinking it's something important.
>
> go yell about this where you're not disturbing countless others, please.
> like on spuf or whatever shit they've replaced that with now
>
> Also when you link to whatever the hell that graph is, you should probably
> adjust it so that it actually illustrates your point. All I can think of is
> that scene from Futurama where Hermes says "As this shocking graph
> indicates... " Except it's worse. Also,
> make the graph display the last two years and there's actually a trend
> upwards?
>
> Also, this is not the place to discuss religious belief. Why the hell
> would you open that can of worms here and intentionally piss off the people
> on this list who may be religious? I'm all for tearing down religious
> institutions, but the fucking HLDS mailing list is not the place to do it.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> This is about as inane as a creationist saying: "Prove it, prove
>> evolution is real. You don't have any "real" evidence. You weren't there a
>> million years ago."
>>
>> The evidence I have provided is as solid as anyone outside of Valve is
>> going to get. But of course you knew this and you are less interested in
>> the truth than winning an argument.
>>
>> A more astute analogy than your school shooting analogy, would be if you
>> refused to believe in global warming despite CO2 emissions being the most
>> obvious and plausible explanation. You would just keep repeating the old
>> tired cliche about "correlation doesn't imply causation".
>>
>> > But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me to stand up
>> and say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not evidence. That is
>> personal observation of a limited sample size.
>>
>> That's because global players counts are available. If they were not
>> available I bet you would be arguing about that instead.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played
>>> on community servers
>>>
>>> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay
>>> change and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is
>>> what I am after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is
>>> the reason why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up..
>>> Shootings go up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are
>>> doing with the quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down.
>>> Valve stopped sending new players to community servers around the same
>>> time.. That must be the reason.
>>>
>>>
>>> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have
>>> no idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized
>>> Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
>>>
>>> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the
>>> community servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were.
>>> I'm not seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new
>>> people in to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't
>>> enough for me to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because
>>> that's not evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.
>>>
>>>
>>> >Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most
>>> obvious.
>>>
>>> Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do
>>> better, this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should
>>> just agree that

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[byteframe]

Valve does they have to in an effort to increase player value and fun.
Community servers are no fun, sub-standard, quirky, laggy, glitch-prone, or
are otherwise differentiated by one or more of these kinds of negative
characteristics. Whilst official server's (valve+pinion) and their
administrators produce dooky that smells of sparkling ice-water, community
servers are trashy and suspect. The primary driver of these deficiencies
are the immaturity, inexperience, ignorance, and poor disposition of the
vast majority of community server admins. Oftentimes, their use of foul
language, their upbringing, their general slovenliness, and inability to
grasp _many_ of the simple technical facets of server administration are
factors in their lack of success finding and sustaining a decent player
base. In response, the decision was made (apparently) to insert ads into
the player motd, a barely workable, but dubious method of support that was
needed by organizations with _way_ more servers then they could ever hope
to fill (short of just paying people to play on them). The furor and
hullabaloo surrounding client motds is the sole responsibility of wayward,
opportunistic community admins with little sense of honor, dignity, or
respect for their players. Furthermore, many resorted to fake player
plugins with ever increasingly complicated methods of feigning legitimate
player activity convincing the random joiner that, yes, the owner doesn't
really need to get a day job, he/she is doing just fine providing a
highly-valuable service to the members of a constantly-ballooning video
gaming community that will _clearly_ last forever. Honestly, if you we're
in Valve's loafers, wouldn't you have done the same thing: change one
_default_ checkbox in the qp dialog? In response to their action,
apparently the only thing that could be done was to spam a mailing list for
the better part of a year with inane drek (replete with emotion) about how
Valve has just made their existence meaningless. Resorting to this campaign
of whining clearly shows the lack of innovation and willingness to reinvent
as the primary reason why your servers are bare. So much fretting over the
lose of the random chance that your super-cool server might be selected to
entertain a random pleb who runs quick-play. Instead of being pissed that
new players (only by default, and when changed, this cvar is stored in the
user's cloud) will not be set to join your server when they quickplay,
maybe you should be thinking of more creative ways to win the allegiance of
the decreasing tf2 player base. Rather than offer
24/7Maps+SourceMod_Drengus+Lag, perchance, you could, I dunno, write server
plugins that automatically give away free items from the steam economy that
is totally tits and everybody loves? Hell, that would be require the
players to join your shitty steam group as well, furthering fostering
loyalty.

Firstly, shave and take a shower; y'all smell foul. Then, starting thinking
creatively, fools. TF2 is a chorizo party that is thinning out. Consider
this burst of sass to come from the inner subconscious thoughts of many a
Valve employee and stop making such a fuss about valve making the RIGHT
call. Hail GabeN: sex monster.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 9:07 PM, Phillip Vector 
wrote:

> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
> community servers
>
> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay change
> and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is what I am
> after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is the reason
> why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up.. Shootings go
> up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are doing with the
> quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down. Valve stopped
> sending new players to community servers around the same time.. That must
> be the reason.
>
>
> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have
> no idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized
> Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
>
> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the
> community servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were.
> I'm not seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new
> people in to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't
> enough for me to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because
> that's not evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.
>
>
> >Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most
> obvious.
>
> Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do
> better, this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should
> just agree that NEITHER of us know for SURE what is the cause, though we
> have our guesses (You, Quickplay. Me, Crappy Community servers).
>
>
> 

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Weasels Lair]

IMH(f)O, If you are going to compare TF2 stats to another Valve title,
CS:GO is probably a better indication of what may be going-on.  I do not
thing DOTA is a good comparison - as it (as mentioned by others here) is
really drawing a different crowd.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&appid=440q10q240q730&from=0

According to those charts, TF2 is still hanging-in there as fars as number
of players in concerned.  CS:GO has maybe stolen/distracted some players
from TF2 and CS variants.  TF2 seems to still be holding it's own.

No doubt, many old timers have left for good.  As much as I may not LIKE
it, Valves "strategery" may be working to keep new-gamers happy - at least
long enough to be replaced by other newer players.  Not sure how long that
cycle can be kept going though.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Alexander Corn]

@Derek Howard

Please keep your personal life off of the mailing list. It's incredibly
childish and hypocritical to do so when chastising others for "making your
phone go off". I expect more from a developer.

I see that you're using Gmail; I suggest that you set up a filter to make
mailing list messages skip the inbox and go straight to a label
(effectively routing them into a "folder"). That way, they won't clutter
your inbox and won't cause notifications.

@All

Back on topic, I do agree that with no details, blaming Quickplay solely
for the lower player count is a bit foolish. Looking at the big picture,
the difference isn't quite as dramatic as one would think:
http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=132539400&to=End+Time

That being said, the Quickplay changes are severely detrimental. New
players are primarily directed to the Quickplay button since it's the most
prominent and is labeled "Play Multiplayer". The settings button is rather
obscure and the difference between official and community servers isn't
made clear.

In the long run, this is not sustainable. Players will end up playing on
nothing but Valve servers, which have poor performance and no sense of
community. Part of what makes client-server oriented games so great is the
sense of community that evolves on a server. Without that, TF2 is basically
just another shooter that players get tired of and move on.

Not to mention the fact that server operators kept TF2 running basically up
until the Uber update. Community servers are and always have been where
players could find a customized experience that made TF2 just that much
better.


Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Derek Howard 
wrote:

> oh my god I'm just trying to have a nice quiet sex-filled evening with my
> boyfriend and you jackasses keep making my damn phone go off. I keep
> thinking it's something important.
>
> go yell about this where you're not disturbing countless others, please.
> like on spuf or whatever shit they've replaced that with now
>
> Also when you link to whatever the hell that graph is, you should probably
> adjust it so that it actually illustrates your point. All I can think of is
> that scene from Futurama where Hermes says "As this shocking graph
> indicates... " Except it's worse. Also,
> make the graph display the last two years and there's actually a trend
> upwards?
>
> Also, this is not the place to discuss religious belief. Why the hell
> would you open that can of worms here and intentionally piss off the people
> on this list who may be religious? I'm all for tearing down religious
> institutions, but the fucking HLDS mailing list is not the place to do it.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> This is about as inane as a creationist saying: "Prove it, prove
>> evolution is real. You don't have any "real" evidence. You weren't there a
>> million years ago."
>>
>> The evidence I have provided is as solid as anyone outside of Valve is
>> going to get. But of course you knew this and you are less interested in
>> the truth than winning an argument.
>>
>> A more astute analogy than your school shooting analogy, would be if you
>> refused to believe in global warming despite CO2 emissions being the most
>> obvious and plausible explanation. You would just keep repeating the old
>> tired cliche about "correlation doesn't imply causation".
>>
>> > But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me to stand up
>> and say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not evidence. That is
>> personal observation of a limited sample size.
>>
>> That's because global players counts are available. If they were not
>> available I bet you would be arguing about that instead.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played
>>> on community servers
>>>
>>> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay
>>> change and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is
>>> what I am after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is
>>> the reason why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up..
>>> Shootings go up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are
>>> doing with the quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down.
>>> Valve stopped sending new players to community servers around the same
>>> time.. That must be the reason.
>>>
>>>
>>> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have
>>> no idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized
>>> Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
>>>
>>> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the
>>> community servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were.
>>> I'm not seeing a loss of players (exce

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Justin Kim]

To address the general trend upwards over the last two years, I just want to 
point out that while TF2 as a game has become more popular, there’s a notable 
downward trend in a spot in the year where the player count should be 
increasing. (You can look at previous years and confirm this.)

On Jun 5, 2014, at 10:20 PM, Derek Howard  wrote:

> oh my god I'm just trying to have a nice quiet sex-filled evening with my 
> boyfriend and you jackasses keep making my damn phone go off. I keep thinking 
> it's something important.
> 
> go yell about this where you're not disturbing countless others, please. like 
> on spuf or whatever shit they've replaced that with now
> 
> Also when you link to whatever the hell that graph is, you should probably 
> adjust it so that it actually illustrates your point. All I can think of is 
> that scene from Futurama where Hermes says "As this shocking graph 
> indicates..." Except it's worse. Also, make the graph display the last two 
> years and there's actually a trend upwards?
> 
> Also, this is not the place to discuss religious belief. Why the hell would 
> you open that can of worms here and intentionally piss off the people on this 
> list who may be religious? I'm all for tearing down religious institutions, 
> but the fucking HLDS mailing list is not the place to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> This is about as inane as a creationist saying: "Prove it, prove evolution is 
> real. You don't have any "real" evidence. You weren't there a million years 
> ago." 
> 
> The evidence I have provided is as solid as anyone outside of Valve is going 
> to get. But of course you knew this and you are less interested in the truth 
> than winning an argument.
> 
> A more astute analogy than your school shooting analogy, would be if you 
> refused to believe in global warming despite CO2 emissions being the most 
> obvious and plausible explanation. You would just keep repeating the old 
> tired cliche about "correlation doesn't imply causation".
> 
> > But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me to stand up and 
> > say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not evidence. That is 
> > personal observation of a limited sample size.
> 
> That's because global players counts are available. If they were not 
> available I bet you would be arguing about that instead.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Phillip Vector  
> wrote:
> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on 
> >community servers
> 
> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay change 
> and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is what I am 
> after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is the reason 
> why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up.. Shootings go 
> up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are doing with the 
> quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down. Valve stopped 
> sending new players to community servers around the same time.. That must be 
> the reason.
> 
> 
> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have no 
> >idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized Valve 
> >is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
> 
> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the community 
> servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were. I'm not 
> seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new people in 
> to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me 
> to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not 
> evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.
> 
> 
> >Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most 
> >obvious.
> 
> Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do better, 
> this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should just agree 
> that NEITHER of us know for SURE what is the cause, though we have our 
> guesses (You, Quickplay. Me, Crappy Community servers).
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on 
> community servers. You appear to be someone who only plays on official 
> servers so you have no idea how many people have just stopped playing because 
> they realized Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand 
> official ones. Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest 
> and most obvious.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Phillip Vector  
> wrote:
> >"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.
> 
> Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".
> 
> We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So stop 
> trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:3

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Michael Connor]

Hey guys the graph looks fine with more time involved

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=125703360&to=140200920

I don't think you need worry. Unless you're not making money any more. Then
worry.


On 6 June 2014 03:22, Robert Paulson  wrote:

> > TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
> making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
> changes.
>
> Absolutely. Why is there such a sudden drop? Why are player counts
> decreasing at the start of summer vacation? Why this year, and not the year
> before or next year? Why such a large drop in the absence of any major FPS
> releases? Anyone unbiased would easily see Valve's quickplay change is to
> blame for this.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Albert Davis 
> wrote:
>
>> TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
>> making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
>> changes.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
>>> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
>>> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
>>> get real.
>>>
>>> This year
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>>
>>> Last Year
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.

 Correlation does not imply causation.

 Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
 quickplay decision.

 Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
 assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
 falicy.


 On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
 wrote:

> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>
> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
> me.
>
> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
> this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
> something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
> servers from quickplay.
>
>

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds


>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

> TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
changes.

Absolutely. Why is there such a sudden drop? Why are player counts
decreasing at the start of summer vacation? Why this year, and not the year
before or next year? Why such a large drop in the absence of any major FPS
releases? Anyone unbiased would easily see Valve's quickplay change is to
blame for this.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Albert Davis  wrote:

> TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
> making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
> changes.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
>> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
>> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
>> get real.
>>
>> This year
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> Last Year
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>>>
>>> Correlation does not imply causation.
>>>
>>> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
>>> quickplay decision.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
>>> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
>>> falicy.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
 http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
 Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.

 Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
 getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
 me.

 There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
 this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
 something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
 servers from quickplay.


>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Derek Howard]

oh my god I'm just trying to have a nice quiet sex-filled evening with my
boyfriend and you jackasses keep making my damn phone go off. I keep
thinking it's something important.

go yell about this where you're not disturbing countless others, please.
like on spuf or whatever shit they've replaced that with now

Also when you link to whatever the hell that graph is, you should probably
adjust it so that it actually illustrates your point. All I can think of is
that scene from Futurama where Hermes says "As this shocking graph
indicates... " Except it's worse. Also,
make the graph display the last two years and there's actually a trend
upwards?

Also, this is not the place to discuss religious belief. Why the hell would
you open that can of worms here and intentionally piss off the people on
this list who may be religious? I'm all for tearing down religious
institutions, but the fucking HLDS mailing list is not the place to do it.




On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> This is about as inane as a creationist saying: "Prove it, prove evolution
> is real. You don't have any "real" evidence. You weren't there a million
> years ago."
>
> The evidence I have provided is as solid as anyone outside of Valve is
> going to get. But of course you knew this and you are less interested in
> the truth than winning an argument.
>
> A more astute analogy than your school shooting analogy, would be if you
> refused to believe in global warming despite CO2 emissions being the most
> obvious and plausible explanation. You would just keep repeating the old
> tired cliche about "correlation doesn't imply causation".
>
> > But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me to stand up
> and say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not evidence. That is
> personal observation of a limited sample size.
>
> That's because global players counts are available. If they were not
> available I bet you would be arguing about that instead.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Phillip Vector 
> wrote:
>
>> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
>> community servers
>>
>> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay
>> change and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is
>> what I am after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is
>> the reason why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up..
>> Shootings go up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are
>> doing with the quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down.
>> Valve stopped sending new players to community servers around the same
>> time.. That must be the reason.
>>
>>
>> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have
>> no idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized
>> Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
>>
>> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the
>> community servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were.
>> I'm not seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new
>> people in to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't
>> enough for me to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because
>> that's not evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.
>>
>>
>> >Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most
>> obvious.
>>
>> Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do
>> better, this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should
>> just agree that NEITHER of us know for SURE what is the cause, though we
>> have our guesses (You, Quickplay. Me, Crappy Community servers).
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
>>> community servers. You appear to be someone who only plays on official
>>> servers so you have no idea how many people have just stopped playing
>>> because they realized Valve is draining all the new players and they can't
>>> stand official ones. Until you have a better explanation this one is the
>>> simplest and most obvious.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Phillip Vector 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 >"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.

 Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".

 We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So
 stop trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.


 On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
 wrote:

> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all
> the evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of 
> every
> 5 players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts?
> Please... get real.
>
> This year
>
>

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

This is about as inane as a creationist saying: "Prove it, prove evolution
is real. You don't have any "real" evidence. You weren't there a million
years ago."

The evidence I have provided is as solid as anyone outside of Valve is
going to get. But of course you knew this and you are less interested in
the truth than winning an argument.

A more astute analogy than your school shooting analogy, would be if you
refused to believe in global warming despite CO2 emissions being the most
obvious and plausible explanation. You would just keep repeating the old
tired cliche about "correlation doesn't imply causation".

> But even with my findings, that still isn't enough for me to stand up and
say, "There is no loss of players" because that's not evidence. That is
personal observation of a limited sample size.

That's because global players counts are available. If they were not
available I bet you would be arguing about that instead.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Phillip Vector 
wrote:

> >It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
> community servers
>
> Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay change
> and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is what I am
> after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is the reason
> why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up.. Shootings go
> up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are doing with the
> quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down. Valve stopped
> sending new players to community servers around the same time.. That must
> be the reason.
>
>
> >You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have
> no idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized
> Valve is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.
>
> and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the
> community servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were.
> I'm not seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new
> people in to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't
> enough for me to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because
> that's not evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.
>
>
> >Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most
> obvious.
>
> Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do
> better, this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should
> just agree that NEITHER of us know for SURE what is the cause, though we
> have our guesses (You, Quickplay. Me, Crappy Community servers).
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
>> community servers. You appear to be someone who only plays on official
>> servers so you have no idea how many people have just stopped playing
>> because they realized Valve is draining all the new players and they can't
>> stand official ones. Until you have a better explanation this one is the
>> simplest and most obvious.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.
>>>
>>> Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".
>>>
>>> We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So
>>> stop trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all
 the evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every
 5 players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts?
 Please... get real.

 This year

 http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

 Last Year

 http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560




 On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
 wrote:

> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>
> Correlation does not imply causation.
>
> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
> quickplay decision.
>
> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
> falicy.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
>> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
>> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>>
>> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
>> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
>> me.
>>

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Phillip Vector]

I remember SOMEONE got it.. I never placed your name as that person however.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Ook  wrote:

> Most of you are probably too young to remember, but I happen to be the
> official holder of the Thwack! stick. Don't make me get it out
>
>
> (seriously - has anyone here been around long enough to remember when it
> was passed to me?)
>
>
>
> On 06/05/2014 06:13 PM, Albert Davis wrote:
>
>> TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
>> making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
>> changes.
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Ook]

Most of you are probably too young to remember, but I happen to be the 
official holder of the Thwack! stick. Don't make me get it out



(seriously - has anyone here been around long enough to remember when it 
was passed to me?)



On 06/05/2014 06:13 PM, Albert Davis wrote:
TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps 
making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the 
changes.





___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Albert Davis]

TF got old is a lame excuse, it's a lot of these changes Valve keeps
making. I have had people in my clan quit playing because of all the
changes.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
> get real.
>
> This year
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> Last Year
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
> wrote:
>
>> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>>
>> Correlation does not imply causation.
>>
>> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
>> quickplay decision.
>>
>> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
>> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
>> falicy.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
>>> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
>>> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>>>
>>> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
>>> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
>>> this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
>>> something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
>>> servers from quickplay.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Phillip Vector]

>It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
community servers

Prove it. Prove to me that this is a direct result of the quickplay change
and nothing else. Not what you assume, but what you can prove is what I am
after. For example, I can say that the amount of cars driven is the reason
why there are more school shootings. Number of cars goes up.. Shootings go
up.. So it must be the case. This is exactly what you are doing with the
quickplay argument you are presenting. Numbers went down. Valve stopped
sending new players to community servers around the same time.. That must
be the reason.

>You appear to be someone who only plays on official servers so you have no
idea how many people have just stopped playing because they realized Valve
is draining all the new players and they can't stand official ones.

and you don't have any idea as well. Personal comments aside, the community
servers I hang around are going strong today as they ever were. I'm not
seeing a loss of players (except some here or there, but we get new people
in to replace those). But even with my findings, that still isn't enough
for me to stand up and say, "There is no loss of players" because that's
not evidence. That is personal observation of a limited sample size.

>Until you have a better explanation this one is the simplest and most
obvious.

Sorry. You don't get to put your guess up and say, "Unless you can do
better, this is what is the truth". Facts don't work like that. We should
just agree that NEITHER of us know for SURE what is the cause, though we
have our guesses (You, Quickplay. Me, Crappy Community servers).


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
> community servers. You appear to be someone who only plays on official
> servers so you have no idea how many people have just stopped playing
> because they realized Valve is draining all the new players and they can't
> stand official ones. Until you have a better explanation this one is the
> simplest and most obvious.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Phillip Vector 
> wrote:
>
>> >"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.
>>
>> Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".
>>
>> We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So
>> stop trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
>>> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
>>> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
>>> get real.
>>>
>>> This year
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>>
>>> Last Year
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.

 Correlation does not imply causation.

 Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
 quickplay decision.

 Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
 assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
 falicy.


 On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
 wrote:

> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>
> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
> me.
>
> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
> this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
> something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
> servers from quickplay.
>
>

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds


>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hld

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

It is a perfectly valid explanation to anyone who has actually played on
community servers. You appear to be someone who only plays on official
servers so you have no idea how many people have just stopped playing
because they realized Valve is draining all the new players and they can't
stand official ones. Until you have a better explanation this one is the
simplest and most obvious.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Phillip Vector 
wrote:

> >"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.
>
> Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".
>
> We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So
> stop trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
>> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
>> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
>> get real.
>>
>> This year
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> Last Year
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>>>
>>> Correlation does not imply causation.
>>>
>>> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
>>> quickplay decision.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
>>> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
>>> falicy.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
 http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
 Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.

 Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
 getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
 me.

 There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
 this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
 something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
 servers from quickplay.


>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Phillip Vector]

>"TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation.

Neither is "Quickplay must be causing it".

We don't know. That's the pure truth of it. We can't know for sure. So stop
trying to make it fit one of your pet theories.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
> evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
> players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
> get real.
>
> This year
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> Last Year
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
> wrote:
>
>> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>>
>> Correlation does not imply causation.
>>
>> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the
>> quickplay decision.
>>
>> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
>> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
>> falicy.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
>>> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
>>> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>>>
>>> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
>>> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
>>> me.
>>>
>>> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer
>>> this year when it has increased every other year before this unless
>>> something is really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community
>>> servers from quickplay.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

Repeating the same overused quip is not a valid excuse to ignore all the
evidence. "TF2 just got old" is not a valid explanation. 1 out of every 5
players just decides to stop playing when summer vacation starts? Please...
get real.

This year
http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

Last Year
http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560




On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Phillip Vector 
wrote:

> >And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.
>
> Correlation does not imply causation.
>
> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the quickplay
> decision.
>
> Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
> assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
> falicy.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
>> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
>> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>>
>> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
>> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
>> me.
>>
>> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer this
>> year when it has increased every other year before this unless something is
>> really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community servers from
>> quickplay.
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[AJ Palkovic]

Yea!  You tell em Robert!  You go dawg.  Your logic is undeniable.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>
> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
> me.
>
> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer this
> year when it has increased every other year before this unless something is
> really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community servers from
> quickplay.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Rudy Bleeker  wrote:
>
>> Team Fortress 2 is now almost 7 years old. That means it's player base
>> has also aged. Those who played it often in high school/college when
>> they had plenty of spare time might have graduated, gotten jobs and
>> something called a "life" and simply gotten too busy to play TF2 on a
>> regular basis. This, together with the release of new FPS games like
>> Interstellar Marines, and plenty of MOBA games to virtually kill
>> others in a competitive or casual manner (including Valve's very own
>> Dota 2), might account for the slow but steady decline of concurrent
>> TF2 players. It's still having it's occasional ups, but I think we'll
>> see a downward trend on the whole.
>>
>> This is just a hypothesis of course, but I'm speaking from the
>> experience of myself and my friends, who used to play TF2 a lot but
>> don't anymore, as much fun as it used to be. When we have time to play
>> a game in the evenings it's usually Dota 2 nowadays.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>> > Are you fking serious? The kind of players that play FPS like TF2 have
>> very
>> > little overlap with mmos. If you have actually watched player counts
>> like I
>> > do, you would know this. The release of Mists of Pandaria and Guild
>> Wars 2
>> > pretty much had 0 impact on the TF2 player count.
>> >
>> > The TF2 collapse has been happening since February and Wildstar just
>> > released 2 days ago...
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Lyrai  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> There's Wildstar, which just came out, and is an MMO. Final Fantasy 14
>> is
>> >> apparently doing very well, and just had a minor content patch. Both of
>> >> those are things I'd blame for loss of player count, before this
>> Chicken
>> >> Little screaming.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ___
>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> >> please visit:
>> >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> > please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
>>   - Floyd Dell
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Phillip Vector]

>And that thing is Valve removing community servers from quickplay.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the quickplay
decision.

Yeah, I know I said it before. You stop repeating that unsupported
assumption, I'll stop reminding you that you are committing a logical
falicy.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> *Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
> http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
> Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.
>
> Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
> getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
> me.
>
> There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer this
> year when it has increased every other year before this unless something is
> really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community servers from
> quickplay.
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

*Goes to search for Interstellar Marines*
http://store.steampowered.com/stats/
Not even in the list with the last game having 1000 players.

Most people that prefer FPS can't stand MOBAs such as myself. People
getting bored of a game means a slow decline, this decline looks fast to
me.

There is absolutely no reason for player counts to drop after summer this
year when it has increased every other year before this unless something is
really wrong. And that thing is Valve removing community servers from
quickplay.



On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:48 PM, Rudy Bleeker  wrote:

> Team Fortress 2 is now almost 7 years old. That means it's player base
> has also aged. Those who played it often in high school/college when
> they had plenty of spare time might have graduated, gotten jobs and
> something called a "life" and simply gotten too busy to play TF2 on a
> regular basis. This, together with the release of new FPS games like
> Interstellar Marines, and plenty of MOBA games to virtually kill
> others in a competitive or casual manner (including Valve's very own
> Dota 2), might account for the slow but steady decline of concurrent
> TF2 players. It's still having it's occasional ups, but I think we'll
> see a downward trend on the whole.
>
> This is just a hypothesis of course, but I'm speaking from the
> experience of myself and my friends, who used to play TF2 a lot but
> don't anymore, as much fun as it used to be. When we have time to play
> a game in the evenings it's usually Dota 2 nowadays.
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
> > Are you fking serious? The kind of players that play FPS like TF2 have
> very
> > little overlap with mmos. If you have actually watched player counts
> like I
> > do, you would know this. The release of Mists of Pandaria and Guild Wars
> 2
> > pretty much had 0 impact on the TF2 player count.
> >
> > The TF2 collapse has been happening since February and Wildstar just
> > released 2 days ago...
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Lyrai  wrote:
> >>
> >> There's Wildstar, which just came out, and is an MMO. Final Fantasy 14
> is
> >> apparently doing very well, and just had a minor content patch. Both of
> >> those are things I'd blame for loss of player count, before this Chicken
> >> Little screaming.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> >> please visit:
> >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
>   - Floyd Dell
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[ngongamedesign]

Everyone just stop it! You're tearing this family apart!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 5, 2014, at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> 
> There is no other reasonable explanation for the TF2 players counts dropping 
> so much now especially at the start of summer vacation. There is no new Call 
> of Duty or Battlefield game.
> 
> Let's see what last year looked like.
> 
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560
> 
> Compared to this year.
> 
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
> 
> The number of excuses you all have left is shrinking.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Phillip Vector  
>> wrote:
>> Correlation does not imply causation.
>> 
>> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the quickplay 
>> decision.
>> 
>> >I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this.
>> 
>> Neither do I. Can you please stop because it's not necessarily a relevant 
>> fact.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Paulson  
>>> wrote:
>>> Regardless of the reason Valve has for essentially removing community 
>>> servers from quickplay, this change has done more harm than good.
>>> 
>>> I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this. How many more 
>>> players does TF2 need to lose before someone at Valve wakes up? It is 
>>> already summer time and player counts are lower than ever.
>>> 
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>> 
>>> The longer this policy remains the more permanent damage you are doing to 
>>> communities people have spent years building up.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Alexander Corn  
 wrote:
 Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's 
 minor to you may not be minor to others.
 
 Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's 
 backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without 
 JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details. 
 Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because 
 having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.
 
 I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than have 
 to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said, the 
 HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.
 
 Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay connections. 
 I really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's already 
 been crippled considerably.
 
 
 Dr. McKay
 www.doctormckay.com
 
 
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal 
> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio, 
> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it 
> would be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and 
> said "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those 
> elements from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. 
> I honestly believe as long as operators have the ability to run those 
> kinds of ads it will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that 
> they ruin it for the rest of us.
> 
> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach 
> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) 
> way to treat all server operators. 
> 
> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay 
> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start 
> with "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players 
> to opt out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level 
> playing field for all servers.
> 
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system 
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed 
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn  
> wrote:
>> >  ​Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads 
>> > (and I wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling 
>> > flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser 
>> > (which would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>> 
>> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on 
>> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio 
>> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their 
>> custom features. Removing those features is still removing features that 
>> 

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Rudy Bleeker]

Team Fortress 2 is now almost 7 years old. That means it's player base
has also aged. Those who played it often in high school/college when
they had plenty of spare time might have graduated, gotten jobs and
something called a "life" and simply gotten too busy to play TF2 on a
regular basis. This, together with the release of new FPS games like
Interstellar Marines, and plenty of MOBA games to virtually kill
others in a competitive or casual manner (including Valve's very own
Dota 2), might account for the slow but steady decline of concurrent
TF2 players. It's still having it's occasional ups, but I think we'll
see a downward trend on the whole.

This is just a hypothesis of course, but I'm speaking from the
experience of myself and my friends, who used to play TF2 a lot but
don't anymore, as much fun as it used to be. When we have time to play
a game in the evenings it's usually Dota 2 nowadays.

On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Robert Paulson  wrote:
> Are you fking serious? The kind of players that play FPS like TF2 have very
> little overlap with mmos. If you have actually watched player counts like I
> do, you would know this. The release of Mists of Pandaria and Guild Wars 2
> pretty much had 0 impact on the TF2 player count.
>
> The TF2 collapse has been happening since February and Wildstar just
> released 2 days ago...
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Lyrai  wrote:
>>
>> There's Wildstar, which just came out, and is an MMO. Final Fantasy 14 is
>> apparently doing very well, and just had a minor content patch. Both of
>> those are things I'd blame for loss of player count, before this Chicken
>> Little screaming.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>



-- 
Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
  - Floyd Dell

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

Are you fking serious? The kind of players that play FPS like TF2 have very
little overlap with mmos. If you have actually watched player counts like I
do, you would know this. The release of Mists of Pandaria and Guild Wars 2
pretty much had 0 impact on the TF2 player count.

The TF2 collapse has been happening since February and Wildstar just
released 2 days ago...


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Lyrai  wrote:

> There's Wildstar, which just came out, and is an MMO. Final Fantasy 14 is
> apparently doing very well, and just had a minor content patch. Both of
> those are things I'd blame for loss of player count, before this Chicken
> Little screaming.
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Lyrai]

There's Wildstar, which just came out, and is an MMO. Final Fantasy 14 is
apparently doing very well, and just had a minor content patch. Both of
those are things I'd blame for loss of player count, before this Chicken
Little screaming.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

There is no other reasonable explanation for the TF2 players counts
dropping so much now especially at the start of summer vacation. There is
no new Call of Duty or Battlefield game.

Let's see what last year looked like.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=135702720&to=137041560

Compared to this year.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

The number of excuses you all have left is shrinking.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Phillip Vector 
wrote:

> Correlation does not imply causation.
>
> Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the quickplay
> decision.
>
> >I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this.
>
> Neither do I. Can you please stop because it's not necessarily a relevant
> fact.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Regardless of the reason Valve has for essentially removing community
>> servers from quickplay, this change has done more harm than good.
>>
>> I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this. How many more
>> players does TF2 need to lose before someone at Valve wakes up? It is
>> already summer time and player counts are lower than ever.
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> The longer this policy remains the more permanent damage you are doing to
>> communities people have spent years building up.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Alexander Corn 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's
>>> minor to you may not be minor to others.
>>>
>>> Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's
>>> backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without
>>> JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details.
>>> Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because
>>> having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.
>>>
>>> I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than
>>> have to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said,
>>> the HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.
>>>
>>> Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay
>>> connections. I really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's
>>> already been crippled considerably.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. McKay
>>> www.doctormckay.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>>
 I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
 solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
 etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
 be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
 "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
 from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
 believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
 will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
 rest of us.

 I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted
 approach to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly,
 unethical) way to treat all server operators.

 I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
 options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
 "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
 out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
 for all servers.

 On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring"
 system (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to
 weed out all the bad apples in the first place.


 On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
 wrote:

> >
> ​
> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and
> I wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>
> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely
> on the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>
> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyo

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Mike O'Laughlen]

Critical mass of hyperbole reached.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:26 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Regardless of the reason Valve has for essentially removing community
> servers from quickplay, this change has done more harm than good.
>
> I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this. How many more
> players does TF2 need to lose before someone at Valve wakes up? It is
> already summer time and player counts are lower than ever.
>
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> The longer this policy remains the more permanent damage you are doing to
> communities people have spent years building up.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
>> Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's
>> minor to you may not be minor to others.
>>
>> Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's
>> backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without
>> JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details.
>> Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because
>> having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.
>>
>> I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than have
>> to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said, the
>> HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.
>>
>> Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay connections.
>> I really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's already been
>> crippled considerably.
>>
>>
>> Dr. McKay
>> www.doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
>>> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
>>> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
>>> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
>>> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
>>> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
>>> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
>>> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
>>> rest of us.
>>>
>>> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted
>>> approach to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly,
>>> unethical) way to treat all server operators.
>>>
>>> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
>>> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
>>> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
>>> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
>>> for all servers.
>>>
>>> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring"
>>> system (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to
>>> weed out all the bad apples in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 >
 ​
 Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and
 I wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
 flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
 would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).

 This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely
 on the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
 streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
 features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
 existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.

 Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
 everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
 school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
 run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
 we're being treated now.

 I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
 how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
 directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
 Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
 agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
 actually join a game.

 Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says
 something like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on
 gamemode" and one that points to the servers button and says something
 like, "Click here to fine-tune your desired game settings".

 Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to th

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Phillip Vector]

Correlation does not imply causation.

Player counts being lower does not mean that it's because of the quickplay
decision.

>I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this.

Neither do I. Can you please stop because it's not necessarily a relevant
fact.


On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Regardless of the reason Valve has for essentially removing community
> servers from quickplay, this change has done more harm than good.
>
> I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this. How many more
> players does TF2 need to lose before someone at Valve wakes up? It is
> already summer time and player counts are lower than ever.
>
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> The longer this policy remains the more permanent damage you are doing to
> communities people have spent years building up.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
>> Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's
>> minor to you may not be minor to others.
>>
>> Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's
>> backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without
>> JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details.
>> Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because
>> having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.
>>
>> I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than have
>> to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said, the
>> HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.
>>
>> Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay connections.
>> I really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's already been
>> crippled considerably.
>>
>>
>> Dr. McKay
>> www.doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
>>> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
>>> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
>>> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
>>> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
>>> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
>>> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
>>> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
>>> rest of us.
>>>
>>> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted
>>> approach to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly,
>>> unethical) way to treat all server operators.
>>>
>>> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
>>> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
>>> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
>>> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
>>> for all servers.
>>>
>>> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring"
>>> system (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to
>>> weed out all the bad apples in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 >
 ​
 Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and
 I wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
 flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
 would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).

 This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely
 on the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
 streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
 features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
 existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.

 Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
 everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
 school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
 run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
 we're being treated now.

 I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
 how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
 directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
 Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
 agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
 actually join a game.

 Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says
 something like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

Regardless of the reason Valve has for essentially removing community
servers from quickplay, this change has done more harm than good.

I don't know how many times I need to keep citing this. How many more
players does TF2 need to lose before someone at Valve wakes up? It is
already summer time and player counts are lower than ever.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

The longer this policy remains the more permanent damage you are doing to
communities people have spent years building up.


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:04 PM, Alexander Corn 
wrote:

> Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's
> minor to you may not be minor to others.
>
> Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's
> backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without
> JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details.
> Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because
> having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.
>
> I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than have
> to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said, the
> HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.
>
> Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay connections.
> I really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's already been
> crippled considerably.
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
>> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
>> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
>> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
>> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
>> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
>> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
>> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
>> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
>> rest of us.
>>
>> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
>> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
>> to treat all server operators.
>>
>> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
>> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
>> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
>> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
>> for all servers.
>>
>> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
>> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
>> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> >
>>> ​
>>> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
>>> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
>>> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
>>> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>>>
>>> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
>>> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
>>> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
>>> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
>>> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>>>
>>> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
>>> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
>>> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
>>> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
>>> we're being treated now.
>>>
>>> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
>>> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
>>> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
>>> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
>>> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
>>> actually join a game.
>>>
>>> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
>>> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
>>> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
>>> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>>>
>>> Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings
>>> button (which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and
>>> also a dialog that explains the difference between official and community
>>> servers.
>>>
>>> "Official servers o

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Alexander Corn]

Source radio is obviously not the only thing that it would break. What's
minor to you may not be minor to others.

Plenty of TF2 trade servers have a !bp command which opens a player's
backpack (in an online backpack viewer) in the MOTD panel. Without
JavaScript, hovering over an item won't show a tooltip with its details.
Sure, this could be done in CSS exclusively, but nobody does that because
having JavaScript enabled is basically a given in modern web development.

I'd rather have to work harder to populate my Quickplay servers than have
to deal with a completely useless MOTD browser. As others have said, the
HTML MOTD disable option is there for a reason.

Additionally, HTML MOTDs aren't even displayed for Quickplay connections. I
really don't understand why it's even an issue anymore. It's already been
crippled considerably.


Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
> rest of us.
>
> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
> to treat all server operators.
>
> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
> for all servers.
>
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
>> >
>> ​
>> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
>> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
>> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
>> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>>
>> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
>> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
>> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
>> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
>> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>>
>> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
>> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
>> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
>> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
>> we're being treated now.
>>
>> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
>> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
>> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
>> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
>> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
>> actually join a game.
>>
>> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
>> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
>> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
>> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>>
>> Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings
>> button (which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and
>> also a dialog that explains the difference between official and community
>> servers.
>>
>> "Official servers offer an unmodified and uncustomized experience."
>>
>> "Community servers typically offer better moderation, some minor gameplay
>> modifications, and a greater sense of community."
>>
>>
>> Dr. McKay
>> www.doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
 purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
 they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
 like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
 and other like-minded stains.
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I would consider that a valid argument if it wasn't Valve who
>>> had enabled the "a

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[1nsane]

And if the scoring system was better those kind of servers would have
started losing out on players.

Because surely these kind of servers would have more people leave
immediately after join (compared to servers that don't do this).
And as such if you punish your players by preventing them from playing
properly you should only be punishing yourself.




On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 4:49 PM, Saint K.  wrote:

> There are servers out there detecting the disablehtml cvar and effectively
> punishing you for it.
>
>
>
> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:29 PM
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2
>
>
>
> And that's why cl_disablehtmlmotd exists, to allow the choice. All
> disabling Flash and other elements in a HTML MOTD for all servers will do
> is just punish everyone, it's hardly a solution really. You may as well say
> "lets take away all abilities to customise any element in the game from
> GSO's", because little by little that's what it's becoming if that happens.
> Now, if users had the options to disable certain elements within the HTML
> MOTD, rather than disable the HTML MOTD entirely with cl_disablehtmlmotd,
> then that might be a reasonable solution.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4 June 2014 18:50, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
> rest of us.
>
>
>
> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
> to treat all server operators.
>
>
>
> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
> for all servers.
>
>
>
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> ​
>
> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>
>
>
> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>
>
>
> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
> we're being treated now.
>
>
>
> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
> actually join a game.
>
>
>
> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>
>
>

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Asher Baker]

And those servers should also get to make that choice if they wish - as
long as they're not bypassing it (and are not in the quickplay pool)
they're not doing anything wrong.


~
"Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
  And they went to sea in a Sieve." - Edward Lear


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Saint K.  wrote:

> There are servers out there detecting the disablehtml cvar and effectively
> punishing you for it.
>
>
>
> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:29 PM
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2
>
>
>
> And that's why cl_disablehtmlmotd exists, to allow the choice. All
> disabling Flash and other elements in a HTML MOTD for all servers will do
> is just punish everyone, it's hardly a solution really. You may as well say
> "lets take away all abilities to customise any element in the game from
> GSO's", because little by little that's what it's becoming if that happens.
> Now, if users had the options to disable certain elements within the HTML
> MOTD, rather than disable the HTML MOTD entirely with cl_disablehtmlmotd,
> then that might be a reasonable solution.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4 June 2014 18:50, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
> rest of us.
>
>
>
> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
> to treat all server operators.
>
>
>
> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
> for all servers.
>
>
>
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> ​
>
> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>
>
>
> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>
>
>
> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
> we're being treated now.
>
>
>
> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
> actually join a game.
>
>
>
> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>
>
>
> Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that po

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Saint K.]

There are servers out there detecting the disablehtml cvar and effectively 
punishing you for it.
 
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2014 10:29 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2
 
And that's why cl_disablehtmlmotd exists, to allow the choice. All disabling 
Flash and other elements in a HTML MOTD for all servers will do is just punish 
everyone, it's hardly a solution really. You may as well say "lets take away 
all abilities to customise any element in the game from GSO's", because little 
by little that's what it's becoming if that happens. Now, if users had the 
options to disable certain elements within the HTML MOTD, rather than disable 
the HTML MOTD entirely with cl_disablehtmlmotd, then that might be a reasonable 
solution.
 
 
 
On 4 June 2014 18:50, E. Olsen  wrote:
I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal solution, 
but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio, etc.), if it 
would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would be a very small 
sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said "we'll enable all 
servers by default, but we need to remove those elements from the web browser 
to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly believe as long as 
operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it will be abused by the 
blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the rest of us.
 
I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach to 
dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way to 
treat all server operators. 
 
I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay options, 
but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with "maximum 
diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt out, instead 
of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field for all servers.
 
On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system 
(apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed out 
all the bad apples in the first place.
 
On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn  wrote:
> 
​
Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I wish 
to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling 
flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which would 
have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
 
This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on the 
MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio streams, but 
many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom features. Removing 
those features is still removing features that have existed for a very long 
time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
 
Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why everyone 
should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade school gym class. 
Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone run laps or whatever 
because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how we're being treated now.
 
I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious how to 
switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups directing 
them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc. Ironically, these 
popups really only cover the item system, which most can agree comes second to 
actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to actually join a game.
 
Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something like, 
"Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and one that 
points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here to fine-tune 
your desired game settings".
 
Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings button 
(which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and also a dialog 
that explains the difference between official and community servers.
 
"Official servers offer an unmodified and uncustomized experience."
 
"Community servers typically offer better moderation, some minor gameplay 
modifications, and a greater sense of community."

 
Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com
 
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very purposefully 
forcing community run servers into the minority because they're straight tired 
of having to play code-counter-code withe people like the fuckjobs who 
programmed plugins to force ads down players throats and other like-minded 
stains. 
 
I guess I would consider that a

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Paul]

And that's why cl_disablehtmlmotd exists, to allow the choice. All
disabling Flash and other elements in a HTML MOTD for all servers will do
is just punish everyone, it's hardly a solution really. You may as well say
"lets take away all abilities to customise any element in the game from
GSO's", because little by little that's what it's becoming if that happens.
Now, if users had the options to disable certain elements within the HTML
MOTD, rather than disable the HTML MOTD entirely with cl_disablehtmlmotd,
then that might be a reasonable solution.




On 4 June 2014 18:50, E. Olsen  wrote:

> I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
> solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
> etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
> be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
> "we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
> from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
> believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
> will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
> rest of us.
>
> I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
> to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
> to treat all server operators.
>
> I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
> options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
> "maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
> out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
> for all servers.
>
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
> wrote:
>
>> >
>> ​
>> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
>> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
>> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
>> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>>
>> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
>> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
>> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
>> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
>> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>>
>> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
>> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
>> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
>> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
>> we're being treated now.
>>
>> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
>> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
>> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
>> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
>> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
>> actually join a game.
>>
>> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
>> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
>> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
>> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>>
>> Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings
>> button (which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and
>> also a dialog that explains the difference between official and community
>> servers.
>>
>> "Official servers offer an unmodified and uncustomized experience."
>>
>> "Community servers typically offer better moderation, some minor gameplay
>> modifications, and a greater sense of community."
>>
>>
>> Dr. McKay
>> www.doctormckay.com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
 purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
 they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
 like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
 and other like-minded stains.
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I would consider that a valid argument if it wasn't Valve who
>>> had enabled the "ad farms" in the first place. Those things were never a
>>> problem before quickplay came along, because those kinds of servers would
>>> never get favorited to see a return visitor. The Pinion-supported folks
>>> were only enabled by quickplay, plain and simple - which is why when Pinion
>>> came on the scene shortly after qui

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[E. Olsen]

Correct - accounts were limited to being able to a maximum of 15 points per
day to a server's score, so normal server seeding (or even using a bunch of
alt accounts like you described) should not have influenced a server's
score more than an insignificant amount.

>From all appearances, it looks to me that the system was not working as
intended at all. If memory serves, the scoring system was supposed to allow
the "high" scoring servers to naturally receive more and more quickplay
traffic as time went on, while poor scoring servers would eventually drop
off the map.but it looks like the server scores weren't taken into
account at all.


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 4:13 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That wasn't the reason. The scoring system was bad to begin with.
>
> There is a limit to how many points an account can give. So having the
> same 23 "people" shouldn't influence it. Then if the real players were
> leaving after seeing those fake players the score should drop.
>
> I had servers that were really popular for years and that didn't matter.
> Someone put up a bunch of servers with fakes in the area and quickplay
> sends them traffic first.  Not a very good system. The score was nearly
> meaningless.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:
>
>> That one's easy... they used real Steam accounts to act as bots to always
>> have a presence on their server.
>>
>> If you have, say, 23 or 31 accounts always connected to your server, the
>> server's score ends up being very high.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote
>>
>>>
>>> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring"
>>> system (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to
>>> weed out all the bad apples in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Ross Bemrose
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[1nsane]

That wasn't the reason. The scoring system was bad to begin with.

There is a limit to how many points an account can give. So having the same
23 "people" shouldn't influence it. Then if the real players were leaving
after seeing those fake players the score should drop.

I had servers that were really popular for years and that didn't matter.
Someone put up a bunch of servers with fakes in the area and quickplay
sends them traffic first.  Not a very good system. The score was nearly
meaningless.




On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 3:35 PM, Ross Bemrose  wrote:

> That one's easy... they used real Steam accounts to act as bots to always
> have a presence on their server.
>
> If you have, say, 23 or 31 accounts always connected to your server, the
> server's score ends up being very high.
>
> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote
>
>>
>> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
>> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
>> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
> --
> Ross Bemrose
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Ross Bemrose]

That one's easy... they used real Steam accounts to act as bots to always
have a presence on their server.

If you have, say, 23 or 31 accounts always connected to your server, the
server's score ends up being very high.

On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 1:50 PM, E. Olsen  wrote
>
>
> On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
> (apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
> out all the bad apples in the first place.
>
>
>
-- 
Ross Bemrose
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[E. Olsen]

I agree that disabling javascript/flash/html5 is less than an ideal
solution, but for the very minor things it would disable (source radio,
etc.), if it would allow Valve to return to a level playing field it would
be a very small sacrifice. I'm sure if Valve came to all of us and said
"we'll enable all servers by default, but we need to remove those elements
from the web browser to do so" we would all jump at that chance. I honestly
believe as long as operators have the ability to run those kinds of ads it
will be abused by the blackhat folks to the point that they ruin it for the
rest of us.

I fully agree that mass punishment is/was a seriously ham-fisted approach
to dealing with the issues, and was the wrong (and frankly, unethical) way
to treat all server operators.

I like your ideas for better informing the players regarding quickplay
options, but as with any system of this kind, I think it should start with
"maximum diversity" fully enabled by default, and allow the players to opt
out, instead of opting in. Only then will it be a truly level playing field
for all servers.

On a side note, I would also like to know why the "server scoring" system
(apparently) didn't work, and why it wasn't more effectively used to weed
out all the bad apples in the first place.


On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Alexander Corn 
wrote:

> >
> ​
> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).
>
> This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
> the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
> streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
> features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
> existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.
>
> Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
> everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
> school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
> run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
> we're being treated now.
>
> I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious
> how to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
> directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
> Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
> agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
> actually join a game.
>
> Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
> like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
> one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
> to fine-tune your desired game settings".
>
> Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings
> button (which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and
> also a dialog that explains the difference between official and community
> servers.
>
> "Official servers offer an unmodified and uncustomized experience."
>
> "Community servers typically offer better moderation, some minor gameplay
> modifications, and a greater sense of community."
>
>
> Dr. McKay
> www.doctormckay.com
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
>>> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
>>> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
>>> and other like-minded stains.
>>
>>
>> I guess I would consider that a valid argument if it wasn't Valve who had
>> enabled the "ad farms" in the first place. Those things were never a
>> problem before quickplay came along, because those kinds of servers would
>> never get favorited to see a return visitor. The Pinion-supported folks
>> were only enabled by quickplay, plain and simple - which is why when Pinion
>> came on the scene shortly after quickplay came along, you had these guys go
>> from a dozen or so servers to 100+ just to farm ad impressions.
>>
>> ​​
>> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
>> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
>> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
>> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely). If they did that,
>> and just quietly dropped any of the "premium" servers from quickplay, they
>> would have knocked out all but the most determined black-hat folks, and
>> those can always be dealt with.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>>
>>> Replied to the last message, I'll post

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Alexander Corn]

>
​
Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely).

This is still not an ideal solution. Plenty of community servers rely on
the MOTD and features such as JavaScript and Flash (mostly for audio
streams, but many are switching to HTML5 audio elements) for their custom
features. Removing those features is still removing features that have
existed for a very long time due to the abusive tendencies of a few.

Those that are abusive should be dealt with. There is no reason why
everyone should suffer in order to punish a few. It goes back to grade
school gym class. Weren't you pissed when the teacher/coach made everyone
run laps or whatever because 3-4 kids wouldn't stop talking? That's how
we're being treated now.

I could live with the default Valve-only option if it were more obvious how
to switch it. When the player first starts up TF2, they're shown popups
directing them to the store, showing them how the backpack works, etc.
Ironically, these popups really only cover the item system, which most can
agree comes second to actual gameplay. There's no coaching regarding how to
actually join a game.

Display a balloon that points to the Quickplay button and says something
like, "Click here to be quickly matched into a game based on gamemode" and
one that points to the servers button and says something like, "Click here
to fine-tune your desired game settings".

Also show a balloon in the Quickplay dialog that points to the settings
button (which isn't exactly immediately apparent as being clickable) and
also a dialog that explains the difference between official and community
servers.

"Official servers offer an unmodified and uncustomized experience."

"Community servers typically offer better moderation, some minor gameplay
modifications, and a greater sense of community."


Dr. McKay
www.doctormckay.com


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:45 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
>> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
>> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
>> and other like-minded stains.
>
>
> I guess I would consider that a valid argument if it wasn't Valve who had
> enabled the "ad farms" in the first place. Those things were never a
> problem before quickplay came along, because those kinds of servers would
> never get favorited to see a return visitor. The Pinion-supported folks
> were only enabled by quickplay, plain and simple - which is why when Pinion
> came on the scene shortly after quickplay came along, you had these guys go
> from a dozen or so servers to 100+ just to farm ad impressions.
>
> ​​
> Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
> wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
> flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
> would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely). If they did that,
> and just quietly dropped any of the "premium" servers from quickplay, they
> would have knocked out all but the most determined black-hat folks, and
> those can always be dealt with.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
>> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>>
>> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
>> things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
>> any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
>> for information.
>>
>> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
>> damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
>> for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
>> but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
>> obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
>> argument in it's entirety.
>>
>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
>> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
>> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
>> and other like-minded stains.
>>
>> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's virtually
>> impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both binaries,
>> so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get access by about
>> 90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
>> monetized TF2.
>>
>> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
>> people who run servers are upset by this o

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Yun Huang Yong]

Could there be issues with the Valve servers in your region?

We saw a similar trend in Australia when, a few weeks ago, the AU Valve 
servers all disappeared (same time as when the US East servers 
disappeared). For a couple of weeks, whilst the AU Valve servers were 
dead, all of the community servers did strongly.


Note that although something like ~30 AU Valve servers died, <10 
community servers were populated in their place. I don't know where the 
roughly 200 (at peak times) other active player slots disappeared to, 
I'm guessing they were assigned by Quickplay to overseas servers.


However, as soon as the AU Valve servers returned (~3 days ago) 
community servers are struggling again -- and I would argue are doing 
worse than before the AU Valve servers disappeared temporarily.


On a broader note:

Two of the most popular community groups in AU prior to the Quickplay 
change have dwindled from 5 servers being full almost 24x7 to struggling 
to even get one server running now. At the current rate of deterioration 
I'd be surprised if both of them were still running in 3 months.


On the other hand the largest ad spammer in AU is doing even worse. They 
continue to operate a very large number of [mostly empty] servers for 
reasons unknown.


On 4/06/2014 3:06 AM, ics wrote:

No, the setting still defaults official servers but i'm thinking of they
changed something in the backend.

-ics

Daniel Barreiro kirjoitti:

Are you saying they fixed it?


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:59 PM, ics mailto:i...@ics-base.net>> wrote:

Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting
from official to community, after reading our messages because vs
the past 3 months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this
keeps up, things go back to normal as they were before the change
was made.

-ics

Robert Paulson kirjoitti:

No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get
players to use client modifications because even if they were
willing to download it, they would get vacced.

The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug
where the big motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing
community servers from quickplay was laziness and not due to
any technical impossibility.

If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they
should do that in their newer games. Can you imagine the
outrage that would happen if EA pulled the same stunt on
Battlefield by throwing all community servers off the main list?


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt mailto:eliw...@gmail.com> >> wrote:

Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.

Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at
keeping a
lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not
because
we're disgruntled and asking for information.

And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this
list is
worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give
their
players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking
steps
(and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in
it's
entirety.

Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is
very
purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
because they're straight tired of having to play
code-counter-code
withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to
force ads
down players throats and other like-minded stains.

We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this.
It's
virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing
people
into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
monetized TF2.

If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a
piss
whether people who run servers are upset by this or
threaten to
pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.

Just a thought.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>
>>
wrote:

Making a new thread because replies are being blocke

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

> We as players have access to the server binaries to reverse all we want,
same with the client files, how is that not having access to both ends?

We do not have equal access to modify the client, so once the client is
fixed, it is fixed forever and it cannot be broken by server operators.

This is why no one can attach models in TF2 anymore.





On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:16 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> > No we don't have access to binaries on both ends
>
> We as players have access to the server binaries to reverse all we want,
> same with the client files, how is that not having access to both ends? I
> never included the statement of having the ability to modify them both at
> runtime.
>
> My point was validated when you said the ad exploit - this is what I was
> referring to and it was found by someone either reverse engineering the
> client or simply finding ways to exploit it without reversing it.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players to
>> use client modifications because even if they were willing to download it,
>> they would get vacced.
>>
>> The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the big
>> motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from quickplay
>> was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.
>>
>> If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do that
>> in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if EA
>> pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers off
>> the main list?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>>
>>> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>>>
>>> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
>>> things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
>>> any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
>>> for information.
>>>
>>> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
>>> damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
>>> for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
>>> but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
>>> obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
>>> argument in it's entirety.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
>>> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
>>> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
>>> and other like-minded stains.
>>>
>>> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's
>>> virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both
>>> binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get
>>> access by about 90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run
>>> now that we've monetized TF2.
>>>
>>> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
>>> people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to pull their servers
>>> offline because of this decision, because that's the direction I wanted to
>>> force you in anyway.
>>>
>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message
 body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".

 Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it
 is a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.

 Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
 http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
 Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.

 We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer
 is probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience
 for a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to
 type valve in the tags.

 So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released
 server migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
 community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
 outrage.

 What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that
 this change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.

 Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we
 host servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.

 Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
 dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
 vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.


 http://www.steamgraph

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Eli Witt]

> No we don't have access to binaries on both ends

We as players have access to the server binaries to reverse all we want,
same with the client files, how is that not having access to both ends? I
never included the statement of having the ability to modify them both at
runtime.

My point was validated when you said the ad exploit - this is what I was
referring to and it was found by someone either reverse engineering the
client or simply finding ways to exploit it without reversing it.




On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players to
> use client modifications because even if they were willing to download it,
> they would get vacced.
>
> The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the big
> motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from quickplay
> was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.
>
> If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do that
> in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if EA
> pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers off
> the main list?
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:
>
>> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>>
>> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
>> things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
>> any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
>> for information.
>>
>> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
>> damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
>> for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
>> but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
>> obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
>> argument in it's entirety.
>>
>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
>> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
>> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
>> and other like-minded stains.
>>
>> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's virtually
>> impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both binaries,
>> so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get access by about
>> 90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
>> monetized TF2.
>>
>> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
>> people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to pull their servers
>> offline because of this decision, because that's the direction I wanted to
>> force you in anyway.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message body
>>> is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>>>
>>> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it is
>>> a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.
>>>
>>> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
>>> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
>>> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.
>>>
>>> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer
>>> is probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience
>>> for a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to
>>> type valve in the tags.
>>>
>>> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released
>>> server migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
>>> community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
>>> outrage.
>>>
>>> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that
>>> this change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.
>>>
>>> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we
>>> host servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.
>>>
>>> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
>>> dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
>>> vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Chris Oryschak]

I haven't notice an increase in traffic yet, can anyone else confirm this?


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 1:05 PM, Lambda  wrote:

> Mine shows community servers as default but honestly i can't remember if i
> switched it in the past.
>
>
> 2014-06-03 19:01 GMT+02:00 Daniel Barreiro  >:
>
> Are you saying they fixed it?
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:59 PM, ics  wrote:
>>
>>> Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting from
>>> official to community, after reading our messages because vs the past 3
>>> months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this keeps up, things go
>>> back to normal as they were before the change was made.
>>>
>>> -ics
>>>
>>> Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
>>>
 No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players
 to use client modifications because even if they were willing to download
 it, they would get vacced.

 The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the
 big motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from
 quickplay was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.

 If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do
 that in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if
 EA pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers
 off the main list?


 On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt >>> eliw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.

 Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a
 lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
 acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not because
 we're disgruntled and asking for information.

 And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is
 worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
 providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give their
 players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
 unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking steps
 (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in it's
 entirety.

 Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
 purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
 because they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code
 withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads
 down players throats and other like-minded stains.

 We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's
 virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
 access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
 footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing people
 into the servers we can afford to run now that we've monetized TF2.

 If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss
 whether people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to
 pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
 that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.

 Just a thought.


 On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
 mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with
 "Message body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".

 Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't
 mean it is a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here
 as well.

 Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
 http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
 Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him
 too.

 We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer".
 The answer is probably the same as before: a handful of
 servers ruined the experience for a few new players and some
 lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type valve in the tags.

 So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and
 released server migrations at the same time to shut you up
 before you realize your community was also going to get
 screwed so there would be no huge public outrage.

 What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to
 realize that this change did more harm than good and there is
 evidence to prove it.

 Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased
 because we host servers and somehow that means we don't care
 about players.

 Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily
 b

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Lambda]

Mine shows community servers as default but honestly i can't remember if i
switched it in the past.


2014-06-03 19:01 GMT+02:00 Daniel Barreiro :

> Are you saying they fixed it?
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:59 PM, ics  wrote:
>
>> Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting from
>> official to community, after reading our messages because vs the past 3
>> months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this keeps up, things go
>> back to normal as they were before the change was made.
>>
>> -ics
>>
>> Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
>>
>>> No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players
>>> to use client modifications because even if they were willing to download
>>> it, they would get vacced.
>>>
>>> The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the big
>>> motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from quickplay
>>> was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.
>>>
>>> If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do that
>>> in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if EA
>>> pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers off
>>> the main list?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt >> eliw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>>>
>>> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a
>>> lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
>>> acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not because
>>> we're disgruntled and asking for information.
>>>
>>> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is
>>> worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
>>> providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give their
>>> players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
>>> unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking steps
>>> (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in it's
>>> entirety.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
>>> because they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code
>>> withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads
>>> down players throats and other like-minded stains.
>>>
>>> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's
>>> virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
>>> access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
>>> footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing people
>>> into the servers we can afford to run now that we've monetized TF2.
>>>
>>> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss
>>> whether people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to
>>> pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
>>> that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.
>>>
>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
>>> mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with
>>> "Message body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>>>
>>> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't
>>> mean it is a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
>>> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
>>> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him
>>> too.
>>>
>>> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer".
>>> The answer is probably the same as before: a handful of
>>> servers ruined the experience for a few new players and some
>>> lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type valve in the tags.
>>>
>>> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and
>>> released server migrations at the same time to shut you up
>>> before you realize your community was also going to get
>>> screwed so there would be no huge public outrage.
>>>
>>> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to
>>> realize that this change did more harm than good and there is
>>> evidence to prove it.
>>>
>>> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased
>>> because we host servers and somehow that means we don't care
>>> about players.
>>>
>>> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily
>>> been dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss.
>>> And summer vacation has already started as you can see from
>>> the weekday player counts.
>>>
>>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[ics]

No, the setting still defaults official servers but i'm thinking of they 
changed something in the backend.


-ics

Daniel Barreiro kirjoitti:

Are you saying they fixed it?


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:59 PM, ics > wrote:


Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting
from official to community, after reading our messages because vs
the past 3 months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this
keeps up, things go back to normal as they were before the change
was made.

-ics

Robert Paulson kirjoitti:

No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get
players to use client modifications because even if they were
willing to download it, they would get vacced.

The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug
where the big motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing
community servers from quickplay was laziness and not due to
any technical impossibility.

If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they
should do that in their newer games. Can you imagine the
outrage that would happen if EA pulled the same stunt on
Battlefield by throwing all community servers off the main list?


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt mailto:eliw...@gmail.com> >> wrote:

Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.

Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at
keeping a
lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not
because
we're disgruntled and asking for information.

And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this
list is
worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give their
players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking
steps
(and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in
it's
entirety.

Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is
very
purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
because they're straight tired of having to play
code-counter-code
withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to
force ads
down players throats and other like-minded stains.

We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this.
It's
virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing
people
into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
monetized TF2.

If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a
piss
whether people who run servers are upset by this or
threaten to
pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.

Just a thought.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>
>>
wrote:

Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with
"Message body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of
40 KB".

Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it
doesn't
mean it is a bad idea to keep the issue in the
spotlight here
as well.

Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so
email him too.

We're really past the point in asking Valve for an
"answer".
The answer is probably the same as before: a handful of
servers ruined the experience for a few new players
and some
lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type valve in
the tags.

So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and
released server migrations at the same time to shut you up
before you realize your community was also going to get
screwed so there would be no huge public outrage.

What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to
realize that this change did more harm than good and
there is
evidence to prove

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Daniel Barreiro]

Are you saying they fixed it?


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 12:59 PM, ics  wrote:

> Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting from
> official to community, after reading our messages because vs the past 3
> months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this keeps up, things go
> back to normal as they were before the change was made.
>
> -ics
>
> Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
>
>> No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players to
>> use client modifications because even if they were willing to download it,
>> they would get vacced.
>>
>> The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the big
>> motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from quickplay
>> was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.
>>
>> If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do that
>> in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if EA
>> pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers off
>> the main list?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt > eliw...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>>
>> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a
>> lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
>> acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not because
>> we're disgruntled and asking for information.
>>
>> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is
>> worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
>> providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give their
>> players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
>> unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking steps
>> (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in it's
>> entirety.
>>
>> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
>> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
>> because they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code
>> withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads
>> down players throats and other like-minded stains.
>>
>> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's
>> virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
>> access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
>> footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing people
>> into the servers we can afford to run now that we've monetized TF2.
>>
>> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss
>> whether people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to
>> pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
>> that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.
>>
>> Just a thought.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
>> mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with
>> "Message body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>>
>> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't
>> mean it is a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here
>> as well.
>>
>> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
>> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
>> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.
>>
>> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer".
>> The answer is probably the same as before: a handful of
>> servers ruined the experience for a few new players and some
>> lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type valve in the tags.
>>
>> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and
>> released server migrations at the same time to shut you up
>> before you realize your community was also going to get
>> screwed so there would be no huge public outrage.
>>
>> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to
>> realize that this change did more harm than good and there is
>> evidence to prove it.
>>
>> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased
>> because we host servers and somehow that means we don't care
>> about players.
>>
>> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily
>> been dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss.
>> And summer vacation has already started as you can see from
>> the weekday player counts.
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=
>> 1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
>> archives, please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftw

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[ics]

Did someone at Valve did something other than changing the setting from 
official to community, after reading our messages because vs the past 3 
months, i have now 300% increase on players and if this keeps up, things 
go back to normal as they were before the change was made.


-ics

Robert Paulson kirjoitti:
No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players 
to use client modifications because even if they were willing to 
download it, they would get vacced.


The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the 
big motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from 
quickplay was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.


If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do 
that in their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would 
happen if EA pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all 
community servers off the main list?



On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt > wrote:


Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.

Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a
lid on things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to
acknowledge this in any way unless they see fit to, not because
we're disgruntled and asking for information.

And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is
worth a damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones
providing the servers for Valve, we're the ones who give their
players a place to play etc etc" - but what I think is going
unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is obviously taking steps
(and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that argument in it's
entirety.

Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority
because they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code
withe people like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads
down players throats and other like-minded stains.

We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's
virtually impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with
access to both binaries, so let [Valve] just diminish the
footprint the fuckjobs get access by about 90% by forcing people
into the servers we can afford to run now that we've monetized TF2.

If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss
whether people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to
pull their servers offline because of this decision, because
that's the direction I wanted to force you in anyway.

Just a thought.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson
mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with
"Message body is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".

Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't
mean it is a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here
as well.

Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.

We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer".
The answer is probably the same as before: a handful of
servers ruined the experience for a few new players and some
lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type valve in the tags.

So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and
released server migrations at the same time to shut you up
before you realize your community was also going to get
screwed so there would be no huge public outrage.

What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to
realize that this change did more harm than good and there is
evidence to prove it.

Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased
because we host servers and somehow that means we don't care
about players.

Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily
been dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss.
And summer vacation has already started as you can see from
the weekday player counts.


http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
archives, please visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
archives, please visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




___
To unsubscribe, edit your list p

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

No we don't have access to binaries on both ends.We cannot get players to
use client modifications because even if they were willing to download it,
they would get vacced.

The ad exploit from what I heard was a one time client bug where the big
motd did not check the motd cvar. Removing community servers from quickplay
was laziness and not due to any technical impossibility.

If Valve wants a game free of community servers then they should do that in
their newer games. Can you imagine the outrage that would happen if EA
pulled the same stunt on Battlefield by throwing all community servers off
the main list?


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>
> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
> things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
> any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
> for information.
>
> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
> damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
> for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
> but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
> obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
> argument in it's entirety.
>
> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
> and other like-minded stains.
>
> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's virtually
> impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both binaries,
> so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get access by about
> 90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
> monetized TF2.
>
> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
> people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to pull their servers
> offline because of this decision, because that's the direction I wanted to
> force you in anyway.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message body
>> is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>>
>> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it is
>> a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.
>>
>> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
>> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
>> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.
>>
>> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer
>> is probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience
>> for a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to
>> type valve in the tags.
>>
>> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released server
>> migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
>> community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
>> outrage.
>>
>> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that this
>> change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.
>>
>> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we
>> host servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.
>>
>> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
>> dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
>> vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[E. Olsen]

>
> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
> and other like-minded stains.


I guess I would consider that a valid argument if it wasn't Valve who had
enabled the "ad farms" in the first place. Those things were never a
problem before quickplay came along, because those kinds of servers would
never get favorited to see a return visitor. The Pinion-supported folks
were only enabled by quickplay, plain and simple - which is why when Pinion
came on the scene shortly after quickplay came along, you had these guys go
from a dozen or so servers to 100+ just to farm ad impressions.

Further - if Valve wanted to get rid of those horrendous MOTD ads (and I
wish to hell they would), they could easily do it by disabling
flash/javascript/html5 from functioning in the in-game web browser (which
would have probably fixed the problem almost entirely). If they did that,
and just quietly dropped any of the "premium" servers from quickplay, they
would have knocked out all but the most determined black-hat folks, and
those can always be dealt with.




On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Eli Witt  wrote:

> Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.
>
> Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
> things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
> any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
> for information.
>
> And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
> damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
> for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
> but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
> obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
> argument in it's entirety.
>
> Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
> purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
> they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
> like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
> and other like-minded stains.
>
> We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's virtually
> impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both binaries,
> so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get access by about
> 90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
> monetized TF2.
>
> If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
> people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to pull their servers
> offline because of this decision, because that's the direction I wanted to
> force you in anyway.
>
> Just a thought.
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson 
> wrote:
>
>> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message body
>> is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>>
>> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it is
>> a bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.
>>
>> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
>> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
>> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.
>>
>> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer
>> is probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience
>> for a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to
>> type valve in the tags.
>>
>> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released server
>> migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
>> community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
>> outrage.
>>
>> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that this
>> change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.
>>
>> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we
>> host servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.
>>
>> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
>> dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
>> vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.
>>
>>
>> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/li

Re: [hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Eli Witt]

Replied to the last message, I'll post this here too.

Well, we know from experience just how good Valve is at keeping a lid on
things (case in point HL3) so I doubt they're going to acknowledge this in
any way unless they see fit to, not because we're disgruntled and asking
for information.

And for what it's worth, everyone (who's opinion on this list is worth a
damn) has thrown out the point that "we're the ones providing the servers
for Valve, we're the ones who give their players a place to play etc etc" -
but what I think is going unnoticed here is the fact that Valve is
obviously taking steps (and increasingly larger ones) to nullify that
argument in it's entirety.

Perhaps it's time to examine the possibility that Valve is very
purposefully forcing community run servers into the minority because
they're straight tired of having to play code-counter-code withe people
like the fuckjobs who programmed plugins to force ads down players throats
and other like-minded stains.

We've got the binaries on both ends, and Valve knows this. It's virtually
impossible to stop people from being fuckjobs with access to both binaries,
so let [Valve] just diminish the footprint the fuckjobs get access by about
90% by forcing people into the servers we can afford to run now that we've
monetized TF2.

If I was Valve and I made this decision, I wouldn't give a piss whether
people who run servers are upset by this or threaten to pull their servers
offline because of this decision, because that's the direction I wanted to
force you in anyway.

Just a thought.


On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Paulson 
wrote:

> Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message body
> is too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".
>
> Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it is a
> bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.
>
> Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
> http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
> Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.
>
> We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer is
> probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience for
> a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type
> valve in the tags.
>
> So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released server
> migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
> community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
> outrage.
>
> What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that this
> change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.
>
> Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we
> host servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.
>
> Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
> dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
> vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.
>
>
> http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

[hlds] Can we have a Quickplay Status report, please? 2

[Robert Paulson]

Making a new thread because replies are being blocked with "Message body is
too big: 41090 bytes with a limit of 40 KB".

Complaints here have historically gone ignored but it doesn't mean it is a
bad idea to keep the issue in the spotlight here as well.

Just make sure you also contact Valve directly.
http://valvesoftware.com/email.php
Some people say Fletcher is in charge of TF2 now so email him too.

We're really past the point in asking Valve for an "answer". The answer is
probably the same as before: a handful of servers ruined the experience for
a few new players and some lazy players who couldn't be bothered to type
valve in the tags.

So they threw in some useless features like quickpick and released server
migrations at the same time to shut you up before you realize your
community was also going to get screwed so there would be no huge public
outrage.

What needs to be done now is to get someone at Valve to realize that this
change did more harm than good and there is evidence to prove it.

Any other argument we bring up they will consider it biased because we host
servers and somehow that means we don't care about players.

Ever since the change, global TF2 player counts have steadily been
dropping. Peaks have dipped from 82k to 71k, a 15% loss. And summer
vacation has already started as you can see from the weekday player counts.

http://www.steamgraph.net/index.php?action=graph&jstime=1&appid=440&from=138856320&to=End+Time
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds