Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I don't understand why the server would lag if the CPU load is only at 80%. When the 24 player server is full, the CPU load averages about 80% with pingbooster off, yet the FPS fluctuates between 8 and 40. The server only gets skippy when the FPS drops below 20. What does the CPU have to do with FPS if it's only at 80% load? On 10/5/05, Whisper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] You do not have enough CPU You are running into a well known phenomenon with Valve Server Applications as they relate to their player number and CPU requirements. Don't run with over 18 players on that CPU. On 10/6/05, Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What would be the cause of low FPS on a Windows SRCDS? vid card? CPU? mobo? low FSB? The reason I ask is because my XP 1900+ 1GB RAM is struggling with FPS when more than 20 players join my 24 slot server. With 0 players, FPS is steady at 64 because of the Windows cap. With 20 players, it jumps between 30 and 50 FPS. With more than 20 players, it jumps between 8 and 40 FPS (very skippy gameplay). Even if pingbooster is enabled, the results are pretty much the same unless of course there are no players then it's in the 200+ range. When the server is completely full, the CPU averages about 80% load, yet the FPS is so low. Why? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I was asking the same questons 2 days ago. This may not help you with your preformance issues but it will tell you everything you need to know about framerates/tickrates. It also has a niffty fpsping boost utility thats really sweet. I went from 20-60 fps to 500 empty 200+ full server fps using this guide. Also a lot of my clients are commenting how aim has improved with the high 100 tickrate our servers run at. Hope this helps! http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=threadid=293285 -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] But that's just the thing; with pingbooster off, the 24 player server only uses about 70-80% is full, yet the FPS jumps between 8 and 40. How can this be if there's still a good 20% free on the CPU? On 10/5/05, sKel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yea, i would say just kill the pingbooster, that helps cpu, and just try to keep it at atleast 60ish.. i know on one of my boxes with 16 ppl playing the cpu is around like 15%, but if i enable a pingbooster, cpu automatically jumps to like 60%. but yea basically... your cpu is just too weak. - Original Message - From: Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:21 AM Subject: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What would be the cause of low FPS on a Windows SRCDS? vid card? CPU? mobo? low FSB? The reason I ask is because my XP 1900+ 1GB RAM is struggling with FPS when more than 20 players join my 24 slot server. With 0 players, FPS is steady at 64 because of the Windows cap. With 20 players, it jumps between 30 and 50 FPS. With more than 20 players, it jumps between 8 and 40 FPS (very skippy gameplay). Even if pingbooster is enabled, the results are pretty much the same unless of course there are no players then it's in the 200+ range. When the server is completely full, the CPU averages about 80% load, yet the FPS is so low. Why? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. On 10/5/05, scott brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I was asking the same questons 2 days ago. This may not help you with your preformance issues but it will tell you everything you need to know about framerates/tickrates. It also has a niffty fpsping boost utility thats really sweet. I went from 20-60 fps to 500 empty 200+ full server fps using this guide. Also a lot of my clients are commenting how aim has improved with the high 100 tickrate our servers run at. Hope this helps! http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=threadid=293285 -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
At 80% you are close to maxing out your CPU. What tools do you use to measure load? If it uses average, maybe your server is acctually hitting 100% many times as you will experience this as lag spikes. Big shoot-outs at big open spaces on a map will cause more use of CPU. I don't know how a CPU works, but there must be a cueue of some sort, right? At 80% this cueue will probably have a longer prosessing time then if you ran at 20-30%. Also the CPU might have a problem with heat at higher loads. Just brain-storming :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yup Sent: 6. oktober 2005 09:25 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What's frame rate got to do with a dedicated server, or it is not a dedicated server? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
RE: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
Hi, Please start quoting something or someone in your mails. Makes it so much more easy not having to go back to the older mails to understand what your replying to. Thanks :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Stevens (IAmAI) Sent: 6. oktober 2005 10:15 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What's frame rate got to do with a dedicated server, or it is not a dedicated server? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Yes, it's a dedicated server and the frame rate has a lot to do with it. The frame rate is how often the server checks for game packets. A server with a low frame rate like my full 24 player DoD: Source server won't check for game packets as often as a server with a high frame rate. This results in lag because although the server is cycling 66 ticks per second, the client only checks for a portion of those packets due to the server's low FPS even though the client has high FPS. Read more about it here: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=threadid=293285 This is why I'm so puzzled. My server's CPU is only at 80% load but the FPS is way too low. It would make more sense if the CPU was at 100% load. Alexander Kobbevik made some good points with the reasoning being this (just what I was looking for!) in another reply that I am going to respond to now. ** On 10/5/05, Dan Stevens (IAmAI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What's frame rate got to do with a dedicated server, or it is not a dedicated server? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I'm just using Task Manager and it's showing actual CPU usage, not average. I watch the Task Manager and the server's console FPS very carefully when the server is full. The CPU load very rarely reaches 100% but like I said most of the time (43 minutes out of the 45 minute map) it's at around 80%. What you said about the queue slowing down at 80% makes sense because yes the CPU will be hotter and heat slows things down. The theory seems correct but I don't know if it's completely true in this case. Anyone? Thanks for the reply, helped me get my head out of the numbers. On 10/5/05, Alexander Kobbevik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 80% you are close to maxing out your CPU. What tools do you use to measure load? If it uses average, maybe your server is acctually hitting 100% many times as you will experience this as lag spikes. Big shoot-outs at big open spaces on a map will cause more use of CPU. I don't know how a CPU works, but there must be a cueue of some sort, right? At 80% this cueue will probably have a longer prosessing time then if you ran at 20-30%. Also the CPU might have a problem with heat at higher loads. Just brain-storming :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yup Sent: 6. oktober 2005 09:25 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
alright.. with a cpu basically.. it can only do one single thing at a time, so the higher the usage, the longer any one thing has to wait to be processed (for say a frame) plus a million other things the cpu does at any one point in time. so basically when the cpu usage gets that hight, and since its a pretty weak cpu to begin with, it makes each frame, or process for the server wait. and every frame when theres more people has to process more, and then when the frame rate drops that low, it has to process even more to make up for the time it lost. so the cpu may only think its at 80% but when the FPS drops that low on a server.. your working the cpu wayy too hard. skel sorry if some of that sounds a bit dillusional. i just got out of bed... - Original Message - From: Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I'm just using Task Manager and it's showing actual CPU usage, not average. I watch the Task Manager and the server's console FPS very carefully when the server is full. The CPU load very rarely reaches 100% but like I said most of the time (43 minutes out of the 45 minute map) it's at around 80%. What you said about the queue slowing down at 80% makes sense because yes the CPU will be hotter and heat slows things down. The theory seems correct but I don't know if it's completely true in this case. Anyone? Thanks for the reply, helped me get my head out of the numbers. On 10/5/05, Alexander Kobbevik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 80% you are close to maxing out your CPU. What tools do you use to measure load? If it uses average, maybe your server is acctually hitting 100% many times as you will experience this as lag spikes. Big shoot-outs at big open spaces on a map will cause more use of CPU. I don't know how a CPU works, but there must be a cueue of some sort, right? At 80% this cueue will probably have a longer prosessing time then if you ran at 20-30%. Also the CPU might have a problem with heat at higher loads. Just brain-storming :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yup Sent: 6. oktober 2005 09:25 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I remove quotes in my replies in the mailing list as I use Gmail which cleverly lists previous messages with the same subject (like a web forum), so I don't have to go looking for messages. It makes it easier and looks nicer. I have plenty invitations so if you, or anyone else would like a Gmail address feel free to request one from me. Gmail is excellent. The client has excellent features, it's spam free and has (as your probably know) masses or storage capacity (and its increasing all the time ^_^ ) Would anyone be bothered if I started a thread offering Gmail accounts, or would that be inappropriate? The more people using Gmail, the happier I'll be because then I don't have to include quotes in my messages ^_^ On 06/10/05, Alexander Kobbevik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Please start quoting something or someone in your mails. Makes it so much more easy not having to go back to the older mails to understand what your replying to. Thanks :) -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
dkorp1 wrote: Microsoft says that if your cpu usage is at 80% constantly then you don't have enough cpu power. If srcds is maxing that then maybe your cpu is the issue. Well the resolution of the graph in Windows isn't exactly realtime. Possibly it's spiking up to the 100% frequently but not long enough to show up in the graph. The thing about running at such high limits is you give yourself nowhere to go when the process requires that quick extra bit of CPU. -- - m0gely http://quake2.telestream.com/ Q2 | Q3A | Counter-strike ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] You haven't stated what the FSB or anything else about it is other than the processor. In the same token, you are effortlessly trying to condemn your processor when it isnt literally hard wired to the internet there are many things in between your clients and the cpu. Start figuring out why its riding high instead of trying to figure out why you get skippy at 80% load. The 'skippy' feeling at 80% would be EXPECTED, not troubleshot!! Something else is bottlenecking you, and it sounds like you arent setting up the ping booster correctly. Turn off the ping booster, open Windows Media Player on the desktop and see where your fps goes. If it goes up, you need to look at what is going on in the background on this machine. If it goes down, you DEFINITELY have something major going wrong. Maybe you have a bad piece of hardware somewhere, it's a matter of diagnosing whats going on where. If you are running at 100 tick rate, start by lowering it and see if it eases the cpu load. But personally, I think your cpu is already underpowered to run a 24 man server. --Ozz -- Original message -- -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I'm just using Task Manager and it's showing actual CPU usage, not average. I watch the Task Manager and the server's console FPS very carefully when the server is full. The CPU load very rarely reaches 100% but like I said most of the time (43 minutes out of the 45 minute map) it's at around 80%. What you said about the queue slowing down at 80% makes sense because yes the CPU will be hotter and heat slows things down. The theory seems correct but I don't know if it's completely true in this case. Anyone? Thanks for the reply, helped me get my head out of the numbers. On 10/5/05, Alexander Kobbevik wrote: At 80% you are close to maxing out your CPU. What tools do you use to measure load? If it uses average, maybe your server is acctually hitting 100% many times as you will experience this as lag spikes. Big shoot-outs at big open spaces on a map will cause more use of CPU. I don't know how a CPU works, but there must be a cueue of some sort, right? At 80% this cueue will probably have a longer prosessing time then if you ran at 20-30%. Also the CPU might have a problem with heat at higher loads. Just brain-storming :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yup Sent: 6. oktober 2005 09:25 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] thanks for the reply On 10/6/05, sKel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: alright.. with a cpu basically.. it can only do one single thing at a time, so the higher the usage, the longer any one thing has to wait to be processed (for say a frame) plus a million other things the cpu does at any one point in time. so basically when the cpu usage gets that hight, and since its a pretty weak cpu to begin with, it makes each frame, or process for the server wait. and every frame when theres more people has to process more, and then when the frame rate drops that low, it has to process even more to make up for the time it lost. so the cpu may only think its at 80% but when the FPS drops that low on a server.. your working the cpu wayy too hard. skel sorry if some of that sounds a bit dillusional. i just got out of bed... - Original Message - From: Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] I'm just using Task Manager and it's showing actual CPU usage, not average. I watch the Task Manager and the server's console FPS very carefully when the server is full. The CPU load very rarely reaches 100% but like I said most of the time (43 minutes out of the 45 minute map) it's at around 80%. What you said about the queue slowing down at 80% makes sense because yes the CPU will be hotter and heat slows things down. The theory seems correct but I don't know if it's completely true in this case. Anyone? Thanks for the reply, helped me get my head out of the numbers. On 10/5/05, Alexander Kobbevik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 80% you are close to maxing out your CPU. What tools do you use to measure load? If it uses average, maybe your server is acctually hitting 100% many times as you will experience this as lag spikes. Big shoot-outs at big open spaces on a map will cause more use of CPU. I don't know how a CPU works, but there must be a cueue of some sort, right? At 80% this cueue will probably have a longer prosessing time then if you ran at 20-30%. Also the CPU might have a problem with heat at higher loads. Just brain-storming :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Yup Sent: 6. oktober 2005 09:25 To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Again, pingbooster does nothing because the server can't go above 40 FPS (it doesn't matter if pingbooster is on or off) when there are more than 20 players connected even though the CPU load is only at 80%. Sorry for all the replies, I sent that last one by mistake. I just don't understand what's limiting the FPS. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
[hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What would be the cause of low FPS on a Windows SRCDS? vid card? CPU? mobo? low FSB? The reason I ask is because my XP 1900+ 1GB RAM is struggling with FPS when more than 20 players join my 24 slot server. With 0 players, FPS is steady at 64 because of the Windows cap. With 20 players, it jumps between 30 and 50 FPS. With more than 20 players, it jumps between 8 and 40 FPS (very skippy gameplay). Even if pingbooster is enabled, the results are pretty much the same unless of course there are no players then it's in the 200+ range. When the server is completely full, the CPU averages about 80% load, yet the FPS is so low. Why? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] You do not have enough CPU You are running into a well known phenomenon with Valve Server Applications as they relate to their player number and CPU requirements. Don't run with over 18 players on that CPU. On 10/6/05, Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What would be the cause of low FPS on a Windows SRCDS? vid card? CPU? mobo? low FSB? The reason I ask is because my XP 1900+ 1GB RAM is struggling with FPS when more than 20 players join my 24 slot server. With 0 players, FPS is steady at 64 because of the Windows cap. With 20 players, it jumps between 30 and 50 FPS. With more than 20 players, it jumps between 8 and 40 FPS (very skippy gameplay). Even if pingbooster is enabled, the results are pretty much the same unless of course there are no players then it's in the 200+ range. When the server is completely full, the CPU averages about 80% load, yet the FPS is so low. Why? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
Re: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster
yea, i would say just kill the pingbooster, that helps cpu, and just try to keep it at atleast 60ish.. i know on one of my boxes with 16 ppl playing the cpu is around like 15%, but if i enable a pingbooster, cpu automatically jumps to like 60%. but yea basically... your cpu is just too weak. - Original Message - From: Yup [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 12:21 AM Subject: [hlds] Low FPS even with pingbooster -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] What would be the cause of low FPS on a Windows SRCDS? vid card? CPU? mobo? low FSB? The reason I ask is because my XP 1900+ 1GB RAM is struggling with FPS when more than 20 players join my 24 slot server. With 0 players, FPS is steady at 64 because of the Windows cap. With 20 players, it jumps between 30 and 50 FPS. With more than 20 players, it jumps between 8 and 40 FPS (very skippy gameplay). Even if pingbooster is enabled, the results are pretty much the same unless of course there are no players then it's in the 200+ range. When the server is completely full, the CPU averages about 80% load, yet the FPS is so low. Why? -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
