Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[kama]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, E3pO wrote:

> I personally think they need to make a bug zilla type thing that people can
> commit bugs to and then have a dev blog that people can rss to check for
> upcoming updates or questions. Then people can comment to the blog post.
> Keep the existing mailing list but also run a forum powered by the mailing
> list.. if someone posts a new thread it will also mail to the list. If
> someone replies by email or on the forum it will br sent to both the list
> and the forum..

So what you are saying is that you want valve to install a webmail client?

An even better sollution than your suggestion would be to use a private
usenet/news system instead of a mailinglist. And install a webfrontend for
usenet on valves servers. Most of the mail clients can connect to usenet
and there are also dedicated software out there in the world.

Usenet already have functions for tree structured read. Thats better than
most forums today. It also have a better overview on which threads are
read or not. At least on a mail or usenet client.

If done properly. They should be able to remove the forum and
mailing list alltogeter. And only use usenet.

/Bjorn

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[E3pO]

I personally think they need to make a bug zilla type thing that people can
commit bugs to and then have a dev blog that people can rss to check for
upcoming updates or questions. Then people can comment to the blog post.
Keep the existing mailing list but also run a forum powered by the mailing
list.. if someone posts a new thread it will also mail to the list. If
someone replies by email or on the forum it will br sent to both the list
and the forum..
On Oct 25, 2011 11:40 PM, "Jesse Molina"  wrote:

>
> I am going to drag this thread on a little more.
>
>
>
> There have been quite a few replies regarding two subjects:
>
> 1.) The opinion that the list/forum should be locked down somehow, based on
> a valid steam ID, or a server ID, etc.
>
> 2.) That the communications on the list should be limited to "server
> operations" or limited to server operators.
>
>
>
> The common factor to both is that it seems like we are objecting to some of
> the content on the mailing list as being irrelevant or off-topic.
>
> I really don't have a non-obvious suggestion for how to improve this here
> on the mailing list.
>
> But, I can point out to all of us the alternative:
>
> http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=**45
>
> For those of you who like forums, there it is.  =)
>
>
>
> Of the twenty threads on the front page, minus the stickies, my opinion
> tells me they all fell into the following categories and percentiles:
>
> 20%  Unix 101
> 20%  Computer basics 101
> 20%  I can't read the FAQs, can't google it, can't spell, PLEASE HELP ME!
> 20%  I'm doing something bat-shit crazy, PLEASE HELP ME!
> 10%  Off-topic
> 10%  Legit questions
>
> Note that I'm only looking at the Linux forums.  I don't read the Windows
> forums because they are even worse.
>
>
>
> Some of the more humorous/stupid ones:
>
> The six year old thread bump;
> http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**292724
>
> The guy who named his map file '$2000$';
> http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2195589
>
> Some guy has mp3 files and replays confused;
> http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2177640
>
> This guy wants wants more pointy clicky in his life;
> http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2165489
>
>
>
> Rob Liu wrote:
>
>> I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server
>> operators
>> only?
>>
>
> --
> # Jesse Molina
> # Mail = je...@opendreams.net
> # Page = page-je...@opendreams.net
> # Cell = 1.602.323.7608
> # Web  = http://www.opendreams.net/**jesse/
>
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Jesse Molina]

I am going to drag this thread on a little more.



There have been quite a few replies regarding two subjects:

1.) The opinion that the list/forum should be locked down somehow, based 
on a valid steam ID, or a server ID, etc.


2.) That the communications on the list should be limited to "server 
operations" or limited to server operators.




The common factor to both is that it seems like we are objecting to some 
of the content on the mailing list as being irrelevant or off-topic.


I really don't have a non-obvious suggestion for how to improve this 
here on the mailing list.


But, I can point out to all of us the alternative:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45

For those of you who like forums, there it is.  =)



Of the twenty threads on the front page, minus the stickies, my opinion 
tells me they all fell into the following categories and percentiles:


20%  Unix 101
20%  Computer basics 101
20%  I can't read the FAQs, can't google it, can't spell, PLEASE HELP ME!
20%  I'm doing something bat-shit crazy, PLEASE HELP ME!
10%  Off-topic
10%  Legit questions

Note that I'm only looking at the Linux forums.  I don't read the 
Windows forums because they are even worse.




Some of the more humorous/stupid ones:

The six year old thread bump;
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292724

The guy who named his map file '$2000$';
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195589

Some guy has mp3 files and replays confused;
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2177640

This guy wants wants more pointy clicky in his life;
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2165489



Rob Liu wrote:

I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators
only?


--
# Jesse Molina
# Mail = je...@opendreams.net
# Page = page-je...@opendreams.net
# Cell = 1.602.323.7608
# Web  = http://www.opendreams.net/jesse/



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

That's probably true, but I don't think a system should be setup to
cater to the minority.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Asher Baker  wrote:
> There are a few (probably very few, but we exist) people that "need"
> to monitor the list, and are perfectly capable of posting relevant
> replies, that don't run servers.
>
> The current system is fine, people that are being acidic to the
> quality of the list just need to be removed.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:32 PM, msleeper  
> wrote:
>> Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing
>> up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It
>> would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:
>>> I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators
>>> only?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama  wrote:
>>>


 On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:

 > There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
 > fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
 > month now.

 Last message was only a couple of days ago.

 Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released

 Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.

 Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
 Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
 before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
 scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
 keep up with the information.

 I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
 withing one site.

 /Bjorn

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
>>> please visit:
>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Asher Baker]

There are a few (probably very few, but we exist) people that "need"
to monitor the list, and are perfectly capable of posting relevant
replies, that don't run servers.

The current system is fine, people that are being acidic to the
quality of the list just need to be removed.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:32 PM, msleeper  wrote:
> Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing
> up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It
> would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:
>> I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators
>> only?
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:
>>>
>>> > There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
>>> > fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
>>> > month now.
>>>
>>> Last message was only a couple of days ago.
>>>
>>> Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released
>>>
>>> Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
>>> Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
>>> before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
>>> scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
>>> keep up with the information.
>>>
>>> I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
>>> withing one site.
>>>
>>> /Bjorn
>>>
>>> ___
>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>>> please visit:
>>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing
up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It
would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:
> I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators
> only?
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:
>>
>> > There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
>> > fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
>> > month now.
>>
>> Last message was only a couple of days ago.
>>
>> Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released
>>
>> Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.
>>
>> Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
>> Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
>> before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
>> scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
>> keep up with the information.
>>
>> I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
>> withing one site.
>>
>> /Bjorn
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[doc]

I'm casting my vote for the Mailing Group. It's nice to be able to check my
phone for a new message and see if I have to hit my emergency UPDATE SERVER
button. Forums that email me could do about the same thing, but there isn't
anything wrong with the current mailing list as it stands right now.

And for those who say they don't like the amount of spam that gets sent to
your inbox (read spam as: messages not pertaining to your servers/games),
you really should check out setting up filters to have these message avoid
your inbox unless it's a certain keyword or comes from a Valve worker
themselves.

If you do go the forum route could you set it up where we can still respond
via email or will we have to log into the forums? I'm pretty sure not every
admin services their box with a smartphone and ssh client but most times I'm
on the road and so this is my best option - if I have to load up a
web-browser and then log in just to post a crash report, I will be less
inclined to participate in any discussions - which might be a good thing?

Either way is fine, maybe it's just nostalgia but Mailing Groups are pretty
neato and helpful still. Especially for something like this.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 1:46 PM, kama  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:
>
> > There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
> > fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
> > month now.
>
> Last message was only a couple of days ago.
>
> Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released
>
> Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.
>
> Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
> Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
> before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
> scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
> keep up with the information.
>
> I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
> withing one site.
>
> /Bjorn
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Rob Liu]

I have another suggestion.  Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators
only?

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:
>
> > There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
> > fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
> > month now.
>
> Last message was only a couple of days ago.
>
> Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released
>
> Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.
>
> Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
> Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
> before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
> scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
> keep up with the information.
>
> I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
> withing one site.
>
> /Bjorn
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[kama]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote:

> There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
> fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
> month now.

Last message was only a couple of days ago.

Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released

Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list.

Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them.
Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told
before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of
scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to
keep up with the information.

I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed
withing one site.

/Bjorn

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Michael]

There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its
fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a
month now.

~Michael
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Ryan Alyea]

I'm not reading through all the responses, since it would be better served on a 
forum.

I am a member on this list to receive the announcement of updates (or as of 
lately, the pre-announcements, the update of "you must have your server 
registered").

If this list is to be preserved, I would like an "announcements only" list 
where I can receive the notices without the discussions.

Ryan Alyea
r...@fangamer.com

On Oct 24, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:

>> I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>> archives, or spends hours researching.
> 
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the 
> format of this list.
> 
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum 
> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the 
> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most 
> server admins prefer:
> 
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> 
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
> preference.
> 
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> 
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email 
> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 
> 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put 
> everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
> something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
> 
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what 
> everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what 
> everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format 
> (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
> 
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
> information on this list.
> 
> Please chime in.
> 
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
> 
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Michael]

A Google Group might be good because it can be used as mailman serv with a
nice visual frontend and archive. People who like this current format could
keep using it or people who are for forums could opt out of email updates
and just browse through the frontend. Everything would be much easier to
find and it could also host as file repositories for admin resources or a
dedicated place to upload crash dumps.

Beyond that I actually wish this list had more actual discussion in it.
There a few people on the list that treat it like a glorified newsletter
from valve and if anyone starts a thread other than a valve dev or replies
with something they personally believe has been clarified already or is not
relevant they become very aggressive and attack the person. Oddly enough
they are also the fist people to complain about getting spammed by the list
and the ones that generally break all threaded email clients with broken
">" spam. If you don't have anything constructive to say then just dont
say anything and if you really think the extra 20 emails a day is a problem
then switch to digest mode so you only get one email each day.

~Michael
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[James Puckett]

So... I'm for having a forum.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:59 AM, James Puckett <
jamesrichardpuck...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Forum = moderation.
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Kigen  wrote:
>
>> I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy.
>> :D
>>
>> Just got a coding idea.  We'll see where it goes.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers  wrote:
>> >
>> > I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more
>> then a
>> > forum (ease of use being one of them)
>> >
>> > But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have
>> > our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only
>> people
>> > with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there.
>> > Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of
>> the
>> > non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has
>> push
>> > alerts (with full reply for ease of use?)
>> >
>> > On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics  wrote:
>> >> I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading
>> >> regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete
>> >> immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse
>> >> around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the
>> >> SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after
>> your
>> >> reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum
>> >> again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many
>> >> immature people there, way less here on this list.
>> >>
>> >> People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they
>> want
>> >> to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier
>> >> search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and
>> >> have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that
>> >> should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find
>> the
>> >> thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people
>> >> browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer?
>> >> Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a
>> >> server for dummies".
>> >>
>> >> The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from
>> >> Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the
>> >> list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been
>> >> proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This
>> >> is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
>> >>
>> >> -ics
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
>> >>> What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
>> >>> archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
>> >>> this format.
>> >>>
>> >>> I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
>> >>> standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
>> >>> searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
>>  I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes
>> > out
>>  of
>>  this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
>>  already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
>>  have
>>  noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost
>> everyday.
>> 
>>  On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> > I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and
>> > replies
>> > are
>> > below:
>> >
>> > I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
>> > entry.
>> >   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which
>> >   means you
>> > probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that
>> > search
>> > engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list
>> is,
>> > and
>> > that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help
>> me.
>> >
>> > This
>> > mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most
>> > forums, a
>> > significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars,
>> > signatures,
>> > friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because
>> > they are
>> > ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared
>> > to
>> > email, is terrible.
>> >
>> > Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily
>> impacted
>> > by
>> > how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros)
>> > engage in
>> > the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to
>> participate
>> > in
>> > discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too
>> hard
>> >

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[James Puckett]

Forum = moderation.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Kigen  wrote:

> I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy.
> :D
>
> Just got a coding idea.  We'll see where it goes.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers  wrote:
> >
> > I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then
> a
> > forum (ease of use being one of them)
> >
> > But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have
> > our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people
> > with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there.
> > Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of
> the
> > non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push
> > alerts (with full reply for ease of use?)
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics  wrote:
> >> I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading
> >> regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete
> >> immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse
> >> around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the
> >> SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your
> >> reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum
> >> again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many
> >> immature people there, way less here on this list.
> >>
> >> People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want
> >> to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier
> >> search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and
> >> have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that
> >> should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the
> >> thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people
> >> browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer?
> >> Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a
> >> server for dummies".
> >>
> >> The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from
> >> Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the
> >> list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been
> >> proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This
> >> is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
> >>
> >> -ics
> >>
> >>
> >> 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
> >>> What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
> >>> archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
> >>> this format.
> >>>
> >>> I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
> >>> standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
> >>> searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
>  I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes
> > out
>  of
>  this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
>  already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
>  have
>  noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost
> everyday.
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina
>  wrote:
> 
> > I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and
> > replies
> > are
> > below:
> >
> > I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
> > entry.
> >   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which
> >   means you
> > probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that
> > search
> > engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list
> is,
> > and
> > that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help
> me.
> >
> > This
> > mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most
> > forums, a
> > significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars,
> > signatures,
> > friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because
> > they are
> > ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared
> > to
> > email, is terrible.
> >
> > Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily
> impacted
> > by
> > how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros)
> > engage in
> > the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate
> > in
> > discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too
> hard
> > if
> > this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
> >
> > About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
> > password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in
> > my
> > welcome email

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Kigen]

I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy. :D

Just got a coding idea.  We'll see where it goes.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers  wrote:
>
> I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a
> forum (ease of use being one of them)
>
> But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have
> our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people
> with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there.
> Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the
> non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push
> alerts (with full reply for ease of use?)
>
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics  wrote:
>> I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading
>> regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete
>> immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse
>> around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the
>> SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your
>> reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum
>> again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many
>> immature people there, way less here on this list.
>>
>> People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want
>> to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier
>> search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and
>> have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that
>> should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the
>> thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people
>> browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer?
>> Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a
>> server for dummies".
>>
>> The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from
>> Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the
>> list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been
>> proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This
>> is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
>>
>> -ics
>>
>>
>> 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
>>> What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
>>> archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
>>> this format.
>>>
>>> I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
>>> standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
>>> searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
 I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes
> out
 of
 this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
 already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
 have
 noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.

 On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina
 wrote:

> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and
> replies
> are
> below:
>
> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
> entry.
>   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which
>   means you
> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that
> search
> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is,
> and
> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.
>
> This
> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most
> forums, a
> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars,
> signatures,
> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because
> they are
> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared
> to
> email, is terrible.
>
> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted
> by
> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros)
> engage in
> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate
> in
> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard
> if
> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>
> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in
> my
> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
> searched the archives because I can't.
>
> It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed
> to
> many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an
> aquarium
> hobbyist, and I

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Eric Riemers]

I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a
forum (ease of use being one of them)

But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have
our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people
with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there.
Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the
non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push
alerts (with full reply for ease of use?)

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics  wrote:
> I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading 
> regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete 
> immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse 
> around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the 
> SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your 
> reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum 
> again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many 
> immature people there, way less here on this list.
> 
> People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want 
> to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier 
> search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and 
> have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that 
> should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the 
> thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people 
> browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? 
> Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a 
> server for dummies".
> 
> The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from 
> Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the 
> list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been 
> proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This 
> is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
> 
> -ics
> 
> 
> 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
>> What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
>> archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
>> this format.
>>
>> I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
>> standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
>> searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
>>> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes
out
>>> of
>>> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
>>> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
>>> have
>>> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and
replies
 are
 below:

 I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
 entry.
   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which
   means you
 probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that
 search
 engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is,
 and
 that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.

 This
 mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most
 forums, a
 significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars,
 signatures,
 friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because
 they are
 ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared
to
 email, is terrible.

 Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted
 by
 how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros)
 engage in
 the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate
 in
 discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard
 if
 this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.

 About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
 password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in
my
 welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
 searched the archives because I can't.

 It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed
 to
 many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an
aquarium
 hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has
 some
 specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This
 is
 also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.

 I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader 

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Carl]

It would probably be somewhat difficult, but would a hybrid approach be 
possible?  For example, make a subforum on the steam forums which 
mirrors all emails sent to this list, and pushes all posts made by 
logged-in forum users back to this list?  It would make this list 
searchable, people could still read and reply in their favorite news 
client, and the current people on the list could filter forum->list if 
they wanted to.




On 10/24/2011 8:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:

I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.

I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format 
of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was 
kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of 
the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most server admins 
prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email distribution 
list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the's and broken 
line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what 
everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what 
everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format 
(perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.

It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
information on this list.

Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Jeff Sugar]

Agreed. This plan seems like it'd do some good.

Perhaps a link could be in each email at the start or end with a link to it
on the archive? That'd make it easier for people to read any posts in that
thread they missed, especially newcomers
On Oct 25, 2011 12:07 AM, "Emil Larsson"  wrote:

> Better archiving is good, I don't think the archives are public either
> (other than the unofficial scraping forums), which they should be. Happened
> more than once that i show fellow admins something from this mailing list,
> and a open archive would let them follow the discussion.
>
> I'm happy with keeping the mailing list around. Though I admit it's a
> little
> hidden away, easy to overlook as a new admin.
>
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Fletcher Dunn
> wrote:
>
> > There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list.
> >
> > Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it
> > looks like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another
> > alternative that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our
> > while to migrate.
> >
> > Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we
> > could look into.
> >
> > I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up
> > this topic again. :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Fletch
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> > hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
> > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM
> > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
> >
> > I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading
> > regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete
> > immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse
> > around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the
> > SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your
> > reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum
> > again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many
> > immature people there, way less here on this list.
> >
> > People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want
> > to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier
> > search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and
> > have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that
> > should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the
> > thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people
> > browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer?
> > Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a
> > server for dummies".
> >
> > The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from
> > Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the
> > list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been
> > proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This
> > is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
> >
> > -ics
> >
> >
> > 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
> > > What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
> > > archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
> > > this format.
> > >
> > > I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
> > > standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
> > > searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
> > >> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes
> out
> > of
> > >> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
> > >> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
> > have
> > >> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost
> everyday.
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina
> >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and
> replies
> > are
> > >>> below:
> > >>>
> > >>> I prefer mailing lists because there is

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Emil Larsson]

Better archiving is good, I don't think the archives are public either
(other than the unofficial scraping forums), which they should be. Happened
more than once that i show fellow admins something from this mailing list,
and a open archive would let them follow the discussion.

I'm happy with keeping the mailing list around. Though I admit it's a little
hidden away, easy to overlook as a new admin.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list.
>
> Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it
> looks like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another
> alternative that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our
> while to migrate.
>
> Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we
> could look into.
>
> I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up
> this topic again. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Fletch
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading
> regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete
> immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse
> around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the
> SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your
> reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum
> again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many
> immature people there, way less here on this list.
>
> People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want
> to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier
> search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and
> have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that
> should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the
> thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people
> browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer?
> Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a
> server for dummies".
>
> The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from
> Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the
> list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been
> proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This
> is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.
>
> -ics
>
>
> 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
> > What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
> > archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
> > this format.
> >
> > I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
> > standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
> > searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
> >> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out
> of
> >> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
> >> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not
> have
> >> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina
>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies
> are
> >>> below:
> >>>
> >>> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
> entry.
> >>>   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which
> means you
> >>> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that
> search
> >>> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is,
> and
> >>> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.
>  This
> >>> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most
> forums, a
> >>> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars,
> signatures,
> >>> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because
> they are
> >>> ad-rev

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Fletcher Dunn]

There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list.

Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it looks 
like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another alternative 
that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our while to migrate.

Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we could 
look into.

I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up this 
topic again. :)

Cheers,
Fletch

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading 
regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete 
immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse 
around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the 
SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your 
reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum 
again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many 
immature people there, way less here on this list.

People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want 
to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier 
search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and 
have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that 
should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the 
thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people 
browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? 
Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a 
server for dummies".

The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from 
Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the 
list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been 
proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This 
is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.

-ics


25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:
> What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
> archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
> this format.
>
> I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
> standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
> searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
>> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of
>> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
>> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have
>> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina  wrote:
>>
>>> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies are
>>> below:
>>>
>>> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry.
>>>   Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means 
>>> you
>>> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
>>> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and
>>> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.  This
>>> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums, a
>>> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
>>> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are
>>> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
>>> email, is terrible.
>>>
>>> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
>>> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in
>>> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
>>> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
>>> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>>>
>>> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
>>> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
>>> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
>>> searched the archives because I can't.
>>>
>

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[ics]

I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading 
regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete 
immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse 
around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the 
SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your 
reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum 
again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many 
immature people there, way less here on this list.


People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want 
to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier 
search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and 
have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that 
should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the 
thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people 
browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? 
Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section "how to run a 
server for dummies".


The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from 
Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the 
list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been 
proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This 
is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down.


-ics


25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti:

What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
this format.

I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:

I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of
this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have
noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina  wrote:


I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies are
below:

I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry.
  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you
probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and
that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.  This
mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums, a
significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are
ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
email, is terrible.

Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in
the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.

About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
searched the archives because I can't.

It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to
many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an aquarium
hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some
specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This is
also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.

I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I see
browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey as my
mail clients, depending on where I'm at.

I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be
significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check email,
rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly.
  My Android client is k9mail.

Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out
the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I have my
own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free mail
provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and professionals
use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the
truth.

What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't use
those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is
mostly bec

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[hlds]

Use this:

http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds@list.valvesoftware.com/maillist.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/maillist.html

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Andrew
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 7:29 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
this format.

I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out
of
> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have
> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina 
wrote:
>
>>
>> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies
are
>> below:
>>
>> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to
entry.
>>  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means
you
>> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
>> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is,
and
>> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.
 This
>> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums,
a
>> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
>> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they
are
>> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
>> email, is terrible.
>>
>> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
>> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage
in
>> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
>> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
>> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>>
>> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
>> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
>> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
>> searched the archives because I can't.
>>
>> It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to
>> many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an aquarium
>> hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has
some
>> specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This is
>> also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.
>>
>> I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I see
>> browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey as
my
>> mail clients, depending on where I'm at.
>>
>> I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be
>> significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check email,
>> rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android
unfriendly.
>>  My Android client is k9mail.
>>
>> Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving
out
>> the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I have my
>> own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free mail
>> provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and professionals
>> use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the
>> truth.
>>
>> What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't
use
>> those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is
>> mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise
ratio.
>>  I only click on a very few threads.  In other words, my participation
level
>> is lower with web forums.
>>
>>
>>
>> Replies:
>>
>>
>> Kigen wrote:
>> > Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>>
>> That is what mail rules/filters are for.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> DarthNinja wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't like the idea of forums, b

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Andrew]

What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list
archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping
this format.

I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the
standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes
searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big +

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob  wrote:
> I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of
> this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
> already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have
> noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina  wrote:
>
>>
>> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies are
>> below:
>>
>> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry.
>>  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you
>> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
>> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and
>> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.  This
>> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums, a
>> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
>> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are
>> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
>> email, is terrible.
>>
>> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
>> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in
>> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
>> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
>> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>>
>> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
>> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
>> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
>> searched the archives because I can't.
>>
>> It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to
>> many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an aquarium
>> hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some
>> specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This is
>> also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.
>>
>> I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I see
>> browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey as my
>> mail clients, depending on where I'm at.
>>
>> I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be
>> significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check email,
>> rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly.
>>  My Android client is k9mail.
>>
>> Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out
>> the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I have my
>> own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free mail
>> provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and professionals
>> use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the
>> truth.
>>
>> What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't use
>> those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is
>> mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio.
>>  I only click on a very few threads.  In other words, my participation level
>> is lower with web forums.
>>
>>
>>
>> Replies:
>>
>>
>> Kigen wrote:
>> > Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>>
>> That is what mail rules/filters are for.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> DarthNinja wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data.
>> > People have to visit to check up on topics.
>> > People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum
>> environment.
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>>
>>
>> msleeper wrote:
>> > Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
>>
>> > facepunch, and I hope you realize it.
>>
>> Harsh, but true.
>>
>> This is why I signed up for the mailing list.  I am pro network
>> engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a
>> year ago.  I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on
>> server administration related tasks.  I did not come to discuss in-game
>> content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums.
>>
>> That being said, let's face it:  More than half of the people on this
>> (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command
>> line.  Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano.  Just gotta put up
>> with it... or maybe even h

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[m33crob]

I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of
this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm
already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have
noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina  wrote:

>
> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies are
> below:
>
> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry.
>  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you
> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and
> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.  This
> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums, a
> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are
> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
> email, is terrible.
>
> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in
> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>
> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
> searched the archives because I can't.
>
> It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to
> many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an aquarium
> hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some
> specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This is
> also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.
>
> I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I see
> browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey as my
> mail clients, depending on where I'm at.
>
> I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be
> significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check email,
> rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly.
>  My Android client is k9mail.
>
> Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out
> the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I have my
> own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free mail
> provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and professionals
> use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the
> truth.
>
> What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't use
> those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is
> mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio.
>  I only click on a very few threads.  In other words, my participation level
> is lower with web forums.
>
>
>
> Replies:
>
>
> Kigen wrote:
> > Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>
> That is what mail rules/filters are for.
>
>
>
>
> DarthNinja wrote:
> >
> > I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data.
> > People have to visit to check up on topics.
> > People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum
> environment.
>
> I agree.
>
>
>
> msleeper wrote:
> > Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
>
> > facepunch, and I hope you realize it.
>
> Harsh, but true.
>
> This is why I signed up for the mailing list.  I am pro network
> engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a
> year ago.  I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on
> server administration related tasks.  I did not come to discuss in-game
> content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums.
>
> That being said, let's face it:  More than half of the people on this
> (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command
> line.  Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano.  Just gotta put up
> with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile.
>
>
>
>
> Steffen Schmolinske wrote:
> > I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives & search
> > functions.
>
> Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this.  Ask them why
> they are doing that.
>
>
>
>
> Ryan Stecker wrote:
> > I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent
> > method of searching,
>
> Again, Valve is stopping you from having this.  Ask them why they are doing
> that.  Why are they t

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

It's not a "pros versus newbs" thing, it's exactly what you said - the
list isn't for a social experience. If someone wants to bitch about
how quickplay is ruining their server or about how hats have ruined
the game, then do it somewhere else. I continue to use the phrase
"relevant to server administration" because opinons on gameplay
mechanics and the like aren't.

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Jesse Molina  wrote:
>
> I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies are
> below:
>
> I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry.
>  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you
> probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search
> engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and
> that's good.  I want to talk to other people who can actually help me.  This
> mailing list is not primarily for a social experience.  For most forums, a
> significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures,
> friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are
> ad-revenue driven.  The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to
> email, is terrible.
>
> Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by
> how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in
> the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in
> discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not cry too hard if
> this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.
>
> About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my
> password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my
> welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever
> searched the archives because I can't.
>
> It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to
> many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an aquarium
> hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some
> specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is annoying.  This is
> also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while.
>
> I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I see
> browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey as my
> mail clients, depending on where I'm at.
>
> I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be
> significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check email,
> rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly.
>  My Android client is k9mail.
>
> Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out
> the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I have my
> own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free mail
> provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and professionals
> use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the
> truth.
>
> What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't use
> those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is
> mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio.
>  I only click on a very few threads.  In other words, my participation level
> is lower with web forums.
>
>
>
> Replies:
>
> Kigen wrote:
>> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.
>
> That is what mail rules/filters are for.
>
>
>
> DarthNinja wrote:
>>
>> I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data.
>> People have to visit to check up on topics.
>> People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum
>> environment.
>
> I agree.
>
>
>
> msleeper wrote:
>> Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
>> facepunch, and I hope you realize it.
>
> Harsh, but true.
>
> This is why I signed up for the mailing list.  I am pro network
> engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a
> year ago.  I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on
> server administration related tasks.  I did not come to discuss in-game
> content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums.
>
> That being said, let's face it:  More than half of the people on this
> (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command
> line.  Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano.  Just gotta put up
> with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile.
>
>
>
> Steffen Schmolinske wrote:
>> I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives & search
>> functions.
>
> Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this.  Ask them why
> they are doing that.
>
>
>
> Ryan Stecker wrote:
>> I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent
>> method of searching,
>
> Again, Valve is stopping you from having th

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Jesse Molina]

I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here.  Discussion and replies 
are below:


I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to 
entry.  Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, 
which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for 
via that search engine and failed.  Many noobs don't even know what a 
mailman list is, and that's good.  I want to talk to other people who 
can actually help me.  This mailing list is not primarily for a social 
experience.  For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated 
to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need 
the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven.  The amount 
of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible.


Here's a thought:  The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted 
by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) 
engage in the discussion.  If Valve employees were more inclined to 
participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum.  I would not 
cry too hard if this one mailing list went away.  It's just games.


About the archives:  Why are they password protected, and why has my 
password never ever worked?  From day one, the password that came in my 
welcome email didn't work and I never tried again.  I have never ever 
searched the archives because I can't.


It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed 
to many different sites and applications.  As an example, I am an 
aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because 
each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up.  This is 
annoying.  This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a 
great while.


I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well.  I 
see browsing message boards as messy business.  I use mutt and Seamonkey 
as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at.


I use my android phone to check email.  Checking a web forum would be 
significantly more difficult.  I would not do it, at all.  I check 
email, rss, and podcasts with my phone.  Web forums are iPhone/Android 
unfriendly.  My Android client is k9mail.


Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving 
out the mail address.  Use a spam filter.  I don't get spam because I 
have my own server with Spamassassin running.  If you are using a free 
mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts).  Business and 
professionals use email.  I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, 
but that's the truth.


What about a forum that sends out email update announcements?  I don't 
use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. 
This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to 
noise ratio.  I only click on a very few threads.  In other words, my 
participation level is lower with web forums.




Replies:

Kigen wrote:
> Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages.

That is what mail rules/filters are for.



DarthNinja wrote:
>
> I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data.
> People have to visit to check up on topics.
> People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum 
environment.


I agree.



msleeper wrote:
> Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as
> facepunch, and I hope you realize it.

Harsh, but true.

This is why I signed up for the mailing list.  I am pro network 
engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a 
year ago.  I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on 
server administration related tasks.  I did not come to discuss in-game 
content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums.


That being said, let's face it:  More than half of the people on this 
(linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash 
command line.  Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano.  Just 
gotta put up with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile.




Steffen Schmolinske wrote:
> I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives & search
> functions.

Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this.  Ask them 
why they are doing that.




Ryan Stecker wrote:
> I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent
> method of searching,

Again, Valve is stopping you from having this.  Ask them why they are 
doing that.  Why are they taking away from you something that you would 
otherwise have?  They have deliberately password protected the archives 
and prevent search engines from searching them.




msleeper wrote:
> the main reason the list fails
> (and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post
> crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful.
> ...
> And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling
> us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yours

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Andrew DeMerse]

Before responding, I'd first like to point out to people that are looking
for JUST announcements about updates that such a list exists. In fact, there
are 3 seperate srcds related mailing lists. All of Valve's mailing lists can
be found here;
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/

I much prefer a mailing list format. Even if it takes a little more effort
than creating a SPUF account, it's worth it. It acts as somewhat of a
filter, and consists of mostly server operators that use it for good. I'm
not sure I'd be able to stomach the SPUF user base having the ability to
post replies in every topic. The current state of the servers section of the
tf2 forums are pretty sad.

Though there are some bad or devolved threads, there has been a huge amount
of help that has come from these lists. There are some
incredibly knowledgeable people that take time out of their own days to help
and work with others to reach a resolution on a variety of issues. This is
especially helpful on patch days, when people may be sitting in front of a
console trying to troubleshoot issues, instead of on a PC where they can
browse forums. The feedback can be instantaneous, and comes from a variety
of sources, which is almost always helpful and accurate.

You can say that forums are easier to search, and look for things that have
been solved in old topics, but my experience has shown that people will
still create a new/duplicate topic, even if another one is on the same page.
There are also plenty of services out there that archive the lists
(including Valve themselves). A quick google search on a variety of 'hot'
srcds topics will usually result in one of these archives popping up with
the answer. I know it's helped me quite a few times.

So without further ranting, I'd like to close by saying that I really do
appreciate the list format, really appreciate the feedback we can get
directly from valve (especially lately), have no amount of respect for the
incredibly helpful admins on the list, and would hate to see it go.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:55 PM, David Parker  wrote:

> Hello,
>
>  The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming
> response in favor of keeping the mailing list.  This time around, the
> majority of responses seem to be from people who really want to keep this a
> mailing list, and those who would be willing to try a forum but would still
> prefer a mailing list.  The common element here (as I see it) is that most
> people seem to prefer the mailing list format.
>
> Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much
> any topic.  Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid "bump"
> posts, and misinformation posted by random people.  I work at a college, and
> I have discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea
> how to use a mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were
> compelled to for some reason.  Forums, on the other hand, can be (and
> usually are) used by just about anyone.  It is my firm belief that keeping
> this as a mailing list dramatically cuts down on the number of people
> posting, and increases the quality and topical knowledge of those who do
> post, compared to what we would get in a forum.  A forum would end up having
> every idiot script kiddy posting in it, and we would probably see a crazy
> increase in the number of off-topic posts and the sometimes not-so-polite
> pointings to other places for the information.
>
> Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class
> of people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the
> list.  Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few
> spare minutes and felt like signing up.  So... please keep this a list!
>
> - Dave
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Fletcher Dunn 
> Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list <
> hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com>, "h...@list.valvesoftware.com" <
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com>
>
> > >I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> > >people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> > >signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> > >archives, or spends hours researching.
> >
> > I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion
> > about the format of this list.
> >
> > I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list
> > to a forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is
> > this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the
> > idea.  it is my understanding that most serve

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Aaron "DJ Zyrphon" Thompson]

Although the ML spams the beJesus out of my phone I prefer it over the forums. 
I just like being able to get a message directly to me that helps keep me 
informed in regards to server upkeep. This is especially important for me 
because I run 15+ TF2 servers. :D

Sent from my MOTOBLUR™ smartphone on AT&T

-Original message-
From: David Parker 
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 

Sent: Tue, Oct 25, 2011 02:55:49 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

Hello,
 
 The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming response in 
favor of keeping the mailing list.  This time around, the majority of responses 
seem to be from people who really want to keep this a mailing list, and those 
who would be willing to try a forum but would still prefer a mailing list.  The 
common element here (as I see it) is that most people seem to prefer the 
mailing list format.

Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much any 
topic.  Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid "bump" posts, and 
misinformation posted by random people.  I work at a college, and I have 
discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea how to use a 
mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were compelled to for 
some reason.  Forums, on the other hand, can be (and usually are) used by just 
about anyone.  It is my firm belief that keeping this as a mailing list 
dramatically cuts down on the number of people posting, and increases the 
quality and topical knowledge of those who do post, compared to what we would 
get in a forum.  A forum would end up having every idiot script kiddy posting 
in it, and we would probably see a crazy increase in the number of off-topic 
posts and the sometimes not-so-polite pointings to other places for the 
information.

Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class of 
people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the list.  
Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few spare 
minutes and felt like signing up.  So... please keep this a list!

    - Dave

- Original Message -
From: Fletcher Dunn 
Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
, "h...@list.valvesoftware.com" 


> >I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >archives, or spends hours researching.
> 
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion 
> about the format of this list.
> 
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list 
> to a forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is 
> this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the 
> idea.  it is my understanding that most server admins prefer:
> 
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> 
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for 
> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and 
> many people have the opposite preference.
> 
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> 
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I 
> personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable 
> pretty much instantly, with all the >>>>'s and broken line 
> breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want 
> to clarify something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, 
> inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not 
> interested in.
> 
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would 
> satisfy what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve 
> you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks.  I 
> *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps 
> with some push notification) more convenient.
> 
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to 
> consume the information on this list.
> 
> Please chime in.
> 
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
> 
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list 
> archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://li

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[clad iron]

i like the mailing list my self, but as an alternative i'd say something
like what byteframe was talking about with the google groups.


On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Andrew  wrote:

> I'll throw in a vote for the mailing list format as well. Half for the
> instant notifications and easy reading, and half admittedly because
> I'm a bit old-fashioned.
>
> The google groups style option, however, might be a great compromise.
> --
> Andrew (Wave Admin)
> The Wave!
> 24/7 CTF
> 1/2 respawn times
> http://thewaveserver.com
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[David Parker]

Hello,
 
 The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming response in 
favor of keeping the mailing list.  This time around, the majority of responses 
seem to be from people who really want to keep this a mailing list, and those 
who would be willing to try a forum but would still prefer a mailing list.  The 
common element here (as I see it) is that most people seem to prefer the 
mailing list format.

Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much any 
topic.  Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid "bump" posts, and 
misinformation posted by random people.  I work at a college, and I have 
discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea how to use a 
mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were compelled to for 
some reason.  Forums, on the other hand, can be (and usually are) used by just 
about anyone.  It is my firm belief that keeping this as a mailing list 
dramatically cuts down on the number of people posting, and increases the 
quality and topical knowledge of those who do post, compared to what we would 
get in a forum.  A forum would end up having every idiot script kiddy posting 
in it, and we would probably see a crazy increase in the number of off-topic 
posts and the sometimes not-so-polite pointings to other places for the 
information.

Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class of 
people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the list.  
Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few spare 
minutes and felt like signing up.  So... please keep this a list!

    - Dave

- Original Message -
From: Fletcher Dunn 
Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
, "h...@list.valvesoftware.com" 


> >I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >archives, or spends hours researching.
> 
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion 
> about the format of this list.
> 
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list 
> to a forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is 
> this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the 
> idea.  it is my understanding that most server admins prefer:
> 
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
> 
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for 
> announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and 
> many people have the opposite preference.
> 
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
> 
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I 
> personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable 
> pretty much instantly, with all the >>>>'s and broken line 
> breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want 
> to clarify something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, 
> inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not 
> interested in.
> 
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would 
> satisfy what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve 
> you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks.  I 
> *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps 
> with some push notification) more convenient.
> 
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to 
> consume the information on this list.
> 
> Please chime in.
> 
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
> 
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list 
> archives, please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Andrew]

I'll throw in a vote for the mailing list format as well. Half for the
instant notifications and easy reading, and half admittedly because
I'm a bit old-fashioned.

The google groups style option, however, might be a great compromise.
-- 
Andrew (Wave Admin)
The Wave!
24/7 CTF
1/2 respawn times
http://thewaveserver.com

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Jesse Porter]

I still prefer email list, Fletch. I prioritize email from valve employees
first, but have found some utility in general posting from others. The
farther away from server maintenance and updates the discussion get, the
less interest I have (recent discussion on classes, etc).

Honestly, I think we'd all be better off for keeping your post and civility
and tone in mind and go from there. Mail clients can filter out noise as I
(we) define it, so there's no need to crab at somebody -- just filter that
person out if he bugs you so much.
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Necavi]

I almost think that having Valve require that a SteamID must be associated
with the email would be a good option to help with the spam (what you're
saying becomes associated directly with you and excessive trolling and
complaining could be dealt with swiftly and easily) but at the same time,
this means more work for valve, a company which is providing a free service
in this mailing list, a very valuable one for the most part.

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 18:39
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

Going off what Jeff Sugar just said in the thread that started this,
and reiterating what I said earlier - the main reason the list fails
(and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post
crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful. That's
great that some of you don't like quickplay or don't use quickplay -
telling us on the list is helpful to no one and wastes space. You can
replace "quickplay" with just about anything, and 10 times out of 10
it is brought up, there is always people posting about how they don't
use it, don't care about it, or don't need it.

And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling
us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yourselves, and maybe
there wouldn't be a "problem" in the first place.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kyle Sanderson  wrote:
> What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum
> would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my
opinion.
>
> Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists
would
> drop significantly.
> Kyle.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick
wrote:
>
>> On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:
>>
>>> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I
meant
>>> by "push notification".)
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From:
hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com[mailto:
>>>
hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
>>> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had
>>> to
>>> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
>>> stone age.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>>> From: Fletcher Dunn
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
>>> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>>  I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>> archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>>
>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>>> format of this list.
>>>
>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>>> forum
>>> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
>>> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that
most
>>> server admins prefer:
>>>
>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>>
>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>>> announcements),
>>> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
>>> opposite
>>> preference.
>>>
>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>>
>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>>> email
>>> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all
the
>>>  >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
>>> everywhere.)
>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to
clarify
>>> something, rather than making a new post.

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[msleeper]

Going off what Jeff Sugar just said in the thread that started this,
and reiterating what I said earlier - the main reason the list fails
(and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post
crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful. That's
great that some of you don't like quickplay or don't use quickplay -
telling us on the list is helpful to no one and wastes space. You can
replace "quickplay" with just about anything, and 10 times out of 10
it is brought up, there is always people posting about how they don't
use it, don't care about it, or don't need it.

And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling
us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yourselves, and maybe
there wouldn't be a "problem" in the first place.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kyle Sanderson  wrote:
> What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum
> would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my opinion.
>
> Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists would
> drop significantly.
> Kyle.
>
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick wrote:
>
>> On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:
>>
>>> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant
>>> by "push notification".)
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: 
>>> hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com[mailto:
>>> hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
>>> On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
>>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
>>> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had
>>> to
>>> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
>>> stone age.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>>> From: Fletcher Dunn
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
>>> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>>
>>>  I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>>> archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>>
>>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>>> format of this list.
>>>
>>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>>> forum
>>> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
>>> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
>>> server admins prefer:
>>>
>>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>>
>>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>>> announcements),
>>> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
>>> opposite
>>> preference.
>>>
>>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>>
>>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>>> email
>>> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
>>>  >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
>>> everywhere.)
>>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
>>> something, rather than making a new post.
>>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
>>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>>
>>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
>>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
>>> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
>>> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>>
>>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
>>> the
>>> info

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Jeff Sugar]

Very much agreed. Perhaps for  registered emails, a reply could make a new
post? That might be a pipe dream, bit its an idea.

For the time being, if anybody wants it, I set mself up a catch-all gmail
filter that takes any hlds emails and labels 'em. Then, if it's an update
announcement or reply to one, it is marked as important. Otherwise, it skips
the inbox and goes to said hlds label.
On Oct 24, 2011 6:22 PM, "Ronny Schedel"  wrote:

> If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like
> messages that just say "There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this
> link to read it".
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant
> by "push notification".)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
> hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com[mailto:
> hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
> On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to
> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
> stone age.
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
>  I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>> archives, or spends hours researching.
>>
>
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
> format of this list.
>
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum
> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
> server admins prefer:
>
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
> opposite
> preference.
>
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> email
> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
>
>> 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
>>>>>
>>>> everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
> something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
> the
> information on this list.
>
> Please chime in.
>
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Kyle Sanderson]

What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum
would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my opinion.

Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists would
drop significantly.
Kyle.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick wrote:

> On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:
>
>> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant
>> by "push notification".)
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 
>> hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com[mailto:
>> hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
>> On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
>> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>
>> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
>> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had
>> to
>> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
>> stone age.
>>
>>
>> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
>> From: Fletcher Dunn
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
>> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>>
>>  I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>>> archives, or spends hours researching.
>>>
>> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
>> format of this list.
>>
>> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a
>> forum
>> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
>> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
>> server admins prefer:
>>
>> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
>> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>>
>> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for
>> announcements),
>> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
>> opposite
>> preference.
>>
>> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>>
>> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
>> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
>> email
>> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
>>  >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
>> everywhere.)
>> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
>> something, rather than making a new post.
>> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
>> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
>> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>>
>> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
>> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
>> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
>> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>>
>> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
>> the
>> information on this list.
>>
>> Please chime in.
>>
>> Your humble servant,
>> - Fletch
>>
>
> The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If the
> admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander in and
> 'contribute' to threads. For a mailing list you must know it exists, sign
> up, and then wait to get the relevant emails and converse that way. I know
> its not exactly a experts-only thing. But, especially with a gamer community
> that necessarily has its fair share of teenagers and the like, keeping the
> list 'out of the way' definitely cuts way down on the noise, and makes it
> much more possible for valve employees to comment and get feedback that
> would be lost otherwise.
>
> Another thing to consider is the method of delivery - with hlds the emails
> come into a folder in our inboxes, and valve's inboxes. People, even off the
> list, can be CC'd directly on relevant threads. With a forum, everyone would
> need to actively go check it every day - something they might not be
> inclined to otherwise do - and PMing valve employees on the forums with "Hey
> l

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Steven Sumichrast]

I for one am completly opposed to moving this to a forum.  The exception
would be similar to msleeper's suggestions on Google groups.  The
functionality should be mailing list first, forum second.  I appreciate the
way Google has handled it, where the mailing list can continue to function
like a mailing list.  Those who prefer the forum style can still participate
as a forum on the site -- but there's no functionality lost for the mailing
list individuals.

I don't see a reason for the list to be changed.  If you don't like the spam
from certain topics, and your mail client doesn't have a way to ignore a
conversation, get a better mail client.  For me, when a topic comes across
the list serve that I have no interest in, a simple Gmail mute removes all
that clutter from my inbox.  However all still searchable.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Ronny Schedel wrote:

> If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like
> messages that just say "There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this
> link to read it".
>
>
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM
>
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant
> by "push notification".)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
> hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.com[mailto:
> hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.com]
> On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to
> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
> stone age.
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
>  I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>> people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>> signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>> archives, or spends hours researching.
>>
>
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
> format of this list.
>
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum
> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
> server admins prefer:
>
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
> opposite
> preference.
>
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> email
> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
>
>>  's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
>>>>>
>>>> everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
> something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
> the
> information on this list.
>
> Please chime in.
>
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux<http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux>
>
>
> __**_
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, 

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Ravnox]

I really prefer this list. I subscribe to multiple list and it allows  
me to get my news in one place, my mail client. I have multiple  
folders and filter to manage everything neatly. (I use claws-mail)  
There is no way I could keep up with all the lists I'm subscribed to  
if they were all in a forum format.


I think this list is pretty clean for the most part. There's a few  
topics that could remain outside of it but the same would happen on a  
forum. With lists, I can easily catch up on different group and reply  
quickly if I think I can help someone. With forums, I have to be on  
the forum, which I usually don't do unless I have an actual problem. I  
think it's just easier to quickly help each other this way.


Maybe a central wiki dedicated to server administrators with  
documentation on settings, installation procedure, known bugs, plugins  
and so on would be more useful. (Unless such a thing was created  
between the last time I checked and now) I remember how much trial and  
error it was to run those L4D servers when the game came out,  
documentation would have made a huge difference! And it would give us  
an easy way to link to known answers to questions.


--
Ravnox


Quoting Fletcher Dunn :

I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about  
 the format of this list.


I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to   
a forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true  
 today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my   
understanding that most server admins prefer:


1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for   
announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many   
people have the opposite preference.


A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find   
any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much   
instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that   
everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to   
clarify something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude,   
inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.

5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would   
satisfy what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys,   
so I'm curious what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys  
 would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification)  
more  convenient.


It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to   
consume the information on this list.


Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch





___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[John Schoenick]

On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:

What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant by "push 
notification".)

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to
check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
stone age.


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
From: Fletcher Dunn
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
h...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list


I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.

I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
format of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum
was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
server admins prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
  >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.

It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the
information on this list.

Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch


The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If 
the admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander 
in and 'contribute' to threads. For a mailing list you must know it 
exists, sign up, and then wait to get the relevant emails and converse 
that way. I know its not exactly a experts-only thing. But, especially 
with a gamer community that necessarily has its fair share of teenagers 
and the like, keeping the list 'out of the way' definitely cuts way down 
on the noise, and makes it much more possible for valve employees to 
comment and get feedback that would be lost otherwise.


Another thing to consider is the method of delivery - with hlds the 
emails come into a folder in our inboxes, and valve's inboxes. People, 
even off the list, can be CC'd directly on relevant threads. With a 
forum, everyone would need to actively go check it every day - something 
they might not be inclined to otherwise do - and PMing valve employees 
on the forums with "Hey look at this thread!" is not a good solution.


What really needs to be done is to modify mailman server a little bit to 
register users by steam-account-that-owns-a-game so they can more easily 
kick people off the list that are not contributing. Treat it like a 
privilege, rather than a right, and rather aggressively remove people 
who are on here to do things that arn't helpful discussion of server 
moderation.


- Neph

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Ronny Schedel]

If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like 
messages that just say "There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this 
link to read it".




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- 
From: Fletcher Dunn

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; 
h...@list.valvesoftware.com

Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant by 
"push notification".)


-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny 
Schedel

Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to
check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
stone age.


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- 
From: Fletcher Dunn

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
h...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list


I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.


I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
format of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum
was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
server admins prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the

's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put

everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.

It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the
information on this list.

Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:

http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux 



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Steffen Schmolinske]

I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives & search 
functions.


People who want only emails, they can subscribe to all the boards and get 
notified upon replies/topics - and those who don't... well, they just read 
the forums.



- Original Message - 
From: "Fletcher Dunn" 
To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list" 
; 

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:34 AM
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list



>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when

people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.


I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the 
format of this list.


I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a 
forum was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) 
the users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that 
most server admins prefer:


1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for 
announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people 
have the opposite preference.


A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any 
email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with 
all the >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and 
put everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.

5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy 
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious 
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum 
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.


It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume 
the information on this list.


Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux 



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[coffee problem]

Yes, but problems like "When is Valve going to do something about fake
clients stealing gamer names/images in the name of padding server stats?"
goes completely ignored in the forums. At least we know when it goes to the
list you guys have actually read it.

Speaking of which, why is the Halloween event so protected while there are
many hundreds of registered servers running these misleading bot plugins and
devaluing the whole community for over a year now with not a peep from
Valve?

-CP

On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> >I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >archives, or spends hours researching.
> -snip-
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[brendan halley]

That is what is happening now. The only difference would be easier access to
the archives. So perhaps better formatting of the current archives would be
a better road to take?
On Oct 25, 2011 11:42 AM, "Fletcher Dunn" 
wrote:

> What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant
> by "push notification".)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check
> important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to
> check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to
> stone age.
>
>
> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> From: Fletcher Dunn
> Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ;
> h...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
>
> >I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
> >people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
> >signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
> >archives, or spends hours researching.
>
> I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the
> format of this list.
>
> I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum
> was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the
> users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most
> server admins prefer:
>
> 1.) Receiving push notifications.
> 2.) Viewing the list in their email client
>
> #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements),
> while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the
> opposite
> preference.
>
> A forum has several compelling advantages:
>
> 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
> 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any
> email
> distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the
>  >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put
> everywhere.)
> 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify
> something, rather than making a new post.
> 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate,
> belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
> 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.
>
> Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy
> what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious
> what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum
> format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.
>
> It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume
> the
> information on this list.
>
> Please chime in.
>
> Your humble servant,
> - Fletch
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
>
___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Fletcher Dunn]

What if you got an email when there was a new post?  (That's what I meant by 
"push notification".)

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check 
important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to 
check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to 
stone age.


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- 
From: Fletcher Dunn
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; 
h...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>archives, or spends hours researching.

I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the 
format of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum 
was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the 
users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most 
server admins prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email 
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 
 >>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put 
everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy 
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious 
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum 
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.

It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
information on this list.

Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux 


___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Ronny Schedel]

Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check 
important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to 
check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to 
stone age.



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- 
From: Fletcher Dunn

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; 
h...@list.valvesoftware.com

Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list


I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
archives, or spends hours researching.


I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the 
format of this list.


I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum 
was kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the 
users of the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most 
server admins prefer:


1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
preference.


A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email 
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 
>>>>'s and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put 
everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.

5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy 
what everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious 
what everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum 
format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.


It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
information on this list.


Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
please visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux 



___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux

[hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list

[Fletcher Dunn]

>I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when
>people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone
>signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the
>archives, or spends hours researching.

I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format 
of this list.

I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was 
kicked around.  However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of 
the list didn't like the idea.  it is my understanding that most server admins 
prefer:

1.) Receiving push notifications.
2.) Viewing the list in their email client

#1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), 
while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite 
preference.

A forum has several compelling advantages:

1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions
2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation.  (I personally find any email 
distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 
's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.)
3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify 
something, rather than making a new post.
4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, 
belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc.
5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in.

Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what 
everybody wants?  This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what 
everything thinks.  I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format 
(perhaps with some push notification) more convenient.

It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the 
information on this list.

Please chime in.

Your humble servant,
- Fletch

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux