Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, E3pO wrote: I personally think they need to make a bug zilla type thing that people can commit bugs to and then have a dev blog that people can rss to check for upcoming updates or questions. Then people can comment to the blog post. Keep the existing mailing list but also run a forum powered by the mailing list.. if someone posts a new thread it will also mail to the list. If someone replies by email or on the forum it will br sent to both the list and the forum.. So what you are saying is that you want valve to install a webmail client? An even better sollution than your suggestion would be to use a private usenet/news system instead of a mailinglist. And install a webfrontend for usenet on valves servers. Most of the mail clients can connect to usenet and there are also dedicated software out there in the world. Usenet already have functions for tree structured read. Thats better than most forums today. It also have a better overview on which threads are read or not. At least on a mail or usenet client. If done properly. They should be able to remove the forum and mailing list alltogeter. And only use usenet. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Better archiving is good, I don't think the archives are public either (other than the unofficial scraping forums), which they should be. Happened more than once that i show fellow admins something from this mailing list, and a open archive would let them follow the discussion. I'm happy with keeping the mailing list around. Though I admit it's a little hidden away, easy to overlook as a new admin. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.comwrote: There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list. Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it looks like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another alternative that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our while to migrate. Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we could look into. I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up this topic again. :) Cheers, Fletch -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Agreed. This plan seems like it'd do some good. Perhaps a link could be in each email at the start or end with a link to it on the archive? That'd make it easier for people to read any posts in that thread they missed, especially newcomers On Oct 25, 2011 12:07 AM, Emil Larsson ail...@gmail.com wrote: Better archiving is good, I don't think the archives are public either (other than the unofficial scraping forums), which they should be. Happened more than once that i show fellow admins something from this mailing list, and a open archive would let them follow the discussion. I'm happy with keeping the mailing list around. Though I admit it's a little hidden away, easy to overlook as a new admin. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 7:21 AM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.comwrote: There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list. Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it looks like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another alternative that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our while to migrate. Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we could look into. I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up this topic again. :) Cheers, Fletch -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
It would probably be somewhat difficult, but would a hybrid approach be possible? For example, make a subforum on the steam forums which mirrors all emails sent to this list, and pushes all posts made by logged-in forum users back to this list? It would make this list searchable, people could still read and reply in their favorite news client, and the current people on the list could filter forum-list if they wanted to. On 10/24/2011 8:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a forum (ease of use being one of them) But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there. Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push alerts (with full reply for ease of use?) On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy. :D Just got a coding idea. We'll see where it goes. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers riem...@binkey.nl wrote: I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a forum (ease of use being one of them) But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there. Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push alerts (with full reply for ease of use?) On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Forum = moderation. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Kigen theki...@gmail.com wrote: I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy. :D Just got a coding idea. We'll see where it goes. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers riem...@binkey.nl wrote: I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a forum (ease of use being one of them) But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there. Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push alerts (with full reply for ease of use?) On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty,
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
So... I'm for having a forum. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:59 AM, James Puckett jamesrichardpuck...@gmail.com wrote: Forum = moderation. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Kigen theki...@gmail.com wrote: I think I can fix our forum vs email problem with both sides being happy. :D Just got a coding idea. We'll see where it goes. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Eric Riemers riem...@binkey.nl wrote: I prefer the mailinglist, tons of reasons why i would want that more then a forum (ease of use being one of them) But if we *have* to move to the forums, at least make it so that we have our own section only for server maintainers, say for instance only people with a registered server with good standings is allowed to post there. Granted it might not be bullit proof but it might keep at least 90% of the non-relevant forum people out there. And ofcourse, assuming this has push alerts (with full reply for ease of use?) On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:03:08 +0300, ics i...@ics-base.net wrote: I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications.
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
A Google Group might be good because it can be used as mailman serv with a nice visual frontend and archive. People who like this current format could keep using it or people who are for forums could opt out of email updates and just browse through the frontend. Everything would be much easier to find and it could also host as file repositories for admin resources or a dedicated place to upload crash dumps. Beyond that I actually wish this list had more actual discussion in it. There a few people on the list that treat it like a glorified newsletter from valve and if anyone starts a thread other than a valve dev or replies with something they personally believe has been clarified already or is not relevant they become very aggressive and attack the person. Oddly enough they are also the fist people to complain about getting spammed by the list and the ones that generally break all threaded email clients with broken spam. If you don't have anything constructive to say then just dont say anything and if you really think the extra 20 emails a day is a problem then switch to digest mode so you only get one email each day. ~Michael ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I'm not reading through all the responses, since it would be better served on a forum. I am a member on this list to receive the announcement of updates (or as of lately, the pre-announcements, the update of you must have your server registered). If this list is to be preserved, I would like an announcements only list where I can receive the notices without the discussions. Ryan Alyea r...@fangamer.com On Oct 24, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. ~Michael ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama k...@pvp.se wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I'm casting my vote for the Mailing Group. It's nice to be able to check my phone for a new message and see if I have to hit my emergency UPDATE SERVER button. Forums that email me could do about the same thing, but there isn't anything wrong with the current mailing list as it stands right now. And for those who say they don't like the amount of spam that gets sent to your inbox (read spam as: messages not pertaining to your servers/games), you really should check out setting up filters to have these message avoid your inbox unless it's a certain keyword or comes from a Valve worker themselves. If you do go the forum route could you set it up where we can still respond via email or will we have to log into the forums? I'm pretty sure not every admin services their box with a smartphone and ssh client but most times I'm on the road and so this is my best option - if I have to load up a web-browser and then log in just to post a crash report, I will be less inclined to participate in any discussions - which might be a good thing? Either way is fine, maybe it's just nostalgia but Mailing Groups are pretty neato and helpful still. Especially for something like this. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 1:46 PM, kama k...@pvp.se wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu robl...@gmail.com wrote: I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama k...@pvp.se wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
There are a few (probably very few, but we exist) people that need to monitor the list, and are perfectly capable of posting relevant replies, that don't run servers. The current system is fine, people that are being acidic to the quality of the list just need to be removed. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:32 PM, msleeper mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com wrote: Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu robl...@gmail.com wrote: I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama k...@pvp.se wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
That's probably true, but I don't think a system should be setup to cater to the minority. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Asher Baker asher...@gmail.com wrote: There are a few (probably very few, but we exist) people that need to monitor the list, and are perfectly capable of posting relevant replies, that don't run servers. The current system is fine, people that are being acidic to the quality of the list just need to be removed. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 11:32 PM, msleeper mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com wrote: Unless they do something like requiring a server token ID when signing up for the list, there's no possible way for them to enforce this. It would be great if they did/could, but it would never happen. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rob Liu robl...@gmail.com wrote: I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 9:46 AM, kama k...@pvp.se wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Michael wrote: There actually is a [hlds_announce] list for just that propose but its fallen out of use I don't believe I've seen anything sent on it in over a month now. Last message was only a couple of days ago. Oct 21 Tony Paloma [hlds_announce] Team Fortress 2 Update Released Since I am responding I can let my vote be on the mailing list. Forums are bound to fail with all the noise that resides within them. Mailinglists with filters are easier to handle. And as some have told before. All different mailinglists are gathered on one spot instead of scattered over the internet, which means that there is an easier way to keep up with the information. I believe I am currently following aprox 30 mailinglists, all followed withing one site. /Bjorn ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I am going to drag this thread on a little more. There have been quite a few replies regarding two subjects: 1.) The opinion that the list/forum should be locked down somehow, based on a valid steam ID, or a server ID, etc. 2.) That the communications on the list should be limited to server operations or limited to server operators. The common factor to both is that it seems like we are objecting to some of the content on the mailing list as being irrelevant or off-topic. I really don't have a non-obvious suggestion for how to improve this here on the mailing list. But, I can point out to all of us the alternative: http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45 For those of you who like forums, there it is. =) Of the twenty threads on the front page, minus the stickies, my opinion tells me they all fell into the following categories and percentiles: 20% Unix 101 20% Computer basics 101 20% I can't read the FAQs, can't google it, can't spell, PLEASE HELP ME! 20% I'm doing something bat-shit crazy, PLEASE HELP ME! 10% Off-topic 10% Legit questions Note that I'm only looking at the Linux forums. I don't read the Windows forums because they are even worse. Some of the more humorous/stupid ones: The six year old thread bump; http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292724 The guy who named his map file '$2000$'; http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195589 Some guy has mp3 files and replays confused; http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2177640 This guy wants wants more pointy clicky in his life; http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2165489 Rob Liu wrote: I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? -- # Jesse Molina # Mail = je...@opendreams.net # Page = page-je...@opendreams.net # Cell = 1.602.323.7608 # Web = http://www.opendreams.net/jesse/ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I personally think they need to make a bug zilla type thing that people can commit bugs to and then have a dev blog that people can rss to check for upcoming updates or questions. Then people can comment to the blog post. Keep the existing mailing list but also run a forum powered by the mailing list.. if someone posts a new thread it will also mail to the list. If someone replies by email or on the forum it will br sent to both the list and the forum.. On Oct 25, 2011 11:40 PM, Jesse Molina je...@opendreams.net wrote: I am going to drag this thread on a little more. There have been quite a few replies regarding two subjects: 1.) The opinion that the list/forum should be locked down somehow, based on a valid steam ID, or a server ID, etc. 2.) That the communications on the list should be limited to server operations or limited to server operators. The common factor to both is that it seems like we are objecting to some of the content on the mailing list as being irrelevant or off-topic. I really don't have a non-obvious suggestion for how to improve this here on the mailing list. But, I can point out to all of us the alternative: http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=**45http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=45 For those of you who like forums, there it is. =) Of the twenty threads on the front page, minus the stickies, my opinion tells me they all fell into the following categories and percentiles: 20% Unix 101 20% Computer basics 101 20% I can't read the FAQs, can't google it, can't spell, PLEASE HELP ME! 20% I'm doing something bat-shit crazy, PLEASE HELP ME! 10% Off-topic 10% Legit questions Note that I'm only looking at the Linux forums. I don't read the Windows forums because they are even worse. Some of the more humorous/stupid ones: The six year old thread bump; http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**292724http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=292724 The guy who named his map file '$2000$'; http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2195589http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195589 Some guy has mp3 files and replays confused; http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2177640http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2177640 This guy wants wants more pointy clicky in his life; http://forums.steampowered.**com/forums/showthread.php?t=**2165489http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2165489 Rob Liu wrote: I have another suggestion. Maybe limit the mailing list to server operators only? -- # Jesse Molina # Mail = je...@opendreams.net # Page = page-je...@opendreams.net # Cell = 1.602.323.7608 # Web = http://www.opendreams.net/**jesse/http://www.opendreams.net/jesse/ __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
That is what is happening now. The only difference would be easier access to the archives. So perhaps better formatting of the current archives would be a better road to take? On Oct 25, 2011 11:42 AM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com wrote: What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Yes, but problems like When is Valve going to do something about fake clients stealing gamer names/images in the name of padding server stats? goes completely ignored in the forums. At least we know when it goes to the list you guys have actually read it. Speaking of which, why is the Halloween event so protected while there are many hundreds of registered servers running these misleading bot plugins and devaluing the whole community for over a year now with not a peep from Valve? -CP On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.comwrote: I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. -snip- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives search functions. People who want only emails, they can subscribe to all the boards and get notified upon replies/topics - and those who don't... well, they just read the forums. - Original Message - From: Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 2:34 AM Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like messages that just say There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this link to read it. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If the admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander in and 'contribute' to threads. For a mailing list you must know it exists, sign up, and then wait to get the relevant emails and converse that way. I know its not exactly a experts-only thing. But, especially with a gamer community that necessarily has its fair share of teenagers and the like, keeping the list 'out of the way' definitely cuts way down on the noise, and makes it much more possible for valve employees to comment and get feedback that would be lost otherwise. Another thing to consider is the method of delivery - with hlds the emails come into a folder in our inboxes, and valve's inboxes. People, even off the list, can be CC'd directly on relevant threads. With a forum, everyone would need to actively go check it every day - something they might not be inclined to otherwise do - and PMing valve employees on the forums with Hey look at this thread! is not a good solution. What really needs to be done is to modify mailman server a little bit to register users by steam-account-that-owns-a-game so they can more easily kick people off the list that are not contributing. Treat it like a privilege, rather than a right, and rather aggressively remove people who are on here to do things that arn't helpful discussion of server moderation. - Neph ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I really prefer this list. I subscribe to multiple list and it allows me to get my news in one place, my mail client. I have multiple folders and filter to manage everything neatly. (I use claws-mail) There is no way I could keep up with all the lists I'm subscribed to if they were all in a forum format. I think this list is pretty clean for the most part. There's a few topics that could remain outside of it but the same would happen on a forum. With lists, I can easily catch up on different group and reply quickly if I think I can help someone. With forums, I have to be on the forum, which I usually don't do unless I have an actual problem. I think it's just easier to quickly help each other this way. Maybe a central wiki dedicated to server administrators with documentation on settings, installation procedure, known bugs, plugins and so on would be more useful. (Unless such a thing was created between the last time I checked and now) I remember how much trial and error it was to run those L4D servers when the game came out, documentation would have made a huge difference! And it would give us an easy way to link to known answers to questions. -- Ravnox Quoting Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com: I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I for one am completly opposed to moving this to a forum. The exception would be similar to msleeper's suggestions on Google groups. The functionality should be mailing list first, forum second. I appreciate the way Google has handled it, where the mailing list can continue to function like a mailing list. Those who prefer the forum style can still participate as a forum on the site -- but there's no functionality lost for the mailing list individuals. I don't see a reason for the list to be changed. If you don't like the spam from certain topics, and your mail client doesn't have a way to ignore a conversation, get a better mail client. For me, when a topic comes across the list serve that I have no interest in, a simple Gmail mute removes all that clutter from my inbox. However all still searchable. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Ronny Schedel i...@ronny-schedel.dewrote: If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like messages that just say There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this link to read it. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com[mailto: hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my opinion. Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists would drop significantly. Kyle. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick nephy...@doublezen.netwrote: On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com[mailto: hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If the admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander in and 'contribute' to threads. For a mailing list you must know it exists, sign up, and then wait to get the relevant emails and converse that way. I know its not exactly a experts-only thing. But, especially with a gamer community that necessarily has its fair share of teenagers and the like, keeping the list 'out of the way' definitely cuts way down on the noise, and makes it much more possible for valve employees to comment and get feedback that would be lost otherwise. Another thing to consider is the method of delivery - with hlds the emails come into a folder in our inboxes, and valve's inboxes. People, even off the list, can be CC'd directly on relevant threads. With a forum, everyone would need to actively go check it every day - something they might not be inclined to otherwise do - and PMing valve employees on the forums with Hey look at this thread! is not a good solution. What really needs to be done is to modify mailman server a little bit to register users by steam-account-that-owns-a-game so they can more easily kick people off the list that are not contributing. Treat it like a privilege, rather than a right, and rather aggressively remove people who are on here to do things that arn't helpful discussion of server moderation. - Neph __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Very much agreed. Perhaps for registered emails, a reply could make a new post? That might be a pipe dream, bit its an idea. For the time being, if anybody wants it, I set mself up a catch-all gmail filter that takes any hlds emails and labels 'em. Then, if it's an update announcement or reply to one, it is marked as important. Otherwise, it skips the inbox and goes to said hlds label. On Oct 24, 2011 6:22 PM, Ronny Schedel i...@ronny-schedel.de wrote: If I receive the full message like now, it's not a problem. I don't like messages that just say There is a new entry in topic blabla, click this link to read it. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:42 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com[mailto: hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux __**_ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/**mailman/listinfo/hlds_linuxhttp://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Going off what Jeff Sugar just said in the thread that started this, and reiterating what I said earlier - the main reason the list fails (and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful. That's great that some of you don't like quickplay or don't use quickplay - telling us on the list is helpful to no one and wastes space. You can replace quickplay with just about anything, and 10 times out of 10 it is brought up, there is always people posting about how they don't use it, don't care about it, or don't need it. And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yourselves, and maybe there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kyle Sanderson kyle.l...@gmail.com wrote: What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my opinion. Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists would drop significantly. Kyle. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick nephy...@doublezen.netwrote: On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com[mailto: hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If the admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander in and 'contribute' to threads. For a mailing list you must know it exists, sign up, and then wait to get the relevant emails and converse that way. I know its not exactly a experts-only thing. But, especially with a gamer community that necessarily has its fair share of teenagers and the like, keeping the list 'out of the way' definitely cuts way down on the noise, and makes it much more possible for valve employees to comment and get feedback that would be lost otherwise. Another thing to consider is the method of delivery - with hlds the emails come into a folder in our inboxes, and valve's inboxes. People, even off the list, can be CC'd directly on relevant threads. With a forum, everyone
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I almost think that having Valve require that a SteamID must be associated with the email would be a good option to help with the spam (what you're saying becomes associated directly with you and excessive trolling and complaining could be dealt with swiftly and easily) but at the same time, this means more work for valve, a company which is providing a free service in this mailing list, a very valuable one for the most part. -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 18:39 To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Going off what Jeff Sugar just said in the thread that started this, and reiterating what I said earlier - the main reason the list fails (and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful. That's great that some of you don't like quickplay or don't use quickplay - telling us on the list is helpful to no one and wastes space. You can replace quickplay with just about anything, and 10 times out of 10 it is brought up, there is always people posting about how they don't use it, don't care about it, or don't need it. And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yourselves, and maybe there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kyle Sanderson kyle.l...@gmail.com wrote: What a great idea. Ditching the mailing list and replacing it with a forum would be a complete mistake in my opinion. Then again, it's just my opinion. Removing inactive members would be kind of rough, the SnR on the lists would drop significantly. Kyle. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, John Schoenick nephy...@doublezen.netwrote: On 10/24/2011 05:42 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: What if you got an email when there was a new post? (That's what I meant by push notification.) -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-bounces@list.**valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-bounces@list.valvesof tware.com[mailto: hlds_linux-bounces@**list.valvesoftware.comhlds_linux-bounces@list.valvesof tware.com] On Behalf Of Ronny Schedel Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:41 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Never ever change this to a forum. I prefer to have one place to check important things, so I have added several mailing lists. Otherwise I had to check every forum on the planet to get the informations, that's back to stone age. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- From: Fletcher Dunn Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 8:34 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list ; h...@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch The problem with forums vs a mailing list is the barrier to entry. If the admin discussion occurred on SPUF, any bored SPUF user could wander
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I still prefer email list, Fletch. I prioritize email from valve employees first, but have found some utility in general posting from others. The farther away from server maintenance and updates the discussion get, the less interest I have (recent discussion on classes, etc). Honestly, I think we'd all be better off for keeping your post and civility and tone in mind and go from there. Mail clients can filter out noise as I (we) define it, so there's no need to crab at somebody -- just filter that person out if he bugs you so much. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I'll throw in a vote for the mailing list format as well. Half for the instant notifications and easy reading, and half admittedly because I'm a bit old-fashioned. The google groups style option, however, might be a great compromise. -- Andrew (Wave Admin) The Wave! 24/7 CTF 1/2 respawn times http://thewaveserver.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Hello, The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming response in favor of keeping the mailing list. This time around, the majority of responses seem to be from people who really want to keep this a mailing list, and those who would be willing to try a forum but would still prefer a mailing list. The common element here (as I see it) is that most people seem to prefer the mailing list format. Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much any topic. Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid bump posts, and misinformation posted by random people. I work at a college, and I have discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea how to use a mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were compelled to for some reason. Forums, on the other hand, can be (and usually are) used by just about anyone. It is my firm belief that keeping this as a mailing list dramatically cuts down on the number of people posting, and increases the quality and topical knowledge of those who do post, compared to what we would get in a forum. A forum would end up having every idiot script kiddy posting in it, and we would probably see a crazy increase in the number of off-topic posts and the sometimes not-so-polite pointings to other places for the information. Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class of people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the list. Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few spare minutes and felt like signing up. So... please keep this a list! - Dave - Original Message - From: Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com, h...@list.valvesoftware.com h...@list.valvesoftware.com I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
i like the mailing list my self, but as an alternative i'd say something like what byteframe was talking about with the google groups. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:34 PM, Andrew thew...@thewaveserver.com wrote: I'll throw in a vote for the mailing list format as well. Half for the instant notifications and easy reading, and half admittedly because I'm a bit old-fashioned. The google groups style option, however, might be a great compromise. -- Andrew (Wave Admin) The Wave! 24/7 CTF 1/2 respawn times http://thewaveserver.com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Although the ML spams the beJesus out of my phone I prefer it over the forums. I just like being able to get a message directly to me that helps keep me informed in regards to server upkeep. This is especially important for me because I run 15+ TF2 servers. :D Sent from my MOTOBLUR™ smartphone on ATT -Original message- From: David Parker dpar...@utica.edu To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tue, Oct 25, 2011 02:55:49 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list Hello, The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming response in favor of keeping the mailing list. This time around, the majority of responses seem to be from people who really want to keep this a mailing list, and those who would be willing to try a forum but would still prefer a mailing list. The common element here (as I see it) is that most people seem to prefer the mailing list format. Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much any topic. Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid bump posts, and misinformation posted by random people. I work at a college, and I have discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea how to use a mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were compelled to for some reason. Forums, on the other hand, can be (and usually are) used by just about anyone. It is my firm belief that keeping this as a mailing list dramatically cuts down on the number of people posting, and increases the quality and topical knowledge of those who do post, compared to what we would get in a forum. A forum would end up having every idiot script kiddy posting in it, and we would probably see a crazy increase in the number of off-topic posts and the sometimes not-so-polite pointings to other places for the information. Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class of people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the list. Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few spare minutes and felt like signing up. So... please keep this a list! - Dave - Original Message - From: Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com, h...@list.valvesoftware.com h...@list.valvesoftware.com I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling advantages: 1.) Easier to search and find answers to previously asked questions 2.) Easier to follow a thread of conversation. (I personally find any email distribution list to become unreadable pretty much instantly, with all the 's and broken line breaks that everybody's mail clients and put everywhere.) 3.) Easier to modify your post if you notice a mistake or want to clarify something, rather than making a new post. 4.) Easier to delete or move posts if they are spam, rude, inappropriate, belong in the general TF2 SPUF forum, etc. 5.) Easier to ignore an entire thread that you are not interested in. Could there be some sort of forum + push notification that would satisfy what everybody wants? This list exists to serve you guys, so I'm curious what everything thinks. I *believe* most of the guys would find a forum format (perhaps with some push notification) more convenient. It would be good to get some opinions about how people prefer to consume the information on this list. Please chime in. Your humble servant, - Fletch ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Before responding, I'd first like to point out to people that are looking for JUST announcements about updates that such a list exists. In fact, there are 3 seperate srcds related mailing lists. All of Valve's mailing lists can be found here; http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/ I much prefer a mailing list format. Even if it takes a little more effort than creating a SPUF account, it's worth it. It acts as somewhat of a filter, and consists of mostly server operators that use it for good. I'm not sure I'd be able to stomach the SPUF user base having the ability to post replies in every topic. The current state of the servers section of the tf2 forums are pretty sad. Though there are some bad or devolved threads, there has been a huge amount of help that has come from these lists. There are some incredibly knowledgeable people that take time out of their own days to help and work with others to reach a resolution on a variety of issues. This is especially helpful on patch days, when people may be sitting in front of a console trying to troubleshoot issues, instead of on a PC where they can browse forums. The feedback can be instantaneous, and comes from a variety of sources, which is almost always helpful and accurate. You can say that forums are easier to search, and look for things that have been solved in old topics, but my experience has shown that people will still create a new/duplicate topic, even if another one is on the same page. There are also plenty of services out there that archive the lists (including Valve themselves). A quick google search on a variety of 'hot' srcds topics will usually result in one of these archives popping up with the answer. I know it's helped me quite a few times. So without further ranting, I'd like to close by saying that I really do appreciate the list format, really appreciate the feedback we can get directly from valve (especially lately), have no amount of respect for the incredibly helpful admins on the list, and would hate to see it go. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:55 PM, David Parker dpar...@utica.edu wrote: Hello, The last time this was brought up, it was met with an overwhelming response in favor of keeping the mailing list. This time around, the majority of responses seem to be from people who really want to keep this a mailing list, and those who would be willing to try a forum but would still prefer a mailing list. The common element here (as I see it) is that most people seem to prefer the mailing list format. Personally, I much prefer mailing lists to forums any day, for pretty much any topic. Forums are generally full of dead-end threads, stupid bump posts, and misinformation posted by random people. I work at a college, and I have discovered that about 99% of the students I encounter have no idea how to use a mailing list, and would never even try it unless they were compelled to for some reason. Forums, on the other hand, can be (and usually are) used by just about anyone. It is my firm belief that keeping this as a mailing list dramatically cuts down on the number of people posting, and increases the quality and topical knowledge of those who do post, compared to what we would get in a forum. A forum would end up having every idiot script kiddy posting in it, and we would probably see a crazy increase in the number of off-topic posts and the sometimes not-so-polite pointings to other places for the information. Basically, mailing lists *generally* tend to be used by a more mature class of people, and by people who are seriously interested in the topic of the list. Forums, even moderated ones, tend to be used by anyone who had a few spare minutes and felt like signing up. So... please keep this a list! - Dave - Original Message - From: Fletcher Dunn fletch...@valvesoftware.com Date: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:34 pm Subject: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com, h...@list.valvesoftware.com h...@list.valvesoftware.com I am honestly astounded by the amount of people who complain when people ask for help on help forums or mailing lists. Not everyone signs up and instantly reads everything, goes through all the archives, or spends hours researching. I'd like to use this comment as a springboard for a discussion about the format of this list. I hear that a few years ago the idea of migrating the email list to a forum was kicked around. However, at the time (is this still true today?) the users of the list didn't like the idea. it is my understanding that most server admins prefer: 1.) Receiving push notifications. 2.) Viewing the list in their email client #1 seems like a really compelling advantage (especially for announcements), while #2 seems like a personal preference, and many people have the opposite preference. A forum has several compelling
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio. I only click on a very few threads. In other words, my participation level is lower with web forums. Replies: Kigen wrote: Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages. That is what mail rules/filters are for. DarthNinja wrote: I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data. People have to visit to check up on topics. People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment. I agree. msleeper wrote: Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as facepunch, and I hope you realize it. Harsh, but true. This is why I signed up for the mailing list. I am pro network engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a year ago. I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on server administration related tasks. I did not come to discuss in-game content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums. That being said, let's face it: More than half of the people on this (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command line. Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano. Just gotta put up with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile. Steffen Schmolinske wrote: I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives search functions. Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Ryan Stecker wrote: I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent method of searching, Again, Valve is stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Why are they taking away from you something that you would otherwise have? They have deliberately password protected the archives and prevent search engines from searching them. msleeper wrote: the main reason the list fails (and moving SPUF would only make it worse) is that most people post crap nobody needs to hear or wants to read and isn't useful. ... And guess what - we don't care about or need to hear about you telling us that. Shut up, keep your stupid opinions to yourselves, and maybe
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
It's not a pros versus newbs thing, it's exactly what you said - the list isn't for a social experience. If someone wants to bitch about how quickplay is ruining their server or about how hats have ruined the game, then do it somewhere else. I continue to use the phrase relevant to server administration because opinons on gameplay mechanics and the like aren't. On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Jesse Molina je...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio. I only click on a very few threads. In other words, my participation level is lower with web forums. Replies: Kigen wrote: Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages. That is what mail rules/filters are for. DarthNinja wrote: I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data. People have to visit to check up on topics. People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment. I agree. msleeper wrote: Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as facepunch, and I hope you realize it. Harsh, but true. This is why I signed up for the mailing list. I am pro network engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a year ago. I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on server administration related tasks. I did not come to discuss in-game content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums. That being said, let's face it: More than half of the people on this (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command line. Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano. Just gotta put up with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile. Steffen Schmolinske wrote: I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives search functions. Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Ryan Stecker wrote: I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent method of searching, Again, Valve is stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Why are they taking away from you something that you would
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina je...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio. I only click on a very few threads. In other words, my participation level is lower with web forums. Replies: Kigen wrote: Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages. That is what mail rules/filters are for. DarthNinja wrote: I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data. People have to visit to check up on topics. People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment. I agree. msleeper wrote: Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as facepunch, and I hope you realize it. Harsh, but true. This is why I signed up for the mailing list. I am pro network engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a year ago. I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on server administration related tasks. I did not come to discuss in-game content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums. That being said, let's face it: More than half of the people on this (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command line. Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano. Just gotta put up with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile. Steffen Schmolinske wrote: I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives search functions. Valve is, right now, actively stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Ryan Stecker wrote: I would love a forum. I don't think the mailing list provides any decent method of searching, Again, Valve is stopping you from having this. Ask them why they are doing that. Why are they taking away from you something that you would otherwise have? They have deliberately password protected
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob ad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina je...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio. I only click on a very few threads. In other words, my participation level is lower with web forums. Replies: Kigen wrote: Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages. That is what mail rules/filters are for. DarthNinja wrote: I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data. People have to visit to check up on topics. People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment. I agree. msleeper wrote: Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as facepunch, and I hope you realize it. Harsh, but true. This is why I signed up for the mailing list. I am pro network engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a year ago. I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on server administration related tasks. I did not come to discuss in-game content issues at all -- such issues are good for the main forums. That being said, let's face it: More than half of the people on this (linux) mailing list doesn't know what a pipe, |, does on the bash command line. Their preferred editor is the pico clone nano. Just gotta put up with it... or maybe even help a noob once in awhile. Steffen Schmolinske wrote: I'd like to have a forum just for the sake of proper archives search functions. Valve is, right now,
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
Use this: http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds@list.valvesoftware.com/maillist.html http://www.mail-archive.com/hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com/maillist.html -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 7:29 AM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crob ad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molina je...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of where I really must. This is mostly because most of those forums have a very low signal to noise ratio. I only click on a very few threads. In other words, my participation level is lower with web forums. Replies: Kigen wrote: Honestly, I don't like getting my inbox spammed with these messages. That is what mail rules/filters are for. DarthNinja wrote: I don't like the idea of forums, because it's a passive stream of data. People have to visit to check up on topics. People are just a lot less likely to reply to things in a forum environment. I agree. msleeper wrote: Valve, I'm sorry, but your forum population is about as dumb as facepunch, and I hope you realize it. Harsh, but true. This is why I signed up for the mailing list. I am pro network engineer/unix sysadmin, but I didn't know anything about srcds servers a year ago. I needed a place where I could come to for technical help on server administration related tasks. I did not come to discuss in-game content issues at all -- such issues
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business. I use mutt and Seamonkey as my mail clients, depending on where I'm at. I use my android phone to check email. Checking a web forum would be significantly more difficult. I would not do it, at all. I check email, rss, and podcasts with my phone. Web forums are iPhone/Android unfriendly. My Android client is k9mail. Some people brought up the issue of email spam because they fear giving out the mail address. Use a spam filter. I don't get spam because I have my own server with Spamassassin running. If you are using a free mail provider, you get what you pay for (adverts). Business and professionals use email. I wish I had more pleasant advice to give out, but that's the truth. What about a forum that sends out email update announcements? I don't use those myself, with a very few exceptions of
Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list
There's no pressure from anywhere to close this mailing list. Since most people seem to be happy with the list in its current form, it looks like it's highly unlikely that we would be able to find another alternative that offers compelling enough advantages to make it worth our while to migrate. Making it easier to search the archives seems like something simple we could look into. I'll see you guys in another two years when the next Valve noob brings up this topic again. :) Cheers, Fletch -Original Message- From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:03 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Forum vs. email list I prefer mailing list. Just because it's easy to use while reading regular e-mail and you can just pick a message to read easily, delete immediately the rest that you don't need. On forum, you have to browse around on many threads and it's very time consuming. I also hate the SPUF style where you just get post to your mail that happened after your reply and the messages after that are ignored untill i visit the forum again. Forums might be clean first but full of dirt later. Too many immature people there, way less here on this list. People go crazy on forums whenever someone from Valve replies, they want to contribute. I'ts a mess there. Benefit on forums is the the easier search and messages browsing if you prefer reading all once a week and have time to go through all the messages. The count of messages that should not be posted would rise high too. It would be harder to find the thing you are looking for. It's good for historians. How many people browse old messages anyway and why? To check something or find answer? Isn't wiki for the answers better or some sort of section how to run a server for dummies. The recent change where there's as much as ~10 people been around from Valve within a month is something i've never seen before. I thought the list would live long and the latter closing notice would have been proved wrong but i guess there is pressure to close the list down. This is way more convinient than forums. Please do not close this down. -ics 25.10.2011 7:28, Andrew kirjoitti: What about adding some kind of easy searching to the mailing list archives? That seems to be only commonly brought up minus to keeping this format. I am able to access them (the archives) with my login, but the standard listings by month and downloadable gzip'ed archives makes searching nontrivial. Improving that would be a big + On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 11:24 PM, m33crobad...@m33crob.com wrote: I too would prefer to keep the mailing list. If a forum materializes out of this conversation, I would be interested in becoming a moderator. I'm already super active in the Steam Forums and you guys may or may not have noticed that I update the Steam Forums server sections almost everyday. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Jesse Molinaje...@opendreams.net wrote: I prefer mailing lists, which is why I am here. Discussion and replies are below: I prefer mailing lists because there is a small technical barrier to entry. Chances are that you had to use a search engine to find it, which means you probably already tried to find what you were looking for via that search engine and failed. Many noobs don't even know what a mailman list is, and that's good. I want to talk to other people who can actually help me. This mailing list is not primarily for a social experience. For most forums, a significant amount of code is dedicated to smileys, avatars, signatures, friends/foes, etc, because they need the social experience, because they are ad-revenue driven. The amount of whitespace on web forums, compared to email, is terrible. Here's a thought: The quality of the discussion is primarily impacted by how those with authoritative knowledge (Valve employees and pros) engage in the discussion. If Valve employees were more inclined to participate in discussion on a web forum, I'd go web forum. I would not cry too hard if this one mailing list went away. It's just games. About the archives: Why are they password protected, and why has my password never ever worked? From day one, the password that came in my welcome email didn't work and I never tried again. I have never ever searched the archives because I can't. It is nice to have a single point of discussion for issues, as opposed to many different sites and applications. As an example, I am an aquarium hobbyist, and I often visit five different web forums because each has some specialty, or the community is fractured up. This is annoying. This is also why I don't check forums.srcds.com but once in a great while. I've never seen a duel-pane message board reader that worked well. I see browsing message boards as messy business
