Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
-- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Steam bans is great. I love it. If you get a hacker get a demo of him and send it to them and they will decide if he is a hacker or not. On 10/26/05, -=LE=- Doomed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: steambans.com http://steambans.com Very similar to what your talking about...been going strong since it started.. There are some interesting social issues, as well as technical issues of trust bubbling to the surface here. I'll throw an idea out, and I look forward to seeing it shredded to bits. :) What if the concept of established chains of trust, much like SSL certs are accepted, was established based on Steam ID? Before you flame on about SSL/X509/etc., let me admit that I'm no expert -- I know there are a lot of differences with the below suggestion. This is a little far-fetched and not easily implemented today, but it may be a worth discussion. What if there were independent clearing houses that determined the legitimacy of a particular Steam ID and established a chain of trust that server ops could choose to subscribe to or not? Obviously this would have to be implemented with server plugins on participating servers. It would be a multi-tiered approach. You have players, server operators, and Steam ID Authorities. The downstream flow is that Steam ID Authorities, those who determine what Steam ID's are accepted as non-cheaters, and server ops, who choose to be the second layer of trust by accepting that set of Steam ID's as valid, establish a level of trust for regular players. Steam ID Authorities must establish a policy for grievances against certain Steam ID's and this is where it gets tricky -- there is a potentially abusable system where the upstream data of who is naughty and nice can be manipulated. If Steam ID Authorities (known as SIA's from now on, I'm tired of typing all that crap out) mandate a quorum, or certain number of subscribing server ops that report a Steam ID as a cheater, then an easily abusable system of upstream reports of trust by hackers may (not guaranteed, but this is based on trust!) be avoided. This isn't a perfect approach, and if anyone can suggest a better way then please do so. The biggest problem is that the SIA's get bogged down in deciding which server ops are trustworthy or not. It would definitely require vigilance on the part of SIA's, but a history of whether server ops can be trusted or not must be determined. There have to be far fewer operators that run hack-friendly servers than ops that are sick and tired of cheaters. Why worry about checking CVAR's and the presence of hacked DLL's when you can get an angry mob of people together and burn cheaters at the stake? :) There are certainly issues with my suggestion that are unresolved and unexplained, but I'd like to hear if anyone else thinks this may be worth investigating. Sorry for the long read and if you don't feel like contributing a suggestion then just don't reply. Thanks. -- Alex On 10/25/05, Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Putting cheaters on MSNBC isn't going to help anything, just like tossing people with drug addictions in prison. It's a waste of resources, time and money. None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
FULL ACK if a customer would break the law, with me and the other customers as victims, i wouldnt even allow him to visit any of my objects anymore. also id like to have that all cheaters that are recognized shall not only be banned for one easy year. their accounts shall be banned permanent, for all valve (steam)games. also, since valve has personal information/email, id like to have these information banned too, so they cannot create steamaccounts with their email/realname/address for their new game. Simon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 1:06 PM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
You cannot ban a person.. only their account... If someone buys a copy and create an account, they will be able to play with a new steamid. Valve has no time or resources to verify who have bought it in person.. And I will have a hard time to believe that they even capable of it. /Bjorn On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -- The best acceleration you can get on a mac is 9.8 m/s^2 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
This is true but other gaming industries are doing global bans. For example if you are caught doing certain cheats in BF2 your hardware id is banned. Not only is your ban permenant in BF2, the player is globally banned in any games supported by PB. It is a start in the right direction. It at least makes a cheater/hacker feel the pain for their actions. IMHO until you take the anomnimite of gaming away people will still hide behind their computers and get away with as much as they can. Crazy_One kama wrote: You cannot ban a person.. only their account... If someone buys a copy and create an account, they will be able to play with a new steamid. Valve has no time or resources to verify who have bought it in person.. And I will have a hard time to believe that they even capable of it. /Bjorn On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -- The best acceleration you can get on a mac is 9.8 m/s^2 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
That is old news, and plus there are a multitude or workarounds to bypass the hardware banning. Personally, the best way to combat cheating is with technical solutions, not the PB retroactive banning system. Publicly humiliating users will only encourage them to keep doing what they originally got 'banned' for, because they have nothing to lose. /ges At 05:27 PM 10/25/2005, Bryan wrote: This is true but other gaming industries are doing global bans. For example if you are caught doing certain cheats in BF2 your hardware id is banned. Not only is your ban permenant in BF2, the player is globally banned in any games supported by PB. It is a start in the right direction. It at least makes a cheater/hacker feel the pain for their actions. IMHO until you take the anomnimite of gaming away people will still hide behind their computers and get away with as much as they can. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
In that case they're loosing a customer. That doesn't make sense to do anything like that. Just ensure for all new games the same measures are put in place to detect cheats in that game and then you'll not loose out. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 7:28 AM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning This is true but other gaming industries are doing global bans. For example if you are caught doing certain cheats in BF2 your hardware id is banned. Not only is your ban permenant in BF2, the player is globally banned in any games supported by PB. It is a start in the right direction. It at least makes a cheater/hacker feel the pain for their actions. IMHO until you take the anomnimite of gaming away people will still hide behind their computers and get away with as much as they can. Crazy_One kama wrote: You cannot ban a person.. only their account... If someone buys a copy and create an account, they will be able to play with a new steamid. Valve has no time or resources to verify who have bought it in person.. And I will have a hard time to believe that they even capable of it. /Bjorn On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -- The best acceleration you can get on a mac is 9.8 m/s^2 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Well I don't agree with you. If I have learned nothing else in my many years of gaming it this, anything coded by a human can be hacked by another human. I can rest assure you that if gamer x was publicly known he would be much more careful about doing cheating especially if his name hit the local news that gamerx was caught last night cheating in a tournament. He would probably lose his job over something like that. The unspoken truth about soceity is the most people are unwilling to suffer the consequences if they do something wrong. That is what is missing in gaming. Until you make it painful and humiliating to society hackers and cheaters will run unchecked. Crazy_One Gary wrote: That is old news, and plus there are a multitude or workarounds to bypass the hardware banning. Personally, the best way to combat cheating is with technical solutions, not the PB retroactive banning system. Publicly humiliating users will only encourage them to keep doing what they originally got 'banned' for, because they have nothing to lose. /ges At 05:27 PM 10/25/2005, Bryan wrote: This is true but other gaming industries are doing global bans. For example if you are caught doing certain cheats in BF2 your hardware id is banned. Not only is your ban permenant in BF2, the player is globally banned in any games supported by PB. It is a start in the right direction. It at least makes a cheater/hacker feel the pain for their actions. IMHO until you take the anomnimite of gaming away people will still hide behind their computers and get away with as much as they can. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Not really, if the game is popular enough and enjoyable enough chances are they will go about and buy another copy but be way more careful the second time. Even if they don't they have already spent the money, the company has nothing to lose. Crazy_One JoeSoap wrote: In that case they're loosing a customer. That doesn't make sense to do anything like that. Just ensure for all new games the same measures are put in place to detect cheats in that game and then you'll not loose out. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan Sent: Wednesday, 26 October 2005 7:28 AM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning This is true but other gaming industries are doing global bans. For example if you are caught doing certain cheats in BF2 your hardware id is banned. Not only is your ban permenant in BF2, the player is globally banned in any games supported by PB. It is a start in the right direction. It at least makes a cheater/hacker feel the pain for their actions. IMHO until you take the anomnimite of gaming away people will still hide behind their computers and get away with as much as they can. Crazy_One kama wrote: You cannot ban a person.. only their account... If someone buys a copy and create an account, they will be able to play with a new steamid. Valve has no time or resources to verify who have bought it in person.. And I will have a hard time to believe that they even capable of it. /Bjorn On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For me it isn't ok. Some DoD:S buyers received the backcatalogue as an addon due to some problems in the beginning of the DoD:S distribution time... I don't wanna know how many of them would like to annoy some Counter-Strikers ;) Persons/accounts has to be banned, not the value of a game... hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com schrieb am 25.10.05 13:02:30: Yeah Mike, thats true. If you got banned from a back catalogue game, you're still able to play HL2/CS:S/DoD:S etc.pp and imho it's okay. regards -r99t Mike Miller wrote: -- [ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ] Well, I've searched through the steampowered forums, and have been unable to locate the answer. It's been said that if you're banned from a back catalogue game (DoD, CS, etc.), that you're still able to play HL2 games on secure servers? Is this true? I was under the impression that if you were banned from one game, you were banned from all of them. -- --- Mike DaiTengu Miller Serverwiki Founder http://www.serverwiki.org H^2 | http://www.daitengu.com -- ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux -- The best acceleration you can get on a mac is 9.8 m/s^2 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
On Oct 25, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Bryan wrote: Well I don't agree with you. If I have learned nothing else in my many years of gaming it this, anything coded by a human can be hacked by another human. I can rest assure you that if gamer x was publicly known he would be much more careful about doing cheating especially if his name hit the local news that gamerx was caught last night cheating in a tournament. He would probably lose his job over something like that. The unspoken truth about soceity is the most people are unwilling to suffer the consequences if they do something wrong. That is what is missing in gaming. Until you make it painful and humiliating to society hackers and cheaters will run unchecked. Losing their job for cheating at a video game? Have you been spending too much time with the rubber cement again? -- Erik Hollensbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Erik Hollensbe wrote: On Oct 25, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Bryan wrote: Well I don't agree with you. If I have learned nothing else in my many years of gaming it this, anything coded by a human can be hacked by another human. I can rest assure you that if gamer x was publicly known he would be much more careful about doing cheating especially if his name hit the local news that gamerx was caught last night cheating in a tournament. He would probably lose his job over something like that. The unspoken truth about soceity is the most people are unwilling to suffer the consequences if they do something wrong. That is what is missing in gaming. Until you make it painful and humiliating to society hackers and cheaters will run unchecked. Losing their job for cheating at a video game? Have you been spending too much time with the rubber cement again? -- Erik Hollensbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Putting cheaters on MSNBC isn't going to help anything, just like tossing people with drug addictions in prison. It's a waste of resources, time and money. None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
RE: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
I'd suggest having the client's IP address directly link to their home address in a paid-to-view database. Maybe $10 per search. See how many cheaters there are walking around with no teeth a month later. Actions speak louder than words. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:16 PM To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning Putting cheaters on MSNBC isn't going to help anything, just like tossing people with drug addictions in prison. It's a waste of resources, time and money. None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
There are some interesting social issues, as well as technical issues of trust bubbling to the surface here. I'll throw an idea out, and I look forward to seeing it shredded to bits. :) What if the concept of established chains of trust, much like SSL certs are accepted, was established based on Steam ID? Before you flame on about SSL/X509/etc., let me admit that I'm no expert -- I know there are a lot of differences with the below suggestion. This is a little far-fetched and not easily implemented today, but it may be a worth discussion. What if there were independent clearing houses that determined the legitimacy of a particular Steam ID and established a chain of trust that server ops could choose to subscribe to or not? Obviously this would have to be implemented with server plugins on participating servers. It would be a multi-tiered approach. You have players, server operators, and Steam ID Authorities. The downstream flow is that Steam ID Authorities, those who determine what Steam ID's are accepted as non-cheaters, and server ops, who choose to be the second layer of trust by accepting that set of Steam ID's as valid, establish a level of trust for regular players. Steam ID Authorities must establish a policy for grievances against certain Steam ID's and this is where it gets tricky -- there is a potentially abusable system where the upstream data of who is naughty and nice can be manipulated. If Steam ID Authorities (known as SIA's from now on, I'm tired of typing all that crap out) mandate a quorum, or certain number of subscribing server ops that report a Steam ID as a cheater, then an easily abusable system of upstream reports of trust by hackers may (not guaranteed, but this is based on trust!) be avoided. This isn't a perfect approach, and if anyone can suggest a better way then please do so. The biggest problem is that the SIA's get bogged down in deciding which server ops are trustworthy or not. It would definitely require vigilance on the part of SIA's, but a history of whether server ops can be trusted or not must be determined. There have to be far fewer operators that run hack-friendly servers than ops that are sick and tired of cheaters. Why worry about checking CVAR's and the presence of hacked DLL's when you can get an angry mob of people together and burn cheaters at the stake? :) There are certainly issues with my suggestion that are unresolved and unexplained, but I'd like to hear if anyone else thinks this may be worth investigating. Sorry for the long read and if you don't feel like contributing a suggestion then just don't reply. Thanks. -- Alex On 10/25/05, Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Putting cheaters on MSNBC isn't going to help anything, just like tossing people with drug addictions in prison. It's a waste of resources, time and money. None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
* snip * Not to be impolite, but it seems to me like we're deviating from the purpose of this mailing list and the original subject. In responce to the original question; being VAC banned in source is not a ban from non-source games, and vice versa is true. Being VAC banned in a non-source game leaves you free to join source games. Why this all is true I am uncertain. Valve has decided that is how they want it to function, and there are a multitude of reasons behind the different potential approaches they could make to the hacking problem. -- Do not try to interject logic into my rambling. -Ethan Hammond from the PS NG ~Only the ignorant man becomes angry, the wise man understands.~ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
I think that in the end, the best bet will be social pressure. Vis: pay $RAP_ARTIST some $LARGE sum of money and have them wrap about how hax is not cool, foo' and the problem should resolve itself. We should start taking up a collection now. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
Are you sure about this??? I thought being VAC2 banned is Perm, VAC was never perm, but when I join my CS1.6 server it says Perm, with the pretty VAC2 logo??? So your going to tell me if I get banned from VAC2 on my CS 1.6, I can still play source which runs VAC2? - Original Message - From: Cam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hlds_linux@list.valvesoftware.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning * snip * Not to be impolite, but it seems to me like we're deviating from the purpose of this mailing list and the original subject. In responce to the original question; being VAC banned in source is not a ban from non-source games, and vice versa is true. Being VAC banned in a non-source game leaves you free to join source games. Why this all is true I am uncertain. Valve has decided that is how they want it to function, and there are a multitude of reasons behind the different potential approaches they could make to the hacking problem. -- Do not try to interject logic into my rambling. -Ethan Hammond from the PS NG ~Only the ignorant man becomes angry, the wise man understands.~ ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
Re: [hlds_linux] VAC Banning
steambans.com Very similar to what your talking about...been going strong since it started.. There are some interesting social issues, as well as technical issues of trust bubbling to the surface here. I'll throw an idea out, and I look forward to seeing it shredded to bits. :) What if the concept of established chains of trust, much like SSL certs are accepted, was established based on Steam ID? Before you flame on about SSL/X509/etc., let me admit that I'm no expert -- I know there are a lot of differences with the below suggestion. This is a little far-fetched and not easily implemented today, but it may be a worth discussion. What if there were independent clearing houses that determined the legitimacy of a particular Steam ID and established a chain of trust that server ops could choose to subscribe to or not? Obviously this would have to be implemented with server plugins on participating servers. It would be a multi-tiered approach. You have players, server operators, and Steam ID Authorities. The downstream flow is that Steam ID Authorities, those who determine what Steam ID's are accepted as non-cheaters, and server ops, who choose to be the second layer of trust by accepting that set of Steam ID's as valid, establish a level of trust for regular players. Steam ID Authorities must establish a policy for grievances against certain Steam ID's and this is where it gets tricky -- there is a potentially abusable system where the upstream data of who is naughty and nice can be manipulated. If Steam ID Authorities (known as SIA's from now on, I'm tired of typing all that crap out) mandate a quorum, or certain number of subscribing server ops that report a Steam ID as a cheater, then an easily abusable system of upstream reports of trust by hackers may (not guaranteed, but this is based on trust!) be avoided. This isn't a perfect approach, and if anyone can suggest a better way then please do so. The biggest problem is that the SIA's get bogged down in deciding which server ops are trustworthy or not. It would definitely require vigilance on the part of SIA's, but a history of whether server ops can be trusted or not must be determined. There have to be far fewer operators that run hack-friendly servers than ops that are sick and tired of cheaters. Why worry about checking CVAR's and the presence of hacked DLL's when you can get an angry mob of people together and burn cheaters at the stake? :) There are certainly issues with my suggestion that are unresolved and unexplained, but I'd like to hear if anyone else thinks this may be worth investigating. Sorry for the long read and if you don't feel like contributing a suggestion then just don't reply. Thanks. -- Alex On 10/25/05, Gary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Putting cheaters on MSNBC isn't going to help anything, just like tossing people with drug addictions in prison. It's a waste of resources, time and money. None, as an avid gamer, server admin, clan leader and defender of our country I understand what will take to move gaming to the next level. If you have a better way I would love to hear it. Don't bitch about how to improve things unless you have a better way to get there. Crazy_One ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux
