[Hornlist] RE:Fundemantal Pitch and overblowing for low notes.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but do we not "overblow" to achieve notes below the fundemental pitch relative to the length of the tube!? I do not agree that the "lowest possiable note" then the octave above starts the series. The fundemental is the lowest natural note for the given length excluding overblowing... Matthew Scheffelman horn __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] obscure Rosetti recording
on 1/5/05 3:15 PM, Kurtis Henderson at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I own a cd with a recording of Rosetti concerto in D minor that I really > enjoy. I've owned it for a few years, and didn't realize that I had it, or > that is was worthwhile till recently. I bought it on a whim once at a cd > store, when I found it on sale for two or three dollars, so inexpensive > because it's a label I suppose no one recognised. I would liek to know who the > performers are. It's Excelsior Classic Gold, The Art of the French Horn. There > were no notes included with the cd. On the disc, it says it is copyrighted by > Vox musical group, and I've checked their website, and found a similar cd with > all the same pieces, less the Mozart concerto my cd has. The cd listed on > Vox's website is described here: http://www.cd101.net/ACD8144.html > I haven't been able to find anythign about excelsior or the cd I own anywhere > online. Does anybody have any information conscerning the performers or the cd > label? > > Thanks a bunch, > > Kurtis > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/youngjim80%40earthlink.net I have the same CD you were inquiring about. It is "The Art of the French Horn".label: Excelsior, Classic Gold, Cat. No: EXL-2-5344. My CD included a pamphlet showing the composer, title of the piece, movements of each, and the performers. Shown below is some of the information. TELEMANN: Suite in F Major for Horn, 2 Oboes and String Orchestra Alois Spach, Gottfried Roth, Joachim Scholmeyer, & Alfred Balser, Horns; Mainz Chamber Orchestra. Gunter Kehr, Conductor VIVALDI: Concerto in F Major for 2 Horns and String Orchestra, P.320 Alois Spach & Gottfried Roth, Horns; Mainz Chamber Orchestra Gunter Kehr, Conductor MOZART: Concert in E-flat Major for Horn and Orchestra, K. 417 Joze Falout, Horn; Ljubljana Symphony Orchestra, Anton Nanut, Conductor ROSETTI: Conserto in D Minor for Horn and Orchestra Erich Penzel, Horn; Wurttemberg Chamber Orchestra, Heilbronn Jorg Faerber, Conductor James Maddrey member Raleigh Concert Band Raleigh Horn Club ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
Orlando, this is perfect correct. But the numbering derives from the natural pitches which start with the fundamental as step (1) & continues with the partials as steps (2) up to (16) & more. Exactly, we are all on the same page. Just came home from a Don Carlo performance (Paris version), helping out in a province orchestra (horns & bassoons & flutes were quite good), but a nightmare of a cello solo. I have never imagined such in the worst caricature nightmare dreams such. The poor guy never played it before & had to jump in for the ill solo cello. You should imagine that for yourself. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:46 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation I understand what you are saying, but in physics, there is a difference between fundamental and partials. The lowest pitch possible is the fundamental, and the octave is called the FIRST partial. Yes, it is indeed the second note possible, but it is the first overtone. Perhaps there are translation issues here? Either way, I think we are all on the same page. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:08 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] notation There is again a confusion between partial & natural tones. The numbering starts with the fundamental , if we go for the natural pitches (tones), but starts an octave higher, if we go for the partials Then all numbering would become crazy. O.k. let´s start over again. The fundamental is number 1, the octave above (our low C) is number 2, the open g below staff is number 3, while the c1 (middle c) on the first ledger line below staff is number 4. The row continues with e1 as 5, g1 as 6, bb1 (bit flat) as no.7 & c2 as number 8, which is followed up by d2 as no.9, e2 as no.10, f2 (bit sharp) as no.11, g2 as no.12, g#(too sharp)-a2(too flat) as no.13, bb2 as no.14, b-nat2 as no.15 & finally c3 as no.16. You see the arithmetics ? Octaves have the number volume doubled, which cannot be the case if we start numbering from the first partial on upwards & leaving the fundamental unnumbered. Right ? C = 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 G = 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 (g3) E = 5 - 10 - 20 (high e3 as there are all half steps possible : c, c#, d, d#, e) By the way, I have never had any difficulty entering with the fundamental on the F-Horn, no matter single Viennese or on the double´s F-side. A below the fundamental (fingered with F-3) is reachable always but without strength as it needs crazy much air. Using my regular Viennese type mouthpiece. Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 home: www.pizka.de email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka.de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Partials
Got it, thanks to Jay Kosta's link. I missed the part where someone said that the fundamental is one octave below middle "C". I'm sure it wasn't me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeremy Hansen Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:30 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Partials The term "partial" includes the fundamental. The term "overtone" does not. Orlando, I would suspect that switching the two terms is where much of the confusion arises. There is a compelling reason to use partial numbers, rather than overtone numbers. With partials, octaves of the fundamental are all powers of two, and make the math much easier. The fundamental is two octaves below middle C, not one octave. The inability to play this note for many people is an acoustical characteristic of their horn, not only a measure of low facility. The fundamental would not speak on my old instrument, whereas it does on my newer one. Brian Holmes would be able to explain why. Jeremy Hansen Eastern Illinois University ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
You bet! This will be a good one to zing him with. You know how they always know everything. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bill Tyler Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:33 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation "Pandolfi, Orlando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks Steve. I'll pass this on to the physics professor at my institution. He's clearly been getting it wrong for a while now. If he refutes Mr. Benade and can back it up with some scholarly evidence, I'll pass it along. Oh, brother, we're in trouble now ... we getting physics professors involved. - Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
"Pandolfi, Orlando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks Steve. I'll pass this on to the physics professor at my institution. He's clearly been getting it wrong for a while now. If he refutes Mr. Benade and can back it up with some scholarly evidence, I'll pass it along. Oh, brother, we're in trouble now ... we getting physics professors involved. - Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation - web reference
A good acoustics course is something that, in my not-so-humble opinion, ought to be required in every undergraduate music program. The right person to teach such a course is almost invariably *not* a musician but rather a scientist with some musical skill and sensitivity. >From what little I know of college programs, a good acoustics course is more likely to be found at a large university and less likely to be found at a small conservatory. =S= > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:42 PM > To: The Horn List > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation - web reference > > Great link, Jay. Thanks! I didn't know overtones and partials > were not interchangeable terms. So much for conservatory training... > > O. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Jay Kosta > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:55 AM > To: horn@music.memphis.edu > Subject: [Hornlist] notation - web reference > > This web page has a good descriptions of the various tems > being used . > > http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/bain/atmi02/onc/ > > Jay Kosta > Endwell NY > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridaysc omputer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Partials *correction
The botched word 'charactaristics' should be 'characteristics' Whps! :) -William In a message dated 1/11/2005 1:57:31 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: charactaristics ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Partials
I agree. I believe the acoustical charactaristics of the Horn are one of the reasons at least to why the fundamental isn't always easy to reach. I consider myself to have a decent low range, but I cannot start a fundamental C all the time - in fact I can only start the note on rare days even though if I play down to it from an F to a C on the Bb horn it's easy to do. I always wondered too if it's just a sort of 'knack'. I remember from my trumpet days that there was a nice knack to reaching the pedal tones, and some people could do it, and others couldn't. Horn players seem to be able to reach it with no problem I find. I also ponder the possibility that it's the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece is just too small to allow everyone to start on a fundamental C perhaps. Everyone's lips are different, and microscopically everyone's embouchure is as well. If we were given a larger mouthpiece, would we be able to reach the fundamental C easier? The horn tubing is longer than a Trombone's isn't it? The bore is much smaller, so I wonder if that is part of it as well. After all, not many people outside of the Horn world consider the Horn a low brass instrument. And, not many people outside of the Trombone world realize the pedal tone competitions that trombone players have aren't just annoyingly loud, but just a lot of fun because their instrument can allow them to do it? Although this was a long rant, I do know I can belt out a pretty loud low C (bass clef) and F below that, so belting pedal tones is definitely possible, although not very practical, and doesn't guarantee you can ever reach a fundamental C. -William PS: I just read what I typed. How's that from a leap from tangent to tangent? In a message dated 1/11/2005 1:31:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The term "partial" includes the fundamental. The term "overtone" does not. Orlando, I would suspect that switching the two terms is where much of the confusion arises. There is a compelling reason to use partial numbers, rather than overtone numbers. With partials, octaves of the fundamental are all powers of two, and make the math much easier. The fundamental is two octaves below middle C, not one octave. The inability to play this note for many people is an acoustical characteristic of their horn, not only a measure of low facility. The fundamental would not speak on my old instrument, whereas it does on my newer one. Brian Holmes would be able to explain why. Jeremy Hansen Eastern Illinois University ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials
The term "partial" includes the fundamental. The term "overtone" does not. Orlando, I would suspect that switching the two terms is where much of the confusion arises. There is a compelling reason to use partial numbers, rather than overtone numbers. With partials, octaves of the fundamental are all powers of two, and make the math much easier. The fundamental is two octaves below middle C, not one octave. The inability to play this note for many people is an acoustical characteristic of their horn, not only a measure of low facility. The fundamental would not speak on my old instrument, whereas it does on my newer one. Brian Holmes would be able to explain why. Jeremy Hansen Eastern Illinois University ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Kammermusik Workshop
I meant to send my last post directly to Susan off-list. oops! Steve Ovitsky -- Original Message --- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Horn List Sent: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:01:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Kammermusik Workshop > Dear Susan, > I hope that the summer workshop will also include concerts of the > Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival as well as the opera. We offer 20% > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental
Once again my son, bass trombone and tuba expert, has changed my thinking on pedal tone, but beyond my technique. He discovered that if he plays a Farkas XDC mouthpiece with essentially a trumpet emboucher, he gets a quite good horn sound. He's been around good hornplayers long enough to emulate a strong, professional sound, good enough for tutti work, and quite good for jazz, since he retains the jazz trumpeters ability to play in the altissimo range. Coupled with this is tremendous competence in the pedal range for all low brass. With the XDC mouthpiece and his technique, the pedal notes on the horn don't present much difficulty. He has a tuba collection, about ten horns, that covers the possible range of horns, including a couple in Eb with only three valves. He has a real aversion to C and F tubas because they need so many valves to play in tune. The only tuba he owns with four valves is an 1855 contrabass Saxhorn, which is a collectors item because it is the earliest example of a modern four valve system historians have seen. What I never realized is that a really good tuba player routinely plays down to the pedal tones using notes that aren't in the harmonic series. He just lips them into tune. A three valve Eb has no problem playing the modern BBb or CC range, and the notes are indistinguishable from legitimate notes. He much prefers three valves and an adjustable tuning slide in his left hand. He can do it on any of his horns, but some are easier than others. He demonstrated the same thing on a horn, but the F horn is in the more difficult category. He suspects a really good 4th player might have learned the technique since many of them do their really low playing on the Bb horn to take advantage of the increased agility with the shorter air column. I'm passing on this tuba tidbit as it was news to me that playing these notes is more than just an obnoxious rehearsal trick. Does anyone know of a high level 4th specialist that uses this trick for horn? In a message dated 1/10/2005 9:51:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, Paul Mansur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 08:58 PM, Steve Freides wrote: > >> but can one also learn to play the fundamental pitch on >> the open F horn and the valved notes below that? >> >Definitely possible; but not everyone can play all these notes. I can >get the C,*(F concert) but the concert c down there is out of my range. > Probably out of a lot of folks' range. > >Cheers, PM > >___ >post: horn@music.memphis.edu >unsubscribe or set options at >http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/billbamberg%40aol.com > ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Kammermusik Workshop
Dear Susan, I hope that the summer workshop will also include concerts of the Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival as well as the opera. We offer 20% group discounts through our ticket office manager, John Stevenson at 505-983-2075 ext 102. Here are the programs around the time of the workshop. BTW - Riccardo Morales is principal clarinet of the Philadelphia Orchestra SATURDAY JULY 23 at 5:00 PM BACH # 1 at St. Francis Auditorium BACHPartita No. 3 in E BACHSonata No. 2 in A Minor BACH Partita No. 2 in D Minor Soovin Kim, violin == SUNDAY JULY 24 at 6:00 PM MONDAY JULY 25 at 8:00 PM at St. Francis Auditorium SOLER Sonatas No. 84 and 100 Kathleen McIntosh, harpsichord ARRIAGAString Quartet TBA Miro Quartet: De FALLA Harpsichord Concerto Kathleen McIntosh, harpsichord Demarre McGill, flute Liang Wang, oboe Todd Levy, clarinet L.P. How, violin Bryan Epperson, cello Intermission BRAHMS Clarinet Trio in A Minor Ricardo Morales, clarinet Zuill Bailey, cello Marc Neikrug, piano WEDNESDAY JULY 27 at 6:00 PM at St. Francis Auditorium Insights Concert with Steven Ovitsky (approx. one hour concert, no intermission) BERGFour Pieces for Clarinet & Piano Ricardo Morales, clarinet Marc Neikrug, piano BRAHMS Clarinet Quintet Ricardo Morales, clarinet Miro Quartet: Daniel Ching, violin Sandy Yamamoto, violin John Largess, viola Joshua Gindele, cello = THURSDAY JULY 28 NOON #1 (concert approx. 1 hour, no intermission) at St. Francis Auditorium BEETHOVEN Violin Sonata No. 5 Spring Guillermo Figueroa, violin Marc Neikrug, piano BEETHOVEN String Quartet === THURSDAY JULY 28 at 6:00 PM St. Francis Auditorium BERGFour Pieces for Clarinet & Piano Ricardo Morales, clarinet Marc Neikrug, piano SHOSTAKOVICH String Quartet No. 7 Miro Quartet: Daniel Ching, violin Sandy Yamamoto, violin John Largess, viola Joshua Gindele, cello Intermission BRAHMS Clarinet Quintet Ricardo Morales, clarinet Miro Quartet: Daniel Ching, violin Sandy Yamamoto, violin John Largess, viola Joshua Gindele, cello = SATURDAY JULY 30 at 5:00 PM BACH PLUS (total program approx 80 min.) St. Francis Auditorium BACH Sonata No. 1 in G Minor BACH Partita No. 1 in B Minor BACH Sonata No. 3 in C Soovin Kim, violin SUNDAY JULY 31 at 6:00 PM MONDAY AUGUST 1 at 8:00 PM at St. Francis Auditorium ZELENKA Trio Sonata No. 2 Stephen Taylor, oboe Liang Wang, oboe Whitney Crockett, bassoon Marji Danilow, double bass Kathleen McIntosh, harpsichord PAGANINI Moses Variations on One String on a Theme by Rossini Catherine Cho, violin MARTINU Variations on a Theme of Rossini Eric Kim, cello Marc Neikrug, piano Intermission DVORAK Piano Quartet No. William Preucil, violin Kirsten Johnson, viola Eric Kim, cello Marc Neikrug, piano === TUESDAY AUGUST 2 at NOON #2 (concert approx. 1 hour, no intermission) at St. Francis Auditorium HAYDN String Quartet in E-flat Op. 71, No. 3 BEETHOVEN String Quartet No. 9 in C Op. 59, No. 3 Razumovsky, (1805-6) Johannes Quartet: Soovin Kim, violin Catherine Cho, violin Choong-Jin Chang, viola Peter Stumpf, cello I look forward to meeting you in February. Steve Steven Ovitsky Executive Director Santa Fe Chamber Music Festival -- Original Message --- From: Susan G Peeples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:49:54 -0500 Subject: [Hornlist] Kammermusik Workshop > Now is the time when many people plan their summer playing > experiences. I'd like once more to draw your attention to the > Kammermusik Workshop being held in Santa Fe, NM from July 24-31 this > year. This woodwind "camp" - actually held in the unique and very > comfortable Sunrise Inn and Retreat - is based on the wind quintet > ensemble. There are excellent professional coaches on each > instrument. The week includes private and group tuition, ensemble > playing in quintet and other groups and several perfor
RE: [Hornlist] notation - web reference
Great link, Jay. Thanks! I didn't know overtones and partials were not interchangeable terms. So much for conservatory training... O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay Kosta Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:55 AM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] notation - web reference This web page has a good descriptions of the various tems being used . http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/bain/atmi02/onc/ Jay Kosta Endwell NY ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] RE: Notation
Don't you love language? OK, next argument: Fixed "DO" or movable "DO" ? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 12:32 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] RE: Notation Steve F wrote Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade, and he makes it very clear that the term "partial" is used for any "part" of the sound produced, including the fundamental. It's a necessary way of looking at things because not all sound coming from the same source are necessarily musically related, e.g., Mr. Benade's example of hitting a skillet and listening to the resulting sounds. All such sounds are parts, and therefore partials, of the total sound being produced. In a musical context where the partials are mathematically related (or nearly so, at any rate), the fundamental, the first harmonic, and the first partial all refer to the same pitch. *** Your usage of these terms corresponds to the standard scientific usage. Unfortunately, many people use the term "overtone." The first overtone is the second harmonic. Other people, typically harpists and guitarists, use the term "first harmonic" to mean a note an octave higher than the fundamental. This usage is so ingrained that there is probably no way to correct it, short of hitting the miscreants over the head with a heavy metal object. Alas! Where are Benade and his skillet now that we need them? Gotta go, Cabbfegge ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] RE: Notation
Steve F wrote Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade, and he makes it very clear that the term "partial" is used for any "part" of the sound produced, including the fundamental. It's a necessary way of looking at things because not all sound coming from the same source are necessarily musically related, e.g., Mr. Benade's example of hitting a skillet and listening to the resulting sounds. All such sounds are parts, and therefore partials, of the total sound being produced. In a musical context where the partials are mathematically related (or nearly so, at any rate), the fundamental, the first harmonic, and the first partial all refer to the same pitch. *** Your usage of these terms corresponds to the standard scientific usage. Unfortunately, many people use the term "overtone." The first overtone is the second harmonic. Other people, typically harpists and guitarists, use the term "first harmonic" to mean a note an octave higher than the fundamental. This usage is so ingrained that there is probably no way to correct it, short of hitting the miscreants over the head with a heavy metal object. Alas! Where are Benade and his skillet now that we need them? Gotta go, Cabbfegge ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] notation - web reference
This web page has a good descriptions of the various tems being used . http://www.music.sc.edu/fs/bain/atmi02/onc/ Jay Kosta Endwell NY ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
Thanks Steve. I'll pass this on to the physics professor at my institution. He's clearly been getting it wrong for a while now. If he refutes Mr. Benade and can back it up with some scholarly evidence, I'll pass it along. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:04 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation Orlando, I'm sorry to disagree but I believe Hans' definition is what's generally accepted as correct. I happen to be reading now an acoustics text book, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade, and he makes it very clear that the term "partial" is used for any "part" of the sound produced, including the fundamental. It's a necessary way of looking at things because not all sound coming from the same source are necessarily musically related, e.g., Mr. Benade's example of hitting a skillet and listening to the resulting sounds. All such sounds are parts, and therefore partials, of the total sound being produced. In a musical context where the partials are mathematically related (or nearly so, at any rate), the fundamental, the first harmonic, and the first partial all refer to the same pitch. -S- > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:46 AM > To: The Horn List > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation > > I understand what you are saying, but in physics, there is a > difference between fundamental and partials. The lowest > pitch possible is the fundamental, and the octave is called > the FIRST partial. Yes, it is indeed the second note > possible, but it is the first overtone. > > Perhaps there are translation issues here? Either way, I > think we are all on the same page. > > O. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:08 AM > To: 'The Horn List' > Subject: [Hornlist] notation > > There is again a confusion between partial & natural tones. > The numbering starts with the fundamental , if we go for the > natural pitches (tones), but starts an octave higher, if we > go for the partials > > Then all numbering would become crazy. > > O.k. let´s start over again. The fundamental is number 1, the > octave above (our low C) is number 2, the open g below staff > is number 3, while the c1 (middle c) on the first ledger line > below staff is number 4. The row continues with e1 as 5, g1 > as 6, bb1 (bit flat) as no.7 & c2 as number 8, which is > followed up by d2 as no.9, e2 as no.10, f2 (bit > sharp) as no.11, g2 as no.12, g#(too sharp)-a2(too flat) as > no.13, bb2 as no.14, b-nat2 as no.15 & finally c3 as no.16. > > You see the arithmetics ? Octaves have the number volume > doubled, which cannot be the case if we start numbering from > the first partial on upwards & leaving the fundamental > unnumbered. Right ? > > > C = 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 > G = 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 (g3) > E = 5 - 10 - 20 (high e3 as there are all half steps possible > : c, c#, d, d#, e) > > By the way, I have never had any difficulty entering with the > fundamental on the F-Horn, no matter single Viennese or on > the double´s F-side. A below the fundamental (fingered with > F-3) is reachable always but without strength as it needs > crazy much air. Using my regular Viennese type mouthpiece. > > > Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 > D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany > Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 > home: www.pizka.de > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridaysc omputer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
Orlando, I'm sorry to disagree but I believe Hans' definition is what's generally accepted as correct. I happen to be reading now an acoustics text book, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics" by Arthur H. Benade, and he makes it very clear that the term "partial" is used for any "part" of the sound produced, including the fundamental. It's a necessary way of looking at things because not all sound coming from the same source are necessarily musically related, e.g., Mr. Benade's example of hitting a skillet and listening to the resulting sounds. All such sounds are parts, and therefore partials, of the total sound being produced. In a musical context where the partials are mathematically related (or nearly so, at any rate), the fundamental, the first harmonic, and the first partial all refer to the same pitch. -S- > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:46 AM > To: The Horn List > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] notation > > I understand what you are saying, but in physics, there is a > difference between fundamental and partials. The lowest > pitch possible is the fundamental, and the octave is called > the FIRST partial. Yes, it is indeed the second note > possible, but it is the first overtone. > > Perhaps there are translation issues here? Either way, I > think we are all on the same page. > > O. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:08 AM > To: 'The Horn List' > Subject: [Hornlist] notation > > There is again a confusion between partial & natural tones. > The numbering starts with the fundamental , if we go for the > natural pitches (tones), but starts an octave higher, if we > go for the partials > > Then all numbering would become crazy. > > O.k. let´s start over again. The fundamental is number 1, the > octave above (our low C) is number 2, the open g below staff > is number 3, while the c1 (middle c) on the first ledger line > below staff is number 4. The row continues with e1 as 5, g1 > as 6, bb1 (bit flat) as no.7 & c2 as number 8, which is > followed up by d2 as no.9, e2 as no.10, f2 (bit > sharp) as no.11, g2 as no.12, g#(too sharp)-a2(too flat) as > no.13, bb2 as no.14, b-nat2 as no.15 & finally c3 as no.16. > > You see the arithmetics ? Octaves have the number volume > doubled, which cannot be the case if we start numbering from > the first partial on upwards & leaving the fundamental > unnumbered. Right ? > > > C = 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 > G = 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 (g3) > E = 5 - 10 - 20 (high e3 as there are all half steps possible > : c, c#, d, d#, e) > > By the way, I have never had any difficulty entering with the > fundamental on the F-Horn, no matter single Viennese or on > the double´s F-side. A below the fundamental (fingered with > F-3) is reachable always but without strength as it needs > crazy much air. Using my regular Viennese type mouthpiece. > > > Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 > D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany > Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 > home: www.pizka.de > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu > ___ > post: horn@music.memphis.edu > unsubscribe or set options at > http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridaysc omputer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] notation
I understand what you are saying, but in physics, there is a difference between fundamental and partials. The lowest pitch possible is the fundamental, and the octave is called the FIRST partial. Yes, it is indeed the second note possible, but it is the first overtone. Perhaps there are translation issues here? Either way, I think we are all on the same page. O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:08 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: [Hornlist] notation There is again a confusion between partial & natural tones. The numbering starts with the fundamental , if we go for the natural pitches (tones), but starts an octave higher, if we go for the partials Then all numbering would become crazy. O.k. let´s start over again. The fundamental is number 1, the octave above (our low C) is number 2, the open g below staff is number 3, while the c1 (middle c) on the first ledger line below staff is number 4. The row continues with e1 as 5, g1 as 6, bb1 (bit flat) as no.7 & c2 as number 8, which is followed up by d2 as no.9, e2 as no.10, f2 (bit sharp) as no.11, g2 as no.12, g#(too sharp)-a2(too flat) as no.13, bb2 as no.14, b-nat2 as no.15 & finally c3 as no.16. You see the arithmetics ? Octaves have the number volume doubled, which cannot be the case if we start numbering from the first partial on upwards & leaving the fundamental unnumbered. Right ? C = 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 G = 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 (g3) E = 5 - 10 - 20 (high e3 as there are all half steps possible : c, c#, d, d#, e) By the way, I have never had any difficulty entering with the fundamental on the F-Horn, no matter single Viennese or on the double´s F-side. A below the fundamental (fingered with F-3) is reachable always but without strength as it needs crazy much air. Using my regular Viennese type mouthpiece. Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 home: www.pizka.de email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] notation
There is again a confusion between partial & natural tones. The numbering starts with the fundamental , if we go for the natural pitches (tones), but starts an octave higher, if we go for the partials Then all numbering would become crazy. O.k. let´s start over again. The fundamental is number 1, the octave above (our low C) is number 2, the open g below staff is number 3, while the c1 (middle c) on the first ledger line below staff is number 4. The row continues with e1 as 5, g1 as 6, bb1 (bit flat) as no.7 & c2 as number 8, which is followed up by d2 as no.9, e2 as no.10, f2 (bit sharp) as no.11, g2 as no.12, g#(too sharp)-a2(too flat) as no.13, bb2 as no.14, b-nat2 as no.15 & finally c3 as no.16. You see the arithmetics ? Octaves have the number volume doubled, which cannot be the case if we start numbering from the first partial on upwards & leaving the fundamental unnumbered. Right ? C = 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 G = 3 - 6 - 12 - 24 (g3) E = 5 - 10 - 20 (high e3 as there are all half steps possible : c, c#, d, d#, e) By the way, I have never had any difficulty entering with the fundamental on the F-Horn, no matter single Viennese or on the double´s F-side. A below the fundamental (fingered with F-3) is reachable always but without strength as it needs crazy much air. Using my regular Viennese type mouthpiece. Prof.Hans Pizka, Pf.1136 D-85541 Kirchheim - Germany Fax: 49 89 903-9414 Phone: 903-9548 home: www.pizka.de email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental
As I think I've mentioned here before, I read horn in F, which is all I've been asked to read thus far, in mezzo-soprano clef, lowering accidentals in front of the pitch B. Not so parenthetically, Farkas' book talks quite a bit about reading for horn in different keys and mentions both transposing _and_ the use of clefs. I mention all this because you mention "which ... solfege system" and, having taught fixed "do" for a number of years, can't resist the chance to comment. Fixed "do" is not a solfegge system at all, really; it's just the names of the notes. When I first started studying music in college, the schools I attended used the moveable "do" system and I was unable to perform it with any facility. One day, my teacher cocked her head to one side and gave me an odd look, after which she asked me to sight-sing a piece that was much harder than our class' current level and she told me I didn't have to use solfegge. I performed that piece flawlessly, after which she looked at me and said, "Steve, you have perfect pitch." and I responded, "What's perfect pitch?" When asked the "moveable of fixed 'do'?" question, my usual response is that moveable do is an admirable attempt to make certain things at the beginning of a sight-singer's career easier but that, in the end, the things moveable "do" teaches must become second nature and that, for many of us, moveable goes rather quickly from help to hindrance as the difficulty of the music increases. If I need what moveable "do" is good at, I use numbers instead. A final story - students at the Mannes College of Music in NYC (of which I was one) were required to use the traditional fixed "do" system and also to learn to read in all seven clefs. (We were expected to use clefs to read orchestra scores at sight at the keyboard, among other things.) Most of what we had to do involved weekly assignments with specific metronomone markings, e.g., learn such and such a piece in the following clefs and at the following metronomone marking. The one exception to the metronome marking requirement was the book "Modus Novus," an atonal sight-signing text. While we were required to perform from Modus Novus regularly and, as always, conduct as we sang, we were specifically relieved from the requirement to do the weeks' assignment at a specific metronome marking - any steady tempo was allowed. Modus Novus was the only book during my student days at Mannes that I did not have to practice between classes, since I was able to read it at sight at a steady, albeit slow tempo, much to the consternation of many of my fellow classmates. :) -S- > -Original Message- > From: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > du] On Behalf Of Pandolfi, Orlando > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 7:44 AM > To: The Horn List > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental > > FYI > > There is a movement to change the "international" system, > prompted by the very strong current of digital music whereas > c1 is also referred to as c4. Great C now becomes C2 and so > on. This is becoming a source of confusion for those of us > who use the "old" system and Hans describes. Perhaps we now > need to be "bilingual". Not unlike fixed and movable "DO", > is it? I am wondering which if any solfegge system our Prof. > Pizka uses. > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:50 AM > To: 'The Horn List' > Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental > > > Hello Steve, > you initiated a confusion with your question, because mixing > naming the pitches (F)-horn-wise & concert-pitch-wise. So did > other. There is an international system, which applies to all > tonalities. > > The so called middle c is equal to c1 (or c´), which > represents the c on the first ledger line below staff. > Upwards we find c2 (or c´´) at 2nd space from top & c3 (or > c´´´) on the 2nd ledger line above staff. > > Going downwards we find "c" (small c, little c, low c) below > the 4rth ledger line below staff or at the 3rd space from top > in the bass clef, except in the old horn bass clef, where it > would be on the 2nd ledger line below staff. > > This is the "c" commonly referred to as "low c". > > But there is the fundamental again, also named the "great C" > or just "C", as capital letter. It is written on the 2nd > ledger line below staff in real bass clef. > > Sound wise (concert) we are in the "Contra octave" already, > as it will sound as ",F" - contra F. noted at the 4rth ledger > line in bass clef. > > As we "think" F-horn-wise, as horn players, we find, that the > lowest octave requires the combination of the 2nd natural > pitch of F, E, Eflat, D, D-flat, C & B-natural horn, so the > fingerings 0, 2, 1, 3, 32, 13, 123, before we reach the > fundamental of the Bb-horn & continue the same way down with > fingerings 0, 2, 1, 3, 32, 13 to reac
RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental
The common wisdom is if it is on the horn, it can be played, albeit not easily. If you consider the written "C" on the third space of the bass clef (modern notation) as being the first partial of the open F horn, then the fundamental is the written "C" below that, or the second ledger line below the bass clef staff. You then need to consider that there are six valve positions all of which extend the horn beyond that written "C" (concert F) fundamental, all the way down to the written F#, fourth ledger line below the bass clef staff (concert "B"). I found that when I fit a tuba mouthpiece shank OVER my leadpipe, those notes come out nicely! O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:06 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental I might be wrong, but as far as I know you can't play the notes below that on the Fside of the horn at all. Not in tune anyway. If you look at the fingering chart at http://thefrenchhorn.net/chart.html, you can see the fingerings for the notes below that are all on the B-flat side. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Kammermusik Workshop
Now is the time when many people plan their summer playing experiences. I'd like once more to draw your attention to the Kammermusik Workshop being held in Santa Fe, NM from July 24-31 this year. This woodwind "camp" - actually held in the unique and very comfortable Sunrise Inn and Retreat - is based on the wind quintet ensemble. There are excellent professional coaches on each instrument. The week includes private and group tuition, ensemble playing in quintet and other groups and several performances, including a final concert in the historic Sanuario de Guadalupe in central Santa Fe. The head coach is Lori Lovato of the New Mexico Symphony and founder of the New Mexico Wind Quintet. The workshop is hoping to expand this year (from 30-40 participants in past years) and hornists are particularly welcome! The web site www.kammermusikworkshops.org gives full details of the workshop which is run by a nonprofit corporation with a board of dedicated volunteers. The president, Keith Bowen, is always happy to answer specific questions [EMAIL PROTECTED] Now in the tenth year Kammermusik offers a unique musical and social experience. It has been usual for about 75% of the participants to return each year. I have attended this workshop for three years and have found it to be a really great musical learning and playing experience as well as a lot of fun. While in Santa Fe for that week each year I have had the chance to attend performances at the famed Santa Fe Opera as well. I would also be happy to answer any questions anyone might have. Sue Peeples ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental
FYI There is a movement to change the "international" system, prompted by the very strong current of digital music whereas c1 is also referred to as c4. Great C now becomes C2 and so on. This is becoming a source of confusion for those of us who use the "old" system and Hans describes. Perhaps we now need to be "bilingual". Not unlike fixed and movable "DO", is it? I am wondering which if any solfegge system our Prof. Pizka uses. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 2:50 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental Hello Steve, you initiated a confusion with your question, because mixing naming the pitches (F)-horn-wise & concert-pitch-wise. So did other. There is an international system, which applies to all tonalities. The so called middle c is equal to c1 (or c´), which represents the c on the first ledger line below staff. Upwards we find c2 (or c´´) at 2nd space from top & c3 (or c´´´) on the 2nd ledger line above staff. Going downwards we find "c" (small c, little c, low c) below the 4rth ledger line below staff or at the 3rd space from top in the bass clef, except in the old horn bass clef, where it would be on the 2nd ledger line below staff. This is the "c" commonly referred to as "low c". But there is the fundamental again, also named the "great C" or just "C", as capital letter. It is written on the 2nd ledger line below staff in real bass clef. Sound wise (concert) we are in the "Contra octave" already, as it will sound as ",F" - contra F. noted at the 4rth ledger line in bass clef. As we "think" F-horn-wise, as horn players, we find, that the lowest octave requires the combination of the 2nd natural pitch of F, E, Eflat, D, D-flat, C & B-natural horn, so the fingerings 0, 2, 1, 3, 32, 13, 123, before we reach the fundamental of the Bb-horn & continue the same way down with fingerings 0, 2, 1, 3, 32, 13 to reach the fundamental of the F-horn (Bb-horn plus 13 equals F-horn). If one uses the right equipment (mouthpiece not too tight & not too small in diameter), if one can control the low frequencies without just "farting", one might continue downwards on the F-horn until reaching "contra C" concert , our "great G", noted below the 3rd ledger line below staff in double bass bass clef (one octave below real bass clef or two octaves below horn bass clef old notation). It is quite clever to find relax in this "deep sea diving experiments", when the embouchure is getting stiff after high climbs. Steve, do not expect to hit these pitches on the nail in your early stage of horn playing. It is not necessary either. It might be much, much better to improve the middle range first. Leave the higher range (higher than g´´ on top of the staff) & the lowest range alone. The majority of horn players is not able to play a secure fundamental on the F-horn. Very few can enter directly with the fundamental & have to crawl down very slow to get it. And it is not found in the literature with extremely few exceptions (Suttner concerto reaches down to concert "contra E", noted as "contra B-nat." for F-Horn. Some Strauss operas require pitches at the bottom of the "great octave" or higher contra octave (concert pitch). BUT WE SHOULD STICK WITH THE INTERNATIONALLY UNDERSTOOD NAMING OF THE NOTES to avoid permanent confusion. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:26 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Playing the fundamental My understanding of musical instrument acoustics agrees with Paul. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
