Re: [Hornlist] Fireworks Music
Hans Pizka writes: Haendel used a notation system, which looks strange sometimes, as he wrote horn passages or parts in D tonality but notated them in concert pitch, except in Giulio Cesare, where the one pair of horns is in A the other in D, and in the 3rd act one pair in G plus one pair in D. Here he uses the horns transposing their clean parts (written with no key signature in front). The Fireworks music is really in strange notation, written in concert pitch (C 8va) with the key signature for D-major (2 sharps), while the horns read down for a fourth. But this was not the case then, when Haendel performed it. The horn players then were able to read the concert notation could follow the whole part easily, as they could not escape anyway. A real fourth exists just on few places on the natural horn, right. A real half step exists just between step 11 12 (f# g). So they could decipher parts quite easily, even much better than most horn players are able to do today. The musical universe of bygone centuries in many ways were simpler in matters of rhythmic complexity and of tonality, even if Johann Sebastian often was quite avantgardish on both matters. But compared to the scope of their musical universe musicians back then often were much more complete. Wind players often doubled on strings. Funny clefs were everyday fare. Musicians understood the inner logic of the music they played, even if they maybe were not virtuosos by the standards of today. I don't know, if Georg Friederich could play the horn, but both of his big out-doors suites certainly carry the proof, that he had a profound understanding of the partials of the non-valved brasses. If one approaches the horn from that angle, notation is a lesser concern. Even quite accomplished horn players can be caught unaware why both 1st and 2nd horn suddenly have to play unisono top staff F's in Vienna classical and early Romantic orchestral settings. The explanation is not that odd: it is the lowest representation of the sub-dominant root on natural horns. Transposition is regarded a problem by some. But only because they don't have a profound understanding of the diatonic scale system. If one can play all scales in all 12 available keys, then it is not that hard to move between diverse transpositions. As for complete musicians: Anne-Sophie Mutter has two obvious marketing assets. Some people even cherish her violin playing. But the way she really caught my interest was of a different nature: In a German TV feature she told of her ways of building a repertory. Her violin was not a tool in the early stages of that process. Her piano was. The way she handled her grand had med grasp for my dropping lower jaw, so that I wouldn't have to enter the field of mimicked orthodontic features. That lady simply is a real musician. Such ones also can be found in the in the modern horn world. But I am not that sure, that they will be found among those, who even have to express questions about transpositions. If anybody would dare to ask about my own field of expertise, that should not be kept a secret: I have become very good at growing calluses on my behind. Klaus ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
...but believe me, trumpets will play the pedal tones!! Sorry Scott, Looks like you'd better pour yourself a bowl of cornflakes and sit back. Trumpets will NOT play pedal tones. The only way a trumpet can play a pedal tone is if we were to change the definition of the term pedal tone. Let's not. You see, if you have three bean burritos and a large Coke for lunch you can simply wait for the right moment, stick a piccolo down the back of your shorts and demonstrate how the piccolo can play 6-ledger lines below the bass clef staff. But Scott, it wouldn't be a pedal tone. In the parlance of this (and any other) brass instrument list, words have meaning. Pedal tone has a meaning, and it is the fundamental of the instrument's employed length. This length can (of course) be changed by the use of valves. So here's one for you... CAUTION - THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT WILL USE AS-WRITTEN PITCHES. IF YOU CAN'T REFER TO AS-WRITTEN PITCHES ON A LIST OF NOTHING BUT HORN PLAYERS, THEN YOU NEED A NEW HOBBY: I CAN play the basement C that's been talked-up here recently. However, I cannot play the F-horn's fundamental C I can play the pedal F on the Bb horn, then go chromatically downward 'til I'm resting on the C (trigger, 1 + 3), but I cannot play that same pitch as an open note on the F-horn. Oh, once in a blue moon I can, but only about 3-times in 35 years. Trumpets do not play pedal tones, they play facetious notes, as outlined both in my burrito story and Professor Pizka's special word which I haven't looked up, but probably translates roughly to the English word f*rt. So, here's what I've noticed; feel free to disagree, but be sure to have your cornflakes on standby: Bb Trumpet - cylindrical, but can't play PT's (also, C, D, Eb and both A Bb Pic trumpets... NO PT's) Cornet - conical, but still no PT's Vienna rotary trumpet - MORE conical, but no PT's Flugelhorn - even more conical with tiny leadpipe, mouthpiece bore and smaller tubing, PLAYS PT's Eb Alto horn (and all its evil kin) - pedal tones out the wazoo... and sounds like it! Horn - conical to (ahem!) beat the band, Bb side does very usable PT's. F-side can, but it's tough to make a living at it Trombone - cylindrical, but plays PT's like a duck on a Junebug Bass trombone - James Bond of Pedal Tone Land. Players carry a special green card that reads, 007; license to f*rt! Tuba Euphonium - 'Pedal Tone' is our middle name! Have a nice breakfast! (kidding) jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: transposition
Hi Alan and Everyone, Alan's story goes right along with what I had to do for Christmas eve this year. I was hired to do a kind of a Transiberian Orchestra kind of church service. A rock band, string quartet and me playing on one side of a gymnasium (the church is new and does not have a building as of this time) and on the other side a Jamaican Steel Band. The person who booked the string quartet is a music teacher and when the music coordinator told her he wanted a hornist, she told him, you know that the horn is a transposing instrument? He said, yes! and proceeded to totally mess up everything I was to play. I went nuts trying to first figure out what he'd written, he had parts that were written below the cello, so I asked him if that is what he really wanted...He replied, no, but here's a rhythm score for the rhythm guitar, fake some parts from that... I had one piece, Andrew Lloyd Webber's Love Changes Everything that I had a 4 bar melody intro. The rock band was so loud and for lack of a better term Twangy...that I had a hard time hearing. It was the first piece we played before I knew the transpositions were messed up and played what was written. The singer started and quickly stopped saying I can't find my pitch...I quickly figured out the guy wrote the transposition wrong, and quickly upped everything a fifth...Then everything was ok...Just another story from the battle front. At least it paid well and made my Christmas very merry... Have a great day, Walt Lewis At 06:22 PM 1/13/2005 -0500, you wrote: A couple of years ago I signed up to play a brass ensemble Easter church gig. Most of the parts in my book were for Horn In F. But for the Hallelujah Chorus, I got the part for 2nd Trumpet In D (or some such key). No way around it -- I had to write out a Horn In F transposition, painstakingly, note for note. Except for a couple of phrases that I had to re-transpose down an octave, it worked OK to play the part on horn in place of trumpet. Even those down-octave phrases sounded all right in performance. Octave transpositions are so easy that I don't even think of'm as transpositions. -- Alan Cole, rank amateur McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/wlewis9637%40wowway.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
Ray Sonja Crenshaw wrote: Trumpets do not play pedal tones, they play facetious notes, As opposed to the Bass Trombone which plays faecetious notes? And the Mukkinese Battle Horn which plays Fictitious notes? I wonder if you meant this seriously? best Wishes, Benno ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
I wonder if you meant this (use of word facetious) seriously? Good morning, Benno, Have you the audacity to doubt my veracity, and to insinuate that I am engaged insidiously with wanton prevarication? Nah, I reckon not. The trumpet pedal tones referred to are not supported by the trumpet's acoustics, and are not true notes, but rather, just the flatulent bleatings of the player; sounds in which the trumpet is a most reluctant partner... but you already knew that. My tongue was firmly out-of-cheek when I described such sounds as facetious, which means: *** Facetious [adj] - cleverly amusing in tone; a bantering tone; facetious remarks; tongue-in-cheek advice *** I don't know this word faecetious but have to wonder if it's a non-American English spelling of the same word I employed. Now mind you, this fictitious word I know well, and it directly applies to my daring exploits on the horn! Back to your regularly-scheduled programming. jrc in SC ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Partials (hitting the fundamental)
Ray Sonja Crenshaw wrote: Good morning, Benno, Good morning to you, too! Have you the audacity to doubt my veracity, and to insinuate that I am engaged insidiously with wanton prevarication? No, I was just being fictitious. My tongue was firmly out-of-cheek when I described such sounds as facetious, Sorry, I mistakenly assumed you wrote it inadvertently for factitious, a word often used for notes which don't really exist on an instrument but the exact meaning of which isn't entirely clear to me. I don't know this word faecetious but have to wonder if it's a non-American English spelling of the same word I employed. In a way you are right, the American spelling of this word (which does not appear in any dictionary) would be fecetious best Wishes, Benno ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] My second horn lesson
Well, I've got a decade on you, and it doesn't get easier. The trick is--cheat. C is a piece of cake: use Bb fingerings on the F side. For Bb, of course, you use F fingerings on the Bb side. Concert bass clef: read it like it's treble in Eb, except add two sharps, not flats, and down an octave. For D, most of the notes are open, so play F12 and learn the exceptions, e.g. push the trigger for F at the top of the staff. Keep it up, and eventually you will be reading the key and not cheating. I'm not all the way there yet. Many will look down on this, but it's a way of getting there. Youngsters should just learn to transpose while their brains are more plastic than mine. Herb Foster --- Alan Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For instance, I am an old goat pushing 63 who can barely manage piece-of cake transpositions like Horn In E-flat and Horn In E. As for other transposition keys, fuggeddabowdit. (Good thing for me there are plenty of playing opportunties in concert bands brass quintets that don't often involve straying from Horn In F.) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: transposing
When I taught 5th grade, we did transposition right from the beginning. No problem, the students also did solfege, thus understood the functions, root, 5th etc. The real secret of teaching something like that (anything really) is to start with the sound FIRST, then show the student what it looks like later. Do it the other way round and you'll just have some very confused students. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Transpositions and National Melodies
There's one other sort of concern from what might be considered the opposite direction. My son doesn't like to think and he's got a very good ear - I regularly get reports back from school that he seems to be able to play everyone else's part on either the horn or the trumpet, and this is just from listening to it, not from reading and transposing. My son already sits around and plays songs he knows in different keys - the trick will be getting him to _read_ in different transpositions. I'm the same way - earlier today I tried playing some of the new-to-us horn duets I'd picked up last night in different keys but they were already in my ear enough that I really wasn't reading much at all. By the way, it's for people like this that, at Mannes, part of the program was reading the names of the notes out loud and in rhythm _without_ being allowed to sing them. It was also our main vehicle for learning and practicing clefs. I know there's a school of thought that says, well, if he can do it, who cares how? but I am not of that school since I think the by-ear approach will bite you in the behind once the music becomes difficult. -S- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] du] On Behalf Of Bo Gusman Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 1:17 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Transpositions and National Melodies Scott Pappal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes ... is to assign well-known folk or national melodies in various keys other than F. This way, a student knows when he/she has made an error, because they know how the melody should sound. Something as simple as My Country 'tis of Thee, Amazing Grace, O Tannenbaum, etc. will work with 9 yr. olds. A timeless technique, for sure. However, my wife, who teaches flute, and I (Horn and trumpet) are both finding that our students do NOT know many of the common and well-known melodies. Who would think that a 9 year old would not know Row-Row-Row Your Boat, or My Country 'tis of Thee, but it is sadly true. OTOH, ask them to sing the latest Britney Spears hit and they'll nail it. What value then? On a similar note: many years ago when my wife was working in a bank, she and another teller were talking about books. My wife, who was somewhat older than the other girls, mentioned Dr. Zhivago. The teller my wife was talking to asked, Who? My wife, sensing doom, turned to a third teller and asked, Do you know who Dr. Zhivago is? She replied, No, but I know he doesn't have an account here! Bo ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridaysc omputer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Re: transposing
Very refreshing to hear that, Steve. Prior to my playing and teaching in Rome, Italy, I supplemented my scholarship at Juilliard by being a teaching fellow in the solfegge dept. (Ear Training Dept., actually). When I got to Italy, I was amazed (and humiliated) by how much better at clef reading my students were than I, all of whom applied clef transposition to their horn playing. Of course, they also thought always in concert pitch, naturally reading normal F horn parts in mezzo-soprano clef. Their mental imaging of the proper key signature was second nature. The old school way works very well. William Vacchiano, the legendary principal trumpet of the New York Philharmonic, was a great advocate for number transposition, which first requires very fluid command of scales. He put numbers (scale degrees) to each written pitch and mentally applies them to the new key. He was quite brilliant at it. It works well for horn with the exception 9at least for me) of the occasional Wagner Opera which sometimes requires many changes in the course of a single piece. What I like most about clef transposition, is that you are always calling what you see the actual pitch that is sounding (minus accidentals). Half of my students in Italy had perfect pitch, partly I believe due to their ability to recognize any given line as DO (always fixed at C). O. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:55 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: [Hornlist] Re: transposing When I taught 5th grade, we did transposition right from the beginning. No problem, the students also did solfege, thus understood the functions, root, 5th etc. The real secret of teaching something like that (anything really) is to start with the sound FIRST, then show the student what it looks like later. Do it the other way round and you'll just have some very confused students. - Steve Mumford ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/pandolfi%40deerfield.edu ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] My second horn lesson
date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:49:32 -0800 (PST) from: Herbert Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] My second horn lesson Well, I've got a decade on you, and it doesn't get easier. The trick is--cheat. C is a piece of cake: use Bb fingerings on the F side. For Bb, of course, you use F fingerings on the Bb side. And, as Professor Schmutzig noted, for E horn all fingerings are the same except with der second valve held down. Jerry in the Woods ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Maybe Cleaning the Bore
Howdy, Y'All - I just ran a Spitball through my horn. I had forgotten what an absolute hoot it is. Now the horn is not only arguably cleaner, but has a thin coating of oil in the bore. Yeehi! Carlberg Carlberg Jones Guanajuato, Gto. MEXICO ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Pops suggestions
Hello horn gang - As you might remember from my last posting I am trying very hard to access a score and parts to the horn and orchestra version of Graziani's Haydn Variations. At this writing we have not found the parts. They are no longer in the Israeli Brass Woodwind stacks. This being said, what other suitable pieces do you recommend for a Houston Symphony Pops programs entitled Calssical knockouts? I am already performing the Una voce poco fa of Rossini from Barber of Seville. I need another short piece preferably in the pops vain but containing classical elements. The concert is in one month. Let me know what you think I should play. Thanks, William VerMeulen International Soloist and Recording Artist Professor of Horn - Rice University Shepherd School of Music Principal Horn Houston Symphony - Houston Symphony Chamber Players 5327 Dora St. Houston, TX 77005-1817 (713) 520-7234 (713) 818-4459 Cellular [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] audition pieces suggestion
Can someone there give me some suggestion ? I am to have a horn audition for entrance of 3rd year music school. The required piece is No.35 (first piece) of 60 selected studies for Frehch Horn by C. Kopprasch Book 2, and two pieces of my choices. The first piece of my choices is (intended to be) Prelude from Suite no. 1 for unaccompanied cello (BWV 1007) by J.S. Bach. ( | GDBA BDBD GDBA BDBD | ) My questions are: How do you suggest the 2nd piece of my choices? ( Though I can find a paino accompanist, I thought a piece without piano accoampny would be more simple to manage. ) Actually, I am hoping there is a modern piece for solo horn, that, though sounds difficult yet not too difficult.. And how do you think the piece of Bach? ( Is that piece good for audition? Or, better not choose that one, why...? ) Thank you very much :) : Old Horn Student : ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
