Re: [Hornlist] Greensleves
Many such problems are simply not having each instrument in tune in the first place. Several steps often ignored: 1. Since you apparently already have trouble matching pitches, start out by using a tuner. 2. Get each horn's open notes in tune with the ensemble's standard of pitch. (That is, set the tuner to that standard and tune written 3rd-space C on both sides of the horn.) 3. Now, check other open notes on each horn. (Do NOT change slide pull now.) If some are way out compared to other open notes on the same horn without changing slide pull, then the horn may well be mechanically out-of- tune with itself. This CAN be true for expensive, professional instuments, as well as for whatever they sell at Costco. In this case, sometimes a good repairman can help. 4. Assuming nothing in step 3 is beyond the ability of the player to humor in tune, repeat steps 2 3 with each valve held down, one at a time. (That is, test the written B, B-flat, and 3rd-valve-A arpeggios on the F side, and the written E, E-flat, and 3rd-valve D arpeggios on the B-flat side.) 5. Now try the 1-2 and 2-3 combinations (on both sides). Depending on the instrument, you will likely wind up pulling the 3rd-valve slide just a BIT more, and maybe the 1st, maybe not. Now, and only now, work on the problem notes. There's at least an even chance that the problem is gone. One final point: some inferior horns (and even some pretty good ones) exhibit different relative intonation (slide pull) at different levels of breath support. This is especially true between the F and B-flat sides of the horn. A symphony player will bring the sides of the horn in tune with a different main B-flat slide pull than a much weaker player on such an instrument. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am the second chair of four in a strong horn section in my high school symphonic band. We are playing an arrangement of greensleves arr. by Alfred Reed, and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how the first and second horns (myself and the first chair) can play the 18 count trebble fourth line up D in tune. we have practiced it, and we can both hit it well, it is just never in tune. she is palying a Conn 8D, and I am playing on a school-owned Jupiter that is not very good. the rest of the section also plays jupiters owned by the school. Thanks, Nicole ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Non-transposing mutes
Are you saying that some of your notes were stopped for 24 hours and then allowed to proceed? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ger O wrote So for some years I had the idea of developing a non-transponing stopping mute that can be used on both the F and Bb side of the my horn without transposing. It stayed with this idea, did not make time for realizing it. But in the last number of Brass Bulletin I read that a Japanese manufacturer is offering a non-transposing stopping mute. *** These non-transposing mutes sound great and are really convenient. Unfortunately the mute I tried was manufactured in Japan, and because of the shift in time zones between Japan and California, it made me play 24 hours behind the other members of my section on stopped notes. I could have transposed ahead by 24 hours to restore the ensemble, but this was just too much trouble. I didn't have the same problem with my Yamaha horn, but I think it was made in the US. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] rubbing with sand paper???
You remember the old saw about the kid in band who can't play a wind instrument, so they take it away and hand him two sticks? Then, later, if he can't do that, they take one away and he becomes a conductor? When he can't do that, either, they take away the remaining stick and give him a pencil. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder. What are the qualifications for 'critic'? ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brunelle%40acm.org ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Horn Buying
Another source for both new and used is Wichita Band Instrument. http://www.wichitaband.com/ A number of years ago, they could and would arrange factory visits into Holton and, I believe, Conn, and the prices were better than anywhere else, period. (And if you wanted either a Holton or a Conn, you certainly wanted to pick it out, since the consistency of manufacture was nothing like Yamaha's.) After a look at the website, I'm not sure their price advantage remains absolute, but they are indeed worth checking out. They will indeed ship on approval (you pay the freight, of course). I don't see either new Yamahas or Conns, but Holtons, Alexanders, and Paxmans. It appears they own a piece of Paxman. Used stuff is, of course, any make they happen to have. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, Im thinking of buying a horn for myself, Im a freshman in HS and I am playing on a repaired Holton H180 (in 8th grade i was playing on a Holton H179, the valves sounded like a percusion section.). I take lessons and such. I wanna buy a new french horn for myself, so I dont have to worry about the school taking it, and I dont want to play on something people have treated like crap. I was thinking of buying a Conn 8D with gold or rosebrass and a detachable bell, what model would that make it? Or a Hans Hoyer horn, (my lesson teacher is using one, and I lover her sound), but I dont know which model. There is one problem, my local music store doesnt have horns on shelf, or in there stock (there not gonna have $3000 instruments on shelf when they are not in demand down here.), so what they do is, they special order them for the serious customer, so I cant try them out. Niether can my lesson teacher. Are Conn 8D's and Hoyer Horns more consistent from horn to horn (same brand and model) now days, with our technology? Should I special order one? What are the chances it plays like a piece of crap? Also what other models of horns from different brands do you recommend that are good (and are very consistent from horn to horn, without trying them out) , and are within a $2500-$4200 price range? Your comments and advice will greatly be appreciated. Michael K. P.S. How are the Conn 8D horns nowadays (new, not old ones) and the Hoyers? And what model would a Conn 8D be if I wanted it in gold or rosebrass, with a detachable bell? Thank you. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brunelle%40acm.org ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Gold or silver
Gold plating also lasts longer than silver, in some cases by a factor of 10 or more. It also doesn't need to be polished, and therefore doesn't display the difference in lubricity that silver does between being polished and tarnished. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear all, Other than the appearance, do you think that gold-plated mouthpieces works differently compared with silver-plated mouthpiece for the same brand and model of mouthpiece? Quite a lot of brass players in my youth orchestra use gold plated MPCs. Which do you prefer, gold or silver plated? Simone ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brunelle%40acm.org ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Oil troubles
Have to pretty much echo this - Holtons were known for tight valves 40-some years ago. The factory was proud of how tight. They were also typically slow. Nothing new; it's often true of their best horns, and the fix is to have a GOOD repairman work on them. Sometimes you can get that from the factory, sometimes not. When it's done right, the valves work fast, don't leak, don't require much oil, and the job lasts a LONG time. A good valve job will bring SUCH a smile to your face! Also, a good repairman can increase the spring tension slightly, which some (myself included) prefer. You CAN indeed string the valves too tight, and this will slow them down. If you're using a good braided nylon string, adjusting won't be difficult. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 9/2/2003 7:44:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am having a problem with the valves of my new Holton 281. They are stiff when I get the horn out of the case to play the valves are stiff and slow. I oil them, and go on playing my normal practice for about an hour or so and when i finish I empty water and then I take it apart and put it back in the case. When i go to play the horn again the next day, I find that the valves are still stiff, so I oil again. I tried three different oils (Fat Cat, Al Cass, and Holton Rotary Oil) over the last few weeks and the only one that lets the valves move freely after one day is the Holton Oil. The oil works well, but the problem with it is that it is coming out of the bell in large amounts. I oiled the horn yesterday and today the valves are great, but over those two days oil had been coming out of the bell. I'm not sure what I can or should do about the problem, other than wiping out the bell when I feel oil in there. Is there anything I can do, short of searching the Middle East for a suitable oil? OK, first and foremost, you shouldn't be having these troubles. This is a new horn. I advise you take your horn to a competent repair tech who knows horns. No oil is likely to solve this problem for good. What can cause slow valves, and especially in new horns? 1. Grit. Grit suspended in oil (lapping compound) is used to fit the rotors to the casings. If any is left in after the manufacture of the horn it can work into the valves and cause slowing. Usually this is accompanied by a gritty or grinding sound when moving the valves. As the oil evaporates overnight, you lose any lubricating viscosity that suspended the grit and allowed the valves to rotate. Grit can also include dirt and build up from food particles in your breath or from slide grease embedded with grit. 2. Corrosion. This is caused by water in your horn corroding the metal. Holtons have a very unique and distinctive type of corrosion of both the rotors and casings when allowed to corrode. If corrosion is a problem, then the same evaporation of the oil will allow it to hamper the action of the valves. Corrosion acts somewhat like grit, except that it is integral to the surface of the valves. A proper chemical or ultrasonic cleaning will remove corrosion. 3. Poorly fitted or poorly made valves. If the valve is not rotating centered in the bearing surfaces, or if the bearing plates have come loose, then the valve will rub against a surface and slow. Oil may mask this for a time, but again evaporation will occur and the surfaces will rub. 4. Damage. Self explanatory. 5. Improperly strung valve. The valve string can cause slowing, but this will not go away with oiling. It might go away for a time with oiling the s tring. 6. Problem with the valve lever, lever hinge tube, or hinge tube screw. Not likely, because it would not go away with oiling the valve. If you are oiling your horn this much, then there is a problem. Take it to a technician. This might even be a warranty issue, so better to take it to a technician where you bought it. And be sure the tech is good on horns. Many brass techs don't know beans about proper horn valve action. Oh, and that business about a break in period for poorly working valves is baloney. A valve should work from day one. Finally, once your horn is cleaned and working properly be sure to empty the water and then oil the valves BEFORE putting it away. A coating of oil will prevent corrosion. Ken Pope will advise you to put a few drops of oil down the mouthpipe and blow it into the horn, as well. It couldn't hurt, and it may help. I have worked on over a dozen Holtons in the last month, many of them new or very nearly so. The valves on these instruments are as inconsistent as can be. Some are well fitted and work perfectly. Others are fit miserably, as are many tuning slides. As I've said many times, this is a direct result of the mass production techniques which demand high volumes and wide tolerances. The only way to eliminate these problems is to be sure that your headache rebounds to the
Re: [Hornlist] A few silly questions. Sily answers . . .
Robert Dickow wrote: I have some nagging questions: Let me help - although I really see nothing horse- related among these. (If you instead have questions ABOUT nagging - well, then, you really should consult an expert. Perhaps there are list subscribers who would volunteer a spouse . . .) (1) Does playing a double horn mean that you can crack twice as many notes compared to playing on a single horn? No, nor does it facilitate horn chords, because, alas, you only use one side of the double horn at a time. If you could find a way to use both sides at once, well, the mind boggles. (2) Do piston valves get better gas mileage than rotary ones? The possibiltity would exist, were the horn gas-powered. (Unless you eat LOTS of cabbage,) the horn is air-powered. (3) Why do horn sounds come out of my bell instead of bell sounds? Because the manufacturer omitted the clapper. You should be grateful. (4) Since cows have horns why don't we ever hear them playing the solo from Till? 1. It's an embouchure thing. 2. It's a little-known fact that cattle don't like Strauss - some grudge over the sheep in Don Quixote. ...and if they *could*, would it indeed still be considered moosic? That would depend on how much they covered with the right hoof. (5) How can it be possible for horn players to continue playing even after playing stopped tones? Apparently they stop ON the tone, almost like being stuck. (Hence certain pieces entitled Conzertstuck.) The skill of producing started tones has, admittedly, been neglected in the pedagogical literature. (6) Somebody said I might have a case for my horn, but the guy wasn't a lawyer so how would he know? You are confusing lawyer with somebody who knows something. The two sets may overlap, but there is no guarantee. Has your horn a case, you ask? Perhaps, depending on how badly you've injured it. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Re: Horn Digest, Vol 8, Issue 21
As an aside, I had the privilege once of hearing the CSO section perform this at Ravinia. What was memorable (other than the predictable excellence of the performance) was the canine choreography - someone's dog (I think it was a Golden) walked up on the stage and walked about among the performers while they were playing. The dog carried him/herself as a gentleman/lady and didn't jump up, lick, or bump into stands, etc. It was perversely utterly charming, and not a note was dropped. John Schreckengost wrote: Here are more specific details regarding the recording Daniel mentioned: Chicago Symphony Orchestra: The Solti Years From the Archives Volume 14 CSO CD99-2 The playing is phenomenal! John Schreckengost message: 12 date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:30:20 -0700 (PDT) from: Daniel Vidican [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: Re: [Hornlist] Concertstuck recordings? Try the Chicago Symphony Orchestra , if you can get the newest one( Gail Williams playing principal and it's a live recording ) I think it's called The Solti years a two cd's set ,or something like that , and the only place you can find it is online ,check their store, and the other one is a CD new release of the old recording with Dale Clevenger principal, called Chicago Symphony principals ( not sure about the title..) Hope this helps, Dan ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/brunelle%40acm.org ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
