[HornList] Valve Weight
> ...make a simple sketch of what... the rotor looks like inside > With the sketch, you'll have a place to notate the individual > dimensions as you estimate (SNIP!) *** Then Carl Bang said: > naked rotor weighs in at 2.3 oz Yep, that was pretty much what I was looking for. While it's a cinch to get weight charts for brass rod off the net, I didn't think I could get very close with figuring the port cutouts. The bloomin' things don't weigh that much to begin with, so being off a couple of ounces wouldn't be of much help. Thanks everybody, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Now HOLTON lead pipes...
I need a leadpipe for my Holton H-179. If you have one that you keep tripping over and that you've sworn to sell before one more year goes by, now may be your last chance. Let me know, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[HornList] Valve Weight
A, mates and maties! (insert vague, pointless pirate music soundtrack here) If any of you guys happen to have a valve rotor from double horn laying around, and you happen to see a postal scale sitting nearby, then you're who I'm looking for. Would you please stick a valve rotor on the postal scale and tell my how much it weighs? I realize the weight wouldn't be the same for all horns, but I'm thinking they'd be close... with the exception of the those tiny change valves on Conn 8d horns and their cousins. I could take my Holton apart and check this, but I'd rather not. However, if no one answers, I'm going to. Thanks, jrc in SC (who does, thank you, also work on his own car) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Vienna Sausage Links... Part II (SURVEY - calling all Pumpenhorn owners/players)
FIRST - KUDOS & THANK YOU: Thanks to the list for all the help with the German language Vienna horn website. The login request short-circuited my usual "inquisitive" (aka "hacker") nature, and I gave up too fast. I did get in, and found that it was the English translation of a page I'd already seen in German. Thanks to all who helped. And remember, they also serve who only stand and cheer. PUMPENHORN SURVEY: This is NOT just for owners, but also anyone who has PLAYED a Pumpenhorn long enough to get used to it and develop some thoughts concerning its strengths and weaknesses. As some of you may have noticed, I'm studying the Pumpenhorn and its derivatives. If you own a single F-horn with the tandem-style Pumpen valves, I'd like to ask a few questions. Of course, I wish this info for myself, but feel free to post to the list if think it's of interest. Otherwise, you can just reply directly to me. NOTE: Your participation in this survey is not a "read and delete" situation on my part. I intend to save & correlate all your replies in an effort to ascertain the nature of the beast. My immediate goal is to try to assign playing characteristics to the different "flavors" of the Vienna style of horn making. To learn WHY they play as they do, I must first get a feel for how they actually play or "feel." I'll then use your comments to assign a "character" to that taper style, hence this survey. In case you're wondering, I intend to use your information to (eventually) buy a horn. However, should it help to sway you away from apathy and toward participation, my interest in this subject goes FAR beyond mere commerce. Studying the Vienna horn has awakened the sleeping dragon of brass acoustics within me. Perhaps one day you'll own a horn with my name on it, assuming I can get my magic marker on your bell before you stop me. (joke, just a joke) This will not be published, and I'm really not even interested in your name. Supply it if you like, but it doesn't matter to me who you are. I realize that I may not get many comments from this list, but I have to start somewhere. If you own 137 Pumpenhorns then, by all means, feel free to either pick a favorite or else fill out lots of surveys. *** THE SURVEY SAYS: Now, assuming "as-written" pitches (not concert), here are a few questions: 1) What brand and model, and what (approximate) year of construction? 2) What strengths and weaknesses do you attribute to the horn? (What facets of your playing does it help? Which does it hinder? Feel free to compare/contrast with doubles, triples, other Vienna horns, etc, just be clear on what you're comparing to) 3) Does the horn feel "slotless" when compared to other horn-types you've played? (this refers to how strongly the partials "slot" into place. Some horns feel as if the notes "fall into the slots" as you slur across partials, others have "fuzzy" slots. "Fuzzy" meaning, the note is there, but feels as if you simply "arrive" at the next partial instead of stepping into a pothole.) 2) Is the open 2nd line "G" flat and/or featureless? (tell me how it feels, not what you've read) 3) Is the open "G" on top of the staff flat and/or featureless? (see above) 4) Name and describe any "interesting" notes, be they particularly good, or notably treacherous 5) Concerning the main tuning slide: Are the slide's entrance and exit legs different sized? (in other words, is the tuning slide part of the horn's initial taper? [think: "does the leadpipe's taper extends on through the tuning slide?"]) 6) Referencing #5: If your slide is tapered, does anyone have a "backwards" taper? That is, is the slide's entrance leg LARGER than the exit? 7) General thoughts on the Vienna horn (or horns) you've mentioned above *** Thanks, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Vienna Sausage Links...
Can anyone help here. I'm doing research on an ongoing "personal project" to learn as much about Vienna horns (in all their varieties) as I can and, being homebound, I must do this from my computer. The link below looks promising, but it requires a username, password, and domain. http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/english/research/wrinst/vhorn.htm I realize that there are just some places in the world where I'm not welcome, but most of them have at least met me before rejection sets in. >From the URL I can't tell what the site is even supposed to be (no ".edu, or ".gov" script to suggest exclusivity). The placing of the "vhorn.htm" snippet at the end is, to me, like waving fresh meat at a shark then asking him to tuck his linen napkin under his chin and then log-in before digging into the Schnitzel. Do any of you have access to this? ...and if so, could you tell me what's there without compromising the trust placed in you? jrc (down in SC, outside looking in) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Re: talented genes
> I doubt the influence of outside music when the baby was in mothers womb > The music I could have heard were the explosions of bombs & grenades Well then, that would explain everything! jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[hornlist] Alexander & Playing Impressions...
I recently had the pleasure of watching a DVD of the Berlin Philharmonic
playing Beethoven symphonies #4 and #7 (my favorites, particularly #7),
Abbado at the podium. There were, of course, two horns, but I state this for
clarity as I've seen (back in the 70's) many broadcasts of Beethoven
symphonies using four horns sharing the two parts.
Anyway, I noticed that both players used (what I know as) Alexander 103's
and I thought I'd get some input from those among us who play (or have
played) them.
I live in the USA and I've never played an Alexander except (one time) a
single Bb. What strengths and weaknesses does this horn possess?
1) Is the sound distinctive? If so, how? Bright? Dark? Complex?
2) How do the different registers respond?
a) lower (tubby, lifeless, lively, bright?)
b) middle (dark & heavy, light & shimmering?)
c) upper ("tight," "slotless," or in-between?)
2) Weight: Heavy? Light? In-between?
3) Is the "feel" distinctive? If so, how?
4) Open blowing? Stuffy? In-between?
5) How does it "handle" at high volumes? (suddenly stuffy? brash? focused?
apparent "never-ending" volume?)
6) How is the level of craftsmanship?
I realize that these are all subjective measures, but assuming that I've
played Lawsons, Holtons of all stripe, a few Conn 8D's, a Rauch (though
briefly), a Geyer-wrap Yamaha (whatever that model is; 667V?), a Kruspe-wrap
Yamaha, and a couple of piston-thumb valve Schmidts, what would I think of
an Alexander 103?
Does this horn have similar characteristics to the Alex model 90 single-Bb
(in gold brass) that I played years ago? I remember Professor Pizka saying
that he was pretty much surrounded by 103's in his opera orchestra, and
this, along with seeing the Berlin Philharmonic DVD made me realize that
I've never played an Alex 103 double and have no earthly idea of where they
stand among their colleagues.
And perhaps refreshingly so, your *opinions* are welcome here... at least
within the scope of this question. You may think I'm ugly, but don't be
disappointed if it doesn't change my opinion of the Alexander.
Thanks, this should be much cheaper than my buying one to find out.
jrc in SC
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[Hornlist] Re: Videos of lip motion while playing
I went to http://world.altavista.com/ and pasted in this URL: http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/deutsch/wrinst/wrhorn1.htm ...and asked it to translate German to English. Very enlightening! From this I learned of, "the necessity stand to co-ordinate in the high situation the lip tension more accurately in order to avoid 'Kiekser.'" While I doubt "Kiekser" translates directly to "clams," I'd be willing to bet it's close! BTW: What is a good DIRECT translation of the word? For instance, "clam" doesn't directly mean "cracked note," but we employ it as a metaphor. I'm wondering what the real meaning of "Kiekser" is. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Is it worth it to have your caps engraved?
> I have been thinking about getting my valve caps engraved for a while now Stacy, after the recent tuning slide fiasco, PLEASE tell us you mean the ones on your horn. *** > also appears very contemporary Have you considered piercing as an alternative valve-cap tattooing? just tryin' to be helpful. jrc PS: My wife's Lawson (not Johnson) has smooth valve caps. I was thinking about having them engraved for her, but when I met Walter Lawson I noticed that he was VERY proud of the valve caps "engine-turned" appearance, a finish he'd worked hard to develop there in his shop in the Maryland woods. So, since he likes them that way, we decided to leave them as-is. Still, I like the engraving thing... on a horn. Hey! Why not have little anchors etched on them? Cool ice-breaker at those otherwise boring change-of-command ceremonies! ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mark your valve slides
> During tacets you can learn how many millimeters there > are in an inch just by fooling around with your slide Maybe, but remember the trouble PeeWee Herman had over this? And while it it may not increase your circle of friends, you should at least be able to tune until you need glasses. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] - Name That Brahms Piece...
I recall reading a Dennis Brain biography years ago in which there was a picture of Dennis and (I think) Norman del Mar, from their Royal Academy days. They are standing out in front of an orchestra and, if I recall correctly, playing a Brahms piece. The question, what Brahms work would feature two horns in such a way that they would be out front? Could be tricky question these days as I recently watched a DVD video of Rattle & Berlin doing Mahler's 5th, and in this performance the principal horn stood out front as a soloist. Though I've long been an advocate of orchestra players being documented on record jackets and generally getting more exposure, I never thought I'd see a performance of "Mahler's 5th Horn Concerto with incidental orchestral accompaniment." Anyway, back to Brahms. What was the piece in the Brain biography? I may know the piece, and may even have it in my collection of recordings, but have never seen a "two horns out front" Brahms orchestral work. Perhaps it was not Brahms, in which case, can anyone tell me what the piece from the Brain biography was? ...and while I'm typing, is there a nice 10-12 minute work (by one of the masters) for orchestra and chorus that features the horns? jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Mark your valve slides
> Perhaps next time asking, when should I slide off my > pants, pants & underpants, before sitting down on the > toilet or between or after Dear Professor, I slide them off "before," but then, perhaps I'm simply exercising my right to be creative. I've always been an iconoclast, preferring to remain on the F side all the way to G above the staff. After this exchange, I think I shall retire to my chamber and practice my "before" now. jrc PS: This morning, I had the best practice session I've had since I quit playing back in 1984. For months now, I've been playing my father-in-law's old Schmidt single F horn. Nice sound and feel, but I'm afraid to clean out the mouthpipe as the crud in there may be the only thing holding the brass molecules together. BTW: I'll be putting my money where my mouth is by playing this F horn in the next concert, since I don't have to play above that written "G" above the staff. Rehearsals have gone well and Music Director has approved, so I'm all in for it. I've played entire concerts on the F side of a double, but this will be the first time I've ventured out on stage without the "safety net" of a Bb trigger. Now, all those Huge-Throated ThunderCannons that sit around me sound like "fog creeping over the moor." (bonus points to anyone who can remember who the preceding quote is attributed to) ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] As G & S Spin Wildly ...
> And as for Paterson, let's think up some punishment that fits the crime I know: Let's have him disinherit his unborn son! James Ray "We're Merely Wide Awake, The Moon And I" Crenshaw ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] As Gilbert & Sullivan Spin Wildly In Their Graves...
I recently asked here whether G&S's "Mikado" had two horn parts. You guys assured me that it did, and I thought I'd remembered that same thing, but since there was no 2nd player to play it back then, I had done it alone. Well, back when I wrote to ask, my wife (also a horn player) had just snagged a gig doing "The Mikado" in a town about an hour's drive away. I figured if they had the second part then I'd just offer to ride up and play for free, while also snagging a cheap date with a good-lookin' redheaded horn player. The music came in the mail yesterday and, guess what? Right on the cover it reads, "Arranged for small orchestra by Martin Paterson." "So," you might well ask, "What constitutes a 'small orchestra' in the mind of this Paterson chap?" I'm glad you asked: Flute, Violin, oboe, clarinet, Horn, bassoon, double bass, percussion and piano. Not only is there no 2nd horn part, this group is going to have to try and pull off the lively, "Three Little Maids From School Are We," without a trumpet! I haven't played (or heard) "Mikado" since the mid-70's, but the play was chock-a-block full of tasty little horn licks that I still recall to this day. So, I opened up my wife's book to check out a few of these neat parts, like those that accompany the opening moments of Act II, namely, "Braid The Raven Hair," and (my favorite from the show), "The Sun Whose Rays." All gone, reduced to pap and pabulum. Oh, the tunes are there alright, but "The Sun Whose Rays" has exactly SIX notes in it. Twelve if you count them twice to account for the second verse. What there is left of the horn part I remember is so miniscule that I had to look through the book twice to find some notes above written 2nd line "G." Yes, I'm disgusted and yes, I'm ranting. Yes, I know why it's condensed. And "NO," I don't agree, but yes, I know ranting won't change anything. But thank you for thinking of me during my time of need. The G&S works aren't exactly the bl**dy full-blown Ring Cycle; they're already condensed, for pity's sake! I'm finished now, back to your regularly scheduled programming. jrc PS: I hereby blow this Paterson chap a big, gooey Internet raspberry. (Ok, so maybe I wasn't finished) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Chewing-embouchure problem
> You can try several things to eradicate unwanted twa-twa As a matter of addition (NOT disagreement!), Dave Krehbiel used to use a neat little ditty to work this out of one's playing. It assumes at least SOME ability to double-tongue, so is not of much use for beginners. It is, however, a great "diagnostic" tool for good players who are stumbling because of a bad habit. Dave had a host of the little exercises that he had me do, all very simple and illuminating. He'd use a "simple thing, hard to do, and done badly" to shine a light on the problem. The exercise mentioned above went thusly: 1) with metronome set to around 140 or so, play one 4/4 (we'd start at written 1st space F) measure consisting of: four sixteenths followed by a quarter, four sixteenths and another quarter. Double-tongue the 1st set of sixteenths, then single tongue the second set and have them match EXACTLY. ta-ka-ta-ka TAH, ta-ta-ta-ta TA, ta-ka-ta-ka TAH, ta-ta-ta-ta TA (the preceding is two 4/4 measures, totaling 8-beats) We'd do two adjoining measures of this, then stop. Then up a half-step (to F#), then do it again. If you (or your teacher, or???) can hear a difference between the double and single-tongued sixteenths, then you need stop and work it out. Also, you may drop the metronome reading back just a bit, but if you can't get a clean single tongue north of 120, then you may be looking at part of the problem: Too Much Stuff Moving. There are likely other ways to do this, but Krehbiel's exercises were very informative and simple. The fact that he was sitting beside me and demonstrating may have helped me along. Say, where is he these days? I lost e-mail contact with him about a year after he retired from SanFran. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Christian Lindberg playing the Mozart Horn Concertos (a surreal study in circuitous logic)
> I'm probably not a "true" professional musician according to your > standards but rest assured I won't lose any sleep wondering about > how the "true" determination is made One meaningful measure worthy of consideration might be that, over the course of several decades, people have been anxious to pay for expensive tickets in order that they may hear you play a solo. I'm not Q-U-I-T-E there yet. Your post smacks of Postmodernist "nothing is true, everything is relative" thinking, but I'm not trying to label you, just making an observation. If, in turn, my message smacks of "12th grade redneck journalism," then you're entitled to your opinion... which, in this case, would be right on the money, for that's what I am. *** > Honesty and kindness aren't mutually exclusive character traits > although you are doing well at disproving that Your horse breaks a leg in the desert. Kinder to shoot it in the head, or leave it to fend for itself? If I were your horse, I'd try asking for mercy, but I'd be more than willing to grab your gun and do it myself. *** > When you show me a scientific study about the "brain constellation", > I'll read it When you show me the scientific difference between my Strauss 2nd and Hans's, you'll have it to read! *** > Until then, I find your theory suspect, your self-proclaimed prowess > as a professional musician not withstanding "Self-proclaimed?" The fourth line of your mailing address is where you fill-in your planet of residence. Please read yours aloud to us so we'll know which one you're from. If Herr Pizka's prowess is "self-proclaimed," then Yuri Gagarin was a self-proclaimed astronaut. Surf over to Pizka's website and find the "I Hear A Huntsman" soundfile with soprano and strings. Yes, he cuffs a note, but this was no "run it over-and-over 'til you get it right" studio recording. Pizka walked out on stage, planted his feet, and stuck his head in the mouth of the lion... and within the first few bars of the music, the lion lays down. The horn's blending, with both the strings AND the voice, goes right to the edge of what's even POSSIBLE on a brass instrument. It wasn't technical prowess that got him there either, though that ability was certainly evident. There are others who can play it louder, some can play it faster, some might even take it up an octave while waving their Mr. Spiffy around for the audience to admire. And don't get me started on those American orchestras who've lately been having a brass-sanctioned Blast Orgy. I wrote a (private!) review of a recent Philadelphia television broadcast (called "The Philly Review") in which they played... beautifully. This was in stark contrast to a recent recording by a famous US orchestra (or "once-famous" if you ask me) that I used as a point of reference to illustrate how the mighty have fallen. But for the duration of the "Huntsman" piece, Pizka keeps his pants zipped. And if you can somehow find a way to forgive his complete lack of weenie-waving skills, you'll find that he more than compensates by ACTUALLY BLENDING AND PLAYING MUSIC. I am an utter and complete "nobody" and I have this opinion. But I'll say this: If horn playing like Pizka's "Huntsman" ever goes out of style, I'll find something else to be interested in. My mother's Alzheimer's disease is now to the point that she no longer recognizes me. And so, as I am to her, much of "professional" music is becoming to me. It's all too often these days that I hardly recognize it. Still, even though I sometimes find it missing from where it should be, I occasionally find it where I never would've thought to look. My wife and I (we're both hornplayers) recently were hired as "ringers" for a very good high school orchestra. The chorus was doing Rutter's "Requiem," and they needed more stability in a few sections than an all-student group would have given. So, we showed up, expecting to walk through the evening and pick up a check afterwards. Not that we didn't't plan to play well; we DID plan, and we also practiced our parts together so that, no matter WHAT went on around us, we were going to play well, blend, sound good, ebb and flow together, and, above all, be proud of our work. Beyond that, we didn't expect much. We were wrong. There was a young lady (soprano) in the chorus who stood behind us, and let me tell you; if I'd known what I was in for, I would've paid the school a hundred bucks for the honor of sitting in front of this girl, instead of the other way 'round. I've played in support of several famous singers, but that was always from a distance, back in the horn section while the singer was out front. But never in my life have I stood so close to someone--anyone--through whom so much music flowed like warm honey from a flask. I've always played 1st horn wherever I've been and, sadly, this is what I've missed by not being in a section of those water-walking horns. Being only 17-years old, she certainly must have lacked some of the "seasoning" tha
[Hornlist] collected thoughts (though becoming diffuse...)
> On the subject of mellophones - despite what you see in the catalogs, > a true mellophone looks like a backwards horn with piston valves Are you familiar with the "concert horn?" I have one of those. In fact, I posted a story about it here recently... so I won't again. Mine is made by Alexander, (yes, THAT Alexander) and appears to be made to the same standards as their horns, and from mostly the same parts. Short "button" valve-spatulas with rotary drum-springs, same valve-set as an Alex single. Beautifully-made, high-quality parts, lovingly assembled. Hand it to a 10-year old, bearded fat kid and it looks like Alan Civil's signature Alex single Bb... only it's stuck in Eb. I thought about ripping the valve-set out of it and building a single Bb horn around it. Enough! Nap time. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] schmid horns
> Any thoughts on comparing the two, e.g. ***resistance*** NO!!! Somebody SHOOT me! jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Joining The Vienna Underground... (last go-'round' for Lawrence Yates's Pajamas)
> jrc in SC has given some quite vivid and understandable analogies
Why, thankya. Thankya vurry mush...
***
> I'm afraid the concept is flawed, however
You are absolutely correct. I've been working on this all weekend, and the
key was in something Herb Foster said. I didn't try Herb's test immediately
as my small view of the subject had caused me to place it into the "I'll do
that later" pile of my triage. Anyway, Herb hit the nail squarely on the
head with his "impedance" test. How do I know? Glad you asked.
Because that's what I spent all weekend working on. Knowing "impedance" as
an electrical term, I called my electrical engineer/college professor buddy
and asked him to get himself over here and pull up a chair down here in my
SkunkWorks Labroom so I could question him within an inch of his life. He
did, and... well, we spent all evening discussing theoretical scenarios with
me soaking up all the electricity theory I could hold on to concerning the
concepts of resistance and impedance. Before we started, I told him that my
intention was learn all I could from him on the electrical end of things,
then take that knowledge and try to apply it to acoustics. Kids, don't try
this at home! On the other hand, please DO try it at home. Here's why.
In four hours last night, I learned more than I could've previously imagined
existed on the subject... and I've only scratched the surface. About halfway
through our discussion, a light came on. It was a light that was Big and Red
and In My Head. That light said,
"You dummy, Foster was right!"
Well, I never thought he was "wrong," but looking back, I was critiquing the
Mona Lisa while looking at a black & white picture of the frame. I just
hadn't seen the whole picture.
Yep, after learning about how impedance and resistance react with varying
current and frequency loads, (do NOT think that I'm saying I've mastered
these subjects) it hit me that Herb got it right. "Impedance" really is the
correct term for what we brass players call "resistance." I'm not saying we
need to change the terminology (things are named what we call them), but I
think it helps to know WHAT WE'RE CALLING "RESISTANCE." This "workingman's
resistance" has a name, and it's IMPEDANCE. Of course, we hornplayers can
(and will) still say "resistance," but since studying impedance, I have a
clearer idea of where this resistance comes from.
A Brass instrument's resistance to having "just air" blown through it is NOT
the resistance we feel when playing. In fact, though resistance and
impedance are certainly kin, in certain situations (like Herb's test) we can
prove to ourselves that Simple-Resistance gives us NOT A CLUE as to what the
actual playing resistance will be like. By the way, I just made up the term
"Simple-Resistance" for the sake of (within this message) differentiating
simple "blown air" (aka: Simple-Resistance) from the "actual playing" kind
(Impedance). In the case of Herb's easy-to-do test, Simple-Resistance is not
even the primary source of the resistance we feel. Now, just to keep Herb
honest, I tried the same experiment on a trumpet and got the same
results. To wit...
TEST #4:
Take a Bb trumpet ("...Please!" ), and remove the 3rd valve
slide. Play an open 2nd-line G (as written for the trumpet, actually concert
F) and note the Horn-Resistance (that is, the level of resistance you feel).
Next, press the now-open 3rd valve and play the same pitch. MUCH more
resistance. At this point, you've noticed the extra Horn-Resistance and your
question should be, "But what did we actually do?" Glad you asked. We
REDUCED the trumpet's length by around 30%, but got MORE resistance. The
trumpet is now pitched in F (an octave above F-Descant horn pitch, by the
way), and the previous 4.5 foot length Bb length is now down to 3-feet!
Still, we feel MORE resistance to playing, not less.
The reason? The shorter tubing means there's (as you'd imagine) LESS
Simple-Resistance, but the length of tubing we're using--at that pitch, at
that volume--has a MUCH GREATER Impedance. That is, this abbreviated trumpet
plays with much greater Horn-Resistance. (recall that I used this term to
mean "the resistance a brass player actually feels while playing")
Here's the kicker, then I'll be quiet: That overbearing stuffiness we feel
when tooting a 2nd-line G through the trumpet's open 3rd valve slide can
change dramatically with (I know) frequency or (I suspect) volume. Played
two octaves higher, this abbreviated trumpet could (would?) suddenly
"open-up" and become free-blowing. The level of Horn-Resistance we feel when
playing seems to be tied to how close we are to the utilized tubing's
resonant frequency. The open 3rd-valve test asks the utilized tubing to get
involved in a resonance that doesn't interest it AT ALL. You're demanding
this length of tubing to host a waveform that is not close-enough to the
tubing's resonant frequency, or "sweet spot."
So, it appears to me that a Vienna horn sacrifices j
[Hornlist] Joining The French Resistance (long, but new medication is wicked, must stay "occupied")
> What we horn players call "resistance" engineers call impedance Herb, you've sent me to the dictionary. Not exactly to see what "impedance" means, but to make sure that my "head definition" is indeed accurate. For the purposes of the following drivel, I'm going to coin a couple of new terms; 1) "Horn-Resistance" will refer to that backpressure or "resistance to blowing" we horn players feel when we play a horn, to as to differentiate it from a textbook engineering term, which I (we?) may have commandeered. Feeling a lot of "horn-resistance" makes us call that horn "stuffy," while a horn displaying very little of it often referred to as, "open," or "free-blowing." Organizing horn-resistance on a "most-to-least" scale, the Pumpenhorns I've played have had the most resistance I've felt in a horn, while a Reynolds Contempora (Bb/F double) I occasionally played while I was in the Air Force had--by far-- the least "resistance." There may be other horns that are more, or less, "resistant" to being blown through, but these are my personal hallmarks. The "resistant to being blown through" is my "head" definition of what "resistance" means to me, and I think it's interesting to note that I've read the read and heard this concept expressed on this list many times, and have never gotten the feeling that anyone harbored any different idea as to what it meant. There seems to be a silent consensus on the point. 2) "Horn-Impedance" stands for what I think is a different (though related) concept, that being the player's perception of how rapidly a given horn is able to "speak." Several factors come into play; the horn's weight and/or metal-type (yellow brass, gold brass, bronze, etc), both of which affect the horn's own resonant frequency (yes, it has one. have you checked yours? I have, by "ringing" it with a rawhide hammer), but I have a feeling that much of the perceived "horn-impedance" is due to our having to control the horn's HUGE internal volume of air (fill one with water and see how much it holds) through a soda straw-like mouthpiece and leadpipe. Bear in mind, there's more than simple volume to work against; we must exercise control over a long, thin "string" of air that is the horn's internal volume. And while the total internal volume would is of interest here, even more important is the SHAPE of that volume: A Bass trombone's volume is short and fat, a horn's long and thin. Placing a double horn into Bb makes it the same length as a bass trombone but, for our purposes, that's where the similarity ends. In my mind, I've always thought of the two terms as usually--but not necessarily--related. Perhaps, as they relate to the horn, resistance and impedance are the same, but I'm just not convinced... yet. Imagine a horn with tuba-like tubing dimensions, but pitched in a descant horn's key of F-alto. The total internal volume might be the same as a regular F horn, but wouldn't the "horn-impedance" be MUCH lower on this weird, theoretical hybrid? It would be the short, fat volume as opposed to the horn's long, thin one. Notes would speak instantly on this monster and it would feel very free-blowing, but it would also sound like Dino the dinosaur blowing Professor Pizka's ship's horn, but that's beside the point. VIRTUAL TEST: Think about this: First, let's take a virtual look at two differing tubas that happen to be in the same key and then we'll later compare them to the horn. Let's say that one Bb tuba feels (plays) "stuffy," while the other is very free-blowing. In fact, the free-blowing tuba might have less resistance than a French horn (based on the manner in which we employ the word "resistance" here), but I think BOTH these tubas will have a much higher impedance than the horn. I think this is because of the extra tubing length, and that this is only partially-related to the perceived resistance. Analogy time... FRANKLY MY DEAR, I DON'T GIVE A: Drill a small, threaded hole at the bottom of a dam. (caution: don't try this at home unless you own a dam and happen to be very stupid... in which case, I guess it would be alright to proceed). Install a faucet into the hole, then screw a 3-inch long garden hose onto the faucet. Now for... RESISTANCE Vs. IMPEDANCE TEST #1: Using very rapid wrist movements, turn the faucet on-off-on as fast as possible. Notice that little "staccato" spurts of water will shoot out the hose end. A group of staccato squirts (the oboe section?) has been introduced into the 3-inch garden hose, and that same series of staccato squirts (minus just a little clarity, but not much) have emerged from the other end of the hose. Due to the garden hose's small diameter, the resistance was fairly high for such a short pipe. This small diameter was the main resistance to flow, but note that, due to the still-crisp staccato output, impedance (as I think of the word, not necessarily it's textbook definition) was actually quite low. Now you have a baseline measurement of resistance Vs. impedan
[Hornlist] Christian Lindberg
> ...he asked me to play the two muted phrases in the last > movement as he did not have time to get a mute in himself!! Why would want a mute in himself? jrc (who, just this morning, shot a bear in Lawrence Yates's pajamas) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Viennese Horn on Ebay.de
> Would someone please be kind enough to explain to this horn novice
> the difference between a "Vienna" horn and a regular horn?
Sure, here you go:
This one starts with a neat, readable history of the Vienna horn, then goes
to the historic players and the Vienna school of playing, all in one nice,
big readable page:
http://www.andrewpelletier.com/vienna.htm
Pay close attention to "the taper," and don't cast this off as "probably
unimportant." The Vienna horn evolved into a slightly different instrument
than what most of us are used to and, like the duck-billed platypus, it is,
in some ways, similar to its kin (other mammals), but in other ways, seems
to be from another different planet.
***
Now, don't go to this next site until (if you're like me) you have PLENTY of
time. A fellow could get lost in all the neat sound files, player histories,
etc., that Professor Pizka makes available to us:
http://www.pizka.de/VIENNESE.htm
Now that I've said that, perhaps he now knows who's responsible for his
site's monthly bandwidth having recently spiked.
***
> In particular, is playing a Vienna horn any different than
> playing a "normal" horn?
Well, yes and no. Written second-space "A" is still 1&2, so you could
immediately play one without grief. However (I'm no expert, but I have
played a couple), owing to several of the horn's key dimensions being
"different," there are things you need to know about playing one. These
differences are readily discovered by just playing it, but I'm assuming you
don't have one in the closet (and neither do I) else you would've just
played it rather than bothering to ask. So...
Professor Pizka has outlined the major differences, so the only differing
perspective I bring to the table is that, unlike him, I've spent years NOT
playing one. So, here goes...
Like a Flugelhorn starts smaller than (but ends up about the same size as) a
trumpet, the Vienna horn starts smaller than (but ends up about the same
size as) a "regular" horn. Remember that "taper" thing? As the "regular"
French horn is to the trombone family (more conical), the Vienna horn is a
little more of the same.
I recently some time with a Ganter double horn (shares DNA with a Vienna
Pumpenhorn, and even more with Prof Pizka's "Pizka Classic" as I understand
it: http://www.pizka.de/PizClasHr.htm), plus, I just feel like typing
tonight.
The Ganter I played was a Geyer wrap double horn (F-Bb, change valve on the
BOTTOM of the stack) but with a Vienna single-F type of taper. Some Vienna
horn hallmarks present on this double are: hand-hammered bell with garland
or "kranz," a larger-than-you're-used-to-but-standard-Vienna-style
mouthpiece receiver, rotary-valves with mechanical valve linkage (no
strings), slightly smaller-diameter and VERY SOFT & THIN bell (though I
didn't measure it), clever and elegant wrapping of the tubing (the tuning
slides are overlapping, one-inside-the-other), incredibly well-built
(archeologists will unearth this thing in 10,000 years, oil the valves, and
play!), even the little hardware bits and pieces are of stunning quality.
Better screws and valve caps do not make a better-playing horn, but it would
sure make for a lot of pride of ownership, knowing that the builders cared
so much for even the small details. Even valve and tuning slide fit feels
like space shuttle parts as they move. Hold on, here's where I spill the
catsup on your caviar...
Because of the above-noted dimensional differences, certain notes are...
u, "different." Written 2nd line "G" is guaranteed to NEVER suffer from
sharpness. This may vary a tad from horn to horn, but it's always there.
Just like on a "regular" horn, but a little more so. I found I could favor
it ("lip it up" is much too strong a term) without much thought, but when in
doubt, 1&3 on either side of the horn allows you to blow kisses to the
strings while you sit on this note.
The following may be too much of a generalization, but I found that whatever
you don't like about a certain note on a "regular" horn, there's a little
more of it to not like on a Vienna-style horn. However, it is playable. The
F-side is solid at least to somewhere around the top of the staff... maybe
higher. I'm sure it plays well above that, but let's just say that you have
to PLAY it up to the top "C," 'cause it sure ain't gonna hold your hand on
the way to the top floor.
I've heard that high-C is a bit squirrelly if you go for it on the open F
horn, but Prof Pizka tells me 2&3 will calm it down. To be honest, I never
kissed on first dates, and these days I don't judge exotic horns on the
first thing that comes out when I shoot at a note. For this reason, I didn't
kiss the high-register often enough to pass any judgments on it. I found the
Bb side to be better than I was lead to believe it would be; fine up to the
written "G" that sits upon the treble clef staff like the harvest moon
rising over lake Woebegone. Above that, I wouldn't dare blame any horn for
my shortcomings..
[Hornlist] Theoretical Keys? (Undocumented Minors Must Be Accompanied By An Adult Key Signature)
>...while you probably aren't looking at a key _signature_ of 9 > flats, you're certainly playing in that key (at least) one stands and claps... *** > I don't think the idea of visiting key signatures with more than seven > sharps or flats is at all out of line but I likely wouldn't make students > responsible for these keys signatures theory professor to music class... spoken in one machine gun-like spicatto phrase: "NowClass,WouldSomeoneLikeToTrySpellingTheNeapoliton6thInTheKeyOfCb-MinorWrong!" jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Horn resistance (not "Resistance To The Horn)
> Prof. Pizka, I know you are close to retirement, but had no idea that > you were so old as to remember what a dinosaur farting sounds like Wrong pronunciation of the word "Dino" there, Fred. I think Prof Pizka refers to Fred Flintstone's dog. Even I am old enough to remember the family pet. When the Flintstones had company, Fred would f*rt, then beat Dino... which I always considered to be a rather (Hannah)Barberic display violence. jrc in SC PS: On that other "resistance" subject, I wonder if the Professor thought I was implying resistance was to be avoided. I've heard that sentiment on the list here, but as for me, I *like* some resistance in a horn. I've heard from some (on this list) who do not. And while I'm not sure why there would be no consensus on this "resistance" issue, I have to think that perhaps a person would like whatever he was used to, be it better or worse. Someone who played an "extremely stuffy" horn would hate a "somewhat stuffy" one for being too open. I reckon that's what makes a horse race. At the Hartford, Connecticut IHS workshop (circa '78 or so... speaking of dinosaurs!) I had breakfast with Bob Paxman. Shyness would prevented me from sitting with him, but he saw I was alone and he ASKED me to. So, I did. After being seated, he seemed willing to "talk shop," so I asked about Alan Civil's clanking, wheezing Alexander Bb. "Surely he can afford to have you rebuild the valves?" Mr. Paxman said that he'd tried to get Alan to let him rebuild the Alex's valves, but that Alan had played it for so long, and was so used to it, that he was afraid to let a repairman around valves for fear that he wouldn't be able to play it once it was fixed! Do I get a prize for writing a PS longer than its accompanying letter? ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] having cake and eating same
> Put yourself in the young man's shoes. How would you feel? Confined... and possibly smelly. jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Now On-Topic [was: OT (but only a bit)]
> For those less informed I've been called worse *** > ...the problem of bends in an instrument has two aspects > One is simply air flow, which will respond to straightening > curves the same way unkinking a hose will I've heard that applied to horns, but I have to wonder. With the main tubing being nearly 1/2" ID, then suddenly getting HUGE after the valve section, it seems to me that a great deal of the horn's resistance is not the bottleneck(s) around the valves, but rather the tiny leadpipe. I'm not saying that valve-kinks make NO difference, but I don't see it as being all that much. Pressing all three main valve levers adds several feet of (cylindrical) tubing and a boatload of resistance. I've had thoughts of hooking up my water manometer and rigging a set of gauges to calculate resistance on several horn/leadpipe/mouthpiece combinations, but all that work wouldn't make me a better player OR an acoustic engineer, so I haven't fidgeted with it. I don't know what's right, but I know what I like. *** (see PS) *** > The other aspect is bending the actual acoustic wave If a horn didn't have to have rounded profile or be "pretty," how might an understanding of your above statement impact horn design. I've always wondered what an acoustic engineer might come up with if you gave him (or her) the basic parameters for how a horn should react and had him design and build one... without knowing what it was he was building. Givens would be things like, 1) Key of F, 2) Three valves (we'll get into double-stuff later), and 3) A rearward-facing bell that the player could reach with his free hand... ...would be a good place to start. Assuming all cosmetic conventions have been tossed to the seven seas, what would it look like? Hang on to your hats, boys and girls, 'cause it JUST MIGHT HAVE VIENNA VALVES! However, someone here probably had it right recently when he said something about, "A great horn is more about good braces and careful assembly, etc..." There's probably not much way to build a horn appreciably better than is now done but, through clever design, there might be a way to build a mid-line horn that plays like a $9,000 one. Mark Veneklasen (don't make me look up the spelling) might have been on a pretty good track (before the wheels came off, that is), but to solve the problem of making the horn play better, one first must define "the problem." The thing is, lots of horns have marvelously clever engineering features that--when all is said and done--amount to little more than noting the metallurgical flaw in the Titanic's steel hull, then meticulously arranging the deck chairs in order to "improve" the ship. It's better alright. Perhaps the chairs were messy before, but somehow I don't think we identified the right problem. Just typing aloud here. Good night, jrc in SC PS: *** What would I like? I'd like a lightweight screwbell double that uses some clever bits like titanium valve rotors and carbon-fiber spatulas, etc. to keep the weight down. That way, the "sounding" parts could be built from whatever material is deemed best, but when an unwary player went to pick it up, he'd toss it through the ceiling tiles... due to its lightness. THAT's what I want. Also, I have a head full of neat ideas that (to my knowledge) have never been tried. The problem is, I think I might would soon find out why. There, I'm easy to please, eh-wot? r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Finger Loops & Old Geezers...
WHO: If you're over 40 years of age, and have been playing the horn a major portion of those years, I'd like some input here. A COMMON DIALOGUE: First, some common terminology so we can understand each other. Let's leave the thumb out of this for a moment, and look at your finger: Starting closest to the hand, I'm going to label the parts as follows: NOMENCLATURE: K - knuckle (the sharp, bony joint that you'd wish to contact the nose of an assailant) S1 - "segment one" - a ring would slip down and reside on this lowest part of the finger MJ - "middle joint" - a ring has to clear this joint in order to get down to S1 S2 - "segment two" - straight segment between MJ and TJ TJ - "top joint" - little semi-joint just under the fingernail S3 - "segment three" - the top segment; your fingernail is located on this one THE PROBLEM: Now, I'm now half-a-century old (yikes!) and I have large, but not huge, hands. When I hold a regular horn with its regular fingerloop in its regular place, the fingerloop rests on S3 or TJ... right near the TOP of my pinky finger. Ouch! I have arthritis (I forgive you, grandma Crenshaw), and I need to do something about this situation as the finger loop is causing a lot of pain right now. THE CURE?: I'm pretty sure I'd like to move my fingerloop around the bell branch 'til it nestles down at the bottom of S1, VERY close to my knuckle (oops! I meant to say "K"). I'm don't mean to do a public hand-wringing about this simple act, but would like some input from others. I can move the fingerloop myself, but would like to know if I can expect it help as much as I THINK it might. I think it'll make it a pain-in-the-hindquarters to fit the horn into a normal case, but I'll come up with something for that. CURE #2: Over at http://www.hornmouthpiece.com Thomas "Moosewood" Greer has a neat-looking nylon & leather strap (click on "PRODUCTS") for sale. While I would rather walk onstage and just hold the horn up naturally and without gadgets, I can see the day coming... and SOON, where I'll be either using a leather strap or giving up playing altogether. Put that way, the strap starts looking pretty sexy. THE SURVEY SAYS: If you've done ANYTHING to make your horn easier to hold up, I'd like to hear from you. It could be posture, fingerloop moving, different fingerloop, strap, whatever, I'd like to hear what got you to that point, what you've tried, what has worked for you, and how you rate the improvement in your situation. Don't get me wrong, if I had to, I could probably hold up the horn as long as I needed to. But as arthritis creeps in, I can feel that things have changed. As a musician friend of mine says, "Ray, the audience doesn't award hero points for pain," so I'd like to be pro-active here and hold-off Mr. Arthritis--if I can--by being smart. Horns are heavy, and anyone who hopes to play past 50 might ought to pay attention here, even if you don't need anything right now. I hope you never require relief from The Big "A" (no, I don't mean the conductor), but I've been amazed at how this came on me from out of nowhere. Best to you each morning, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Rotors & Oil...
Since there are a few repair-type doodz (also doodettes?) as well as
generally-knowledgeable players on this list, I'd like to ask a question:
Q: On a moving rotary valve, do the sides of the "barrel" touch the casings
as they spin? ...or do ONLY THE BEARINGS (top-and-bottom "axles") touch?
This is a semi-trick question because, if properly fitted and oiled, I'd
think that the metal never touches as the bearings are riding on a cushion
of oil. However, this ain't a perfect world, and for proof, one need only
listen to an entrance I recently made while playing in an orchestra.
I reckon the question I'm asking is; Does one need to oil the rotors, or
only the top and bottom bearings?
Don't get me wrong, I'm going continue to oil my valves ("heavy" on the
bearings, and "heavy" mixed with kerosene of trumpet valve oil on the rotors
themselves) and am NOT trying to get anyone to do differently. I'm just
wondering what NEEDS to be done.
I think I remember Prof. Pizka oils the bearings regularly, and the rotors
either occasionally or not-at-all. I will occasionally forgo oiling the
rotors each day, but I oil the bearings EVERY day... though this may be a
superstitious action on my part. His steady, long-term playing of the same
horn would make an excellent study for valve wear Vs. lubrication habits. If
Prof. Pizka told me he lubricated his valves with partially-hydrogenated
truffle oil, I think I'd AT LEAST look into doing the same!
What got me to thinking about all this was an automobile's valve-train. For
those of you who have some knowledge of how such things, the auto engine's
camshaft has a series of little oblong lobes (imagine a turning circular
part with a "lump" on the outside of the circle's surface) that turn as part
of a camshaft assembly. As this lobe spins around, it presses the valve open
in what APPEARS to be a metal-to-metal occurrence. However, it can't
possibly be so or else the valve gear would wear to a frazzle in a few
week's time. I'm sure there's a name for what's happening (and I'm equally
sure someone will soon post it!), but it's analogous to skipping a flat
stone across a pond. As long as the stone has pretty good speed, it will
skip across the water's surface, rather than sink. This hydroplaning action
has got to be why camshaft lobes don't wear to a frazzle in a short time.
Yes, the engine's camshaft lobes have a smooth and well-hardened surface
treatment, but that hardened surface alone wouldn't explain why my old Isuzu
Trooper can spin it's valve gear (and rods, and crankshaft, and...) for over
200,000 miles without a failure. I know the engine will eventually eat
itself, but for now it runs incredibly well for its age. Oh that I could do
the same!
So, I was wondering how much of this hydroplaning action goes on in a horn
valve, and what the timeline on valve wear would look like. I'm assuming
(danger! you know what it makes you when I assume?) that the lower bearing
sees the most stress (the valve's spinning action actually begins as a
wear-inducing "push-pull" event), and that, with time, the downward spiral
begins from there. But I don't KNOW this.
What say ye?
jrc
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[Hornlist] Gilbert & Sullivan "MIKADO" Question...
>> Anywhoo, the question is this: >> Q: How many horn parts are there? > My horn has > 4 valve caps > 4 valves Thanks David. This is exactly what I needed. Not, mind you, what I wanted! It did, however, give me a big ear-to-ear grin, and that's what I needed more than the info. jrc in SC (who learns to enjoy being Hardy to another's Laurel) ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Gilbert & Sullivan "MIKADO" Question...
If you're old enough to read this, then you probably weren't born when I last played the Mikado. Anywhoo, the question is this: Q: How many horn parts are there? I only remember one, but there may have been a second book that I didn't see since there was no 2nd horn player. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Screech horns
> Alan Civil used to do it on his Alex Model 90 Bb single. I've no doubt that he could... *** > One nice example was at the IHS workshop in 1978 at East > Lansing. (Concertstuck with wind ensemble) accompaniment I was there on the front row. That one was memorable for two reasons: 1) a guy in the euphonium section thought HE was the soloist (can you say "tasteless?" If you were there, you could!), and: 2) Alan almost shredded Michael Holtzel off the conductor's podium with the first of those high E's. Holtzel was securely belted and ready for the second one. Speaking of being belted, wasn't that the Concertstuck that was preceded by a uniformed waitress strolling in with glasses of "fortifying" wine for the quartet? Sort of a "we who are about to die, salute you" effect. However, though he'd played his normal Alex single Bb all that week, Alan was playing a borrowed Alex descant in Bb-High F for the Schumann. Discretion being the better part of valor, I suppose. He borrowed it from someone in the audience, but I can't recall who that was. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] wordgames
> A comparison: > Saxo could also be understood as in connection with the saxo-nians, > a tribe located in east germany bordering to the Czech Republic There's also a small splinter group from within the above tribe. They all work in the automobile paint & body trade and, being small in stature, can easily get up under the cars to apply paint in tight quarters. And they are... The Gnome Saxo-Fenders. This has been a public service announcement. You don't have to thank me. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Alright Sherman, Set The WayBack Machine For The Year 1978... (a summer in Hartford, Connecticut)
Okay, who was at the Hartford, Connecticut horn workshop in the late 1970's? Wendell Hoss was. William Valkenier was. So was I, but mainly, Alan Civil was. I'm looking for a piece of music that Alan wrote on his way over from The Land Of Fog. He photocopied it and handed it out at the Connecticut workshop, though, come to think, it may POSSIBLY have been at the East Lansing, Michigan workshop. Anyway, it was a catchy little etude, in D (our "A", of course), all eighth notes (very few rests), that wandered back and forth between 6/8 and 4/8, and ended with a chromatic shuffle up to G-natural above the staff, an eighth rest, then a quick little "G#-A" to top it off. Alan said the etude was meant to be played in one breath, and he demonstrated. I later learned to do it in one big blow, but can't now because I don't have the music. If I could remember the whole bloomin' thing, I'd just transcribe it, but I only remember the first and last few bars. If it would help in my quest to find this piece, I can still hum the first few bars of it, so just give me a call here in South Carolina and I'll sing it to you. I quit playing 20 years ago this past February, and have decided to start back. I'd really, REALLY like to have this "old friend" back after all these years as I have NO idea where my original (signed by Alan!) copy is. No need to worry about copyright violations; the piece was written to be free-as-an-ornithological creature. Surely someone out there kept this little gem of a piece? jrc ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Brass With Class(ics)
> > Sometime in the late 60's/early 70's, the Philadelphia Brass Quintet > playing under the name "The Torchy Jones Brass Quintet" > ...three classical melodies are played in jazz arrangement > by Frank Howard: Tchaik 5 (recorded as Jonesy Swings) "Hunter." Frank Hunter. > It was released as a Demo LP, and there aren't too very many copies > of it extant as far as I can tell Sean, I looked for YEARS to find one. Snagged mine at a record show in SanFran back in '84. As far as I can tell, the LP was released more-or-less "normally," but got pulled as soon as a few rolled off the presses. Though now lost in a hard-drive crash, I e-mailed Abe Torchinksy and asked him about it... not expecting an answer. But then, a few days later, I received an e-mail from "Mr T" (pardon me) explaining the situation. Abe was more descriptive, but the jist of it was this: "There was NOT going to be any 'Philadelphia Brass Quintet" recordings coming out without Ormandy's name on them, and therefore, also lining his pockets." It got pulled. In all fairness, I'd wager that Ormandy had a contract with Columbia records that he THOUGHT was air-tight as far as royalties went, but that the PBQ did an end run (intentionally, or not) around it by NOT calling themselves "The Philadelphia Brass Quintet." I'd also wager that the LP's recall showed who had the clout, PBQ or Ormandy. Cool record too. When I was in the Travis AFB band, our brass quintet managed to spend a BIG pile of your tax money on a Frank Hunter Beatle's medley. Any hornlisters who are at Travis, or KNOW anyone who is, might want to take a look at it. It was commisioned just for us and I think it would be a hoot if I could get to see (or hear) it again. While I'm wagering, I'll bet it hasn't been played since I was there. I left in '83. All you need is love. jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] melody Tchaikovsky 5?
> ...And then there was "Tonight We Love" adapted from > the Rach 2 piano concerto, as I recall OK, but let's not forget "Full Moon And Empty Arms." On second thought, let's do. jrc in SC PS: FMAEA was also from a Rachmaninoff piano concerto... I think. r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Valve Cleaning Class
> lamp oil is not manufactured to be used as a lubricant
I don't think lamp oil is "manufactured" at all. More on that in a moment...
***
> ... you're still buying (lamp) oil that is cheap
> enough to be sold for a few dollars for 24 ounces
I sure hope we all know why valve oil costs more than lamp oil. And
by-the-by, price comments not-at-all on how good a lubricant either oil is.
Valve oil most certainly does NOT cost more because of how much "better" it
is. Valve oil costs more for three huge (and lovely) capitalistic reasons:
1) The tiny 2-ounce bottle valve oil is sold in cost MANY times that of the
contents,
2) The very fact that it is sold in such small quanties, and...
3) It's marketed for use in $8,000 pieces of brass.
IOW: We're suckers for this stuff!
How much do you think lamp oil would cost if it were sold in 2-once
"eye-dropper" bottles? Let's just agree that would be an expensive little
light source you'd be using there. If Beluga caviar were used as a furniture
polish, it'd sell for fifteen-cents per ounce or it wouldn't sell at all.
The fact that the Russians KNOW what we're going to use it for directly
influences the price. Rich folk who EAT it are willing to pay $500 bux an
ounce for it, and for this reason, my furniture goes unkempt.
***
> Valve oil is designed as a lubricant
I don't think valve oil is designed either. I'll speculate that valve oil is
one small strata of the cracking process; located somewhere between Diesel
fuel ("heavier," therefore, below it), and methane gas ("lighter,"
therefore, above it). The expensive little bottles admit to containing ONLY
"petroluem distallates." Some of "A," some of "B," etc... Not even a
colorful splash on the front proclaiming, "Now contains Eye-Of-Newt III,
with EXTRA TETRAHYDROZOLINE!" Believe me, if there was ANYTHING special
about valve oil, it would be plastered all over the front. Truth-be-told,
protecting slow-cycling, room-temperature rotary valves is a rather mundane
task. Oiling them with motor oil (of the proper viscosity) would be casting
petroleum pearls before brass-playing swine. (pardon the association, made
only to emphasize a point)
***
> That's why a good small bottle of Hetman Synthetic
> or Rika oil will cost as much as it does
I look forward to some facts refuting this, but ALL the above oils are
likely off-the-shelf petroleum products and derivatives. I don't think
throngs of engineers are slaving 'round the clock in the (for instance)
Hetman factory laboratory complex to synthesize specially-designed little
molecules that grow up to populate happy bottles of valve oil. It just ain't
that hard. All you have to do is find a reputable petroleum products
company, call 'em up, and order some test samples. Next you picks yer
poison, then you find a company to package it in little labeled bottles. If
you're a valve oil vendor with OCD, you might check a box on the order form
that says, "Filter My Totally-Mundane Off-The-Shelf Liquid Just ONE MORE
TIME," so you can sleep a little better. Otherwise, smack it hard and wish
it well.
And please, before anyone chimes in to tell me how synthetics are made, read
up on it first. As far as I know, the cool part about synthetics is how you
start with one PETROLEUM molecule, and make all the others almost identical
to the original. Very little flotsam and jetsam in the mix. Just homogeneous
product.
***
> I mean if all oil was the same, why don't we use good old fashioned
> Venezuela Crude in our horns? Or how about Motor Oil?
I do.
***
> Bottom line, and on a serious note, spending more on oil is never a bad
idea
And on a thrifty note, spending ALMOST NOTHING on oil is a good idea. My
valves are very well protected, and they're slick as glass.
***
> If you buy a BMW or a Porsche, you can't throw in Sam's Club motor oil or
the
> normal 87 octane gasoline - you have to spring for the expensive motor oil
and
> the expensive 90+ Octane gas.
Facts please. If you got 'em, let's trot 'em out for a viewing.
1) The Porsche and BMW may (or may not) need special oil. If they do, that
oil would be Mobil 1 here in the US. As for the octane rating on the
gasoline; an engine runs best on the LOWEST octane fuel that still prevents
heat-related combustion anomalies, IE: pre-ignition and detonation. Many
high-performance engines call for the premium blends of gasoline (BTW:
octane rating numbers are not comparable across national borders). HOWEVER,
using premium in a car requiring only regular does NOT give any performance
or fuel-mileage increase.
William, it may sound as if I'm trying to bust your chops. I'm not. It just
so happens that you're the one who has codified most of the generally-held
wive's tales concerning valve oil, so it just-so-happens that I used your
words.
I buy the occasional bottle of Al Cass just because it's pretty much
odor-free. But I always oil my rotor-spindle bearings with my own CHP
concoction.
My valves smile at me.
jrc
PS: I've been making my o
[Hornlist] Parts Wanted: Holton Valve "bumpers" (widgets that hold the bumper corks)
Could someone fill me in on a good place to order the little cork-bumper holder plates for Holton horns? If you're at all familiar with Holtons, you probably know that SOME of these horns have chintzy, pressed-steel cork holder plates that bend like Swiss cheese. Don't get me wrong; I like Swiss cheese (after all, it's made of cheese!) but not on a horn. My music professor friend here at the local college says the school has a Holton with the cheesy parts, and that just playing the horn normally will bend the bumper plates. Someone here recently mentioned that there are cast parts (as on the older horns) available, and I'd like to get some for him. Just don't know where to go to obtain a set. You can write me off-list with a recommendation if you think the list might be spammed with 50,000 replies to this. However, I don't expect that many, so perhaps someone may benefit from reading your suggested sources. Your call. Thanks, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Replating of valves
> I have all the equipment for (valve) plating DON'T DO IT, BILL!!! If you try working on your own horn, your cow will dissolve into plastic shavings, your hair will catch on fire, and your sainted Grandmother will retroactively cause your children to be born nekkid. Besides, since it's been decided that there's no way I could possibly cut the bell off my Holton, I'm pretty sure this automatically disqualifies you to dissasemble a Rotary Valve. (notice the caps... and tremble!) jrc (whose cheek is hurting where his tongue stuck so hard into it) PS: In other words; keep us posted. I have a friend with a plating get-up... so I just might have a go at my Czech-made single-F (with a SCREWBELL! Nanner-nanner, nnner!), whose valves are so loose that the rotors would probably drop in sideways. Pending, of course, list approval. ~r ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] A Do-It-Yourself Screwbell How-To...
I once ran up on it somewhere out there on the web but, try as I might, I can't find it now. QUESTION #1: I'm looking for a fairly long web article (with many color pictures) that features a guy in short pants out in his shop chopping the bell off a friend's horn and making a screwbell conversion. I've found the Osmun site's "how we do it" page, but the web article I seek is more along the lines of, "Relax and get your saw warmed-up; even my great-grandmother could do this stuff!" Just think, "Tim 'The Tool Man' Taylor meets Dr. Frankenstein And His Hacksaw," and you're on the right track. But don't say "Kevorkian," or you might make me nervous. At first, you may have wondered why I would be looking for such an article, but after reading my quoted description of it, I'll be you've probably got it figured by now. That's right; I want to make some metal dust! QUESTION #2: Where's a good place to buy a Holton (or equivalent) screwbell ring? I looked into this twenty years ago but nearly swallowed my teeth when a couple of the big instrument repair houses quoted me outrageous prices on JUST THE THREADED RINGS. For the prices I heard back then, a repairman should've flown out to meet me with the part, then installed and re-plated my valves just to make sure I'd be happy. I plan to c*rcumscise a Holton H-179 Farkas-model, so I think I might want to use the standard Holton ring. I can see the (possible) wisdom of choosing the Alex ring, but let's face it; I won't be ordering any $2500 (or whatever) Schmid bells to see how I like them on my $500 Holton. Plus, the Holton ring should be sized such that it fits in a good place along the bell branch, not RIGHT WHERE the brace goes. Thanks, jrc in SC ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] unsubscribe or set options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
