Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Linda Sherman wrote: Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Speaking as an audience member I find that several factors separate the good conductors from the not-so-good, but I agree that this tempo issue is very important. One recording which has always struck me for the perfection of the tempi is Der Freischutz conducted by Carlos Kleiber. What a delight! Daniel ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Conductors, etc.
message: 5 date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 13:01:52 +0200 from: hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] subject: [Hornlist] Conductors etc I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of people, seems not funny but rather pervers. I don't think people are afraid to express their opinions because some conductor might be watching the list. What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say tools. They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of conducting the bi-dimensional-music-commanding. Whatever you call it, i agree that there are fewer great conductors today than ever. There are a lot of technicians and posers out there. Everything is geared towards perfect performances. There is a real lack of connection with the higher musical standards of the past. But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within the sections between the different instrument groups to form a unified sound. This relates to all kind of music. Keep single members or sections from exaggerating their dynamic. Keep sections or the whole at lower dynamic, so the different solos can shine. All this can be learned or acquired by listening to many performances conducted by well acknowledged maestros. Together with the first paragraph requirements we could name this now three-dimensional-music-commanding. All these things are good things, and, unfortunately, most of us would settle for someone who came close to this. Often, however, we are faced with conductors who can't even keep a steady beat. Something is still missing, right? But there is one dimension still left, the dimension which is the most necessary at all levels: expression, expression that does not just make an audience excited, but more, make it moved. There could come excitement in the audience within the orchestra because of the technical brilliance the perfection of sound execution. But still there=B4s nobody moved besides the conductor himself perhaps. Yes this is where most conductors are severely lacking these days. There seems to be an idea that if you do all the other things right, then the expression will magically appear. Sort of like putting all the right ingredients together in a recipe without tasting it. How to achieve that most important goal ? The fourth dimension. Using the right vocables during the rehearsals, preconditioned everything else is right. The richer the vocabulary of the conductor, the richer the colours of the orchestra and the richer the performance. Vocables as lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous, destructing, like clouds before hailstorms, radiating sunny, heating up like a hord of huns, icy, sound of glass, static, desperately sad, full of heavenly joy, etc. - these would be the words we musicians would understand interpret the right way. Yes, this is very well said. But this requires conductors, human conductors, musical super sensitive characters, which are too rare today within the list of travelling stars. Amen. It seems too often, that the only teaching they received was counting $$$. But there are some gems left, fortunately, but most of them will never get any chance to explore his or her potentials with an orchestra of high class. This is the reason, why some provincial orchestras can do a superb performance once a while, which would blame the superstars. The superstars are often overrated. (Read Who Killed Classical Music) They are more like the survivors these days. People who have managed to stay around or get jobs for reasons other than their musical talent. Of, course, the classical music field has fallen into the same bottom-lining as the rest of our world- players as well as conductors. Everything is reduced to measurable results in order to balance the budget or to simply define success. I had a teacher in high school who thought he would be cool with me if he could make some brilliant statement about music in class. He said, Well, music can be reduced to mathematical (we didn't have computers in those days) formulas, can it not? He wasn't really happy with my answer. As Einstein said, Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted. Sincerely, Wendell Rider For information about my
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
hans wrote: What makes a good conductor Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Linda ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
The tempos stay in certain relations each other (ganzzahlig), that´s it. Once a conductor has understood this, he is good. Well, can you describe clean colours ? Colours which you can find in nature ? If you can describe them, you have to transpose that to music. That´s it. Some have this ability by nature - a very very small minority, others struggle the whole life to find a way, others will never experience that phenomenon - but many get excited as one has to be excited no matter they like the piece, the performance or the orchestra or the picture or the movie or the dress or -- or --- or The majority even can be manipulated easily to be excited. But how does the majority look inside their hearts ? Even if we feel our performance including the conductor off cours were wonderful, the reviews come out just so-so, because these eunuchs did not get the message as it was not theirs. One can live with that situation, but it is getting worse, while the technical standard improves enormously. === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Linda Sherman Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 2:04 PM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc hans wrote: What makes a good conductor Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Linda ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Where is the Cabbage in all this? I'm sure he would be willing to explain to us just exactly what atomic structure is needed to make a good conductor. I'm sure it has something to do with the distribution of electrons in the nuclear structure. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Linda Sherman Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:04 AM To: The Horn List Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc hans wrote: What makes a good conductor Speaking strictly as an audience member, the most reliable factor that always seems to separate the good conductors from the not-so-good is how they use tempo. The good ones just seem to have the right feel for the tempo and the general flow of the music, while the not-so-good ones just don't get the tempo and flow right I find this very hard to describe. Maybe someone can help me out here. Linda ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/bgross%40airmail.net ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Two observations on what Steve said, as to not always the best getting the job, as it is in all industries/pursuits. A novel of the later part of the last Century, On Wings of Eagles follows the two careers of officers in the US Army. One is the perfect careerist seeking out the right job and getting to know the right people just to get ahead. The other is the stereotypic professional the man who does the right thing for the right reason, not for personal gain. The contrast in the two men reflected a lot of what goes on it large organizations, so much so that the head of the Army put the book on a required reading list. The other issue, on this side of the Atlantic at least, is the fact that conductors have to be able not only to be musicians, but must also be able to play up to the people in a community with the big purses to keep funding coming into the organization. Not only must he/she know how to get music from musicians but also work with the Board of Directors to get money out of donors to keep the orchestra solvent. I'm not sure if that is an issue in Europe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:28 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of sour grapes - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've gotten it right but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say tools. They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of conducting the bi-dimensional-music-commanding. But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within the sections between the different
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Company politics are so important, I just can't justify wasting time on the job I was hired to do. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: horn@music.memphis.edu Sent: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 7:00 AM Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Two observations on what Steve said, as to not always the best getting the job, as it is in all industries/pursuits. A novel of the later part of the last Century, On Wings of Eagles follows the two careers of officers in the US Army. One is the perfect careerist seeking out the right job and getting to know the right people just to get ahead. The other is the stereotypic professional the man who does the right thing for the right reason, not for personal gain. The contrast in the two men reflected a lot of what goes on it large organizations, so much so that the head of the Army put the book on a required reading list. The other issue, on this side of the Atlantic at least, is the fact that conductors have to be able not only to be musicians, but must also be able to play up to the people in a community with the big purses to keep funding coming into the organization. Not only must he/she know how to get music from musicians but also work with the Board of Directors to get money out of donors to keep the orchestra solvent. I'm not sure if that is an issue in Europe. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:28 AM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of sour grapes - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've gotten it right but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say tools. They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack
[Hornlist] Conductors etc
I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of people, seems not funny but rather pervers. What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say tools. They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of conducting the bi-dimensional-music-commanding. But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within the sections between the different instrument groups to form a unified sound. This relates to all kind of music. Keep single members or sections from exaggerating their dynamic. Keep sections or the whole at lower dynamic, so the different solos can shine. All this can be learned or acquired by listening to many performances conducted by well acknowledged maestros. Together with the first paragraph requirements we could name this now three-dimensional-music-commanding. But there is one dimension still left, the dimension which is the most necessary at all levels: expression, expression that does not just make an audience excited, but more, make it moved. There could come excitement in the audience within the orchestra because of the technical brilliance the perfection of sound execution. But still there´s nobody moved besides the conductor himself perhaps. How to achieve that most important goal ? The fourth dimension. Using the right vocables during the rehearsals, preconditioned everything else is right. The richer the vocabulary of the conductor, the richer the colours of the orchestra and the richer the performance. Vocables as lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous, destructing, like clouds before hailstorms, radiating sunny, heating up like a hord of huns, icy, sound of glass, static, desperately sad, full of heavenly joy, etc. - these would be the words we musicians would understand interpret the right way. But this requires conductors, human conductors, musical super sensitive characters, which are too rare today within the list of travelling stars. It seems too often, that the only teaching they received was counting $$$. But there are some gems left, fortunately, but most of them will never get any chance to explore his or her potentials with an orchestra of high class. This is the reason, why some provincial orchestras can do a superb performance once a while, which would blame the superstars. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans Pizka wrote: I try it again to incend a fire(works) about conductors their means of interpretation, as the first attempt resulted in zero effect but one single reply. Are you to cautious to talk about conductors ? Because a few lure around in several lists ? What to fear ? Is it impossible to talk the truth ? Even about music ? Poor world intimidated by a handful of people, seems not funny but rather pervers. Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of sour grapes - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've gotten it right but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S- What makes a good conductor Seems an interesting question. Well, most conductors have a very limited means of expresions or let us better say tools. They know slow-fast, loud-soft, hard-soft, short-long. But this could be done by a programmed machine also. Just think about an electric programmable jumping jack. I might names this way of conducting the bi-dimensional-music-commanding. But there is more, like bringing the tempos into a certain mathematical relation (plain numbers, no fractions), work out the phrases set by the composer, balance the dynamics within the sections between the different instrument groups to form a unified sound. This relates to all kind of music. Keep single members or sections from exaggerating their dynamic. Keep sections or the whole at lower dynamic, so the different solos can shine. All this can be learned or acquired by listening to many performances conducted by well acknowledged maestros. Together with the first paragraph requirements we could name this now three-dimensional-music-commanding. But there is one dimension still left, the dimension which is the most necessary at all levels: expression, expression that does not just make an audience excited, but more, make it moved. There could come excitement in the audience within the orchestra because of the technical brilliance the perfection of sound execution. But still there´s nobody moved besides the conductor himself perhaps. How to achieve that most important goal ? The fourth dimension. Using the right vocables during the rehearsals, preconditioned everything else is right. The richer the vocabulary of the conductor, the richer the colours of the orchestra and the richer the performance. Vocables as lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous,
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hello Steve, then you know perfectly whom I had in mind when I mentioned the rare hidden gems, - people like you, people who love the music and people whos heart beats at the right place in the right rhythm. There are a lot of conductor careers, jump started careers, promoted by a clever crew of public relation people. And they get their 20%, so they push the salaries up. But some conductors cannot be sold in certain countries - dont think rassistic, as the Arabs do not listen to our music and special the fanatics refuse to attend or allow concerts (see Taliban etc.). Some conductors cannot be sold because they have not any market value there no matter how much their value might be in your or in my country. Some of these pushed figures fall on their nose sooner or later (ask them what note you have to play in a Verdi opera - see transposition to Ab-basso ???), but some get along with the musicians in a clever friendly way, absorbing any given information by the musicians, capable to use these info for themselves their conducting, well, these might make their way up are most welcome to us. Interesting might be, that a lot of very successful and good conductors are jewish. Why ? Jews had to assimilate themselves everywhere they went or where they were pushed to. They spoke two languages from the beginning (Jiddish the local language). Language skill sharpens the brain. Assimilating requires to be very sensitive. All prerequisites for that job infront of the orchestra. And, many jewish families keep traditions of music making themselves at home over the centuries (at least playing the piano). And special the German jews, they kept the German culture high, kept the music tradition very high, and literature - even in the diaspora. But for the others, dont fraternisate with them. If they make you trouble you honestly dont deserve, watch for their defects never help them if they get in trouble. Play as they conduct (wordly !), so they will disappear after a while. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 3:28 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans, I did not respond because I think you stated the case very well. A good conductor must posses everything you suggest and, again as you suggest, many lack that all-important ability to inspire, to embue a performance with the kind of life that will bring the best out of the players and move an audience. I will also add that I have seen conductors who err in the other direction, as it were - they attempt to emote but lack musicianship, lack an understanding of the music they are conducting, or both, and their efforts seem superficial and insubstantial as a result. Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. Disclaimer, lest someone think my rant is some sort of sour grapes - I went through school as a choral conducting major with no aspirations of a career as a conductor. I am a theory and ear-training specialist and taught those subjects at the college level even before my doctorate was completed. Going through college as a conducting major was much more interesting than doing it as a theory major - I got to conduct a recital for my doctoral degree instead of having to write a thesis - how good is _that_? :) I have done one conducting engagement per year for the last several decades, a small professional choir hired for the Jewish High Holy Days (just finished) at a large congregation in suburban Philadelphia. I just finished my 27th year as conductor and every year feel completely humbled by the task of doing everything within my power at rehearsals and performances to make the music the most inspirational and moving it can be. I don't ever feel I've gotten it right but I find the process of trying to improve my own ability to, in turn, improve the performances a noble pursuit and one I look forward to each year. -S
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Debbie, I have no experience with Giulini, but did several concerts with Leinsdorf Solti. So I cannot agree with you, that they were not verbose, in contrary, both could explain very well how they wanted the things, very illustrative indeed. Well, we had no problems to understand Leinsdorfs fine nuances in the language as we all spokethe same language as mother language, which might make a big, a very big difference. And Solti, I think that German was also his second mother language. He was the boss of my orchestra after WW2. You should have heard him explaining R.Strauss´ Don Juan. Never heard it explained better. Or watch the Golden Ring documentary with the VPO. But you need to understand the fine nuances in German. Or Bernstein ? Just two words explained everything. If the right words are used, just few words will make it. And these calibers were full of fun. Fischer-Dieskau once asked Klemperer if he could attend one of his concerts, but Klemperer asked why. I will conduct Schuberts Great ! Let me check my calender (Klemperer), yes, yes, I might be free that night, but, but I have to attend George Solties Liederabend, sorry. Sawallisch knew when where why singer errors could happen during a performance, but he could repair them BEFORE they happen. I have witnessed that on many occasions. Kleiber did not help, - speaking of Carlos -, but he studied the things very well for himself first, even inserting special instructions into the several parts by himself, - and he could talk colours enormously, even his German vocabulary was very short, but he had just the right terms. Watch his Fledermaus, Woyzzeck, Rosenkavalier, Tristan, Freischuetz, Othello (nearly all his repertory regarding opera), oops, he did two Bohemes one Madame Buterfly with us without rehearsal. You could read everything from his face (I played both Bohemes). Another performance (La Traviata) was cancelled due to a singer illness (the tenor had to leave the stage the famous aria was jumped, when we did the first of the La Traviatas in that series) and Kleiber asked for a change in the program, Pavarotti was in town and sang Rodolfo, can you imagine that excitement. The audience really boiled but came to tears (no exaggeration !) we too. We were so moved. It was the music, the great singers AND Carlos Kleiber. Muti uses a thin vocabulary but all words are placed right, and his great discipline when conducting. The greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability to LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players in the pit or on stage and just use what´s being offered to them or even fine tuning the one or the other phrase or voice. == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:05 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans Pizka wrote: -snip- ... The greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability to LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players in the pit or on stage and just use what´s being offered to them or even fine tuning the one or the other phrase or voice. As a conducting student, I found this process the heart of the matter but, while easy enough to describe, very difficult to do well. One must learn to conduct what one wants musically, to ask for what one wants with words, but to do that well _and_ to listen carefully to what's being played - that is a real multi-tasking skill. Those who can only listen and critique are coaches, not conductors. My favorite definition of musical talent comes from theorist Carl Schachter. I cannot quote him exactly, but if one knows a bit about Schenkerian analysis, Carl's speciality, one can appreciate his comment that while many people might be able to manage the big picture (emotion, character, style, history, etc.), the smallest details, or the levels in between (e.g., phrasing), the truly talented at music manage _all_ these things simultaneously, and it is that simultaneous attention to the big picture, the smallest detail, and everything in between that makes for a great performance. Carl studied with, and later coauthored a theory text with Felix Saltzer who, in turn, worked directly with Heinrich Schenker. And let me hasten to add that Carl is a delightful, insightful teacher, a wonderfully musical pianist, and always a interesting person to be around. -S- == -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:05 PM To: horn@music.memphis.edu Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans, I agree conceptually, but let's talk about an older generation of conductors so as not to offend, Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. All were passionate all could move you and the audience. So I would suggest that there is an unspoken chemistry between conductor and orchestra and an unspoken respect that goes both ways that also comes into play. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans%40pizka. de ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/steve%40fridays computer.com ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
But unknown in this hemisphere. Steve, you said everything perfectly, but it seems hard to get this understood by the majority. Playing on a first chair in a wind section or playing as a soloist or chamber musician requires the same skill as you just described. If you are the leader of that particular group (chamber music) you need all these requisites too. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Freides Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:56 PM To: 'The Horn List' Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Conductors etc Hans Pizka wrote: -snip- ... The greatest advantage of these great conductors is their ability to LISTEN, to listen what´s coming from the various players in the pit or on stage and just use what´s being offered to them or even fine tuning the one or the other phrase or voice. As a conducting student, I found this process the heart of the matter but, while easy enough to describe, very difficult to do well. One must learn to conduct what one wants musically, to ask for what one wants with words, but to do that well _and_ to listen carefully to what's being played - that is a real multi-tasking skill. Those who can only listen and critique are coaches, not conductors. My favorite definition of musical talent comes from theorist Carl Schachter. I cannot quote him exactly, but if one knows a bit about Schenkerian analysis, Carl's speciality, one can appreciate his comment that while many people might be able to manage the big picture (emotion, character, style, history, etc.), the smallest details, or the levels in between (e.g., phrasing), the truly talented at music manage _all_ these things simultaneously, and it is that simultaneous attention to the big picture, the smallest detail, and everything in between that makes for a great performance. Carl studied with, and later coauthored a theory text with Felix Saltzer who, in turn, worked directly with Heinrich Schenker. And let me hasten to add that Carl is a delightful, insightful teacher, a wonderfully musical pianist, and always a interesting person to be around. -S- ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Conductors etc
Hans, We agree they were not verbose I said Leinsdorf, Solti and Guilini none of which in my experience in rehearsal were colorful or verbose. I used the word NONE. I used them as an example and purposefully excluded Bernstein because I took your initial remarks Which were; Vocables as lovely, blooming, heroic, thundering, not audible but noticeable, fanatic, fantastic, full of love, glooming like rock coal, poisonous, destructing, like clouds before hailstorms, radiating sunny, heating up like a hord of huns, icy, sound of glass, static, desperately sad, full of heavenly joy, etc. - these would be the words we musicians would understand interpret the right way. To mean verbose. That was a mistake which I now see from your response. What they say is important without doubt but great conductors are passionate but to the point they can say the same thing 100 different ways to get the sound or effect they want (also an attribute of a great teacher). But no matter how great a conductor without an orchestra to conduct we have no music and I will reiterate that great conductors have an unspoken respect that goes both ways. Debbie ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
[Hornlist] Conductors etc
Steve wrote: Unfortunately, in conducting more than in most other areas of musical endeavor, talent, hard work, and good results do not always lead to success. At least it seems this way to me - in a blind audition behind a curtain, the best player should prevail, but conductors are hired by much less direct processes. Because I went through music school as a conductor, I have had the opportunity to watch the careers of several of my colleagues, all of whom shall remain nameless here; suffice it to say that I have seen at least one very talented, hard-working individual achieve a career but only relatively minor success, while another who is a charlatan by measure of almost everyone who has either known him or played under him has risen to the top ranks of the profession, achieving his success, so far as I have been able to determine, by other means. Such is the way life works sometimes, I'm sad to say. We saw this happen in my orchestra in 2003 selecting our latest Music Director. The two best candidates scared many of the rank and file musicians (who did not want to work hard) and did not suck up to the Board of Directors sufficiently. In their audition concerts the orchestra was immediately raised to a better level of performance though they accomplished this in two far different manners. We ended up with someone who has had twenty plus years of conducting experience but does not have the skills necessary-IMHO of course-to conduct. There is no sense of the arch and vision necessary to conduct Bruckner or Mahler. His/her audition concert included Sibelius 5 which though it wowed our uncultivated audience was a collection of mere gestures which themselves were not all correct. He/she speaks in vagueness often to try to evoke feeling and musicality but this rings hollow when words such as shorter longer softer louder would suffice better. When it IS time to go into inspirational territory the force of will needed to unify and convey the single vision is absent. Too much collaboration is attempted. Often I feel he/she is learning repertoire though it would be inconceivable to me to conduct for 20 years and have learned the major works. It is a better situation than the last Music Director who was both a megalomaniac and had no skills or knowledge whatsoever. ___ post: horn@music.memphis.edu unsubscribe or set options at http://music2.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
