RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Yes, Rosetti no.5 is some challenge, as it is in E. Using a lot of F-side might help much, as all arpeggios go on 2, and the valve 2 is the most engaged there. Using the Bb-side (2nd valve switches it to A-horn) for some top notes or when fingering might be easier even in the low range, a great help. BTW, what kind of edition do you use ? The Leloir - KaWe ? Where does the orchestra material come from ? Just a question. Enjoy the conversation with you. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/7/2003 5:30:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Josef Meinlschmidt Ah... I wonder is it possible to order a set of 4 carbon fiber and 4 titanium valves from him for a Schmid? I'd love to have the money to try the differences out... -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Lapping in titanium valves - I wish you much Spass ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 5:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? In a message dated 12/7/2003 5:30:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Josef Meinlschmidt Ah... I wonder is it possible to order a set of 4 carbon fiber and 4 titanium valves from him for a Schmid? I'd love to have the money to try the differences out... -William ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
No, you are wrong, William. The titanium is that hard, that it will lap into the nickel silver or yellow brass casings, but one has to know how to do it right. Well, if I were really rich, I would not fuss around with four five horns different sets of valves, I would proceed the same way as I did. This is probably one of the biggest differences to the American life style. We prefer rather to engineer one thing right from the beginning before starting the experiments. But if the thing is perfect, then WE have to adapt ourselves or adapt our use of the tool. I would still have just two or three equal horns of the same make type, plus another single F a high F descant, perhaps a Hunting horn a natural horn to be ready for all tasks. One has FIRST to decide, what sound colour should be achieved, THEN to get the right tool, and AGAIN adapt ones embouchure. It is not a matter of being rich or poor. I am not rich, but I have not to turn the penny around. I rather can buy (in a modest way) what I need can afford some extravaganza. (1 Ganter double, 2 Pizka Classic Doubles, 1 Ganter single F Pumpenhorn, 1 Pizka Classic Pumpenhorn, 1 of Schatls 3 coiled hunting horns, a big hunting horn with changeable terminal crooks, one Alex high F-descant). And, most of these horns are in use many, many years, but still in near mint or mint condition. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 5:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? Just joking around there Hans :) I'm sure that would probably set me back a lot of money to even attempt to order it... You have to admit Hans, if you were rich you would want a lot of things to play with too. If I were rich I'd probably have four or five horns and two sets of valves for each and I probably would fork out a ton of money for the Veneklassen horn just to see what the fuss was about... but then again if I were ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
MY 25-year-old GANTER DOUBLE HORN. A descant Bb/high-F does not help much. Just for the high d3 e3 ? No, if you don't have these notes on the Bb-side, better not to try to play this piece. If one plays a lot on the F-side, even in op.86, - and it is possible, then the Bb-side (the trigger) will help for the extremes, but still the tone quality will be (nearly) the same - not with the pinching high F descant. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Tedesco Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:52 PM To: The Horn List Subject: RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? That's an interesting list of your normally used horns. I notice there isn't a normal B/high-F descant in your list. If I may ask, when you played the Konzerstuecke down in New Zealand, what horn did you use? Chris ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/5/2003 5:00:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: I never thought of this before, and I'm sure it's very expensive, but if you took one of your valves to a decent machining shop I'm sure they could copy it into any material you wanted. And, if you provided the material I'm sure they could do it straight away. If you have access to a modern CAD program, you can draw the valve to scale on your computer. You can then then down load it as a DXF file and use it to program a computer numerical controlled lathe, CNC. Chuck up any material you like, and the machine will pop a valve out, correct to a couple of tenths. You might not have to lap it. Well, it's not quite that easy, but modern machines are getting pretty close. Setting up the machine is still time consuming, so one offs would have to be priced to support the shop time from beginning to end, several hours, certainly. A lot of technology is being developed to make it that simple, perhaps in ten to twenty years. Seriously, if you are careful to match the part being made to a proper machine, parts, like rotors, can be made from a DFX file derived from a simple drawing. It just has to get cheap. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
On 6 Dec 2003, at 3:02 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting. However the mechanical linkages... to me they would appear to slow down the valve no matter what the valve was made of... Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. I was talking about machining valves for existing horns... I think it can be done even without changing the rotor plates, etc. One would think so. I didn't get the reasons but, when I asked at Paxman if they would retro-fit Ti valves I was told they weren't able to do this. As to carbon-fiber valves, it's an interesting theorey but sometimes you need the inertia in a valve. I wouldn't want them to be too light. What theory? Be empirical. Try a Finke and find out. All the best, Tom -- My ol' grandaddy taught me to always; post in plain text, quote only that portion to which you are replying, post replies at the bottom. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
I might but I don't think I will ever buy one unless a Schmid bell ring was installed :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What theory? Be empirical. Try a Finke and find out. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? Schmid has a great article on this: A HREF=http://www.corno.de/schmid/deu-eng/mechanik.htm;http://www.corno.de/schmid/deu-eng/mechanik.htm/A If you'll notice the angle of advantage on ball-linkages vary from 135 degrees either direction. String always has a uniform angle of advantage at 90 degrees. (Those from their physics days remember 90 degrees is the best angle to apply torque.) Also with miniballs, it takes forever to unattach and put back on when I do rotor repair, and it is one more oil you sometimes need to carry in your case as well as more you have to oil. It takes me about one minute to fully string all four valves. Miniballs take me a lot longer. Finally with miniballs the angle of the spatula is pretty much fixed isn't it? With string you can put the level of spatula to anything you want within reason, and some even prefer the pinky valve raised a little bit to make it easier to hit. String is the thing for me :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
On 6 Dec 2003, at 7:40 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? Schmid has a great article on this: Yeah, I've read it. The memory of it makes me smile everytime I wiggle my wonderfully fast, light, direct mini-ball operated titanium valves. You have to hand it to Englebert; not only does he make good horns, he's also a top marketeer. Stick to your strings brother ;o) All the best, Tom -- My ol' grandaddy taught me to always; post in plain text, quote only that portion to which you are replying, post replies at the bottom. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:31:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Titanium valves have the advantage not being very sensitive to change of temperatures. They are very light, near to aluminium, don't oxide , do (nearly) never stick. And if the stick, you just turn them on the wing in the back, forth back, and the work fine as usual. Just from my own experience as player (since 1957) and advisor for horn production (since 1978) producer of horns (since 1996). Hans Pizka I'm impressed with your experience. The point I tried to make is that technology is moving far more quickly than many realize. You pointed out better than I did exactly how much modern technology is being directed towards the horns you manufacture. you're obviously investing substantial money as your contribution to the overall technology, and to be sure you stay aware of any developments you might use to your advantage to make your horns even better. I do a lot of the same things in my work. I actually make the drawings for the CAD DXF files, and I work with several shops in the LA area to produce the finished product. What I'm developing now is an unconventional mirror for projection optics. Single formula lenses of elliptical geometry just don't work at small sizes. It is proving impossible to make the light plasma ball much smaller than two millimeters in diameter. To concentrate that light onto a six millimeter diagonal LCD, with any efficiency, is impossible. I have found that if I make a reflector composed of about a thousand individual lenses, each single lens can be designed to project a focused image of the arc onto the target. Since the reflector is only 65 millimeters in diameter, each individual reflector is quite small. A modern five axis CNC is capable of machining the mirrored surface. Once I have the surface done on a stainless steel form, and polished, it is used as a mandrel for electro-forming the finished reflector. Calculating the complex reflector surface and then machining it is only recently possible. Your description of your horn experiments gives me a good insight into your areas of interest. If I come across any new technology, here in the LA area, that might be of interest to you, I will send it on. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 8:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? I don't quite follow how mechanically it could be. When strings are used the force is always in the same direction. For mini-balls how could the force be as equally dispersed? String is the thing for me :) -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:53:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Experience says no. Absolutely not. Modern mini-ball linkage is fast, silent and very direct. I hope I never see another string. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
My strings have never broken before in my life. If you take care to maintain your strings and watch them AND replace them as needed they will never break. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 6:17:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
In a message dated 12/6/2003 6:17:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Valkhorn writes: Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Fascinating... I'd love to test that out. Right now I just use a spool of dacron (I have a good 100 meters left). So far I could replace the strings every week and have enough for two years. I wouldn't mind trying a spool of Polypropelene but so far my Dacron spool has about 40 years of string changes left in it. See my take again with mechanical linkages is that Murphy's Law applies. Sooner or later something on the linkage will become weak and break. It's the same reasoning behind a fuse, if you get too much electricity or too much heat across the whole line the fuse will burn out first before the rest does. It's also why there are grooves in the sidewalk. If the concrete is to crack it will most likely do it along the groove. In a mechanical linkage the weak spots are the ones that are the hardest to replace (the screws and the joints themselves). In a string linkage it is the string. What is more easier to repair? With string you can repair it in minutes (I mean in a pinch use dental floss if you have no string and its an emergency). Plus how hard is it to just store some extra strings in your case? With linkages how do you repair them? Not easily I can tell you... -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 8:59:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Come to think of it I have a 100yd. spool of 80lb test strength spectrum fishing line. It is way too thin though but doubling up might do the trick as well... You know my only beef with the stuff is you need a really sharp knife to cut it. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 9:00:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm experimenting with spectrum fishing line. Since it's half the size of equivalent strength dacron, I double it up and string with two strands. I figure it to be highly unlikely that both strands would break at once, so one strand breaking should alert me to restring the valve. I've had them on several horns for about a year now, and haven't seen any sign of wear. I've been warned that spectrum can break in unusual ways and that it dosen't withstand UV as well as dacron. I have a horn that's been strung with the same set of 36# dacron for at least 35 years with no appreciable wear. I keep spare strings and a tiny screw driver tucked into the hand guard, but I'm determined to see how long they last. I've worn a hole in the bell over the same period, so they will probably out last me, and the horn. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
RE: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Have you ever played Bruckner no.4 on first chair ? Your concentration is anywhere else than on your strings, specially if you are a very young player without the later acquired concert routine (no matter, having the set of strings ready in the horn case, the screwdriver, etc. You will sweat blood water then ... === -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves? Oh yes, and if you always have a prepared section of string and a small screwdriver in your case (I do all the time) you can fix the problem in a few seconds. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 2:31:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did ever break a string just ten minutes before Bruckner no.4 ? If this happen to you once, you would never trust any string action. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/hans.pizka%40t-online.de ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Not on Bruckner 4 just yet but I have had many trecherous soli in the middle of orchestra settings even sitting on first chair. Yes, not all solos are on first horn either. Full solo's are even worse. I'm soloing the Rosetti 5 concerto in E mind you (all of it) in two months with full orchestra. I will be a little nervous, and yes it's routine to be nervous. That's not an easy piece either. But I've practiced enough that I know I can play it cold. The same way was with my recital (of which I played Rosetti 5, Francaix's Divertimento and even a beautiful transcription of Faure by Daniel Bourge). I didn't pick easy pieces and I didn't walk out on stage unprepared. I wasn't nervous. For me I don't get nervous ever unless I don't practice something... and if I don't practice something or am unprepared I'm a fool to myself and have every right to be scared. But if you've practiced and you know how to play it your concentration will be on the piece and it will pull you through. I mean I never go into something unprepared, and that is my point. Not only should you be prepared with your lips and knowledge of music, but also with the proper tools to fix your hobby-horse. I never get nervous if I know without a doubt that the F will be there. It's the same in Strauss 1. Just know you can play it cold and you'll do fine. Of course it requires lots of practice, repetition, and woodshedding. -William In a message dated 12/6/2003 10:33:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Have you ever played Bruckner no.4 on first chair ? Your concentration is anywhere else than on your strings, specially if you are a very young player without the later acquired concert routine (no matter, having the set of strings ready in the horn case, the screwdriver, etc. You will sweat blood water then ... ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
On 5 Dec 2003, at 10:00 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plus what about making them from Aluminum? That's a much lighter weight but I have no idea how that would hold up as far as a valve is concerned. Looking for light weight valves? Talk to Finke. It'd be interesting to compare the weight of his polymer carbon rotor/stainless steel shaft with a Paxman titanium. http://www.finkehorns.de/English/home.htm HTH Tom ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Hornlist] Making Titanium Valves?
Interesting. However the mechanical linkages... to me they would appear to slow down the valve no matter what the valve was made of... I was talking about machining valves for existing horns... I think it can be done even without changing the rotor plates, etc. As to carbon-fiber valves, it's an interesting theorey but sometimes you need the inertia in a valve. I wouldn't want them to be too light. -William In a message dated 12/5/2003 4:31:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Looking for light weight valves? Talk to Finke. It'd be interesting to compare the weight of his polymer carbon rotor/stainless steel shaft with a Paxman titanium. ___ post: [EMAIL PROTECTED] set your options at http://music.memphis.edu/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
