Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Rick Fochtman]

---

Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) wrote:


I was a young lad I would watch (and listen) most intently as my father
would frequently open up the back of our tube TV to effect repairs.  I am
quite certain that I recall hearing a steady background hum of mumbled
curses emanating from the tubes. 
   



ITYM transformer.



Or maybe coming from Dad. :-)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Kenny Fogarty]

There is an excellent book on Lyons and the LEO computer system called
"A Computer Called LEO". I'd recommend it to anyone.

(watch the wrap)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Computer-Called-LEO-Worlds-Office/dp/1841151866/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214912651&sr=8-1

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
on 06/30/2008
   at 03:32 PM, "Bass, Walter W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I was a young lad I would watch (and listen) most intently as my father
>would frequently open up the back of our tube TV to effect repairs.  I am
>quite certain that I recall hearing a steady background hum of mumbled
>curses emanating from the tubes. 

ITYM transformer.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Andy Wood]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:21:46 -0500, Patrick O'Keefe 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...
>
>Certainly no reflection on Mr. Camimer but that Seattle Times article
>would have been a bit better if it had not said:
>" ...developed two more generations of LEO, the last with transistors,
>rather than the noisy vacuum tubes used in the first two models. ..."

In the early 1970s I acquired several boards from a scrapped LEO III (the first 
and only transistorised LEO). I scavenged various components like transistors 
and diodes from them. From memory, those boards were better for vultures 
like myself than later generation boards, as the wires on the transistors were 
left quite long, making them easier to salvage.

Of course, I now know I should have kept the boards intact, they would 
probably now be worth a bit as historic relics.  

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[William Donzelli]

> When I went to the University of Waterloo, in the mid 1970's, I had a 
> professor who did his masters at MIT.
> They had a vacuum tube computer that had all its tubes mounted on both walls 
> of what was basically a 6-metre corridor.
> Somebody would have to go in everyday and run the erasor end of a pencil 
> across all the tubes. If the lights shook, the tube touched had to be 
> replaced or re-seated.

3033s had something along those lines as well. During installation,
the engineer would give each module a whack with a little hammer, and
look for flipped bits.

--
Will

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Gerhard Postpischil]

Thompson, Steve wrote:

I don't remember what vacuum tube logic circuits looked like.  Are you
sure they were much noisier than the transisterized circuits that
replaced them?


I never saw the tubes in the earlier machines, except in 
pictures, but the last tube generation used any of a family of 
dual triodes: 12AU7, 12AW7, and 12AX7, also used back then in 
better radios and Hi-Fi equipment. Each pair was mounted in an 
open frame, approximately the size of a 200-300 page hardcover 
book, with discrete components (mostly resistors) aligned 
vertically. Additionally each module had two vertical shafts, 
one at each end, containing a cam that locked the module in place.


Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Ted MacNEIL]

>If you have an old amp with tubes, try this - just very lightly tap the side 
>of the tube with a pencil, and hear what sounds like a Chinese gong being 
>struck.

When I went to the University of Waterloo, in the mid 1970's, I had a professor 
who did his masters at MIT.
They had a vacuum tube computer that had all its tubes mounted on both walls of 
what was basically a 6-metre corridor.
Somebody would have to go in everyday and run the erasor end of a pencil across 
all the tubes. If the lights shook, the tube touched had to be replaced or 
re-seated.

-
Too busy driving to stop for gas!

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[William Donzelli]

Last post of mine on this subject, hopefully...

> But the big difference is, lots of voltage = large electromagnetic
> field. Low voltage with low amperage = small electromagnetic field.
> Tubes use large voltage differences, solid state uses small differences.

It all boils down to noise margins. High voltage (tube) digital
circuits enjoy extremely wide noise margins, so most electrical crap
can be safely ignored.

There were lots of other issues with tube digital that made design
"fun", but that can wait...

--
Will

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[William Donzelli]

> Now you're making a connection back to the original article.  That
> high-pitched "whine" was from high frequency magnetic fields causing the
> internal ferrous parts of the tube to vibrate.  This would sometimes be
> at harmonic frequencies that would cause the external tube or even the
> mounting surface to vibrate, making the sound audible.

No, that is not correct.

The whine or hum sometimes heard in electronics can generally be
traced to cheap transformers (the laminations vibrate if they are not
tight) or the hetrodyne action of two RF signals fairly close to each
other.

The tubes do not make noise. If the elements of the tube did vibrate
so much that they could be heard with your ear, their movements would
cause any signal they are trying to deal with get completely swamped
out. If you have an old amp with tubes, try this - just very lightly
tap the side of the tube with a pencil, and hear what sounds like a
Chinese gong being struck.

Movement and vibration of the elements was a very serious design
issue. Officially the effect is called "microphonics", and great
lengths were taken to make sure it was minimized.

>  Nearly all of
> what we encountered tubes in as consumers were analog devices.  Now put
> those tubes in a computer, a digital device and start pushing square
> waves through them instead of nicely curved analog wave forms.  Magnetic
> fields that are basically going from full on to full off repeatedly.
> Small ferrous parts getting jerked back and forth all over the place.  I
> bet that "hummer" buzzed like a hive of angry bees.

The fields in tubes were basically electromagnetic. Magnetic fields
were generally kept to a very minimum. On a grid, for example, the
current is tiny - almost not there at all. With no current, there is
no magnetic field.

--
Will

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Craddock, Chris]

> --
> > I remember my first (and last) radio kit emitted a barely audible
> > high-pitched "whine" when turned on.  The only other detail I
remember
> --

[] my guitar amp is full of tubes and it is really really noisy,
but only when cranked up to 11 man! :-)

Regardless of all that hilarity, I think we can all agree that the man
was a true giant in our field. His passing should be noted.

CC

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Bass, Walter W]

 
--
> I remember my first (and last) radio kit emitted a barely audible
> high-pitched "whine" when turned on.  The only other detail I remember
--

Now you're making a connection back to the original article.  That
high-pitched "whine" was from high frequency magnetic fields causing the
internal ferrous parts of the tube to vibrate.  This would sometimes be
at harmonic frequencies that would cause the external tube or even the
mounting surface to vibrate, making the sound audible.  Nearly all of
what we encountered tubes in as consumers were analog devices.  Now put
those tubes in a computer, a digital device and start pushing square
waves through them instead of nicely curved analog wave forms.  Magnetic
fields that are basically going from full on to full off repeatedly.
Small ferrous parts getting jerked back and forth all over the place.  I
bet that "hummer" buzzed like a hive of angry bees.

Bill Bass
Senior Applications Developer
United Health Care
Greenville, SC


This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or 
proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to 
which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended 
recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is 
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the 
sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 3:13 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:30:58 -0400, Thompson, Steve
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...
>No, the writer is quite technically astute and meant that the vacuum 
>tube circuits with their chokes, coils, etc. were ELECTRICALLY noisy.
>...

You may be right.  You are definitely giving the author more credit than
I did.  I did briefly wonder if he might be talking about microphonics,
but decided that would have been a possible issue in an analog system
but would have been causght as a dead device by whatever error detection
was (hopefully) used.

I don't remember what vacuum tube logic circuits looked like.  Are you
sure they were much noisier than the transisterized circuits that
replaced them?


Well, given the Faday shielding that was needed between stages of
certain tube-type radios to prevent inductive coupling...

And then there are the formulae for gauss. If you take the B+
(200-500VDC) for the plate voltages (I seem to recall that logic only
used Triodes, and possibly dual Triodes), add to that the speed at which
you would want to change to grid voltage (from "open" to cut-off to give
1/0 or 0/1), and you will generate a very noisy square-wave. And
unshielded leads acted like acted like antennae. And then, you could
sometimes cross-couple circuits because of a bad choke/capacitor to
shield one stage from another using the same B+ feed... 

Man does this take me back a few years. I haven't used those formulae in
years and just realized I've all but forgotten all of them.

Now, going to transistors, one had to be very careful to avoid cross
coupling between layers (inductive and capacitive), or you would
generate noise into another circuit...

But the big difference is, lots of voltage = large electromagnetic
field. Low voltage with low amperage = small electromagnetic field.
Tubes use large voltage differences, solid state uses small differences.

Regards,
Steve Thompson

-- All opinions expressed by me are my own and may not necessarily
reflect those of my employer. --

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bass, Walter W
> 
> > --
> > Tubes can be VERY noisy, electrically. Even if they're virtually 
> > silent when you're standing there listening.
> > --
> 
> I was a young lad I would watch (and listen) most intently as 
> my father would frequently open up the back of our tube TV to 
> effect repairs.  I am quite certain that I recall hearing a 
> steady background hum of mumbled curses emanating from the 
> tubes.  If you scale that up by the far greater number of 
> tubes which a ca. 1950's computer must have contained vs. the 
> 1950's TV, I'm quite certain the noise level might have been 
> considered objectionable to some.

I remember my first (and last) radio kit emitted a barely audible
high-pitched "whine" when turned on.  The only other detail I remember
are the tubes it used:  One each 12SA7, 12SK7, 12SQ7, 50L6 and 35Z5.

-jc-

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Bass, Walter W]

> --
> Tubes can be VERY noisy, electrically. Even if they're 
> virtually silent 
> when you're standing there listening.
> --

I was a young lad I would watch (and listen) most intently as my father
would frequently open up the back of our tube TV to effect repairs.  I
am quite certain that I recall hearing a steady background hum of
mumbled curses emanating from the tubes.  If you scale that up by the
far greater number of tubes which a ca. 1950's computer must have
contained vs. the 1950's TV, I'm quite certain the noise level might
have been considered objectionable to some.

Bill Bass
Senior Applications Developer
United Health Care
Greenville, SC


This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or 
proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to 
which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended 
recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is 
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the 
sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Rick Fochtman]

-
No, the writer is quite technically astute and meant that the vacuum 
tube circuits with their chokes, coils, etc. were ELECTRICALLY noisy. 
But knowing that their audience wouldn't have a clue (as the editor 
didn't either) and so cut all that out so that it just said that the 
vacuum tubes were noisy (since the editor's only exposure to vacuum 
tubes are at their bank's drive-in).



I sioncerely doubt if that editor has any comprehension of a vacuum 
tube. He's probably young enough to be a son to many of us.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Rick Fochtman]

--

Noisy vacuum tubes?  Vacuum tubes had a number of drawbacks 
but I don't recall their being particularly noisy.   I can only assume
the original models either had a bunch of clattering relays, or 
noisy cooling systems.
 


--
Tubes can be VERY noisy, electrically. Even if they're virtually silent 
when you're standing there listening.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:30:58 -0400, Thompson, Steve 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

...
>No, the writer is quite technically astute and meant that the vacuum
>tube circuits with their chokes, coils, etc. were ELECTRICALLY noisy.
>...

You may be right.  You are definitely giving the author more credit
than I did.  I did briefly wonder if he might be talking about 
microphonics, but decided that would have been a possible issue
in an analog system but would have been causght as a dead 
device by whatever error detection was (hopefully) used.

I don't remember what vacuum tube logic circuits looked like.  Are 
you sure they were much noisier than the transisterized circuits
that replaced them?

Pat O'Keefe   

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[William Donzelli]

> No, the writer is quite technically astute and meant that the vacuum
> tube circuits with their chokes, coils, etc. were ELECTRICALLY noisy.
> But knowing that their audience wouldn't have a clue (as the editor
> didn't either) and so cut all that out so that it just said that the
> vacuum tubes were noisy (since the editor's only exposure to vacuum
> tubes are at their bank's drive-in).
> 

Noticing the sarcasm, but...

Tubes used in computer applications can indeed be noisy, but that is
not the issue. The noise can be tolerated quite easily in those high
voltage digital circuits. In fact, most computer tubes of the 1940s
and 50s were more or less standard radio types, maybe souped up a
little in some areas, but were tested using less stringent noise
tests. Likewise, computer tubes often were tested with less stringent
tests concerning balance of sections and hum. These qualities, like
noise,  just did not matter in a mainframe logic module.

Noise was more of an issue with the early semiconductors. They were
really rather poor performers, especially the British types, so noise
started to become a big issue. The low voltage everything operated at
in the transistor machines meant that external and internal
interference could result in garbage on the signal lines that could
get uncomfortably close to logic thresholds - flipped bits.

The article basically gets it wrong.

--
Will, wanting a 709

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Thompson, Steve]

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 2:22 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:43:08 +0200, Thomas Berg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>...
>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008023617_camin
erobit29.html)
>...

Certainly no reflection on Mr. Camimer but that Seattle Times article
would have been a bit better if it had not said:  
" ...developed two more generations of LEO, the last with transistors,
rather than the noisy vacuum tubes used in the first two models. ..."

Noisy vacuum tubes?  Vacuum tubes had a number of drawbacks 
but I don't recall their being particularly noisy.   I can only assume
the original models either had a bunch of clattering relays, or noisy
cooling systems.


No, the writer is quite technically astute and meant that the vacuum
tube circuits with their chokes, coils, etc. were ELECTRICALLY noisy.
But knowing that their audience wouldn't have a clue (as the editor
didn't either) and so cut all that out so that it just said that the
vacuum tubes were noisy (since the editor's only exposure to vacuum
tubes are at their bank's drive-in).


Regards,
Steve.T

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Patrick O'Keefe]

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:43:08 +0200, Thomas Berg 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>...
>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008023617_camin
erobit29.html)
>...

Certainly no reflection on Mr. Camimer but that Seattle Times article 
would have been a bit better if it had not said:  
" ...developed two more generations of LEO, the last with transistors, 
rather than the noisy vacuum tubes used in the first two models. ..."

Noisy vacuum tubes?  Vacuum tubes had a number of drawbacks 
but I don't recall their being particularly noisy.   I can only assume
the original models either had a bunch of clattering relays, or 
noisy cooling systems.

Pat O'Keefe 

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

Re: David Caminer (1915-2008)

[Thomas Berg]

As it was very interesting reading for me and, I think, for others, I 
here citate
from an article ( 
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008023617_caminerobit29.html 
):


By DOUGLAS MARTIN 



The New York Times

David Caminer, who as an employee of a legendary chain of British tea shops
found the earliest ways to use a computer for business purposes, including
standardizing flavorful, cost-effective cups of tea, died June 19 in 
London.

He was 92.

The death was announced by the Leo Computers Society, whose purpose is to
keep alive the memory of LEO, the computer Mr. Caminer helped develop for
J. Lyons & Co. It was the world's first business computer, a distinction 
certified

by Guinness World Records.

Lyons was the first company to computerize its commercial operations, 
partly
because it had so many: It had more than 200 teahouses in London and its 
suburbs,
with each Lyons Corner House daily generating thousands of paper 
receipts and

needing scores of fresh-baked items.

In addition to running the tea shops, Lyons catered large events such as 
tennis at
Wimbledon and garden parties at Windsor Castle; it also operated hotels, 
laundries,

and ice-cream, candy and meat-pie companies. And tea plantations.

   . . .

The result was LEO, its name derived from Lyons Electronic Office. The 
Economist

magazine called it "the first dedicated business machine to operate on the
'stored program principle,' meaning that it could be quickly 
reconfigured to perform

different tasks by loading a new program."

"LEO's early success owed less to its hardware than to its highly 
innovative systems-oriented
approach to programming, devised and led by David Caminer," Computer 
Weekly said last year.


LEO performed its first calculation on Nov. 17, 1951, running a program 
to evaluate costs,
prices and margins of that week's baked output. At that moment, Lyons 
was years ahead of

IBM and the other companies that eventually overtook it.

. . .



Thomas Berg


==  john gilmore  ==  wrote2008-06-29 16:27:
The Lyons Corner Shops predeceased him, and David Caminer has now joined them.  
 
One of the principal designers of LEO, the first business computer, he was a programmer of genius and an anomaly: Think, as a British obituary writer suggested, of McDonald's designing the Internet to get some notion of just how unprecedented his achievements were.
 
He is not nearly so well known outside the UK as he should be, and it is too bad that a spate of obituaries should be the occasion for putting an end to his obscurity elsewhere.John GilmoreAshland, MA 01721-1817USA 
_

Enter the Zune-A-Day Giveaway for your chance to win — day after day after day
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V1
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html


  


--

__

   Mundus Vult Decipi
__


They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety 
deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
- Groucho Marx

 



--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html

David Caminer (1915-2008)

[john gilmore]

The Lyons Corner Shops predeceased him, and David Caminer has now joined them.  
 
One of the principal designers of LEO, the first business computer, he was a 
programmer of genius and an anomaly: Think, as a British obituary writer 
suggested, of McDonald's designing the Internet to get some notion of just how 
unprecedented his achievements were.
 
He is not nearly so well known outside the UK as he should be, and it is too 
bad that a spate of obituaries should be the occasion for putting an end to his 
obscurity elsewhere.John GilmoreAshland, MA 01721-1817USA 
_
Enter the Zune-A-Day Giveaway for your chance to win — day after day after day
http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/ZuneADay/?locale=en-US&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Mobile_Zune_V1
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO
Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html