Re: HP annual report

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 02/09/2006
   at 04:34 PM, Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>If an alternative ISPF interface has been there for decades and
>people  aren't using it,

That might be true where they make a conscious decision to not use it.
But what about the many cases where users simply don't know about the
(no longer) new facilities? Nor is the problem limited to ISPF.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: HP annual report

[Don Leahy]

- Original Message - 
From: "James Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: HP annual report





As systems programmers we then complain about new functions not being
exploited - surely we have a responsibility to at least 'point people' in
the right direction.



And also, to *not* becoming an obstacle preventing people from using new 
features.  I know of a shop that until recently was using an ISPCMDS table 
that was 10 years out of date.  Many 'new' commands like DDLIST, DTEST, 
CMDE, AUTOTYPE and NRETRIEV etc were simply not available, even though a 
current version of ISPF was installed.


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Re: HP annual report

[Don Leahy]

Edit's Compare is a great feature.  Used in conjunction with the MD (Make 
Data) line command it is a nearly effortless way to retrofit code changes.


- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Bielefeld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: HP annual report



I didn't know you can do compare in edit.  I just went into edit and
typed in compare, and it came up with a tutorial.  I'll have to read
it.  And I always thought I kept up with ISPF.  I guess that's why I
keep following this list - sometimes I learn something!

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. Systems Programmer
P&H Mining Equipment
414-671-7849
Milwaukee, Wisconsin


- Original Message -
From: Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, February 9, 2006 10:34 am

have waited until the first time someone went into ISPF option
3.12 or 3.13,
and then I would have displayed a one-time message saying
something like
"Did you know you can now run a compare from within an edit
session? This is
how you do it." I'm not saying this would have been a perfect
solution, but
(IMO) it would have been better than nothing.


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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: Desi de la Garza <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
F1 HELP KEY works fine here.


I'm glad to hear it. It gives me hope that all the time and effort I spend 
creating tutorials, help messages, keyshelp, field-level help (etc), isn't 
completely wasted. Sigh; if only there were more people like you.   :-)


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
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Re: HP annual report

[Eric Bielefeld]

I didn't know you can do compare in edit.  I just went into edit and 
typed in compare, and it came up with a tutorial.  I'll have to read 
it.  And I always thought I kept up with ISPF.  I guess that's why I 
keep following this list - sometimes I learn something!

Eric Bielefeld
Sr. Systems Programmer
P&H Mining Equipment
414-671-7849
Milwaukee, Wisconsin


- Original Message -
From: Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, February 9, 2006 10:34 am
> have waited until the first time someone went into ISPF option 
> 3.12 or 3.13, 
> and then I would have displayed a one-time message saying 
> something like 
> "Did you know you can now run a compare from within an edit 
> session? This is 
> how you do it." I'm not saying this would have been a perfect 
> solution, but 
> (IMO) it would have been better than nothing.

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Re: HP annual report

[Desi de la Garza]

F1 HELP KEY works fine here.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dave Salt
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 11:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: HP annual report

>From: Tom Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>My experience is 60-85% of the software audience just doesn't read.  They
>expect others to explain the material to them.

Tom,

My experience is similar to yours. If something is put directly in front of 
someone (e.g. in the form of a message or pop-up window etc), at least some 
people will read it. If it's put in a tutorial or long help message (i.e. 
something that requires someone to press the F1 help key), the chances of it

being read are somewhere between slim and none. This is why I think all 
vendors should at least try to put features in plain view, and not hide them

in manuals or tutorials or drop-down menus (etc).

Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: Tom Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My experience is 60-85% of the software audience just doesn't read.  They
expect others to explain the material to them.


Tom,

My experience is similar to yours. If something is put directly in front of 
someone (e.g. in the form of a message or pop-up window etc), at least some 
people will read it. If it's put in a tutorial or long help message (i.e. 
something that requires someone to press the F1 help key), the chances of it 
being read are somewhere between slim and none. This is why I think all 
vendors should at least try to put features in plain view, and not hide them 
in manuals or tutorials or drop-down menus (etc).


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

In an earlier email, Dave Salt said:
1) If something is put in front of someone (even if it's as small as a new 
option on a menu), people will eventually discover it. If it's buried in 
tutorials and/or user manuals, few people will ever discover it.


Steve Comstock replied:

This only works if it can be packaged that way. Your
examples of HILITE and COMPARE commands were added
as part of the editor; these were added as part of
the drop down menus but hardly anyone ever uses those,
in my experience.


Steve, I agree completely. Putting things in drop-down menus is almost as 
good as burying them. I never use drop-down menus as I think there are FAR 
better ways to make users aware of available features. For example, if it 
had been my responsibility to introduce the HILITE and COMPARE commands, 
this is how I would have approached it:


For HILITE, I would have made it the default setting. When someone went into 
an edit profile for the first time, I would have turned HILITE on and 
displayed a message something along the lines of 'Highlighting has been 
turned on. If you want to turn it off, here's how". For COMPARE, I would 
have waited until the first time someone went into ISPF option 3.12 or 3.13, 
and then I would have displayed a one-time message saying something like 
"Did you know you can now run a compare from within an edit session? This is 
how you do it." I'm not saying this would have been a perfect solution, but 
(IMO) it would have been better than nothing.


In an earlier email, Dave Salt said:
2) If software is user-friendly and 'intuitively obvious', people will try 
it. If it's easy to learn and use, they'll carry on using it. Otherwise, 
they'll never use it again.


Steve Comstock replied:

Well, yes, that's always been true.


Although the statement might have seemed obvious, the reason I made it was 
because I was replying to an email in which the following was said:



From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My experience has been that the users don't learn the alternative
interfaces that are there, even when they have been available for
decades.


If an alternative ISPF interface has been there for decades and people 
aren't using it, then something is wrong with it. Namely, it's either too 
complicated to learn/use, or it just doesn't provide enough benefit to make 
it worthwhile.


An alternative ISPF interface has to be BOTH of the following: (a) more 
powerful than the regular interface and (b) easier to use than the regular 
interface. This isn't easy to achieve, because if something is more powerful 
then usually it's more complex. Take the ISPF Workplace (i.e. ISPF option 
11) as a prime example. However, it IS possible to acheive both things. The 
case I stated where 1,000 people began using an alternate ISPF interface 
after simply stumbling across it (i.e. with no formal introduction or 
training whatsoever) is a prime example.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report

[Tom Schmidt]

Dave,

Unless the vendors produce podcasts they will miss a growing percentage of
their audience.

My experience is 60-85% of the software audience just doesn't read.  They
expect others to explain the material to them.



On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:36:40 +, Dave Salt wrote:

>I think the responsibility for informing people of new software
>functionality should fall primarily on the software vendor, secondarily on
>company management, and finally (and to a much lesser extent) on the actual
>individual who uses the software.
>
>In the case of management, making employees aware of changes can be
>accomplished in various ways, whether it be as formal as a training class
>or as simple as a memo. It should be part of someones job description
>(e.g. the systems programmer who installs each new release or any other
>knowledgable individual) to ensure this is done.
>
>In the case of a software vendor, I believe all of the following should be
>mandatory:
>
>1) A section at the start of the user guide/reference manual should cover
>all new product features.
>2) A tutorial, available directly from the primary tutorial, should cover
>all new product features.
>3) When a user first enters a new product version, they should
>automatically see a message saying "This is a new version, would you like
>to see the new features tutorial now or defer to later?"
>
>In addition, if there are ways to highlight new features (such as
>displaying a message the first time a certain option is selected), that
>should be done as well. Field-level help, context sensitive tutorials,
>messages that actually convey meaningful information (etc) all go without
>saying. In other words, vendors should do absolutely everything in their
>power to make their software as easy to use as humanly possible.

Agreed (see above).

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: James Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
As systems programmers we then complain about new functions not being
exploited - surely we have a responsibility to at least 'point people' in
the right direction.


James,

I think the responsibility for informing people of new software 
functionality should fall primarily on the software vendor, secondarily on 
company management, and finally (and to a much lesser extent) on the actual 
individual who uses the software.


In the case of management, making employees aware of changes can be 
accomplished in various ways, whether it be as formal as a training class or 
as simple as a memo. It should be part of someones job description (e.g. the 
systems programmer who installs each new release or any other knowledgable 
individual) to ensure this is done.


In the case of a software vendor, I believe all of the following should be 
mandatory:


1) A section at the start of the user guide/reference manual should cover 
all new product features.
2) A tutorial, available directly from the primary tutorial, should cover 
all new product features.
3) When a user first enters a new product version, they should automatically 
see a message saying "This is a new version, would you like to see the new 
features tutorial now or defer to later?"


In addition, if there are ways to highlight new features (such as displaying 
a message the first time a certain option is selected), that should be done 
as well. Field-level help, context sensitive tutorials, messages that 
actually convey meaningful information (etc) all go without saying. In other 
words, vendors should do absolutely everything in their power to make their 
software as easy to use as humanly possible.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report

[Steve Comstock]

Dave Salt wrote:

From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My experience has been that the users don't learn the alternative
interfaces that are there, even when they have been available for
decades.



I agree with you to a certain extent. Many people move blindly from one 
release of an operating system to the next with absolutely no idea of 
the enhancements made available in each new release. A prime example 
would be the edit COMPARE and HILITE commands, which few people even 
seem to know exist. However, this isn't the fault of over-worked 
employees who simply don't have time to check out new operating system 
features. Instead, blame lies mostly with software vendors who bury new 
features in layers of tutorials instead of making them obvious, and 
employers who don't take the time to train and educate their workforce.


Right. I've even packaged "Update" courses, but
managers always seem to think "My people already
know all that," despite clear evidence to the
contrary. My favorite examples are named screens,
more than two split screens, and the RETP command.




Having said all that, there ARE ways to overcome both problems. For 
example, an alternative to the regular ISPF interface was installed at a 
certain company. There were no announcements and no education 
whatsoever. The only way employees knew the new interface existed was 
because a new option appeared on the ISPF primary option menu. Some time 
afterwards, usage logs showed that more than 1,000 employees (almost the 
entire IT department) was using the new ISPF interface on a regular basis.


There are 2 morals to this story:

1) If something is put in front of someone (even if it's as small as a 
new option on a menu), people will eventually discover it. If it's 
buried in tutorials and/or user manuals, few people will ever discover it.


This only works if it can be packaged that way. Your
examples of HILITE and COMPARE commands were added
as part of the editor; these were added as part of
the drop down menus but hardly anyone ever uses those,
in my experience.



2) If software is user-friendly and 'intuitively obvious', people will 
try it. If it's easy to learn and use, they'll carry on using it. 
Otherwise, they'll never use it again.


Well, yes, that's always been true.

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

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Re: HP annual report

[James Smith]

Dave 

I have seen numerous new operating system releases being installed as well
as software installs (CICS, DB2, vendor products etc.,) where the people
involved often do a great job of installing, testing, customizing etc...
only they then somehow 'forget' to tell the 'end user' (be they operators,
sysprogs, developers or whatever) that a) a new product has been installed
and to b) highlight the new functionality. 

The latter doesn't involve a rewrite of the manuals -- just a bullet point
list of new functions (or even a list of functions which have been removed).

As systems programmers we then complain about new functions not being
exploited - surely we have a responsibility to at least 'point people' in
the right direction.

Jim S

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Dave Salt
Sent: 09 February 2006 09:37
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: HP annual report

>

Having said all that, there ARE ways to overcome both problems. For example,

an alternative to the regular ISPF interface was installed at a certain 
company. There were no announcements and no education whatsoever. The only 
way employees knew the new interface existed was because a new option 
appeared on the ISPF primary option menu. Some time afterwards, usage logs 
showed that more than 1,000 employees (almost the entire IT department) was 
using the new ISPF interface on a regular basis.

There are 2 morals to this story:

1) If something is put in front of someone (even if it's as small as a new 
option on a menu), people will eventually discover it. If it's buried in 
tutorials and/or user manuals, few people will ever discover it.

2) If software is user-friendly and 'intuitively obvious', people will try 
it. If it's easy to learn and use, they'll carry on using it. Otherwise, 
they'll never use it again.

Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report

[R.S.]

Ted MacNEIL wrote:


IBM is pushing 2 releases out every year



Not since 1.4 came out.
IE: it's been three years since IBM went to one release a year.


Not exactly.
...
z/OS 1.3
 6 months
z/OS 1.4
 18 months
z/OS 1.5
 6 months
z/OS 1.6
 12 months
z/OS 1.7
(FUTURE)
 12 months
z/OS next release.

--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: HP annual report

[Ted MacNEIL]

>IBM is pushing 2 releases out every year

Not since 1.4 came out.
IE: it's been three years since IBM went to one release a year.


-
-teD

I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in!

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Re: HP annual report

[Ed Gould]

On Feb 8, 2006, at 7:36 PM, Dave Salt wrote:


From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My experience has been that the users don't learn the alternative
interfaces that are there, even when they have been available for
decades.


I agree with you to a certain extent. Many people move blindly from  
one release of an operating system to the next with absolutely no  
idea of the enhancements made available in each new release. A  
prime example would be the edit COMPARE and HILITE commands, which  
few people even seem to know exist. However, this isn't the fault  
of over-worked employees who simply don't have time to check out  
new operating system features. Instead, blame lies mostly with  
software vendors who bury new features in layers of tutorials  
instead of making them obvious, and employers who don't take the  
time to train and educate their workforce.


Having said all that, there ARE ways to overcome both problems. For  
example, an alternative to the regular ISPF interface was installed  
at a certain company. There were no announcements and no education  
whatsoever. The only way employees knew the new interface existed  
was because a new option appeared on the ISPF primary option menu.  
Some time afterwards, usage logs showed that more than 1,000  
employees (almost the entire IT department) was using the new ISPF  
interface on a regular basis.


There are 2 morals to this story:

1) If something is put in front of someone (even if it's as small  
as a new option on a menu), people will eventually discover it. If  
it's buried in tutorials and/or user manuals, few people will ever  
discover it.


2) If software is user-friendly and 'intuitively obvious', people  
will try it. If it's easy to learn and use, they'll carry on using  
it. Otherwise, they'll never use it again.




Dave:

I think everyone is guilty of not knowing ALL the new features of  
each (or a few) of the components. Who is at fault? IBM in one  
acronym, IMO.
IBM is pushing 2 releases out every year and there just is not enough  
time to even broach the "improvements". IBM sort of makes a rough  
pitch on the big changes but the smaller the change seems to get lost  
in the dust.


To me this would be a super on-going SHARE session(s).  At least you  
could ask a question on something specific and get an answer from an  
expert (hopefully) in the area.  There could be two sessions one in  
the morning (say) that revolves around the OS and then in the  
afternoon one for "applications" (ISPF, rexx etc).


What do others think of this idea?

Ed

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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: "Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My experience has been that the users don't learn the alternative
interfaces that are there, even when they have been available for
decades.


I agree with you to a certain extent. Many people move blindly from one 
release of an operating system to the next with absolutely no idea of the 
enhancements made available in each new release. A prime example would be 
the edit COMPARE and HILITE commands, which few people even seem to know 
exist. However, this isn't the fault of over-worked employees who simply 
don't have time to check out new operating system features. Instead, blame 
lies mostly with software vendors who bury new features in layers of 
tutorials instead of making them obvious, and employers who don't take the 
time to train and educate their workforce.


Having said all that, there ARE ways to overcome both problems. For example, 
an alternative to the regular ISPF interface was installed at a certain 
company. There were no announcements and no education whatsoever. The only 
way employees knew the new interface existed was because a new option 
appeared on the ISPF primary option menu. Some time afterwards, usage logs 
showed that more than 1,000 employees (almost the entire IT department) was 
using the new ISPF interface on a regular basis.


There are 2 morals to this story:

1) If something is put in front of someone (even if it's as small as a new 
option on a menu), people will eventually discover it. If it's buried in 
tutorials and/or user manuals, few people will ever discover it.


2) If software is user-friendly and 'intuitively obvious', people will try 
it. If it's easy to learn and use, they'll carry on using it. Otherwise, 
they'll never use it again.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 02/07/2006
   at 08:28 PM, Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>In my opinion, people will NEVER get excited about using mainframes
>as long  as they have no option but to work with the default
>interface.

My experience has been that the users don't learn the alternative
interfaces that are there, even when they have been available for
decades. I've lost track of the number of things that "MVS can't do"
or "VM can't do" that I had been routinely doing. IMHO there's a much
bigger problem in education and PR then there is in actual facilities.
Not that there aren't improvements I'd like to see in facilities ;-)
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: HP annual report

[Steve Comstock]

Tom Schmidt wrote:
[snip]


Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.



(IBM Japan???  You'll be one of the tallest guys on any street corner
there.)


How do you know he's not short anyway?

-Steve Comstock

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Re: HP annual report

[Tom Schmidt]

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:58:50 -0700, Timothy Sipples wrote:
...
>There have also been rumblings of 3270 user interface discontinuance for
>certain subsystems (or parts of subsystems). CICS V3R2 is one example
>where you'll start to see that happen.

I certainly hope, even pray, that CICS' user interface replacement won't be
an off-the-shelf web browser.  If it is, expect to see corporate "transfers
of wealth" involving BHO (browser helper objects or browser hacker objects)
insertions into corporate browsers after surfing "off-network" sites.

...

>- - - - -
>Timothy F. Sipples
>Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
>IBM Japan, Ltd.

(IBM Japan???  You'll be one of the tallest guys on any street corner
there.)

--
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Madison, WI

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Re: HP annual report

[Timothy Sipples]

>In my opinion, people will NEVER get excited about using mainframes as 
long 
>as they have no option but to work with the default interface.

I agree with that. Here's what's happening.

There's some interesting work afoot on the "new face of the mainframe," 
and I know many people have heard about the work in this area at SHARE and 
other conferences. This is the year when that work bears fruit. Candle was 
perhaps IBM's best ever acquisition, by the way.

IBM is promoting Vanguard's RACF graphical management tools very 
aggressively.

Development tooling has also been totally revamped around Eclipse. You set 
a breakpoint in COBOL exactly the same way as you do in Java now. (It's 
uncanny.) CA just announced an Eclipse plug-in for Endevor, so that helps 
even more shops.

There have also been rumblings of 3270 user interface discontinuance for 
certain subsystems (or parts of subsystems). CICS V3R2 is one example 
where you'll start to see that happen.

The (controversial, yes) HMC just got revamped with System z9.

It's worth mentioning that the second Web server in the world ran on a 
mainframe (at Stanford), and the first Web application (i.e. more than 
static content) was a pre-CGI application at CERN that provided Web access 
to a VM find program. Mainframes have been doing GUI for a long, long time 
-- and Web longer than Solaris, Windows, or just about anything else 
(except NeXT UNIX). But the GUI movement for routine system management and 
development has come hot and heavy for the past couple years, and you're 
going to see more of that this year.

This issue is partly a challenge for mainframe organizations. If users 
want Web interfaces, make sure you deliver them. It's very, very easy to 
do almost instantly. (HATS is an excellent example, and it runs very well 
indeed on z/OS or Linux on z.) Do it. Mainframes are as youthful as you 
want them to be.

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: HP annual report

[Don Leahy]

Dave's "alternative interface",  SimpList, is no slouch either.  :-)

My opinion is already on the record in a review that originally appeared in 
the Feb 2005 issue of  Technical Support. 
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/NaspaSIM05.pdf
- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Salt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: HP annual report




I'll be the first to admit I have a biased point of view, as I make a 
living developing an alternative interface. The reason I started 
developing the product is because I feel so strongly about the issue. In 
fact, I feel so strongly about it I'd much rather see companies use ANY 
product that improves the mainframe interface, instead of giving people 
the totally false and misleading impression that the default interface is 
the only interface available.


 


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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: Steve Comstock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Until the up and coming folks get excited about what
mainframes can do and the advantages they offer (and
this has to include cost effectiveness), the trend in
the number of companies using IBM mainframes can only
be downward.


In my opinion, people will NEVER get excited about using mainframes as long 
as they have no option but to work with the default interface. Constantly 
swapping between screens and typing in data set names all day long is a 
complete and utter waste of time. The learning curve and lowered 
productivity costs companies billions of dollars a year. From a user 
perspective, working with the default mainframe interface is tedious, 
frustrating, time-consuming, and error prone.  More than that, it 
contributes to anti-mainframe sentiment among people who would much rather 
use a mouse instead of a keyboard.


I'll be the first to admit I have a biased point of view, as I make a living 
developing an alternative interface. The reason I started developing the 
product is because I feel so strongly about the issue. In fact, I feel so 
strongly about it I'd much rather see companies use ANY product that 
improves the mainframe interface, instead of giving people the totally false 
and misleading impression that the default interface is the only interface 
available.


Some products cost money and some products are free. Some offer a quantum 
leap forward, comparable to using Windows versus DOS. It's unimaginable to 
me that any company would use DOS in their PC environment, when dramatically 
more productive alternatives are available. Yet for some strange reason, 
this same common-sense attitude just doesn't seem to exist when people 
consider (or more accurately DON'T consider) the various alternative 
interfaces available for the mainframe.


To me, improving productivity and user experience are two of the most 
fundamental steps towards seeing the mainframe survive and flourish well 
into the future. Both of these steps can be accomplished very easily by 
simply installing one of many different alternative interface products 
available on the market. For example:


ISPF Productivity Tool (formerly Spiffy) - by IBM
Favorites - by ASG
JumpList - a free product available on the CBT tapes

Note: I'm not associated with any of the above products in any way.

Dave Salt

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Re: HP annual report

[Dean Kent]

From: Dave Salt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 >I agree; HP is a fine company. That's why I invest in their stock and why I 
>just received their annual report. Millions of other investors saw it as 
>well, and like me they also read the unchallenged statement from the CEO 
>regarding the declining use of the mainframe.

They could always take a cue from Monty Python and make a fine argument by 
saying "No it isn't".   That would satisfy  those who want an answer from IBM, 
as well as the bigwigs within the mainframe division(s) of IBM that act like 
deer in the headlights of the distributed systems truck bearing down on them.

:-).

>Dave Salt
>SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
>http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

Regards,
 Dean Kent
 
Speaking for myself, not my employer, my business partners, my family, my 
friends nor my enemies.



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Re: HP annual report

[Dave Salt]

From: Timothy Sipples <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Continued movement"? Didn't IBM just announce its best mainframe revenue
quarter since 1998 (the year of great Y2K preparation)? (Mainframes cost
less than they did in 1998, by the way.) When is this movement going to
start?


Years ago it was commonly perceived that VHS was going to win the VHS/Beta 
war, and this became a self-fulfilling prophesy. Likewise, the decline of 
the mainframe is also commonly perceived. Whether it becomes a 
self-fulfilling prophesy depends in large part on how much IBM is willing to 
challenge the perception.



I'd also be interested to know why HP recently *entered* the mainframe
outsourcing business. My best guess is that HP identified an opportunity.
Better not tell the CEO. :-)


My best guess is that HP identified an opportunity all right; it's far 
easier to persuade a customer to move from mainframes to PC's when you're 
already running their IT department.



And yet another reminder: I do not speak for IBM. Especially about HP,
which is a fine company, truly.


I agree; HP is a fine company. That's why I invest in their stock and why I 
just received their annual report. Millions of other investors saw it as 
well, and like me they also read the unchallenged statement from the CEO 
regarding the declining use of the mainframe.


Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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Re: HP annual report (was: Mainframe Programmer on EBay)

[Ed Finnell]

 
In a message dated 2/6/2006 9:59:28 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

"The  best way to steer a company toward growth is to look out four or five  
years at the big market trends evolving, and then work backward to  identify 
opportunities...   There will be continued movement  toward a lower cost, 
industry-standard, distributed computing environment  and a shift away from 
mainframe computing".



>>
Isn't this identically what Garner said 20 years  ago?

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Re: HP annual report

[Steve Comstock]

Timothy Sipples wrote:
[snip]

Darn that pesky IBM, investing billions year after year to 
deliver the industry's premier business servers year after year. Haven't 
they heard that what customers really want are systems that require little 
or no R&D expense?




And yet I still find prospect after prospect saying they
don't have a mainframe or they are moving off it, so they
are not interested in investing in training for their
mainframe programmers.

This battle is not over, granted, but the hearts and
minds of the young techies and, more importantly, the
young managers, have not been won over to mainframes.

Until the up and coming folks get excited about what
mainframes can do and the advantages they offer (and
this has to include cost effectiveness), the trend in
the number of companies using IBM mainframes can only
be downward.

And don't throw out the training in the universities
program as the answer. It's part of the answer but
a long way from the solution.

All things have their life cycles. Maybe the mainframe
is at the end of its lifetime, or nearing it. I don't
think it has to be, but nothing happens without effort,
and IBM still has a ways to go.

And so do we all.

Kind regards,

-Steve Comstock
The Trainer's Friend, Inc.

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Re: HP annual report (was: Mainframe Programmer on EBay)

[Chase, John]

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Dave Salt
> 
> > > Rare Mainframe programmer in near mint condition!!!
> > > A rare find in the IT world!
> 
> He may as well try for the big bucks while he can, as it 
> looks like he won't be needed soon. The CEO and President of 
> Hewlett-Packard made the following comment in the opening 
> statement of this years annual report:
> 
> "The best way to steer a company toward growth is to look out 
> four or five years at the big market trends evolving, and 
> then work backward to identify opportunities...  
> There will be continued movement toward a lower cost, 
> industry-standard, distributed computing environment and a 
> shift away from mainframe computing".

Another way to say it:  "... continued movement into the sea of mediocrity
and away from islands of stability and reliability," driven by the eternal
quest for instant gratification.

Remember that even the pioneer seafarers eventually returned to land.

> Does this mean HP is going to stop making mainframes?;-)

More likely they will *start* making them  :-)

-jc-

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Re: HP annual report

[Van Dalsen, Herbie]

The interesting thing is that they manage to out-bid IBM, knowing that
it will cost them money on the short term, but in the long run, they
might persuade their customers to move across to "more affordable"
platforms that have "more readily available" resources.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Gillis
Sent: 07 February 2006 11:11
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: HP annual report

Timothy Sipples wrote:
> I'd also be interested to know why HP recently *entered* the mainframe

> outsourcing business. My best guess is that HP identified an
opportunity. 
> Better not tell the CEO. :-)
> 

They've been at it here in Oz for a while, not many clients though.

Paul Gillis

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Re: HP annual report

[Paul Gillis]

Timothy Sipples wrote:
I'd also be interested to know why HP recently *entered* the mainframe 
outsourcing business. My best guess is that HP identified an opportunity. 
Better not tell the CEO. :-)




They've been at it here in Oz for a while, not many clients though.

Paul Gillis

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Re: HP annual report (was: Mainframe Programmer on EBay)

[Timothy Sipples]

>He may as well try for the big bucks while he can, as it looks like he 
won't 
>be needed soon. The CEO and President of Hewlett-Packard made the 
following 
>comment in the opening statement of this years annual report:
>"The best way to steer a company toward growth is to look out four or 
five 
>years at the big market trends evolving, and then work backward to 
identify 
>opportunities...   There will be continued movement toward a lower cost, 
>industry-standard, distributed computing environment and a shift away 
from 
>mainframe computing".
>Does this mean HP is going to stop making mainframes?;-)

"Continued movement"? Didn't IBM just announce its best mainframe revenue 
quarter since 1998 (the year of great Y2K preparation)? (Mainframes cost 
less than they did in 1998, by the way.) When is this movement going to 
start?

Darn that pesky IBM, investing billions year after year to 
deliver the industry's premier business servers year after year. Haven't 
they heard that what customers really want are systems that require little 
or no R&D expense?

I'd also be interested to know why HP recently *entered* the mainframe 
outsourcing business. My best guess is that HP identified an opportunity. 
Better not tell the CEO. :-)

And yet another reminder: I do not speak for IBM. Especially about HP, 
which is a fine company, truly. I appreciate the great service I get from 
my "legacy" Hewlett-Packard LaserJet 4L printer, although I confess I 
don't buy cartridges from HP.

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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HP annual report (was: Mainframe Programmer on EBay)

[Dave Salt]

> Rare Mainframe programmer in near mint condition!!!
> A rare find in the IT world!


He may as well try for the big bucks while he can, as it looks like he won't 
be needed soon. The CEO and President of Hewlett-Packard made the following 
comment in the opening statement of this years annual report:


"The best way to steer a company toward growth is to look out four or five 
years at the big market trends evolving, and then work backward to identify 
opportunities...   There will be continued movement toward a lower cost, 
industry-standard, distributed computing environment and a shift away from 
mainframe computing".


Does this mean HP is going to stop making mainframes?;-)

Dave Salt
SimpList(tm) - The easiest, most powerful way to surf a mainframe!
http://www.mackinney.com/products/SIM/simplist.htm

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