Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread McKown, John 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of B Sysprog
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 10:00 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
> 
> 
> Hello -
> 
> I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an 
> old,old version
> of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this 
> is not an 
> April fool joke)
> 
> Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old 
> release, I seem 
> to recall that
> nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries.
> 
> Anybody have any positive comments on this?
> Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of 
> VM on zSeries?
> 
> I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the 
> archives from 1995 and 
> 2000,
> but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.
> 
> Thank you,
> BK Kosmach
> 412 433 1639

Impossible. The zSeries does not implement the old I/O instructions (SIO
et al.) that are used by MVS/SP. z/VM cannot be used because it does not
implement emulation for these instructions either. 

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John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Jay Maynard 
On Mon, Apr 03, 2006 at 10:03:23AM -0500, McKown, John wrote:
> > I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
> > version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is
> > not an April fool joke)
> Impossible. The zSeries does not implement the old I/O instructions (SIO
> et al.) that are used by MVS/SP. z/VM cannot be used because it does not
> implement emulation for these instructions either. 

The version the original poster is asking about isn't old enough to use the
370 I/O instructions. MVS/SP 3.2 was the formal name for an early release of
MVS/ESA.

I don't know if he'll be successful in running that under z/VM in a machine
defined with MACHINE ESA, but that's probably the only way he'll be able to
do it on his z/890.

(Of course, if IBM had a sane licensing policy, he could run it on
Hercules...)
-- 
Jay Maynard, K5ZChttp://www.conmicro.cx
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com  http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org   (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Tom Schmidt 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:59:32 -0400, B Sysprog wrote:

>Hello -
>
>I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old version
>of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an
>April fool joke)
>
>Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old release, I seem
>to recall that nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries.
>
>Anybody have any positive comments on this?
>Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on zSeries?
>
>I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 1995
>and 2000, but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.
>
>Thank you,
>BK Kosmach
>412 433 1639


Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?  I don't believe it was (and I'm sure
it wasn't certified as such).

I'd expect you have licensing issues with IBM... can't help you there.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Gilbert Saint-Flour 
On Monday 03 April 2006 11:00, B Sysprog wrote:

> I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
> version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890).

I seem to recall DFP 3.2, but what is MVS/SP 3.2.2 ?  My recollection is 
that MVS/ESA jumped directly from 3.1.3 to 4.1 ??

-- 

 Gilbert Saint-Flour
 GSF Software
 http://gsf-soft.com/
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Mark Jacobs 
The first Y2k MVS was either 5.1 or 5.2.2 (1994-1995 time frame).

MVS/ESA 3.2 is from the late 80's

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service Inc.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Schmidt
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:59:32 -0400, B Sysprog wrote:

>Hello -
>
>I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
version
>of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an
>April fool joke)
>
>Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old release, I
seem
>to recall that nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries.
>
>Anybody have any positive comments on this?
>Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on
zSeries?
>
>I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from
1995
>and 2000, but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.
>
>Thank you,
>BK Kosmach
>412 433 1639


Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?  I don't believe it was (and I'm
sure
it wasn't certified as such).

I'd expect you have licensing issues with IBM... can't help you there.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread SArnett 
The original issuer requested whether the op sys would run on a z/890 
and not whether his system was y2K complient or whether he was running 
that version legally.  My assumption would be that since we are six 
years past y2K that he is not concerned with that and if he is presently 
running ESA on another box then he has the license.


Mark Jacobs wrote:


The first Y2k MVS was either 5.1 or 5.2.2 (1994-1995 time frame).

MVS/ESA 3.2 is from the late 80's

Mark Jacobs
Time Customer Service Inc.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Schmidt
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:28 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:59:32 -0400, B Sysprog wrote:
 



Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?  I don't believe it was (and I'm
sure
it wasn't certified as such).

I'd expect you have licensing issues with IBM... can't help you there.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI
 



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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Chase, John 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of SArnett
> 
> The original issuer requested whether the op sys would run on 
> a z/890 and not whether his system was y2K complient or 
> whether he was running that version legally.  My assumption 
> would be that since we are six years past y2K that he is not 
> concerned with that and if he is presently running ESA on 
> another box then he has the license.
> 
> Mark Jacobs wrote:
> 
> >The first Y2k MVS was either 5.1 or 5.2.2 (1994-1995 time frame).
> >
> >MVS/ESA 3.2 is from the late 80's

ISTR the **FIRST** ESA **hardware** announcement from IBM came on Sept.
5, 1990.  Seems unlikely there'd have been an ESA operating system in
use by a customer before then.

-jc-

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Mark Jacobs 
That may very well be right. My memory isn't as good as it was back
then.

Mark Jacobs

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chase, John
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of SArnett
> 
> The original issuer requested whether the op sys would run on 
> a z/890 and not whether his system was y2K complient or 
> whether he was running that version legally.  My assumption 
> would be that since we are six years past y2K that he is not 
> concerned with that and if he is presently running ESA on 
> another box then he has the license.
> 
> Mark Jacobs wrote:
> 
> >The first Y2k MVS was either 5.1 or 5.2.2 (1994-1995 time frame).
> >
> >MVS/ESA 3.2 is from the late 80's

ISTR the **FIRST** ESA **hardware** announcement from IBM came on Sept.
5, 1990.  Seems unlikely there'd have been an ESA operating system in
use by a customer before then.

-jc-

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Tom Schmidt 
Steve,

The answer to his question was no.  I expanded on some issues he could
expect to find - some sooner, some later.  He also ought to expect issues
with error recovery (although I'm on a system that IS currently supported
and we found a very new issue with error recovery just last week... but the
difference is that we CAN expect to see a fix sometime relatively soon).


Your post didn't enlighten the user's original request either, it merely
took my answers to task.  I didn't make assumptions on his Y2K concerns,
nor did I make the leap of faith that "he has the license".  If he is
running his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" system now (which I doubt) then he is trying to
mix old (presumably cheap) software with newer, less expensive hardware...
I would expect some fallout to come from that combination.


Maybe the O.P. will explain his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" designation better.  Is is
really MVS/ESA 3.1.3 + DFP 3.2, or is it something different?


On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:07:47 -0500, SArnett wrote:

>The original issuer requested whether the op sys would run on a z/890
>and not whether his system was y2K complient or whether he was running
>that version legally.  My assumption would be that since we are six
>years past y2K that he is not concerned with that and if he is presently
>running ESA on another box then he has the license.

>>-Original Message-
>>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Schmidt
>>Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:28 AM
>>To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
>>
>>Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?  I don't believe it was (and I'm
>>sure it wasn't certified as such).
>>
>>I'd expect you have licensing issues with IBM... can't help you there.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Ted MacNEIL 
>ISTR the **FIRST** ESA **hardware** announcement from IBM came on Sept.
5, 1990.  Seems unlikely there'd have been an ESA operating system in
use by a customer before then.

MVS/ESA 3.1.0e was available when I started at the Bank of Nova Scotia in 1989. 
Or, very shortly after that.
That was not the first release of ESA.

-
-teD

I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in!

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Tom Schmidt 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:19:05 -0500, Chase, John wrote:
>> Mark Jacobs wrote:
>>
>> >The first Y2k MVS was either 5.1 or 5.2.2 (1994-1995 time frame).
>> >
>> >MVS/ESA 3.2 is from the late 80's
>
>ISTR the **FIRST** ESA **hardware** announcement from IBM came on Sept.
>5, 1990.  Seems unlikely there'd have been an ESA operating system in
>use by a customer before then.

You seem to recall incorrectly then;  the MVS/ESA SP 3.1.0 software
availability announcement which supported the Enterprise Systems
Architecture/370 (ESA/370) came out on July 26, 1988 for availability on
July 29, 1988.  Mark's "the late 80's" fits for ESA/370 hardware.

September 5, 1990 was the announcement date for MVS/DFP 3.3.0.

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Tom Schmidt 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:59:32 -0400, B Sysprog wrote:

>I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old version
>of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an
>April fool joke)
>
>Anybody have any positive comments on this?
>Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on zSeries?
>
>I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 1995
>and 2000, but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.


"MVS/SP 3.2.2" didn't have HCD support so you will need to come up with
some other way of getting your I/O and your I/O gen to match.  You won't
have any FICON support and you won't have ESS support... but presumably you
have some crusty, rusty disks you can attach (via parallel channels
maybe)?

Because of that reason (and some others) I would not expect you would be
able to run MVS/SP native under a z890 box.  But...

You might be able to IPL MVS/SP under a second-level VM/ESA or VM/XA
system, which was itself under a more current z/VM system.  The first level
z/VM would give you the current hardware support that you'll need.  (MVS/SP
as a third-level guest might work for you, for some value of 'work'.)  You
won't be able to connect to any 3390 models larger than a mod 3 but your VM
(s) can emulate a lot of little disks, I suppose.

Your next trick will be to access the tape data that (presumably) you are
resurrecting this software for... good luck with that!

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Chase, John 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ted MacNEIL
> 
> >ISTR the **FIRST** ESA **hardware** announcement from IBM 
> came on Sept.
> 5, 1990.  Seems unlikely there'd have been an ESA operating 
> system in use by a customer before then.
> 
> MVS/ESA 3.1.0e was available when I started at the Bank of 
> Nova Scotia in 1989. Or, very shortly after that.
> That was not the first release of ESA.

YASM[*].  It was the S/390 hardware that was announced on Sept 5, 1990.
I now recall having heard of ESA/370 before then, and it might have run
on [some of] the 3090s.

-jc-

[*] Yet Another Senior Moment

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Roach, Dennis 
Dennis Roach
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600 Gemini Avenue
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the beginning of time.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tom Schmidt
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:07 PM

On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:59:32 -0400, B Sysprog wrote:

>I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old version
>of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an
>April fool joke)
>
>Anybody have any positive comments on this?
>Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on zSeries?
>
>I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 1995
>and 2000, but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.


"MVS/SP 3.2.2" didn't have HCD support so you will need to come up with
some other way of getting your I/O and your I/O gen to match.  You won't
have any FICON support and you won't have ESS support... but presumably you
have some crusty, rusty disks you can attach (via parallel channels
maybe)?

No parallel on z890. z900 was the last.

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Ted MacNEIL 
>I now recall having heard of ESA/370 before then, and it might have run
on [some of] the 3090s.

I had it on 2E's, an S, and 2J's.

-
-teD

I’m an enthusiastic proselytiser of the universal panacea I believe in!

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread John S. Giltner, Jr. 
IIRC a z890 will only run a OS in 64-bit mode, no 31-bit mode, in an 
LPAR.  It may be possible to run a non-64-bit OS under z/VM.




B Sysprog wrote:

Hello -

I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old version
of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not an 
April fool joke)


Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old release, I 
seem to recall that

nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries.

Anybody have any positive comments on this?
Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on zSeries?

I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 1995 
and 2000,

but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.

Thank you,
BK Kosmach
412 433 1639



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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries?

2006-04-03 Thread Ed Gould 
Sorry this reply went to Gilbert rather than the list its a resend  
with a change to the TO:

Will Gilbert please correct his email client?
Ed
-


On Apr 3, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Gilbert Saint-Flour wrote:



On Monday 03 April 2006 11:00, B Sysprog wrote:



I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890).



I seem to recall DFP 3.2, but what is MVS/SP 3.2.2 ?  My  
recollection is

that MVS/ESA jumped directly from 3.1.3 to 4.1 ??

--



Gilbert,

IIRC (questionable) but I think 3.1.3 offered SMS (1st version) and  
this was incorporated in 3.2.


Ed

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread SArnett 
That will be news to those that run OS/390 2.10 on the z/890 and those 
of us that ran z/OS 1.4 and 1.5 in ARCHLVL 1 on the z/890...


John S. Giltner, Jr. wrote:

IIRC a z890 will only run a OS in 64-bit mode, no 31-bit mode, in an 
LPAR.  It may be possible to run a non-64-bit OS under z/VM.





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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-03 Thread Jim Mulder 
IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on 04/03/2006 
10:02:11 PM:

> IIRC a z890 will only run a OS in 64-bit mode, no 31-bit mode, in an 
> LPAR.  It may be possible to run a non-64-bit OS under z/VM.
> 
> 
> 
> B Sysprog wrote:
> > Hello -
> > 
> > I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old 
version
> > of MVS/SP and DFP  (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890). (this is not 
an 
> > April fool joke)
> > 
> > Putting aside the issue of lack of support for such an old release, I 
> > seem to recall that
> > nothing older than OS/390 R10 will run on zSeries.
> > 
> > Anybody have any positive comments on this?
> > Is there a way to run MVS/SP under some supported version of VM on 
zSeries?
> > 
> > I have found a few hits on old releases of MVS in the archives from 
1995 
> > and 2000,
> > but nothing specifically addressing this scenario.

  A z890 is quite capable of running ESA/390 mode LPARs.  In fact,
every IPL starts out in ESA/390 mode, and then the operating system does
a SIGP SARCH into z/Architecture mode if desired.

  z890, z990, and z9 machines have a 2-level TLB.  Nothing 
lower than OS/390 2.10 will run reliably on a machine with a 2-level
TLB because lower releases than 2.10 do not do some of the necessary 
TLB purges.  I have heard some speculation that you might be able to 
get around this by running an older MVS under VM, with the following
VM trace:

#CP TRACE IPTE RUN NOTERM 
 
 Of course, this would cause some performance degradation, since VM would
intercepting and simulating every IPTE for this virtual machine.  I don't 
know of anyone who has tried this.  It was just some hall talk with 
a VM developer.

 There may be other issues that would prevent an older MVS from running
on a modern machine, such as missing support for a larger storage 
increment
size.  The storage increment size might also be avoided under VM if the
virtual machine does not have too much real storage defined - I think
VM simulates the increment size but I wouldn't swear to that.

  And there may be other issues that I am not remembering.  The bottom
line is that you won't find anyone who knows for sure.  The only way
you could find out is to try it.

  And as others have pointed out, if by "old, old" you mean
pre-MVS/XA, you can most definitely forget that.  Support for
pre-XA architecture was dropped by the 9672 G4 machines
(9672-Rx5). 
 

Jim Mulder   z/OS System Test   IBM Corp.  Poughkeepsie,  NY

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Dave Cartwright 
On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 10:07:53 -0500, Jay Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>
>(Of course, if IBM had a sane licensing policy, he could run it on
>Hercules...)

IANAL but I would have thought that he could run it under Hercules under
zLinux on a z890. That solves all the problems, architectural and Y2K
raised by various contributors and even Jim Mulder could not say yeah or
nay that it would run on VM. I don't think many will argue that it WILL run
under Hercules.
(MVS on an IFL?)

Dave

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread B Sysprog 
Thanks to all the responders so far. I am afraid I was given no information 
other than "MVS/SP 3.2.2" and "DFP 3.2". These products are licensed (and 
running on some old  IBM hardware, which has yet to be identified) by a 
non-US company that we acquired. Migration is the goal; how we accomplish 
that is under investigation. My initial thoughts are that the applications 
need to be moved, rather than the entire MVS image.


Best,
BK Kosmach
412 433 1639



From: Tom Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:24:40 -0500

Steve,

The answer to his question was no.  I expanded on some issues he could
expect to find - some sooner, some later.  He also ought to expect issues
with error recovery (although I'm on a system that IS currently supported
and we found a very new issue with error recovery just last week... but the
difference is that we CAN expect to see a fix sometime relatively soon).


Your post didn't enlighten the user's original request either, it merely
took my answers to task.  I didn't make assumptions on his Y2K concerns,
nor did I make the leap of faith that "he has the license".  If he is
running his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" system now (which I doubt) then he is trying to
mix old (presumably cheap) software with newer, less expensive hardware...
I would expect some fallout to come from that combination.


Maybe the O.P. will explain his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" designation better.  Is is
really MVS/ESA 3.1.3 + DFP 3.2, or is it something different?


On Mon, 3 Apr 2006 12:07:47 -0500, SArnett wrote:

>The original issuer requested whether the op sys would run on a z/890
>and not whether his system was y2K complient or whether he was running
>that version legally.  My assumption would be that since we are six
>years past y2K that he is not concerned with that and if he is presently
>running ESA on another box then he has the license.

>>-Original Message-
>>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom Schmidt
>>Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 11:28 AM
>>To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
>>
>>Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?  I don't believe it was (and I'm
>>sure it wasn't certified as such).
>>
>>I'd expect you have licensing issues with IBM... can't help you there.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Jay Maynard 
On Tue, Apr 04, 2006 at 08:57:05AM -0400, B Sysprog wrote:
> My initial thoughts are that the applications need to be moved, rather
> than the entire MVS image.

Yes, you're dealing with an application migration. You won't be able to run
the image directly on your z890, and while you may be able to kludge your
way into running it with some combination of VMs and/or Linux and Hercules
(FWIW, I believe that running MVS under Hercules under z/Linux would be
legal, if slow), you'd have an easier time of it just going ahead with the
application migration you're going to eventually need to do anyway.
-- 
Jay Maynard, K5ZChttp://www.conmicro.cx
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com  http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org   (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 04/03/2006
   at 10:28 AM, Tom Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?

I doubt it; I don't think that even MVS/ESA 4.3 was Y2K compliant.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread McKown, John 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 7:55 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
> 
> 
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, on 04/03/2006
>at 10:28 AM, Tom Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
> >Was that level of MVS Y2K compliant?
> 
> I doubt it; I don't think that even MVS/ESA 4.3 was Y2K compliant.
>  
> -- 
>  Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT

You're right. I remember forcing a sub-company who was on MVS/ESA 4.4 to
OS/390 2.10 simply by telling them that 4.4 was not Y2K compliant. And
that meant that DMS would likely scratch all of their datasets at
midnight Y2K. OK, so I lied on that point.

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
UICI Insurance Center
Information Technology

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Tony Harminc 
Jay Maynard wrote:

> Yes, you're dealing with an application migration. You won't 
> be able to run the image directly on your z890, and while you 
> may be able to kludge your way into running it with some 
> combination of VMs and/or Linux and Hercules (FWIW, I believe 
> that running MVS under Hercules under z/Linux would be legal, 
> if slow), you'd have an easier time of it just going ahead 
> with the application migration you're going to eventually 
> need to do anyway.

OTOH, if the situation is that they've acquired a company with a datacentre,
and they have to get everything out by time t, then they have the choice of
moving the datacentre as a whole (hardware+OS+apps), moving the OS+apps (as
originally asked about), or moving just the apps. The first of these is
obviously a poor bet, particularly if the datacentre is geographically far
away. Moving the apps alone is clearly the Right Choice, but it may well
take more time than they have. In which case, moving the OS+apps may not be
so hopeless, particularly if they can get a transitional licence of some
sort to allow running on an old or otherwise unsupported processor. How big
is the workload? Maybe a P390 or Integrated Server would be the right box.

But this is all just speculation...

Tony H.

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Steve Arnett 

Tom,

I was not picking on you.  I was trying to get the thread back on 
track.  I was curious about the correct answer to the question and did 
not feel that the thread was going anywhere.  After my post(not because 
of it, mind you), I saw some superb posts that laid all of the 
difficulties out, including some useful alternatives.  I apologize if I 
offended you in any way.


Steve A.

Tom Schmidt wrote:


Steve,

The answer to his question was no.  I expanded on some issues he could
expect to find - some sooner, some later.  He also ought to expect issues
with error recovery (although I'm on a system that IS currently supported
and we found a very new issue with error recovery just last week... but the
difference is that we CAN expect to see a fix sometime relatively soon).


Your post didn't enlighten the user's original request either, it merely
took my answers to task.  I didn't make assumptions on his Y2K concerns,
nor did I make the leap of faith that "he has the license".  If he is
running his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" system now (which I doubt) then he is trying to
mix old (presumably cheap) software with newer, less expensive hardware...
I would expect some fallout to come from that combination.


Maybe the O.P. will explain his "MVS/SP 3.2.2" designation better.  Is is
really MVS/ESA 3.1.3 + DFP 3.2, or is it something different?
 

 



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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Tom Schmidt 
Steve,

My skin is thicker than that -- no apology necessary, but thanks for the
offer.  I agree that off-track threads are a notorious problem on ibm-
main.

My mind was wandering around the problem (maybe I shouldn't have posted so
early) because the issue was so off the wall.

I'm wondering if they might be better off getting a used 9672 G4 or G5 from
a junkyard somewhere to bring up a copy of MVS/SP v3 + DFP 3.2 before they
do a "drag & drop" move of the data center?  They can't run that level of
MVS on sufficiently new hardware to merge it into their existing data
center (I hope) but they could run it on rusty old hardware for a few
months (or longer) while they study it in motion (and remove the emotion in
the process).  I wouldn't want a business to depend on such old software -
it is far less reliable than z/OS (in spite of some recent postings here)
and I'd expect zero maintenance from the vendors beyond old tapes.

--
Tom Schmidt
Madison, WI


On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 09:50:44 -0500, Steve Arnett wrote:

>Tom,
> I was not picking on you.  I was trying to get the thread back on
>track.  I was curious about the correct answer to the question and did
>not feel that the thread was going anywhere.  After my post(not because
>of it, mind you), I saw some superb posts that laid all of the
>difficulties out, including some useful alternatives.  I apologize if I
>offended you in any way.
>
>Steve A.
>
>Tom Schmidt wrote:
>
>>Steve,
>>
>>The answer to his question was no.  I expanded on some issues he could
>>expect to find - some sooner, some later.
...

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Gilbert Saint-Flour 
On Monday 03 April 2006 11:00, B Sysprog wrote:

> I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
> version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890).

Perhaps is ISX/390 a possible solution for you?  ISX/390 allows you to 
run an old O/S as a virtual guest in an MVS address space (like VM, but 
sans VM).  The U.S. company that was distributing it no longer seems to 
exist, but you may be able to contact the developers in Russia.  

If you're interested, these links will get you started: 
http://xweb.share.org/proceedings/sh95/data/S5511A.PDF 
http://web.archive.org/web/20030209235643/http://www.iissolutions.com/mainnav.html

Note: I have no connection with the ISX/390 people, but their product 
appeals to me.  

-- 

 Gilbert Saint-Flour
 GSF Software
 http://gsf-soft.com/
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Ed Gould 

On Apr 4, 2006, at 7:57 AM, B Sysprog wrote:

Thanks to all the responders so far. I am afraid I was given no  
information other than "MVS/SP 3.2.2" and "DFP 3.2". These products  
are licensed (and running on some old  IBM hardware, which has yet  
to be identified) by a non-US company that we acquired. Migration  
is the goal; how we accomplish that is under investigation. My  
initial thoughts are that the applications need to be moved, rather  
than the entire MVS image.


Best,
BK Kosmach
412 433 1639

-SNIP--


That is entirely a different matter.

It really depends on a lot of things like what version of cobol they  
were running. It might be just a recompile (if you are lucky) with  
minimal changes.


If its assembler there are too many unknowns (for my taste) and at  
least a scan of the source with an eye towards an OS dependency.
If there are other languages its up for grabs, IMO. There might be a  
whole re-write or just a lot of code to go through, its really  
difficult to say.


You might luck out and vary little might be needed for update, its  
really hard to tell and only a person with a precticed eye can tell  
you for sure where the trouble spots will be.


Ed

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread McKown, John 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Gould
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:52 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???
> 



> 
> That is entirely a different matter.
> 
> It really depends on a lot of things like what version of cobol they  
> were running. It might be just a recompile (if you are lucky) with  
> minimal changes.
> 
> If its assembler there are too many unknowns (for my taste) and at  
> least a scan of the source with an eye towards an OS dependency.
> If there are other languages its up for grabs, IMO. There might be a  
> whole re-write or just a lot of code to go through, its really  
> difficult to say.
> 
> You might luck out and vary little might be needed for update, its  
> really hard to tell and only a person with a precticed eye can tell  
> you for sure where the trouble spots will be.
> 
> Ed

Yeah. I hope like the blazes that they don't have IMS. We had a sister
company with IMS/DB that they used in CICS. Getting them up to date on
IMS so that they could get up to date on CICS and z/OS was a terrible
trial. I still have nightmares!

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
UICI Insurance Center
Information Technology

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Timothy Sipples 
>IIRC a z890 will only run a OS in 64-bit mode, no 31-bit mode, in an 
>LPAR.  It may be possible to run a non-64-bit OS under z/VM.

Actually that's not the issue. There are lots of currently supported 
31-bit operating systems that'll run just fine on a z890 including 
VSE/ESA, z/VSE, TPF/ESA, Linux (ESA flavor), and z/OS Bimodal. It's much 
the same situation for a System z9-109, too.

Running this older MVS 3.2.2 (?) version inside an older version of VM 
inside z/VM could work, but obviously two of those three operating systems 
will be unsupported. There are some customers doing this (although I'm not 
sure about this specific MVS version). The one I know about directly has 
migration work underway to get onto a supported z/OS release.

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Ed Gould 

On Apr 4, 2006, at 3:55 PM, McKown, John wrote:

SNIP---
Yeah. I hope like the blazes that they don't have IMS. We had a sister
company with IMS/DB that they used in CICS. Getting them up to date on
IMS so that they could get up to date on CICS and z/OS was a terrible
trial. I still have nightmares!

--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
UICI Insurance Center
Information Technology



John,

Good point there are rough spots other than just plain batch, which  
is what why I limited it to batch.
There are things like CICS assembler coding and IMS (to name a few)  
that present challenges that a short reply like mine cannot really  
get to the point. That is one of the reasons why (I think i alluded  
to) a professional thats BTDT.


Ed

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-04 Thread Timothy Sipples 
BK, just out of curiosity, in what country is the company you've acquired 
located?

- - - - -
Timothy F. Sipples
Consulting Enterprise Software Architect, z9/zSeries
IBM Japan, Ltd.
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries???

2006-04-05 Thread Jim Marshall 
I believe another question to ask is what are the applications running on
this system. I worked on a Realtime Tracking system using MVT and then MVS
where they had used many of the IBM "spare" control block fields for
things. In that case it was ugly to upgrade. If the applications are just
everyday code, then there is a possibility for upward compatibility. It
can't be too custom if they are accepting a date back in 1990's and
probably postprocessing everything to get it current.

Sounds like an interesting challenge.

Jim Marshall

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries?

2006-04-10 Thread Edward E. Jaffe 

Ed Gould wrote:

On Apr 3, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Gilbert Saint-Flour wrote:



On Monday 03 April 2006 11:00, B Sysprog wrote:



I have been asked to identify if it is possible to run an old,old
version of MVS/SP and DFP (3.2) on a zSeries processor (z890).



I seem to recall DFP 3.2, but what is MVS/SP 3.2.2 ?  My recollection is
that MVS/ESA jumped directly from 3.1.3 to 4.1 ??


That is my recollection as well.


Gilbert,

IIRC (questionable) but I think 3.1.3 offered SMS (1st version) and 
this was incorporated in 3.2.


No. SP 3.1.2 offered SMS. SP 3.1.3 implemented the new RACF 1.9 security 
stuff (JESSPOOL, OPERCMDS, etc).


--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries?

2006-04-10 Thread Ed Gould 

On Apr 10, 2006, at 6:24 AM, Edward E. Jaffe wrote:

--SNIP---



Gilbert,

IIRC (questionable) but I think 3.1.3 offered SMS (1st version)  
and this was incorporated in 3.2.


No. SP 3.1.2 offered SMS. SP 3.1.3 implemented the new RACF 1.9  
security stuff (JESSPOOL, OPERCMDS, etc).




IIRC there was an extra cost for DFP for 3.2 and that, IIRC was for  
SMS support. I had to fight the bean counters on the $25 a month (I  
thinks thats the number). In any case this was about 10 years ago and  
its not worth arguing about.  SOme of us had to fight for every penny.


Ed

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Re: Support for MVS/SP 3.2.2 on zSeries?

2006-04-10 Thread Steve Arnett 
Yea and some of us didn't have the CS (or ES) to run SMS anyway!  Though 
I did use IGDZILLA to pack LPA so that it overflowed to COMMON with 
nothing "usable" in PLPA.


Ed Gould wrote:



IIRC there was an extra cost for DFP for 3.2 and that, IIRC was for  
SMS support. I had to fight the bean counters on the $25 a month (I  
thinks thats the number). In any case this was about 10 years ago and  
its not worth arguing about.  SOme of us had to fight for every penny.


Ed



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