Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Colin Paice]

I think it is horses for courses.  Someone once said to me something along
the lines of ..

If you run it once a day write it in rexx (or Python)
If you run it once an hour - write it in Java
If you run it once a second write it in C
If you run it 1000 times a second - write it in Assembler.

It is not just a matter of performance - how much of your time do you want
to invest in writing the program.  The more time you spend - the better it
should be.
If it is good enough - is that OK ?
Colin

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 at 04:25, David Crayford  wrote:

> After struggling with NetRexx, I've found that it could benefit from
> being as user-friendly as Kotlin or Groovy if the maintainers want to
> attract more users. On my machine, NetRexx is slower than Python but
> still respectable.
>
> However, both Python and NetRexx are outperformed by highly optimized
> Java solutions. Go is also impressive and available on z/OS using the
> IBM SDK.
>
> It's important to note that NetRexx is not ooRexx, and the discussion
> was focused on the poor performance of ooRexx. While some may choose to
> bridge NetRexx with Java, I personally find it more convenient to use
> Kotlin or Groovy instead.
>
>
> ❯ python3 PrimePy.py
> Passes: 6699, Time: 5.000532913953066, Avg: 0.0007464596079941881,
> Limit: 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
> emillynge_numpy; 6699;5.000532913953066;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8
>
> ❯ java -cp ~/NetRexx-4.04-GA/lib/NetRexxF.jar:. PrimeNetRexx
> joss_NetRexx;5743;5.000354;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes
>
> Optimized Java
>
> ❯ ./runSolution.sh
> chrvanorleI32;6197;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI32;19191;5.003000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI32C;7511;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI32C;21451;5.003000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI64;5957;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI64;18471;5.015000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI64C;7161;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI64C;21167;5.006000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
>
> chrvanorleI64PatternCalc;9308;5.00;1;algorithm=other,faithful=yes,bits=1
>
> chrvanorleI64PatternCalc;29123;5.004000;4;algorithm=other,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI8;4946;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI8;14963;5.016000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI32CUnroll;7927;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
> chrvanorleI32CUnroll;25650;5.006000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
>
> chrvanorleStrided32Blocks16k;12069;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
>
> chrvanorleStrided32Blocks16k;37190;5.009000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
>
> ❯ go run .
> Run for 5.0 seconds using 12 workers to builing a sieve up to 100...
> Passes: 19506, Time: 5000 ms, Avg: 256336 ns/op, Limit: 100, Count1:
> 78498, Count2: 78498, Valid: true
> kpym-go-multi;19506;5.96;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes
>
>
> On 2/3/23 00:54, René Jansen wrote:
> > so this should work for you:
> >
> > ➜  test git:(master) ✗ cat hello.nrx
> > import java.lang.String
> >
> > say 'hello java' System.getProperty("java.version")
> >
> > loop i=long 0 to 10
> >   hello(i)
> > end
> >
> > loop i=long 0 to 10
> >   hello(java.lang.String(i))
> > end
> >
> > method hello(j)
> >say "hello" j
> >
> >method hello(j=long)
> >  say "hello long" j
> >
> >method hello(j=java.lang.String)
> >  say "hello String" j
> > ➜  test git:(master) ✗ unset CLASSPATH
> > ➜  test git:(master) ✗ echo $CLASSPATH
> >
> > ➜  test git:(master) ✗ java -jar NetRexxC.jar hello
> > NetRexx portable processor 4.05-beta build 374-20230213-1052
> > Copyright (c) RexxLA, 2011,2023.   All rights reserved.
> > Parts Copyright (c) IBM Corporation, 1995,2008.
> > Program hello.nrx
> >  constructor hello(Rexx)
> >  constructor hello(long)
> >  constructor hello(String)
> > Compilation of 'hello.nrx' successful
> > ➜  test git:(master) ✗
> >
> > I have a global CLASSPATH, and only for specific projects I have a -cp
> on the command line for Make or Ninja, to have control over versions and
> libraries.
> > A global classpath enables me to check if all code is still compatible
> with the combination of releases from different libraries I use.
> > But as you see it is not really needed. We are not mandating anything,
> and if you want to run from a jar, that is fine.
> >
> > best regards,
> >
> > René.
> >
> >> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:
> >>> Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.
> >> Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene
> >>
> >>
>  On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
>  Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?
> >>> --
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Z15 EOM

[Tommy Tsui]

Hi all

Anyone know when ibm will issue the withdrawal letter for z15. Anyone
planning to upgrade z17?  It seems a bit late due to COVID-19?

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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Ed Jaffe]

On 3/1/2023 4:01 PM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

Am 01.03.2023 um 19:51 schrieb Martin Trübner:


I know of one big z/OS installation that has a debugger in use that 
uses TRAP (and the author is on IBM-main as well)


That's me ... but as I said in the other mail, I am not the author of 
the debugger;
I am only the maintainer today, and I changed the breakpoint mechanism 
(was: S0C1) by TRAP in the 2010 time frame.


He might have been referring to z/XDC. ColeSoft acquired zDebug many 
years ago, which used TRAP exclusively, and incorporated much of that 
technology into z/XDC.


IIRC, you must use the 0C1/ESTAEX method only once at initial entry. 
After that, you can switch over to TRAP (which is advantageous)...



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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

After struggling with NetRexx, I've found that it could benefit from 
being as user-friendly as Kotlin or Groovy if the maintainers want to 
attract more users. On my machine, NetRexx is slower than Python but 
still respectable.


However, both Python and NetRexx are outperformed by highly optimized 
Java solutions. Go is also impressive and available on z/OS using the 
IBM SDK.


It's important to note that NetRexx is not ooRexx, and the discussion 
was focused on the poor performance of ooRexx. While some may choose to 
bridge NetRexx with Java, I personally find it more convenient to use 
Kotlin or Groovy instead.



❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6699, Time: 5.000532913953066, Avg: 0.0007464596079941881, 
Limit: 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True

emillynge_numpy; 6699;5.000532913953066;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

❯ java -cp ~/NetRexx-4.04-GA/lib/NetRexxF.jar:. PrimeNetRexx
joss_NetRexx;5743;5.000354;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes

Optimized Java

❯ ./runSolution.sh
chrvanorleI32;6197;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI32;19191;5.003000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI32C;7511;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI32C;21451;5.003000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64;5957;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64;18471;5.015000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64C;7161;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64C;21167;5.006000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64PatternCalc;9308;5.00;1;algorithm=other,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI64PatternCalc;29123;5.004000;4;algorithm=other,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI8;4946;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI8;14963;5.016000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI32CUnroll;7927;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleI32CUnroll;25650;5.006000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleStrided32Blocks16k;12069;5.00;1;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1
chrvanorleStrided32Blocks16k;37190;5.009000;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes,bits=1

❯ go run .
Run for 5.0 seconds using 12 workers to builing a sieve up to 100...
Passes: 19506, Time: 5000 ms, Avg: 256336 ns/op, Limit: 100, Count1: 
78498, Count2: 78498, Valid: true

kpym-go-multi;19506;5.96;4;algorithm=base,faithful=yes


On 2/3/23 00:54, René Jansen wrote:

so this should work for you:

➜  test git:(master) ✗ cat hello.nrx
import java.lang.String

say 'hello java' System.getProperty("java.version")

loop i=long 0 to 10
hello(i)
end

loop i=long 0 to 10
hello(java.lang.String(i))
end

method hello(j)
   say "hello" j

   method hello(j=long)
 say "hello long" j

   method hello(j=java.lang.String)
 say "hello String" j
➜  test git:(master) ✗ unset CLASSPATH
➜  test git:(master) ✗ echo $CLASSPATH

➜  test git:(master) ✗ java -jar NetRexxC.jar hello
NetRexx portable processor 4.05-beta build 374-20230213-1052
Copyright (c) RexxLA, 2011,2023.   All rights reserved.
Parts Copyright (c) IBM Corporation, 1995,2008.
Program hello.nrx
 constructor hello(Rexx)
 constructor hello(long)
 constructor hello(String)
Compilation of 'hello.nrx' successful
➜  test git:(master) ✗

I have a global CLASSPATH, and only for specific projects I have a -cp on the 
command line for Make or Ninja, to have control over versions and libraries.
A global classpath enables me to check if all code is still compatible with the 
combination of releases from different libraries I use.
But as you see it is not really needed. We are not mandating anything, and if 
you want to run from a jar, that is fine.

best regards,

René.


On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:

On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.

Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene



On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:

Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?

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Re: Hardware instrumentation presentation

[P H]

Even better,  try John Burg of the 'Washington Systems Center '. He used to 
have presentations on the TechDoc website and also presented at SHARE.

Sent from Outlook for Android

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw <032fff1be9b4-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2023 1:10:47 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: Hardware instrumentation presentation

I recommend you speak to Martin Packer at IBM.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Colin Paice
Sent: 01 March 2023 18:00
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Hardware instrumentation presentation

I've been asked to give a talk on performance to a University Computing 
department.

I know the z hardware has in builtin instrumentation which allows you to see 
where the delays were for a particular instruction.  For example this load 
instruction got data from the L3 cache and it took x nano seconds.

Is there a presentation on this?

I remember seeing a presentation (it may have been IBM confidential) showing 
that a Load could be slow, if the data was in a the cache in a book
3 ft away, compared to it being in the cache on the chip.
Also the second time round a loop is faster than the first time because the 
instructions are in the instruction cache.

This was all mind blowing stuff!

Colin

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Re: DATASET encryption POC

[Phil Smith III]

Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw kindly wrote:

>I think you have switched forums Phil.

>This stream started on RACF-L

 

Right you are! Sorry about that. Thanks.


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Re: DATASET encryption POC

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I think you have switched forums Phil.
This stream started on RACF-L
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Phil Smith III
Sent: 01 March 2023 21:48
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: DATASET encryption POC

Eric D Rossman wrote, in part:
>Not really. Can you give me a reasonable use case where having the 
>encrypted data would be of ANY use to you? There is nothing to 
>compare/correlate. Since the data is (maybe compressed) and encrypted, 
>there is nothing to look at other than the length of a given record.

At a minimum, the ability to copy/compare data sets. If protection was at a
record level, it would be more useful. But I agree it'd be a fairly small
benefit here.

Again, though, that wasn't my full point: it'd be harmless at worst (and
provide the benefits I listed) at least; the problem, as I said, is that
it's been oversold as "Now you're protected from attacks" when you aren't.
That isn't your fault, it's a marketing/presentation thing.

>That is exactly the case we were trying to protect against: a 
>misconfigured system. Someone who has access to open the data set 
>should also have access to the key protecting it. If they do not, that 
>is a misconfiguration and one that we explicit explain how to avoid in 
>the red book.

OK, I guess.though I'd give the customer the option. And access is already
controlled by SAF; the point I was making is that in terms of access *on the
system*, the encryption doesn't provide any real protection against anything
except the two use cases I described. Put another way: in terms of access
*on the system* (and, again, besides storage admins) just adding a second
SAF profile to protect the data set - "This is an important data set, so you
need not only access to it implicitly as part of the DATASET class, but also
via a second profile in the VIP class" - the result would be the same.

>I disagree here as well. We're not merely trying to protect it from the 
>same things that SAF access protects it from. We are really protecting 
>it from the storage admins (i.e. on DASD as well as on the wire).
>Security is a layered approach.

Right, I said that. That's one of the two things it DOES provide protection
from. But that's not an attack vector people commonly worry about in my
experience.

>A.k.a. a layered approach. DASD encryption, data set encryption, and 
>format-preserving encryption are all pieces of the puzzle. Each 
>protects from a different attack vector. There are use cases where data 
>set encryption is the right solution and others where field-level FPE 
>is and others where both are good together.

I don't disagree-again, however, people are sold on "We encrypted something,
now we're protected!" and I think that's doing a disservice to the
customers. And cases where data set encryption alone provides real
protection seem to be pretty few and far between.

>Oh, by the way, ICSF provides FPE which fits beautifully into this.

ICSF provides Visa FPE, which is malleable and thus only usable if you use a
different key for each element. That's a very significant limitation that
makes Visa FPE not really very useful, since it breaks referential
integrity. FF1 is NIST-standard, not malleable, better. The doc I've seen
about FPE through ICSF also doesn't make this very clear, which concerns me:
it's too easy for people to miss it and wind up with protection that's
trivially breakable.

Just to reiterate: whole-data set encryption isn't a Bad Thing, it just sort
of becomes one when people get fooled into thinking it solves their
encryption needs, when it really does only a tiny part of that. That leaves
a bad taste in my mouth, so I'm probably overly negative about it as a
result: it's clearly at least somewhat useful as an adjunct.

Cheers,
...phsiii


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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Bernd Oppolzer]

Am 01.03.2023 um 19:51 schrieb Martin Trübner:


I know of one big z/OS installation that has a debugger in use that 
uses TRAP (and the author is on IBM-main as well)


That's me ... but as I said in the other mail, I am not the author of 
the debugger;
I am only the maintainer today, and I changed the breakpoint mechanism 
(was: S0C1) by TRAP in the 2010 time frame.


Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Bernd Oppolzer]

FWIW,

some years ago (maybe 2010), I replaced the breakpoint mechanism in a 
home grown debug tool
written by my customer; the breakpoints were implemented by capturing 
the S0C1 interrupts of hex zero
insertions into the load module instead of real opcodes. I now insert 
TRAP2 instead of hex zero.


So: I know how to do this ... maybe others on this list, too. The 
problem is: to insert the address of the
TRAP handler routine into the DUCT, you need to be authorized. In our 
installation, we created something
like a special "user SVC" to do this (don't know the details, because 
this was done by our systems people).
That is: a special SVC which only allows to "configure the DUCT". I 
wrote the specification, and then the

systems people created the SVC.

All other actions can be done by normal non-authorized code ... this is 
kind of easy. The rest of the debug tool
remained unchanged. The debug tool was much faster after this change, 
because the RTM work involved

by the S0C1 handling is now saved.

This is a very special application, of course, and I never would have 
thought about using TRAP2, if the
debug tool of the customer didn't exist already (since the 1980s, long 
before TRAP2 arrived, which was ca. 2000,
IIRC). But when I learned about the internals of the debug tool (the 
S0C1 mechanism), it seemed
sort of natural to me to think about this TRAP2 replacement. And the 
customer allowed me to give it a try.


If you want to know more, feel free to ask me offline; maybe I remember 
the details after all this time.
The debug tool is still in daily use by the developers at the customer's 
site (for PL/1 and ASSEMBLER programs).


Kind regards

Bernd



Am 01.03.2023 um 17:32 schrieb Farley, Peter:

<*Sigh*> Yes, I do understand the "business justification/resource allocation" 
argument/excuse.  I deal with similar issues all the time in my employer's business.  I hate 
it, but it is real.

IMHO the IBM z/OS development team should never have *needed* a "formal 
request/requirement" to implement OS support for an implemented architectural 
feature.  There is a new hardware feature, our clients will no doubt wish to take 
advantage of its benefits, let's support that feature.  Full stop.

But please accept my apologies, I am obviously beating that poor dead horse 
once again.

As an alternative, would it ever be possible for IBM to publish the program design and 
detailed error-handling needed to practically and *safely* use the TRAP feature?  Maybe a 
Redbook project sponsored by the Debug Tool team?  Something detailed enough to enable a 
knowledgeable independent developer to produce the code you say IBM won't ever write.  I 
wouldn't expect the major ISV's to undertake it, it is far too small a market for them to 
spend real money on (there is that dad-blasted "business justification" thing 
again), but an independent developer might wish to spend *their* private time on getting 
it done, IFF they had all the details needed to do it the right way without needing to 
guess what to do.

I would hope that publishing information on how to properly and safely use an 
existing (and already published) architectural feature wouldn't run afoul of IP 
concerns.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Peter Relson
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 9:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

EXTERNAL EMAIL

Peter F wrote:

What I would like to know is when z/OS development will finally manage to find 
the round tuits to actually implement a supported API to actually be able to 
USE the TRAP (and compare-and-trap) instructions introduced to the architecture 
so long ago I have forgotten which zArch generation they in came with (and I'm 
too tired to go looking for that generation today).


I believe IBM Debug Tool uses this. But you're right that there is no API 
provided.

And given the amount of time that has gone by and the fact that, to my knowledge, there 
never has been a formal request/requirement submitted asking for such an API, the answer 
to your question (unless such a requirement is submitted) is, in practice, 
"never".

And a new requirement might be declined unless there is significant business 
justification that would make this a good candidate.

We all wish that we were in a world where "should" would match "it is", but there is always a 
resource tradeoff to be made between competing items and the question has to be answered of what would you the customer 
(and IBM) be willing to sacrifice getting in order to get "this". "Should" only takes you so far. 
That should be apparent to all (but many discussions on IBM-Main do not seem to take that into account).

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design
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Hardware Collection

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

I'm looking for ancient documentation, like IBM Hardware Collection 
(Bookreader)

I also look for IOCP User Guide for z900. (note: z900, not z/Whatever).

Obviously I'm aware of bitsavers, so I'm looking for other material.

Any clue?


It has very little to do with my job. It is just a hobby. I like 
mainframes.  :-)


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

Seriously IBM was delivering AC922 or IC922 POWER servers.
POWER machines with NVIDIA GPUs for AI.
However they stopped.
Why?
Because they started delivering its own "AI chip", in z CP or POWER CP.

Is Intel cheaper? NO.
There are plenty of analyses where POWER is economically more effective 
than Xeon.

The same apply to z CP.

I'm not working for IBM (now) and I was never involved in sales. The 
above are just facts.
Of course we knowe sometimes a solution which means a competition is not 
the best. Sometimes it is selled the best.


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland




W dniu 01.03.2023 o 19:16, zMan pisze:

So a $xxx,xxx mainframe can double the output of a $1500 card? "Make it up
in volume"???

Seriously, this is the question I keep coming up against wrt z16 and AI:
Why would anyone use expensive Z MIPs to do AI stuff instead of cheap Intel
MIPS?

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 5:52 PM David Crayford  wrote:


On 1/3/23 06:37, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Telum isn't really an AI engine, but it has, e.g., vector capabilities

motivated by AI applications. I expect to see it used for more than AI.

Naturally, it's not an AI engine on its own; software is required for
that functionality. An ACM article [1] suggests that a 32-chip system
can achieve 200 tflops, which is roughly double the output of a $1500
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 graphics card with air cooling. In this context,
low latency is a critical factor.

[1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3470496.3533042




--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on

behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 5:30 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

There is a lot of AI related stuff in the announcement, including a new
SMF explorder that leverages Jupyter Notebooks. The z16 Telum chip has
integrated AI on die and a C library was published. Does anybody know if
this has been ported to Python numpy or tensorflow?

In z/OS 3.1, AI and analytics solutions such as the following plan to be
infused into the operating system using intelligent automation and
accelerated inferencing at scale to extract and leverage valuable data
insights:

* AI Framework support, intended to augment z/OS with intelligence
  that optimizes IT processes, simplifies management, improves
  performance, and reduces skill requirements
* The AI ecosystem, which z/OS 3.1 intends to extend by supporting a
  leading AI portfolio with the ability to deploy AI co-located with
  z/OS applications, designed for low latency response times
* AI-Powered WLM, designed to intelligently predict upcoming batch
  workload and react accordingly for optimized system resources
* IBM SMF Explorer, a data access and analysis toolkit designed to
  help even novice users access SMF data and extract insights in an
  easy and modern way, leveraging Python and Jupyter Notebooks


On 28/2/23 23:35, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:

This is the US Version of the announcement letter



https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fcommon%2Fssi%2FShowDoc.wss%3FdocURL%3D%2Fcommon%2Fssi%2Frep_ca%2F3%2F897%2FE&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=T29yGFYduLO1l5NnTX%2F3R8rp7PvyftOfwGRRxo8%2FTJI%3D&reserved=0

NUS223-013/index.html&lang=en&request_locale=en


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website:

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lbdsoftware.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2wcVQvDmJyMbVPtSX2kdfaeqT1adqj4WxavRksv6WZ4%3D&reserved=0

Github:

https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flbdyck&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6uG8%2FMdtffGt3Vf34ruiOF7gz%2FsrqULbblyj5tD6geg%3D&reserved=0

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is

what you

are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden




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Re: DATASET encryption POC

[Phil Smith III]

Eric D Rossman wrote, in part:
>Not really. Can you give me a reasonable use case where having the
>encrypted data would be of ANY use to you? There is nothing to
>compare/correlate. Since the data is (maybe compressed) and encrypted,
>there is nothing to look at other than the length of a given record.

At a minimum, the ability to copy/compare data sets. If protection was at a
record level, it would be more useful. But I agree it'd be a fairly small
benefit here.

Again, though, that wasn't my full point: it'd be harmless at worst (and
provide the benefits I listed) at least; the problem, as I said, is that
it's been oversold as "Now you're protected from attacks" when you aren't.
That isn't your fault, it's a marketing/presentation thing.

>That is exactly the case we were trying to protect against: a
>misconfigured system. Someone who has access to open the data set
>should also have access to the key protecting it. If they do not, that
>is a misconfiguration and one that we explicit explain how to avoid in
>the red book.

OK, I guess.though I'd give the customer the option. And access is already
controlled by SAF; the point I was making is that in terms of access *on the
system*, the encryption doesn't provide any real protection against anything
except the two use cases I described. Put another way: in terms of access
*on the system* (and, again, besides storage admins) just adding a second
SAF profile to protect the data set - "This is an important data set, so you
need not only access to it implicitly as part of the DATASET class, but also
via a second profile in the VIP class" - the result would be the same.

>I disagree here as well. We're not merely trying to protect it from the
>same things that SAF access protects it from. We are really protecting
>it from the storage admins (i.e. on DASD as well as on the wire).
>Security is a layered approach.

Right, I said that. That's one of the two things it DOES provide protection
from. But that's not an attack vector people commonly worry about in my
experience.

>A.k.a. a layered approach. DASD encryption, data set encryption, and
>format-preserving encryption are all pieces of the puzzle. Each
>protects from a different attack vector. There are use cases where data
>set encryption is the right solution and others where field-level FPE
>is and others where both are good together.

I don't disagree-again, however, people are sold on "We encrypted something,
now we're protected!" and I think that's doing a disservice to the
customers. And cases where data set encryption alone provides real
protection seem to be pretty few and far between.

>Oh, by the way, ICSF provides FPE which fits beautifully into this.

ICSF provides Visa FPE, which is malleable and thus only usable if you use a
different key for each element. That's a very significant limitation that
makes Visa FPE not really very useful, since it breaks referential
integrity. FF1 is NIST-standard, not malleable, better. The doc I've seen
about FPE through ICSF also doesn't make this very clear, which concerns me:
it's too easy for people to miss it and wind up with protection that's
trivially breakable.

Just to reiterate: whole-data set encryption isn't a Bad Thing, it just sort
of becomes one when people get fooled into thinking it solves their
encryption needs, when it really does only a tiny part of that. That leaves
a bad taste in my mouth, so I'm probably overly negative about it as a
result: it's clearly at least somewhat useful as an adjunct.

Cheers,
...phsiii


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Re: CS/CDS instruction

[Seymour J Metz]

In addition to the obvious instructions Phil mentioned, there is also PLO. I 
don't have any relevant performance data.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Ituriel do Neto [03427ec2837d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 3:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: CS/CDS instruction

Hi all,

Is there a similar instruction to CS or CDS, but using 64 bits register ?

I have a double word that contains a counter and using 64 bits instructions
would be faster to increment this value than manipulate it with other storage
areas and an even-odd pair of 32 bits registers.

Thanks in advance


Best Regards

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
z/OS System Programmer

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Re: CS/CDS instruction

[Phil Smith III]

Ituriel do Neto asked:
>Is there a similar instruction to CS or CDS, but using 64 bits register ?

 

CSG/CDSG. Look at Principles of Operation.


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Re: CS/CDS instruction

[Tom Harper]

CSG and CDSG in Pop. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 1, 2023, at 3:53 PM, Ituriel do Neto 
> <03427ec2837d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Is there a similar instruction to CS or CDS, but using 64 bits register ?
> 
> I have a double word that contains a counter and using 64 bits instructions
> would be faster to increment this value than manipulate it with other storage
> areas and an even-odd pair of 32 bits registers.
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
> z/OS System Programmer
> 
> --
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> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN



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CS/CDS instruction

[Ituriel do Neto]

Hi all,

Is there a similar instruction to CS or CDS, but using 64 bits register ?

I have a double word that contains a counter and using 64 bits instructions
would be faster to increment this value than manipulate it with other storage
areas and an even-odd pair of 32 bits registers.

Thanks in advance


Best Regards

Ituriel do Nascimento Neto
z/OS System Programmer

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Re: Hardware instrumentation presentation

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I recommend you speak to Martin Packer at IBM.
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Colin Paice
Sent: 01 March 2023 18:00
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Hardware instrumentation presentation

I've been asked to give a talk on performance to a University Computing 
department.

I know the z hardware has in builtin instrumentation which allows you to see 
where the delays were for a particular instruction.  For example this load 
instruction got data from the L3 cache and it took x nano seconds.

Is there a presentation on this?

I remember seeing a presentation (it may have been IBM confidential) showing 
that a Load could be slow, if the data was in a the cache in a book
3 ft away, compared to it being in the cache on the chip.
Also the second time round a loop is faster than the first time because the 
instructions are in the instruction cache.

This was all mind blowing stuff!

Colin

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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Phil Smith III]

Traditionally, the business case would have been that a debugging facility
like this led to increased ability to exploit the platform, thus leading to
more usage and more sales. Whether that still applies-whether IBM is
interested in that for IBM zSystems-is unclear. With cloud, cloud, and more
cloud, maybe not so much?


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Re: SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER server IP address changes

[Dana Mitchell]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 13:09:58 -0600, Paul Gilmartin  wrote:

>On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:24:54 +, Kurt J. Quackenbush wrote:
>
>>SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER users, take note of the planned IBM order server IP 
>>address changes on March 23.
>>https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/node/6856445
>>
>Why should users be concerned with the IP address rather than relying on the
>domain name, which will remain valid?
>

Our firewall rules are based on the IP address not host name.  Those will have 
to be updated accordingly.

Dana

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Re: SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER server IP address changes

[Mike Schwab]

Sometimes there are hiccups in the transition due to DNS caching.

On Wed, Mar 1, 2023 at 1:10 PM Paul Gilmartin
<042bfe9c879d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:24:54 +, Kurt J. Quackenbush wrote:
>
> >SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER users, take note of the planned IBM order server IP 
> >address changes on March 23.
> >https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/node/6856445
> >
> Why should users be concerned with the IP address rather than relying on the
> domain name, which will remain valid?
>
> "The host names are changing, but the existing host/domain will
> exist as an alias to the new hosts."
>
> --
> gil
>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER server IP address changes

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 18:24:54 +, Kurt J. Quackenbush wrote:

>SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER users, take note of the planned IBM order server IP 
>address changes on March 23.
>https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/node/6856445
>
Why should users be concerned with the IP address rather than relying on the
domain name, which will remain valid?

"The host names are changing, but the existing host/domain will
exist as an alias to the new hosts."

-- 
gil

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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Martin Trübner]

I did develop a fully featured debugger solely on TRAP for VSE.

I did that in 2000 as proof of concept or better to show that TRAP is 
not there for "year 200o fix up" as pops did say at that time.



Originally it was object code only in CICS (just to see that it works)- 
meanwhile I support CICS and batch as well as debugging source code.



I am semi retired now- but the tool is still available for free for a 
VSE environment. It supports z-arch including the z14. Because of the 
only use of TRAP to intercept it doe not need to know every instruction.



What I like to say:  pops has everything needed, but a software 
supported API would be great.



I know of one big z/OS installation that has a debugger in use that uses 
TRAP (and the author is on IBM-main as well)



Mentioning software vendors- there is a debugger called z/TDF from Arney 
Software - runs on z/OS and explored TRAP as well.



Chuck is a good friend and I can see/imagine roots of his debugger in 
talks we had (and it is way younger than mine)MINE) during various real 
life meeting (in bars) we had.



Best


Martin



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SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER server IP address changes

[Kurt J. Quackenbush]

SMP/E RECEIVE ORDER users, take note of the planned IBM order server IP address 
changes on March 23.
https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/node/6856445

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  
ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.




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Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

[zMan]

So a $xxx,xxx mainframe can double the output of a $1500 card? "Make it up
in volume"???

Seriously, this is the question I keep coming up against wrt z16 and AI:
Why would anyone use expensive Z MIPs to do AI stuff instead of cheap Intel
MIPS?

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023 at 5:52 PM David Crayford  wrote:

> On 1/3/23 06:37, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Telum isn't really an AI engine, but it has, e.g., vector capabilities
> motivated by AI applications. I expect to see it used for more than AI.
>
> Naturally, it's not an AI engine on its own; software is required for
> that functionality. An ACM article [1] suggests that a 32-chip system
> can achieve 200 tflops, which is roughly double the output of a $1500
> NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4090 graphics card with air cooling. In this context,
> low latency is a critical factor.
>
> [1] https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3470496.3533042
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on
> behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 5:30 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter
> >
> > There is a lot of AI related stuff in the announcement, including a new
> > SMF explorder that leverages Jupyter Notebooks. The z16 Telum chip has
> > integrated AI on die and a C library was published. Does anybody know if
> > this has been ported to Python numpy or tensorflow?
> >
> > In z/OS 3.1, AI and analytics solutions such as the following plan to be
> > infused into the operating system using intelligent automation and
> > accelerated inferencing at scale to extract and leverage valuable data
> > insights:
> >
> >* AI Framework support, intended to augment z/OS with intelligence
> >  that optimizes IT processes, simplifies management, improves
> >  performance, and reduces skill requirements
> >* The AI ecosystem, which z/OS 3.1 intends to extend by supporting a
> >  leading AI portfolio with the ability to deploy AI co-located with
> >  z/OS applications, designed for low latency response times
> >* AI-Powered WLM, designed to intelligently predict upcoming batch
> >  workload and react accordingly for optimized system resources
> >* IBM SMF Explorer, a data access and analysis toolkit designed to
> >  help even novice users access SMF data and extract insights in an
> >  easy and modern way, leveraging Python and Jupyter Notebooks
> >
> >
> > On 28/2/23 23:35, Lionel B. Dyck wrote:
> >> This is the US Version of the announcement letter
> >>
> >>
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fcommon%2Fssi%2FShowDoc.wss%3FdocURL%3D%2Fcommon%2Fssi%2Frep_ca%2F3%2F897%2FE&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=T29yGFYduLO1l5NnTX%2F3R8rp7PvyftOfwGRRxo8%2FTJI%3D&reserved=0
> >> NUS223-013/index.html&lang=en&request_locale=en
> >>
> >>
> >> Lionel B. Dyck <><
> >> Website:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lbdsoftware.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=2wcVQvDmJyMbVPtSX2kdfaeqT1adqj4WxavRksv6WZ4%3D&reserved=0
> >> Github:
> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Flbdyck&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C146e636a9e0d4228361708db19db8324%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132202822676826%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6uG8%2FMdtffGt3Vf34ruiOF7gz%2FsrqULbblyj5tD6geg%3D&reserved=0
> >>
> >> “Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is
> what you
> >> are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden
> >>
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zFS Setup for zOSMF

[Steve Beaver]

I would like to socialize the following structure for use in zOSMF

 

/PPRODSYSHFS.OMVS.DEV1.PRODUCTS --
CYL(5)

/PPROD/IBM   SYSHFS.OMVS.DEV1.IBM --
CYL(10)  

/PPROD/BMC  SYSHFS.OMVS.DEV1.BMC   --
CYL(10)

/PPROD/BROADCOMSYSHFS.OMVS.DEV1.BROADCOM  --CYL(10)

 

Theses zFS files are not at all large but you can see the structure I have
defined

 

_


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Hardware instrumentation presentation

[Colin Paice]

I've been asked to give a talk on performance to a University Computing
department.

I know the z hardware has in builtin instrumentation which allows you to
see where the delays were for a particular instruction.  For example this
load instruction got data from the L3 cache and it took x nano seconds.

Is there a presentation on this?

I remember seeing a presentation (it may have been IBM confidential)
showing that a Load could be slow, if the data was in a the cache in a book
3 ft away, compared to it being in the cache on the chip.
Also the second time round a loop is faster than the first time because the
instructions are in the instruction cache.

This was all mind blowing stuff!

Colin

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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Charles Mills]

One potential business justification for IBM would be "to sell the hardware 
that contains this spiffy feature."

Isn't that essentially the business justification for *all* new z/OS features?

Charles


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Farley, Peter
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 8:33 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US 
Letter]

<*Sigh*> Yes, I do understand the "business justification/resource allocation" 
argument/excuse.  I deal with similar issues all the time in my employer's 
business.  I hate it, but it is real.

IMHO the IBM z/OS development team should never have *needed* a "formal 
request/requirement" to implement OS support for an implemented architectural 
feature.  There is a new hardware feature, our clients will no doubt wish to 
take advantage of its benefits, let's support that feature.  Full stop.

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 2/3/23 00:54, René Jansen wrote:

maybe I was not clear.

it *is* an executable jar with the manifest built into it.


Then somebody needs to fix the scripts so it's usable by just setting 
PATH and using the current working directory.




On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:52, David Crayford  wrote:

On 2/3/23 00:34, René Jansen wrote:

Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run 
NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say you 
want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your program - 
it will look on CLASSPATH for those.



Yes, I know that. I only want to execute the compiler without setting 
CLASSPATH. It should be an executable Jar with the main mainifest built in to 
the Jar. It makes NetRexx difficult to use and the documentation is Windows 
oriented.



On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:

On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.

Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene



On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:

Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

so this should work for you:

➜  test git:(master) ✗ cat hello.nrx
import java.lang.String

say 'hello java' System.getProperty("java.version")

loop i=long 0 to 10
hello(i)
end

loop i=long 0 to 10
hello(java.lang.String(i))
end

method hello(j)
  say "hello" j

  method hello(j=long)
say "hello long" j

  method hello(j=java.lang.String)
say "hello String" j
➜  test git:(master) ✗ unset CLASSPATH
➜  test git:(master) ✗ echo $CLASSPATH

➜  test git:(master) ✗ java -jar NetRexxC.jar hello
NetRexx portable processor 4.05-beta build 374-20230213-1052
Copyright (c) RexxLA, 2011,2023.   All rights reserved.
Parts Copyright (c) IBM Corporation, 1995,2008.
Program hello.nrx
constructor hello(Rexx)
constructor hello(long)
constructor hello(String)
Compilation of 'hello.nrx' successful
➜  test git:(master) ✗

I have a global CLASSPATH, and only for specific projects I have a -cp on the 
command line for Make or Ninja, to have control over versions and libraries.
A global classpath enables me to check if all code is still compatible with the 
combination of releases from different libraries I use.
But as you see it is not really needed. We are not mandating anything, and if 
you want to run from a jar, that is fine.

best regards,

René.

> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:
>> Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.
> 
> Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene
> 
> 
>> 
>>> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?
>> 
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

maybe I was not clear.

it *is* an executable jar with the manifest built into it.

> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:52, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> On 2/3/23 00:34, René Jansen wrote:
>> Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run 
>> NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say 
>> you want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your 
>> program - it will look on CLASSPATH for those.
>> 
>> 
> Yes, I know that. I only want to execute the compiler without setting 
> CLASSPATH. It should be an executable Jar with the main mainifest built in to 
> the Jar. It makes NetRexx difficult to use and the documentation is Windows 
> oriented.
> 
> 
>>> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:
 Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.
>>> Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene
>>> 
>>> 
> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?
 --
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 2/3/23 00:34, René Jansen wrote:

Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run 
NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say you 
want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your program - 
it will look on CLASSPATH for those.


Yes, I know that. I only want to execute the compiler without setting 
CLASSPATH. It should be an executable Jar with the main mainifest built 
in to the Jar. It makes NetRexx difficult to use and the documentation 
is Windows oriented.




On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:

On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.

Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene



On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:

Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

Yes, I know. But linking to other code in .class files does. You can run 
NetRexx from the .jar file. This finds all NetRexx classes. But let’s say you 
want to use a Java TreeMap, or some crypto algorithm like FPE in your program - 
it will look on CLASSPATH for those.


> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:23, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:
>> Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.
> 
> Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene
> 
> 
>> 
>>> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?
>> 
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Re: Full TRAP feature support [was: RE: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter]

[Farley, Peter]

<*Sigh*> Yes, I do understand the "business justification/resource allocation" 
argument/excuse.  I deal with similar issues all the time in my employer's 
business.  I hate it, but it is real.

IMHO the IBM z/OS development team should never have *needed* a "formal 
request/requirement" to implement OS support for an implemented architectural 
feature.  There is a new hardware feature, our clients will no doubt wish to 
take advantage of its benefits, let's support that feature.  Full stop.

But please accept my apologies, I am obviously beating that poor dead horse 
once again.

As an alternative, would it ever be possible for IBM to publish the program 
design and detailed error-handling needed to practically and *safely* use the 
TRAP feature?  Maybe a Redbook project sponsored by the Debug Tool team?  
Something detailed enough to enable a knowledgeable independent developer to 
produce the code you say IBM won't ever write.  I wouldn't expect the major 
ISV's to undertake it, it is far too small a market for them to spend real 
money on (there is that dad-blasted "business justification" thing again), but 
an independent developer might wish to spend *their* private time on getting it 
done, IFF they had all the details needed to do it the right way without 
needing to guess what to do.

I would hope that publishing information on how to properly and safely use an 
existing (and already published) architectural feature wouldn't run afoul of IP 
concerns.

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Peter Relson
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 9:57 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

EXTERNAL EMAIL

Peter F wrote:

What I would like to know is when z/OS development will finally manage to find 
the round tuits to actually implement a supported API to actually be able to 
USE the TRAP (and compare-and-trap) instructions introduced to the architecture 
so long ago I have forgotten which zArch generation they in came with (and I'm 
too tired to go looking for that generation today).


I believe IBM Debug Tool uses this. But you're right that there is no API 
provided.

And given the amount of time that has gone by and the fact that, to my 
knowledge, there never has been a formal request/requirement submitted asking 
for such an API, the answer to your question (unless such a requirement is 
submitted) is, in practice, "never".

And a new requirement might be declined unless there is significant business 
justification that would make this a good candidate.

We all wish that we were in a world where "should" would match "it is", but 
there is always a resource tradeoff to be made between competing items and the 
question has to be answered of what would you the customer (and IBM) be willing 
to sacrifice getting in order to get "this". "Should" only takes you so far. 
That should be apparent to all (but many discussions on IBM-Main do not seem to 
take that into account).

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design
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Re: Bob Richards

[willie bunter]

 Very sad news.  Some of the best minds who have contributed to this board have 
left us.  Their loss is always felt.
Willie.

On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 10:15:10 p.m. EST, Rick Troth 
 wrote:  
 
 friends --

Our colleague Bob Richards passed away early this month (Feb).
He has lots of friends on this list, and I know that some already know, 
but I had not seen an announcement and I thought the rest should be aware.

I was able to keep in touch by way of his wife Rebecca. She is, of 
course, totally devastated.


-- R; <><

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 2/3/23 00:20, René Jansen wrote:

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.


Executable Jars don't require setting a CLASSPATH Rene





On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:

Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?


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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

Well, it *is* an executable jar. Up to you.

> On 1 Mar 2023, at 17:17, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?


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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 1/3/23 23:54, René Jansen wrote:

yes. https://github.com/RexxLA/NetRexx

The problem there is, you have lots of other things on CLASSPATH if you do any 
real development. Also, someone might not use the nrc script at all - I don’t, 
because I just have an alias nrc=“java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC”.


I don't set a global CLASSPATH environment variable! That's completely 
bonkers.




Also, when used in environments without a Java compiler (and we see those often 
in companies, only a JRE) use want NetRexxF.jar because that includes the 
ecilpse Java compiler. Everything is documented, of course.

But I am open to suggestions! At least it should add a $CLASSPATH, not only the 
NetRexxC.jar


Why doesn't it just use an executable jar and use "-jar"?




best regards,

René.




On 1 Mar 2023, at 16:39, David Crayford  wrote:

On 1/3/23 23:13, David Crayford wrote:

I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. I've 
added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the NetRexxC 
classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. Must be 
optimized for Windows weenies.


Argghhh. Let me know when it's fixed. I hate candy machine interfaces. It's so 
easy to set the working directory relative to the binary in *nix systems!!

java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC $*
if test $? -eq 0; then
   if test "$netrexx_run" = "yes"; then
 echo "Running $1..."
 if [ ! -f $1".class" ]; then
 echo "-run error: class file not found - do not add .nrx to 
name"
 exit
 fi
 java $1
   fi
fi




On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:

by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with 
numpy - had not expected that.
Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.

➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes


On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:

❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

best regards,

René.
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Saw this today

[Rob Schramm]

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20230301005316/en/Rocket-Software-Acquires-Key-Resources-Inc.-Expanding-Mainframe-Security-Capabilities

Rob Schramm

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Takeaway from the mentioned book referring BLAS in context of Python, Java, C ... Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Rony G. Flatscher]

On 01.03.2023 15:15, René Jansen wrote:

Well yes - that is really apples and oranges, and thanks for proving my point.

Numpy leverages hand tuned assembly (BLAS) with hinting for different chip 
levels and architectures, and the difference with plain python is shown 
here:https://en.algorithmica.org/hpc/complexity/languages/  You can of course 
integrate OpenBLAS into everything.


... cut ...

The above chapter from the above URL has an interesting Takeaway at the end of that chapter, 
worthwhile citing in the context of this thread:



 # 
Takeaway

   The key lesson here is that using a native, low-level language doesn’t 
necessarily give you
   performance; but it does give you /control/ over performance.

   Complementary to the “N operations per second” simplification, many 
programmers also have a
   misconception that using different programming languages has some sort of 
multiplier on that
   number. Thinking this way and comparing languages
    in 
terms of performance
   doesn’t make much sense: programming languages are fundamentally just tools 
that take away
   /some/ control over performance in exchange for convenient abstractions. 
Regardless of the
   execution environment, it is still largely a programmer’s job to use the 
opportunities that the
   hardware provides.

---rony

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

yes. https://github.com/RexxLA/NetRexx

The problem there is, you have lots of other things on CLASSPATH if you do any 
real development. Also, someone might not use the nrc script at all - I don’t, 
because I just have an alias nrc=“java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC”.

Also, when used in environments without a Java compiler (and we see those often 
in companies, only a JRE) use want NetRexxF.jar because that includes the 
ecilpse Java compiler. Everything is documented, of course.

But I am open to suggestions! At least it should add a $CLASSPATH, not only the 
NetRexxC.jar

best regards,

René.



> On 1 Mar 2023, at 16:39, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> On 1/3/23 23:13, David Crayford wrote:
>> I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. 
>> I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the 
>> NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. 
>> Must be optimized for Windows weenies.
>> 
> Argghhh. Let me know when it's fixed. I hate candy machine interfaces. It's 
> so easy to set the working directory relative to the binary in *nix systems!!
> 
> java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC $*
> if test $? -eq 0; then
>   if test "$netrexx_run" = "yes"; then
> echo "Running $1..."
> if [ ! -f $1".class" ]; then
> echo "-run error: class file not found - do not add .nrx to 
> name"
> exit
> fi
> java $1
>   fi
> fi
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:
>>> by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python 
>>> with numpy - had not expected that.
>>> Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.
>>> 
>>> ➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
>>> joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes
>>> 
 On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:
 
 ❯ python3 PrimePy.py
 Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
 emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8
>>> best regards,
>>> 
>>> René.
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 1/3/23 23:39, René Jansen wrote:

No, and I use it mostly on macOS and Linux.it is just what Java requires: the 
NetRexxC.jar file must be on CLASSPATH. It (CLASSPATH) takes files, not 
directories, you might be successful with a /* but I never do that.


I can fix the "nrc" script to set the CLASSPATH relative to the binary. 
Is it on github?







On 1 Mar 2023, at 16:13, David Crayford  wrote:

I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. I've 
added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the NetRexxC 
classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. Must be 
optimized for Windows weenies.

On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:

by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with 
numpy - had not expected that.
Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.

➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes


On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:

❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

best regards,

René.
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

On 1/3/23 23:13, David Crayford wrote:
I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on 
Linux. I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it 
can't load the NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib 
directory on my CLASSPATH. Must be optimized for Windows weenies.


Argghhh. Let me know when it's fixed. I hate candy machine interfaces. 
It's so easy to set the working directory relative to the binary in *nix 
systems!!


java org.netrexx.process.NetRexxC $*
if test $? -eq 0; then
  if test "$netrexx_run" = "yes"; then
    echo "Running $1..."
    if [ ! -f $1".class" ]; then
    echo "-run error: class file not found - do not add 
.nrx to name"

    exit
    fi
    java $1
  fi
fi




On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:
by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your 
Python with numpy - had not expected that.

Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.

➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes


On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:

❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, 
Limit: 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
emillynge_numpy; 
6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

best regards,

René.
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

No, and I use it mostly on macOS and Linux.it is just what Java requires: the 
NetRexxC.jar file must be on CLASSPATH. It (CLASSPATH) takes files, not 
directories, you might be successful with a /* but I never do that.


> On 1 Mar 2023, at 16:13, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on Linux. 
> I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't load the 
> NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib directory on my CLASSPATH. 
> Must be optimized for Windows weenies.
> 
> On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:
>> by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with 
>> numpy - had not expected that.
>> Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.
>> 
>> ➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
>> joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes
>> 
>>> On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> ❯ python3 PrimePy.py
>>> Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
>>> 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
>>> emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8
>> best regards,
>> 
>> René.
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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

I'm happy to verify on my PC but I found NetRexx to be hopeless on 
Linux. I've added the /bin to my PATH but it's failing because it can't 
load the NetRexxC classes even though I have set the /lib directory on 
my CLASSPATH. Must be optimized for Windows weenies.


On 1/3/23 22:35, René Jansen wrote:

by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with 
numpy - had not expected that.
Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.

➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes


On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:

❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

best regards,

René.
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Re: z/OS 3.1 Announcement US Letter

[Peter Relson]

Peter F wrote:

What I would like to know is when z/OS development will finally manage to find 
the round tuits to actually implement a supported API to actually be able to 
USE the TRAP (and compare-and-trap) instructions introduced to the architecture 
so long ago I have forgotten which zArch generation they in came with (and I'm 
too tired to go looking for that generation today).


I believe IBM Debug Tool uses this. But you're right that there is no API 
provided.

And given the amount of time that has gone by and the fact that, to my 
knowledge, there never has been a formal request/requirement submitted asking 
for such an API, the answer to your question (unless such a requirement is 
submitted) is, in practice, "never".

And a new requirement might be declined unless there is significant business 
justification that would make this a good candidate.

We all wish that we were in a world where "should" would match "it is", but 
there is always a resource tradeoff to be made between competing items and the 
question has to be answered of what would you the customer (and IBM) be willing 
to sacrifice getting in order to get "this". "Should" only takes you so far. 
That should be apparent to all (but many discussions on IBM-Main do not seem to 
take that into account).

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

by the way, thanks for that url. It seems my NetRexx smokes your Python with 
numpy - had not expected that.
Note that NetRexx runs on z/OS and is well-maintained.

➜  solution_2 git:(drag-race) ✗ PrimeNetRexx.class
joss_NetRexx;8766;5.000282;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=yes

> On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> ❯ python3 PrimePy.py
> Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
> 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
> emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

best regards,

René.
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Re: z/VM DASD Performance Reports

[Steve Thompson]

You may want to ask in the VM List:  VM-List 
  This will probably reject giving you 
info on how to subscribe. I've forgotten how that works.


Meanwhile, what monitoring tools do you have for VM other than 
the VM DASD reporting?


Steve Thompson

On 3/1/2023 8:40 AM, Jasi Grewal wrote:

Hi, I am interested in looking for z/VM DASD Performance reports and wondering 
if there is anything better than the one which are generated by Perfsvm 
(FCXnnn) reports. Our zVSE machines are experiencing performance issues and 
would like to understand DASD peak i/o rates. It is unfortunate we are not 
running any z/OS guest machines as I could have used RMF.
Thank you in advance,Regards,Jasi Grewal..

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

Well yes - that is really apples and oranges, and thanks for proving my point.

Numpy leverages hand tuned assembly (BLAS) with hinting for different chip 
levels and architectures, and the difference with plain python is shown here: 
https://en.algorithmica.org/hpc/complexity/languages/ You can of course 
integrate OpenBLAS into everything.

It is not my problem that IBM chooses to starve the support of the assets that 
brought in money, or fails to innovate them. I would have expected all language 
products to be able to use Decimal Floating Point (DFP) instructions on the 
mainframe by now - but apparently the Rexx compiler does not know about those 
yet. The interpreter probably even less, as that is mostly 24 bit when the 
compiler still manages 31 and still has mode technical debt to clear.

All modern editing features (folding, syntax coloring) come from STET, LEXX, 
Xedit and ISPF/PDF. IBM choose with OS/2 to throw out the baby with the bath 
water, and did not develop wonderfull technology- LPEX, son of LEXX, was given 
to Eclipse and did not get significantly better. Meanwhile, everybody 
intergrated these ideas. The same goes for Python and Ruby, both done by people 
knowing Rexx.

The 1970’s did not have ISPF, that was only later, >1985, with SPF being around 
1984. These could have been developed into proper PC/Internet type 
editing/paneling systems which would have made building apps and webpages a lot 
easier and more fun than the current flock of js tools, which all more or less 
try to imitate the 3270 attribute byte model, but rather poorly. But don’t take 
my word for it, watch the market and see what people do.

I am not stating that Rexx (on the mainframe) has not been neglected, I am just 
worried that you need skewed benchmarks (and years of hand-tuned Fortran and 
Assembler) to present a false impression about a product that is not there yet.

best regards,

René.


> On 1 Mar 2023, at 14:16, David Crayford  wrote:
> 
> Have you heard of Dave Plummer's Primes benchmark project, which is widely 
> regarded as a reliable way to test the speed of programming languages? In 
> this test, ooRexx only managed to complete 13 passes in 5 seconds, while 
> Python with numpy completed 6969 passes, thanks to its ability to leverage 
> GPU processing power. Given that Python has a large community of developers 
> backed by big tech, it's not surprising that more investment is being made to 
> improve its performance compared to REXX. Similarly, TSO/ISPF is only 
> supported by one person, so IBM may not prioritize investing in it as they 
> focus on other strategic areas to keep the mainframe technology relevant. 
> While this news may not be welcomed by some, it's important to consider the 
> bigger picture of ensuring the longevity of mainframe technology. We need to 
> attract young talent to the platform not handcuff them with tools for the 
> 1970's no matter how comforting they may be for old timers like us.
> 
> ❯ rexx PrimeRexx.rex
> joss_REXX;13;5.084288;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=no
> 
> 
> 8:59
> ❯ python3 PrimePy.py
> Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, Limit: 
> 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True
> emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8
> 
> [1] https://github.com/PlummersSoftwareLLC/Primes
> 
> On 1/3/23 20:52, René Jansen wrote:
>> I agree with Rony. I think your ‘benchmarks’ are a bit synthetic but I 
>> understand your goal. I think calling ISPF ‘a relic’ and constantly 
>> badgering Rexx does not serve any purpose in front of this audience, most of 
>> which see ISPF as something shiny and worthwhile (e.g. to have on OS VS2 
>> r3.8 (clones of Rexx and ISPF have even been built there recently)).
>> 
>> We know IBM has divested some of its software maintenance. It is important 
>> to remember that ’the new mainframe’ *if casted in the image of Windows or 
>> Linux* always would be a hampered version of something. The mainframe is a 
>> high-end market and not everybody needs one anymore. It could be 
>> competitive, but it would need competition, a sane pricing scheme and less 
>> RACF admins reared in the 80’s ‘lock her down’ mindset. That last thing, not 
>> the toolset, is why it is hard to get new staff in.
>> 
>> If good tools were enabled young people would choose them and use them. 
>> There is no need for any badmouthing or skewed benchmarks. If one needs fast 
>> I/O, one writes assembler or COBOL.  It is important to not let new tools 
>> loose before their time, and seen the difference in the number of interfaces 
>> to the OS compared to Rexx, the time of Python has not come yet. I remember 
>> IBM or Rational people demoing the new GUI way of working to grumpy old 
>> COBOL programmers, and always having to open a 3270 TSO session to do 
>> something or other before the demo could go on. It was a laugh. In the end, 
>> it meant that the quality of people’s 3270 emulators went down the drain a

z/VM DASD Performance Reports

[Jasi Grewal]

Hi, I am interested in looking for z/VM DASD Performance reports and wondering 
if there is anything better than the one which are generated by Perfsvm 
(FCXnnn) reports. Our zVSE machines are experiencing performance issues and 
would like to understand DASD peak i/o rates. It is unfortunate we are not 
running any z/OS guest machines as I could have used RMF.
Thank you in advance,Regards,Jasi Grewal..

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[David Crayford]

Have you heard of Dave Plummer's Primes benchmark project, which is 
widely regarded as a reliable way to test the speed of programming 
languages? In this test, ooRexx only managed to complete 13 passes in 5 
seconds, while Python with numpy completed 6969 passes, thanks to its 
ability to leverage GPU processing power. Given that Python has a large 
community of developers backed by big tech, it's not surprising that 
more investment is being made to improve its performance compared to 
REXX. Similarly, TSO/ISPF is only supported by one person, so IBM may 
not prioritize investing in it as they focus on other strategic areas to 
keep the mainframe technology relevant. While this news may not be 
welcomed by some, it's important to consider the bigger picture of 
ensuring the longevity of mainframe technology. We need to attract young 
talent to the platform not handcuff them with tools for the 1970's no 
matter how comforting they may be for old timers like us.


❯ rexx PrimeRexx.rex
joss_REXX;13;5.084288;1;algorithm=base,bits=8,faithful=no


8:59
❯ python3 PrimePy.py
Passes: 6769, Time: 5.000584452878684, Avg: 0.0007387478878532551, 
Limit: 100, Count: 78498, Valid: True

emillynge_numpy; 6769;5.000584452878684;1;algorithm=base,faithful=no,bits=8

[1] https://github.com/PlummersSoftwareLLC/Primes

On 1/3/23 20:52, René Jansen wrote:

I agree with Rony. I think your ‘benchmarks’ are a bit synthetic but I 
understand your goal. I think calling ISPF ‘a relic’ and constantly badgering 
Rexx does not serve any purpose in front of this audience, most of which see 
ISPF as something shiny and worthwhile (e.g. to have on OS VS2 r3.8 (clones of 
Rexx and ISPF have even been built there recently)).

We know IBM has divested some of its software maintenance. It is important to 
remember that ’the new mainframe’ *if casted in the image of Windows or Linux* 
always would be a hampered version of something. The mainframe is a high-end 
market and not everybody needs one anymore. It could be competitive, but it 
would need competition, a sane pricing scheme and less RACF admins reared in 
the 80’s ‘lock her down’ mindset. That last thing, not the toolset, is why it 
is hard to get new staff in.

If good tools were enabled young people would choose them and use them. There 
is no need for any badmouthing or skewed benchmarks. If one needs fast I/O, one 
writes assembler or COBOL.  It is important to not let new tools loose before 
their time, and seen the difference in the number of interfaces to the OS 
compared to Rexx, the time of Python has not come yet. I remember IBM or 
Rational people demoing the new GUI way of working to grumpy old COBOL 
programmers, and always having to open a 3270 TSO session to do something or 
other before the demo could go on. It was a laugh. In the end, it meant that 
the quality of people’s 3270 emulators went down the drain and they were 
grumpier than ever.

I am sure Visual Studio Code is a nice editor (I sometimes use it on the Mac 
for markdown, mermaid plugins etc) but it is not going to sell mainframes - 
there will be VBS to confront, and maybe VSAM. And obj modules. And probably 
Cool:gen or RPG. What adaptation to modern dinky machines does, is more dynamic 
memory usage, more senseless multithreading and worse algorithms - just read in 
that 88MB XML file and shove it into a Db2 column. Where you used to be able to 
run an LPAR flat out at 100%, you cannot do that anymore because websphere and 
service oriented architecture.

With IBM’s current approach and its horrible handling of its intellectual 
property (sealing it off from a legal perspective, and neglecting it from a 
development point of view) the mainframe is going to be a niche market. That is 
not bad in itself: look at Tandem, long dead but still non-stop running a very 
large part of cards transactions.

If IBM had been serious about the cloud, it would have been forced to 
acknowledge that it would have been best and cheapest to run it on mainframe 
lpars in sysplexes and on COBOL, but alas, they were not serious at all and 
told us mainframe ‘always were the cloud’ but forgot to build one doing what 
they did best.

We like Xedit, we like ISPF. We like Rexx, and we are very fortunate that IBM 
open sourced Object Rexx and NetRexx before that window closed and the open 
sourcing was locked down with ‘business cases’. It also meant, of course, they 
are never going to maintain it again. We now see important parts in the hands 
of private companies, and we see everything we know built anew, but worse. And, 
old problems, once solved, are coming back (memory fragmentation anyone?). 
Transactions? We now have No-SQL but please don’t run my bank accounts on it. 
My suggestion would be to keep working on new things, but we don’t need the 
negative propaganda. On the other hand, now would be a good time for IBM to 
open source and publish everything they reaped the benefits from over and over, 
instead of allowing

Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Rick Troth]

On 3/1/23 06:15, Rony G. Flatscher wrote:
As ooRexx is CMake based this should be quite feasible for such a huge 
computer company (having so many excellently skilled employees) like IBM. 


CMake seems to work well for ooRexx. But I counter the idea that it 
really facilitates building of ooRexx for all IBM platforms, nor would 
CMake facilitate integration of ooRexx with systems and applications.


In a former life, I opposed CMake because it explicitly stomps on 
hand-crafted makefiles. But that only matters if you're part of the 
development team. (For ooRexx, I'm not, so it matters less.)


More recently, I have finally managed to update my own "wrapper" build 
logic for ooRexx. (Many thanks to René and others for helping me on that 
point.) But I find that CMake varies enough from one platform to the 
next that I've only been able to build ooRexx on /one/ of the half dozen 
target systems. So I'm now having supplemental CMake pain. (Apart from 
issues when I was a developer and beyond learning curve and relocation 
of curdled dairy products.)


Good multi-platform readiness has to happen at a deeper level. From what 
I see, ooRexx can get their, but it's not a drop-in.
Seamless integration has to work in the bowels of the interpreter. Of 
that I can see very little w/r/t ooRexx. (I do see that Regina is ripe 
for integration, but was not / am not raising a flag against ooRexx in 
this note.)



-- R; <><


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Re: BookManager

[Martin Packer]

s/was/is 😊

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Roger Bolan 
Date: Wednesday, 1 March 2023 at 01:07
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: BookManager
The B2H tool was BookMaster source to  HTML, not BookManager

On Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 11:19 AM Colin Paice  wrote:

> There is a very old B2H package which I think is Rexx based.  It was
> supported on Windows NT, OS2, VM, OS390 etc,
> I think I used to use it.  It is mentioned
> http://afrodita.rcub.bg.ac.rs/~ivica/b2h.html
> Colin
>
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 at 18:00, Bernd Oppolzer 
> wrote:
>
> > What is the preferred way to convert BookMgr books to PDF?
> >
> > My customer has some home-written BookMgr books, which they cannot access
> > after the z/OS migration (BookMgr support was dropped with z/OS 2.4).
> >
> > We managed to transfer the books to Windows (and OS/2, BTW), where we can
> > at least look at the books. Now I would like to convert the books to
> PDFs.
> > But the free Softcopy Reader refuses to print more than one (selected)
> > topic
> > or ranges of topics; if you try to do this using the print menu
> > (selected or range),
> > the output is always empty.
> >
> > Is this a bug - or: is printing larger portions of text not allowed in
> > the free version?
> > What are the options?
> >
> > The eMail address book...@us.ibm.com, which is mentioned in the Softcopy
> > Reader
> > help texts, doesn't exist any more (BTW: the Softcopy Reader is a 2012
> > edition;
> > this seems to be the last one available).
> >
> > Is there a documented API to read the books using a C or REXX program
> > and build the PDFs this way? Or build HTML from the books?
> >
> > Thanks for all suggestions,
> > kind regards
> >
> > Bernd
> >
> > --
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> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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>
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Re: BookManager

[Martin Packer]

B2H does BookMASTER to HTML, not BookManager to PDF. (And, yes, HTML to PDF is 
probably trivial for most people.)

I use B2H on TSO in Batch almost daily, FWIW.

Cheers, Martin

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Colin Paice 
Date: Tuesday, 28 February 2023 at 18:19
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: BookManager
There is a very old B2H package which I think is Rexx based.  It was
supported on Windows NT, OS2, VM, OS390 etc,
I think I used to use it.  It is mentioned
http://afrodita.rcub.bg.ac.rs/~ivica/b2h.html
Colin

On Tue, 28 Feb 2023 at 18:00, Bernd Oppolzer 
wrote:

> What is the preferred way to convert BookMgr books to PDF?
>
> My customer has some home-written BookMgr books, which they cannot access
> after the z/OS migration (BookMgr support was dropped with z/OS 2.4).
>
> We managed to transfer the books to Windows (and OS/2, BTW), where we can
> at least look at the books. Now I would like to convert the books to PDFs.
> But the free Softcopy Reader refuses to print more than one (selected)
> topic
> or ranges of topics; if you try to do this using the print menu
> (selected or range),
> the output is always empty.
>
> Is this a bug - or: is printing larger portions of text not allowed in
> the free version?
> What are the options?
>
> The eMail address book...@us.ibm.com, which is mentioned in the Softcopy
> Reader
> help texts, doesn't exist any more (BTW: the Softcopy Reader is a 2012
> edition;
> this seems to be the last one available).
>
> Is there a documented API to read the books using a C or REXX program
> and build the PDFs this way? Or build HTML from the books?
>
> Thanks for all suggestions,
> kind regards
>
> Bernd
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[René Jansen]

I agree with Rony. I think your ‘benchmarks’ are a bit synthetic but I 
understand your goal. I think calling ISPF ‘a relic’ and constantly badgering 
Rexx does not serve any purpose in front of this audience, most of which see 
ISPF as something shiny and worthwhile (e.g. to have on OS VS2 r3.8 (clones of 
Rexx and ISPF have even been built there recently)).

We know IBM has divested some of its software maintenance. It is important to 
remember that ’the new mainframe’ *if casted in the image of Windows or Linux* 
always would be a hampered version of something. The mainframe is a high-end 
market and not everybody needs one anymore. It could be competitive, but it 
would need competition, a sane pricing scheme and less RACF admins reared in 
the 80’s ‘lock her down’ mindset. That last thing, not the toolset, is why it 
is hard to get new staff in.

If good tools were enabled young people would choose them and use them. There 
is no need for any badmouthing or skewed benchmarks. If one needs fast I/O, one 
writes assembler or COBOL.  It is important to not let new tools loose before 
their time, and seen the difference in the number of interfaces to the OS 
compared to Rexx, the time of Python has not come yet. I remember IBM or 
Rational people demoing the new GUI way of working to grumpy old COBOL 
programmers, and always having to open a 3270 TSO session to do something or 
other before the demo could go on. It was a laugh. In the end, it meant that 
the quality of people’s 3270 emulators went down the drain and they were 
grumpier than ever.

I am sure Visual Studio Code is a nice editor (I sometimes use it on the Mac 
for markdown, mermaid plugins etc) but it is not going to sell mainframes - 
there will be VBS to confront, and maybe VSAM. And obj modules. And probably 
Cool:gen or RPG. What adaptation to modern dinky machines does, is more dynamic 
memory usage, more senseless multithreading and worse algorithms - just read in 
that 88MB XML file and shove it into a Db2 column. Where you used to be able to 
run an LPAR flat out at 100%, you cannot do that anymore because websphere and 
service oriented architecture.

With IBM’s current approach and its horrible handling of its intellectual 
property (sealing it off from a legal perspective, and neglecting it from a 
development point of view) the mainframe is going to be a niche market. That is 
not bad in itself: look at Tandem, long dead but still non-stop running a very 
large part of cards transactions.

If IBM had been serious about the cloud, it would have been forced to 
acknowledge that it would have been best and cheapest to run it on mainframe 
lpars in sysplexes and on COBOL, but alas, they were not serious at all and 
told us mainframe ‘always were the cloud’ but forgot to build one doing what 
they did best.

We like Xedit, we like ISPF. We like Rexx, and we are very fortunate that IBM 
open sourced Object Rexx and NetRexx before that window closed and the open 
sourcing was locked down with ‘business cases’. It also meant, of course, they 
are never going to maintain it again. We now see important parts in the hands 
of private companies, and we see everything we know built anew, but worse. And, 
old problems, once solved, are coming back (memory fragmentation anyone?). 
Transactions? We now have No-SQL but please don’t run my bank accounts on it. 
My suggestion would be to keep working on new things, but we don’t need the 
negative propaganda. On the other hand, now would be a good time for IBM to 
open source and publish everything they reaped the benefits from over and over, 
instead of allowing it to wither and waste. And IBM should invent some good new 
stuff.

best regards,

René.




> On 1 Mar 2023, at 12:15, Rony G. Flatscher  wrote:
> 
> On 28.02.2023 20:55, David Crayford wrote:
>> I respectfully express my opinion without intending to badmouth anyone. I 
>> believe that benchmarking the performance of reading a large file is not an 
>> artificial test but rather a real-world use case that we encounter 
>> regularly. It is no secret that REXX on z/OS can be slow. In fact, one of my 
>> colleagues who worked on the IBM File Manager product, which incorporates 
>> REXX scripting, developed their own subset of REXX because the performance 
>> of the TSO REXX interpreter did not meet their objectives.
> 
> If that is the case then it shows that IBM needs to maintain their mainframe 
> REXX by replacing it with an up-to-date version of REXX (finally).

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Silly JES2 question

[Dave Jousma]

On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 00:04:16 +0100, Radoslaw Skorupka  
wrote:

>W dniu 28.02.2023 o 15:18, Dave Jousma pisze:
>>
>> There is no native z/OS support to limit who can use what job classes.   We 
>> had to RYO inserting SAF calls in IEFUJI, IKJEFF10, and ISFUSR.IEFUJI is 
>> the real gate keeper, the others are just for the users convenience when 
>> submitting a job, or changing jobclasses in SDSF.
>
>Yes, you *were* right.
>However it is no longer true. Since z/OS 2.1 AFAIR.
>JESJOBS class. Srchfor JES.JOBCLASS.OWNER and JES.JOBCLASS.SUBMITTER
>
>--

Well, there you go.   Just learned something new again.Thanks for that 
Radoslaw!

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Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Seymour J Metz]

Is there an active SHARE requirement for ANSI Rexx, ooRexx or both?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rony G. Flatscher [rony.flatsc...@wu.ac.at]
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 6:15 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and 
zOWE for non-mainframers

On 28.02.2023 20:55, David Crayford wrote:
> I respectfully express my opinion without intending to badmouth anyone. I 
> believe that
> benchmarking the performance of reading a large file is not an artificial 
> test but rather a
> real-world use case that we encounter regularly. It is no secret that REXX on 
> z/OS can be slow. In
> fact, one of my colleagues who worked on the IBM File Manager product, which 
> incorporates REXX
> scripting, developed their own subset of REXX because the performance of the 
> TSO REXX interpreter
> did not meet their objectives.

If that is the case then it shows that IBM needs to maintain their mainframe 
REXX by replacing it
with an up-to-date version of REXX (finally).

ooRexx would be a candidate as extending it with external function packages and 
Rexx command
handlers can be done with C++ and Java. ooRexx was developed by IBM and has 
been put into
open-source by the Rexx Language [1] association after having received the 
source code by IBM for
that purpose.

Besides allowing the REXX coding knowledge to be used/applied immediately, a 
lot of benefitial
abilities would become available at a finger tip, including among other things 
the ability to
quickly create datastructures (classes) with attributes and routines if needed 
and gaining an
incredible flexibility (to ease coding problems) with the incorporated message 
paradigm making it a
natural language for any message/queue based infrastructures.

Of course, such a port needs to be done by knowledgeable and professional 
people who have no hidden
agenda to make it (or any other interpreted language) look bad, au contraire, 
having the motivation
to get the best possible port for mainframes and thereby for REXX programmers 
on the mainframe.

As ooRexx is CMake based this should be quite feasible for such a huge computer 
company (having so
many excellently skilled employees) like IBM.

---rony

[1] Rexx Language Association (RexxLA): 


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Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Rony G. Flatscher]

On 28.02.2023 20:55, David Crayford wrote:
I respectfully express my opinion without intending to badmouth anyone. I believe that 
benchmarking the performance of reading a large file is not an artificial test but rather a 
real-world use case that we encounter regularly. It is no secret that REXX on z/OS can be slow. In 
fact, one of my colleagues who worked on the IBM File Manager product, which incorporates REXX 
scripting, developed their own subset of REXX because the performance of the TSO REXX interpreter 
did not meet their objectives.


If that is the case then it shows that IBM needs to maintain their mainframe REXX by replacing it 
with an up-to-date version of REXX (finally).


ooRexx would be a candidate as extending it with external function packages and Rexx command 
handlers can be done with C++ and Java. ooRexx was developed by IBM and has been put into 
open-source by the Rexx Language [1] association after having received the source code by IBM for 
that purpose.


Besides allowing the REXX coding knowledge to be used/applied immediately, a lot of benefitial 
abilities would become available at a finger tip, including among other things the ability to 
quickly create datastructures (classes) with attributes and routines if needed and gaining an 
incredible flexibility (to ease coding problems) with the incorporated message paradigm making it a 
natural language for any message/queue based infrastructures.


Of course, such a port needs to be done by knowledgeable and professional people who have no hidden 
agenda to make it (or any other interpreted language) look bad, au contraire, having the motivation 
to get the best possible port for mainframes and thereby for REXX programmers on the mainframe.


As ooRexx is CMake based this should be quite feasible for such a huge computer company (having so 
many excellently skilled employees) like IBM.


---rony

[1] Rexx Language Association (RexxLA): 

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Re: Load module/program object

[Seymour J Metz]

Well, if he's sure that SSI is all he wants, then, yes, IEHLIST is more 
appropriate, but off the top of my head I don't see a use case, whereas IDR 
records have a more obvious utility.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Mike Kerford-Byrnes [m...@hill-leys.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 5:42 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Load module/program object

Why? That will only list the directory information, while [A|I]MBLIST
LISTIDR will give the IDR data as well.





--

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz



Because the Original Post (see below) asked for the SSI's of load modules.
There was no mention of IDR data.  Furthermore, LISTPDS,FORMAT will give
just a single line of information for each PDS member which includes "the
module names and SSI's for each module".  I am reasonably sure LISTIDR
generates several lines for each member.  I am sure you will advise me if I
am mistaken.



Original Post



Is it possible to list the SSI's of load modules/program objects with a
utility?



In other words, give the load library/program object library name to the

utility, and dump the module names and SSI's for each module.








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Re: IBM's Fall From World Dominance

[Seymour J Metz]

Did I mention that I hate URL rewriters?


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 5:43 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM's Fall From World Dominance

THAT's how that URL came across?!  Maybe it'll survive better if I leave off
the "https":

  search.yahoo.com/?fr=altavista

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I'm not a fatalist.  But even if I were, what could I do about it?  -Emo
Philips */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 05:17

Alta Vista? That's a blast from the past.

I miss the old Deja Vu, before google bought it and destroyed the user
interface.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 11:12 PM

I never got into the habit of using Google.  When I want to do a web search,
I type "altavista" into my browser (or just "al", usually) and it takes me
to
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yah%2F&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cbc1d577e341e404edf1608db1a41d5e4%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132642289642627%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=w%2Bucy9rTborX1ydD2rgf5sBbJ8cBOTELFw%2FBvCyIXn0%3D&reserved=0
oo.com%2F%3Ffr%3Daltavista&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cc8bcfeeda392489
53f2908db1a0b3103%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C6381324075882
98317%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gGQbt2Z8W%2FwbaFmg8Nn9voMxxitm%2B
qv0y7l%2Fch%2B990s%3D&reserved=0.  Sure, I'm a dinosaur.  But I find things
I need, so I see no need to change my habits.

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Re: IBM's Fall From World Dominance

[Bob Bridges]

THAT's how that URL came across?!  Maybe it'll survive better if I leave off
the "https":

  search.yahoo.com/?fr=altavista

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* I'm not a fatalist.  But even if I were, what could I do about it?  -Emo
Philips */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Wednesday, March 1, 2023 05:17

Alta Vista? That's a blast from the past.

I miss the old Deja Vu, before google bought it and destroyed the user
interface.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Bob Bridges
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 11:12 PM

I never got into the habit of using Google.  When I want to do a web search,
I type "altavista" into my browser (or just "al", usually) and it takes me
to
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yah
oo.com%2F%3Ffr%3Daltavista&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cc8bcfeeda392489
53f2908db1a0b3103%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C6381324075882
98317%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik
1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gGQbt2Z8W%2FwbaFmg8Nn9voMxxitm%2B
qv0y7l%2Fch%2B990s%3D&reserved=0.  Sure, I'm a dinosaur.  But I find things
I need, so I see no need to change my habits.

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Load module/program object

[Mike Kerford-Byrnes]

 

 

Why? That will only list the directory information, while [A|I]MBLIST
LISTIDR will give the IDR data as well.

 

 

--

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

 

Because the Original Post (see below) asked for the SSI's of load modules.
There was no mention of IDR data.  Furthermore, LISTPDS,FORMAT will give
just a single line of information for each PDS member which includes "the
module names and SSI's for each module".  I am reasonably sure LISTIDR
generates several lines for each member.  I am sure you will advise me if I
am mistaken.

 

Original Post

 

Is it possible to list the SSI's of load modules/program objects with a
utility?

 

In other words, give the load library/program object library name to the

utility, and dump the module names and SSI's for each module.

 

 

 


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Re: Bob Richards

[Seymour J Metz]

There was an announcement. If you knew him well, could you write a tribute for 
cbttape.org? Thanks.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Rick Troth [tro...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 10:14 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Bob Richards

friends --

Our colleague Bob Richards passed away early this month (Feb).
He has lots of friends on this list, and I know that some already know,
but I had not seen an announcement and I thought the rest should be aware.

I was able to keep in touch by way of his wife Rebecca. She is, of
course, totally devastated.


-- R; <><

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Re: IBM's Fall From World Dominance

[Seymour J Metz]

Alta Vista? That's a blast from the past.

I miss the old Deja Vu, before google bought it and destroyed the user 
interface.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob 
Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 11:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: IBM's Fall From World Dominance

I never got into the habit of using Google.  When I want to do a web search,
I type "altavista" into my browser (or just "al", usually) and it takes me
to 
https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2F%3Ffr%3Daltavista&data=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7Cc8bcfeeda39248953f2908db1a0b3103%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638132407588298317%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=gGQbt2Z8W%2FwbaFmg8Nn9voMxxitm%2Bqv0y7l%2Fch%2B990s%3D&reserved=0.
  Sure, I'm a dinosaur.  But I
find things I need, so I see no need to change my habits.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* to keep on forgiving the bossy mother-in-law, the bullying husband,
the nagging wife, the selfish daughter, the deceitful son -- how can we do
it?  Only, I think, by remembering where we stand, by meaning our words when
we say in our prayers each night, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive
those who trespass against us."  We are offered forgiveness on no other
terms.  -C S Lewis, _On Forgiveness_ */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2023 17:33

The google search engine is really terrible, and I welcome challengers that
are more interested in accurate hits than in product placement.

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