Re: "XYZZY"?

[Brian Westerman]

I hear a bunch of odd ways people pronounce our company name "Syzygy", a lot of 
them put an "R" in there at the middle and some have it start with a "Z", and 
some get more than 3 syllables out of it.  It's always a lot of fun (when your 
really bored) to listen to people mangle the company name. :)  I an imagine 
that XYZZY is even worse.

Brian

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Re: I have

[David Crayford]

On 25/8/2023 2:05 am, Jon Perryman wrote:

  > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM PDT, Steve Beaver wrote:

I'm thinking that a small group of people write a SPC-for linux/unix.


I'm guessing that SPC is Systems Programming C.



He's referring to SPF/PC, an ISPF clone for Windows that is no longer 
supported.



  Unix currently doesn't need SPC because it doesn't have built-in robust 
features like z/OS.


What? Linux doesn't need Systems Programming C because you use the same 
compiler for kernel modules and userspace programs. z/OS is the odd one 
in that language environment isn't suitable for systems programming. So 
we need Metal/C which superceeded SPC years ago.


When you consider that the internet runs mostly on Linux servers and 
that Linux is also used as an embedded OS for routers and other devices 
I would suggest it's reasonably robust. Where I work we tend to have to 
IPL our z/OS LPARs a lot more often then booting on Linux VMs.



For instance, you don't have exit points in the kernel that give you access to 
the system.


Hooking the kernel using ftrace is trivial. There are libraries for it.



Only the kernel developers need to know the restrictions. For instance, when a 
load is not permitted. SPC was developed specifically for z/OS with 
considerations for restrictions you may encounter.



 On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM PDT, Steve Beaver 
<050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
  
  I have had a happy because of the discussion if VI and emacs.


  


I'm thinking that a small group of people write a SPC-for linux/unix.  Now

I will be the first to say I don't know C, C++, C .net or any of those
languages

But I sure can test the product as it begins ALPHA testing

  


Steve

  



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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 18:45:23 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
>
>Well, maybe; I didn't write this stuff but the guy who did was pretty sharp, 
>and couldn't figure out ways around the above. He also noted this:
>
Is he too sharp tobe wrong?

>//****NOTE*** Some references to variable values are in records
>//*   provided as part of SYSIN DD *, and thus cannot be
>//*   filled in using JCL variables (&HLQ et al.). Thus
>//*   in this job, you must replace all references to
>//*   !hlq!, !unit!, and !volser!, not just the single
>//*   SET statement for each.
>
What's he mean by "not just the single SET statement for each."?
It appears as if one SET can't govern multiple applied occurrences.
In what language is that true?  Did it antedate "DD *,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY"?

>Maybe there's a clever way around that? It's referring to things like:
>
Can't it be refactored as:
//  EXPORT SYMLIST=*
//  SET HLQ=MYHLQ
//  SET VOLSER=MYVOL
//  SET UNIT=SYSALLDA
(All sucn might appear in a reusable JCLLIB member.  Then:
>//SYSINDD *,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY
>  DEFINE CLUSTER(   +
>   NAME(&HLQ..GLOBAL.CSI)   +
>   VOLUMES(&VOLSER.)+
>   CYLINDERS(20 10) +
>   FREESPACE(2 2)   +
>   KEYS(24 0)   +
>   RECORDSIZE(24 143)   +
>   SHAREOPTIONS(2 3)+
>   )+
>  DATA (+
>   NAME(&HLQ..GLOBAL.CSI.DATA)  +
>   CONTROLINTERVALSIZE(8192)+

-- 
gil

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Phil,
Maybe the "***NOTE***" was written before the advent of the EXPORT 
Statement.
Had the //SMPCNTL been written with "&" instead of "!...", the 
substitutions could be done via EXPORT, SET and SYMBOLS=JCLONLY.

Here is a possible solution:

// EXPORT SYMLIST=*
// SET HLQ=SYSX
// SET VOLSER=ABC123
// EXEC SMPE
//SYSINDD *,SYNBOLS=JCLONLY
  DEFINE CLUSTER(+
   NAME(&HLQ..GLOBAL.CSI)+
   VOLUMES(&VOLSER)  +
   CYLINDERS(20 10)  +
   FREESPACE(2 2)+
   KEYS(24 0)+
   RECORDSIZE(24 143)+
   SHAREOPTIONS(2 3) +
   ) +
  DATA ( +
   NAME(&HLQ..GLOBAL.CSI.DATA)   +
   CONTROLINTERVALSIZE(8192) +


Regards,
David

On 2023-08-24 18:45, Phil Smith III wrote:

Gil wrote:

I'm ignorant, or at best outdated.  I haven't known of use of symbols by SMP/E.
But are there instances where the same &symbol would need to appear in
one instream data set where it should be evaluated and in another where it
must not, regardless of  //name DD DATA,SYMBOLS=...?  Cite detailed
example, please.

I mean things like the RFPREFIX value on a RECEIVE command, which apparently cannot 
be &whatever but must specify the data set prefix of the RELFILEs. Same for the 
value for a PATH on a DDDEF.


There are ways. however cumbersome, to escape symbol evaluation in
instream data sets.

Well, maybe; I didn't write this stuff but the guy who did was pretty sharp, 
and couldn't figure out ways around the above. He also noted this:
//****NOTE*** Some references to variable values are in records
//*   provided as part of SYSIN DD *, and thus cannot be
//*   filled in using JCL variables (&HLQ et al.). Thus
//*   in this job, you must replace all references to
//*   !hlq!, !unit!, and !volser!, not just the single
//*   SET statement for each.

Maybe there's a clever way around that? It's referring to things like:
//SYSINDD *
   DEFINE CLUSTER(+
NAME(!hlq!.GLOBAL.CSI)+
VOLUMES(!volser!) +
CYLINDERS(20 10)  +
FREESPACE(2 2)+
KEYS(24 0)+
RECORDSIZE(24 143)+
SHAREOPTIONS(2 3) +
) +
   DATA ( +
NAME(!hlq!.GLOBAL.CSI.DATA)   +
CONTROLINTERVALSIZE(8192) +


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Phil Smith III]

Gil wrote:
>I'm ignorant, or at best outdated.  I haven't known of use of symbols by SMP/E.
>But are there instances where the same &symbol would need to appear in
>one instream data set where it should be evaluated and in another where it
>must not, regardless of  //name DD DATA,SYMBOLS=...?  Cite detailed
>example, please.

I mean things like the RFPREFIX value on a RECEIVE command, which apparently 
cannot be &whatever but must specify the data set prefix of the RELFILEs. Same 
for the value for a PATH on a DDDEF.

>There are ways. however cumbersome, to escape symbol evaluation in
>instream data sets.

Well, maybe; I didn't write this stuff but the guy who did was pretty sharp, 
and couldn't figure out ways around the above. He also noted this:
//****NOTE*** Some references to variable values are in records
//*   provided as part of SYSIN DD *, and thus cannot be
//*   filled in using JCL variables (&HLQ et al.). Thus
//*   in this job, you must replace all references to
//*   !hlq!, !unit!, and !volser!, not just the single
//*   SET statement for each.

Maybe there's a clever way around that? It's referring to things like:
//SYSINDD *
  DEFINE CLUSTER(+
   NAME(!hlq!.GLOBAL.CSI)+
   VOLUMES(!volser!) +
   CYLINDERS(20 10)  +
   FREESPACE(2 2)+
   KEYS(24 0)+
   RECORDSIZE(24 143)+
   SHAREOPTIONS(2 3) +
   ) +
  DATA ( +
   NAME(!hlq!.GLOBAL.CSI.DATA)   +
   CONTROLINTERVALSIZE(8192) +


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Re: "XYZZY"?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:21:39 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote:

>It's only just now occurring to me to wonder:  How should "XYZZY" be
>pronounced?  I've always said "KSIZZ-ee", but it occurs to me now that there
>are other possibilities.
>
GIYF.  

-- 
gil

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:02:48 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
>
>>JCL SET?  Where is its behavior inconsistent?
>
>It's not SET that's inconsistent, it's support for it in SMP/E. There are 
>places in SMP/E jobs that can't use symbols. So you can't just have a chunk at 
>the top that job where you fill in values-you have to tour the job and fix it 
>27 times (OK, not 27, that's just a number I made up).
>
I'm ignorant, or at best outdated.  I haven't known of use of symbols by SMP/E.
But are there instances where the same &symbol would need to appear in
one instream data set where it should be evaluated and in another where it
must not, regardless of  //name DD DATA,SYMBOLS=...?  Cite detailed
example, please.

There are ways. however cumbersome, to escape symbol evaluation in
instream data sets.

>When I deliver the product to the customers, I'd like them to be able to just 
>change stuff in ONE place per job. Otherwise they can (AND DO) miss a few, 
>leading to hilarity.
>
Better, to just change stuff in ONE JCLLIB member included in ALL relevant jobs.

-- 
gil

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"XYZZY"?

[Bob Bridges]

It's only just now occurring to me to wonder:  How should "XYZZY" be
pronounced?  I've always said "KSIZZ-ee", but it occurs to me now that there
are other possibilities.

---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The thing that most Europeans simply do not grasp is the size of the US.
>From where I lived in Wiesbaden, Germany, I could drive for six hours in any
direction and be in almost any country in Europe -- excepting Spain, Greece,
and maybe Norway/Sweden depending on ferry connections.  You can drive in
the US for six hours and still be in west Texas.  -Charley Seavey in the
Patrick O'Brian discussion forum
(http://www.wwnorton.com/forums/POB/POBforum.htm), May 2000. */

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Kurt Quackenbush
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 16:47

> Yes.&whatever. As I wrote before, there's way too much "take this job and
find the 27 places that say XYZZY and change them to the right HLQ." instead
of

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Phil,
I beg to differ.
You can use SET at the top of every Job to set ALL variables (as my 
previous email said).

Can you please give me an example of what you're saying.

Another thing ... Do you remember IPOUPDTE? (It was a batch "editor" to 
change all of the HLQ from ABC to DEF. This could be used instead of the 
SET.)


Regards,
David


On 2023-08-24 17:02, Phil Smith III wrote:

Gil wrote:

I introduced "symbols".  Shmuel may have reintroduced it.  Are we thinking of 
the same
JCL SET?  Where is its behavior inconsistent?

It's not SET that's inconsistent, it's support for it in SMP/E. There are 
places in SMP/E jobs that can't use symbols. So you can't just have a chunk at 
the top that job where you fill in values-you have to tour the job and fix it 
27 times (OK, not 27, that's just a number I made up).

When I deliver the product to the customers, I'd like them to be able to just 
change stuff in ONE place per job. Otherwise they can (AND DO) miss a few, 
leading to hilarity.

  

  



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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Phil Smith III]

Gil wrote:
>I introduced "symbols".  Shmuel may have reintroduced it.  Are we thinking of 
>the same

>JCL SET?  Where is its behavior inconsistent?

It's not SET that's inconsistent, it's support for it in SMP/E. There are 
places in SMP/E jobs that can't use symbols. So you can't just have a chunk at 
the top that job where you fill in values-you have to tour the job and fix it 
27 times (OK, not 27, that's just a number I made up).

When I deliver the product to the customers, I'd like them to be able to just 
change stuff in ONE place per job. Otherwise they can (AND DO) miss a few, 
leading to hilarity.

 

 


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> Yes.&whatever. As I wrote before, there's way too much "take this job and 
> find the 27 places that say XYZZY and change them to the right HLQ." instead 
> of "Run it with these variables set as follows". This makes creating and 
> documenting SMP/E installs a lot more work than they should need to be.

Yup, there's often lots of JCL samples to be massaged to perform an SMP/E 
install.  Create CSIs, allocate target and dlib data sets, update DDDEF 
entries, ...  Which is one of the reasons why z/OSMF Software Management and 
Portable Software Instances exist.  Any provider (not just IBM) can create a 
Portable Software Instance containing their software product using z/OSMF and 
distribute it to their clients, and the clients can install the software 
contained in the Portable Software Instance using z/OSMF.  No JCL massaging 
required.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Phil,
You said: "...&HLQ. as literal is never valid in those places, ..."
You've made an incorrect assumption.
If the user codes:
// EXPORT SYMLIST=*
// SET HLQ=SYSX

// EXEC PGM=IDCAMS
//SYSIN DD *,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY
 DEL &HLQ..DATA

This will work.

Regards,
David
On 2023-08-24 15:35, Phil Smith III wrote:

Gil wrote:

How much of the need for symbols might be satisfied nowadays by:
o JCLLIB INCLUDE members containing numerous //   SET statements?

Sure.if // SET worked consistently. That's what I meant by "symbols", which was 
apparently unclear (I thought someone else had used that term, but am perfectly willing to 
believe I confused myself). &HLQ..MCS and the like. Some places in SMP/E jobs you can use 
these, others you cannot. Since &HLQ. as literal is never valid in those places, adding this 
support would be a pure addition, with no downside AFAICT. If IBM were investing in such things, 
which they don't appear to be.


o //SMPCNTL DD DATA,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY?  (And other instream MCS.)

Not sure about this one. Might help.


... reuse available facilities rather than innovating.


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 15:35:13 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:

>Gil wrote:
>>How much of the need for symbols might be satisfied nowadays by:
>>o JCLLIB INCLUDE members containing numerous //   SET statements?
>
>Sure.if // SET worked consistently. That's what I meant by "symbols", which 
>was apparently unclear (I thought someone else had used that term, but am 
>perfectly willing to believe I confused myself). 
>
I introduced "symbols".  Shmuel may have reintroduced it.  Are we thinking of 
the same
JCL SET?  Where is its behavior inconsistent?


> ... &HLQ..MCS and the like. Some places in SMP/E jobs you can use these, 
> others you cannot. Since &HLQ. as literal is never valid in those places, 
> adding this support would be a pure addition, with no downside AFAICT. If IBM 
> were investing in such things, which they don't appear to be.
>
I was assuming it was needed only in JCL statements and instream data sets.
Where else do you see a need for symbol substitution?

>>o //SMPCNTL DD DATA,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY?  (And other instream MCS.)

>Not sure about this one. Might help.
>
>>... reuse available facilities rather than innovating.

-- 
gil

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TS1170

[Radoslaw Skorupka]

FYI IBM released new tape drive.
TS1170 with new media JF gives 50TB (150TB) per cart.
A previously, the only form of mainframe (FICON) attachment is TS7700 
aka VTS.

AFAIK the speed is not increased - it is "only" 400MB/s


--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Tom Brennan]

That's it, thanks!  DIS(WRITE) and make sure you have a backup of your 
PDS's, because they will be junk if the job fails.  That's what I 
remember from the 1980's.


On 8/24/2023 12:36 PM, David Spiegel wrote:

Hi Tom,
"... And what was that option so it didn't read/write each PDS directory 
entry separately and take all day?  ..."

DIS (Directories in Storage)

Please see:
GC28-0673-6 OS/VS System Modification Program (SMP) System Programmer's 
Guide (prycroft6.com.au) 
 


Page 85

Regards,
David


On 2023-08-24 15:16, Tom Brennan wrote:
Wow, you reminded me of SMP4, my first.  Exclude lists!  And what was 
that option so it didn't read/write each PDS directory entry 
separately and take all day?  SMP/E was like a revolution.  Great work 
by the designers.


On 8/24/2023 12:05 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Symbols?

SMP may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than what came before. 
SMP2, SMP3, SMP4 and SMP/E were each an improvement, and SMP/E has 
itself evolved significantly.


Perfect? Of course not. But still essential.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on 
behalf of Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote 
before, the inconsistent support for symbols and the execrable error 
messages lead to tons of wasted time, frustration, and hatred. Yet 
the actual concepts and functioning are pretty cool-how often have 
you wanted to back off a Windows patch? So sad, too bad, you applied 
it, your only option is a rollback to a previous checkpoint, if you 
have one and can find it. Etc.




If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to 
the errors and made them more coherent, several things would happen:


1.  Folks would make fewer errors
2.  When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" 
and fix them, rather than wasting hours

3.  They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to



Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E 
results are (I think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing 
errors seems like it would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors 
ARE so grim, what testing exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks 
for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it doesn't get what it wants, punts 
to a human anyway!



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Re: RPMs for installs and Maint: [WAS SMP/E needed for installs?]

[Rick Troth]

The list of OS and HW pairs ...

    AIX-powerpc (or "ppc")
    AIX-powerpc64 (or "ppc64")
    CYGWIN-i386
    CYGWIN-x86_64
    Darwin-i386
    Darwin-x86_64
    Darwin-arm64
    FreeBSD-i386
    FreeBSD-amd64
    HPUX-parisc
    HPUX-ia64
    Linux-i386 (or i486, i586, i686)
    Linux-x86_64
    Linux-s390
    Linux-s390x
    Linux-alpha
    Linux-arm
    Linux-arm64 (Linux-aarch64)
    Linux-m68k
    Linux-mips
    Linux-mips64
    Linux-ppc
    Linux-ppc64
    Linux-ppc64le
    Linux-sparc
    Linux-sparc64
    Minix-i386
    NetBSD-i386
    NetBSD-amd64
    OpenBSD-i386
    OpenBSD-amd64
    OS390-s390
    OS390-s390x
    SunOS-i386 (Solaris-i386)
    SunOS-x86_64 (Solaris-x86_64 or Solaris-amd64)
    SunOS-sparc (Solaris-sparc)
    SunOS-sparc64 (Solaris-sparc64)
    Windows-x86 (Windows-i386)
    Windows-amd64

This is not an exhaustive list, just the pairs I've worked with. And 
some are old: I haven't touched Linux-alpha in a lllooonnnggg time. I 
also really only use one of the BSDs.


Some of the systems are bi-modal: AIX, Linux-s390x, and OS390 are all 
64-bit systems these days, but usually still support 32-bit "user space" 
programs.


The names, both left and right, are taken from 'uname' output. I 
regularly butt heads with a good friend over names like "powerpc", but 
that's what the systems say about themselves.


-- R; <><


On 8/24/23 15:23, Rick Troth wrote:

This topic has gotten fun.

RPM has an advantage over some installer methods that it includes the 
architecture (e.g., "x86_64" or "s390x").
Sadly, it does *not* include the operating system (e.g., "Linux" or 
"OS/390").

But, yeah, effective and widely used.

Tools like YUM (for RedHat) and ZYPPER (for SUSE) sit on top of RPM. 
(YAST is another layer up from ZYPPER and is SUSE's equivalent to 
AIX's SMIT, but less painful.)
In my experience, they're well done. (YAST is excellent.) You can 
still install packages directly with 'rpm' and either YUM or 
ZYPPER/YAST will figure things out, not break nor crash.


We're skipping the tools used in AIX, Slolaris, HP-UX, and others. 
It's not rocket surgery.


Dependencies are always a problem when you stray outside the 
distributor/vendor collection.
Many times 'rpm' has complained about dependencies/pre-reqs/co-reqs. 
When I force the install, it usually works. Not always. Sometimes I 
have to manually sym-link a shared lib with an older name.


For many years, I've used a point-n-shoot scheme, lately called 
Chicory. (Didn't originally have a name.)
I use this for packages that I build from source. Once a package is 
built for a slightly older (e.g.) RedHat Linux, said packages work 
just fine on a slightly newer SUSE Linux or Debian Linux (of the same 
HW architecture). Not always, but I've learned to isolate 
co-reqs/pre-reqs/dependencies. Static linkage helps. In Chicory space, 
the OS (e.g., "Linux" or "OS/390") and the HW (e.g., "x86_64" or 
"s390x") are always indicated. This developed over more years than I 
should admit. I'll enumerate in a separate note.
But I can't promote Chicory here: it's painfully close to TAR and ZIP 
for delivery. (Then again, those *do* work, and are stilled used today 
by vendors that I've worked for, so mebbe.)
Right now it only handles RSYNC or NFS or removable media. Doesn't 
actually do TAR as such. (Acorse, if someone wants to contribute ...)


-- R; <><


On 8/24/23 14:57, Steve Thompson wrote:
With Linux distros there are a few maint systems. The one I am most 
familiar with is RPM.


To me YAST (the Linux equivalent of SMP/E) handles upgrades and user 
changes (if you know how to do them, I don't because I'm a SU in 
Linux -- Stupid User).


Each product/component has its own main entry and then dependencies. 
You can override them if you dare. If you are a developer you would 
probably know if the override is a good idea.


So you decide to download an ISO. If you have a fat pipe and the 
time, you download a NETWork install ISO.


You fill in all the stuff (Upgrade install or "NEW" INSTALL are the 
primary options). The system loads and boots and if this is a "NEW" 
install, formats and load partitions etc. etc.


Then it gets into all the stuff you said you want installed so it 
pulls down all the related/needed repositories and packages and goes 
to work.


At a certain point it reboots to the system it has built and then 
continues with the applications level stuff.


From time to time you get notified, or you just check it yourself, 
and see if there is maint to be added. Yast handles it.


I thought it was a fairly good replacement for SMP/E for the Linux 
side of things. I can see how it could be used to do z/OS and 
related.


Thoughts, and comments?

Oh, and I still only do programming on IBM type Mainframes.

Steve Thompson

On 8/24/2023 2:34 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
  > 

Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[David Spiegel]

Hi Tom,
"... And what was that option so it didn't read/write each PDS directory 
entry separately and take all day?  ..."

DIS (Directories in Storage)

Please see:
GC28-0673-6 OS/VS System Modification Program (SMP) System Programmer's 
Guide (prycroft6.com.au) 


Page 85

Regards,
David


On 2023-08-24 15:16, Tom Brennan wrote:
Wow, you reminded me of SMP4, my first.  Exclude lists!  And what was 
that option so it didn't read/write each PDS directory entry 
separately and take all day?  SMP/E was like a revolution.  Great work 
by the designers.


On 8/24/2023 12:05 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Symbols?

SMP may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than what came before. 
SMP2, SMP3, SMP4 and SMP/E were each an improvement, and SMP/E has 
itself evolved significantly.


Perfect? Of course not. But still essential.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 




From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on 
behalf of Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]

Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote 
before, the inconsistent support for symbols and the execrable error 
messages lead to tons of wasted time, frustration, and hatred. Yet 
the actual concepts and functioning are pretty cool-how often have 
you wanted to back off a Windows patch? So sad, too bad, you applied 
it, your only option is a rollback to a previous checkpoint, if you 
have one and can find it. Etc.




If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to 
the errors and made them more coherent, several things would happen:


1.  Folks would make fewer errors
2.  When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" 
and fix them, rather than wasting hours

3.  They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to



Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E 
results are (I think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing 
errors seems like it would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors 
ARE so grim, what testing exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks 
for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it doesn't get what it wants, punts 
to a human anyway!



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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Phil Smith III]

Gil wrote:
>How much of the need for symbols might be satisfied nowadays by:
>o JCLLIB INCLUDE members containing numerous //   SET statements?

Sure.if // SET worked consistently. That's what I meant by "symbols", which was 
apparently unclear (I thought someone else had used that term, but am perfectly 
willing to believe I confused myself). &HLQ..MCS and the like. Some places in 
SMP/E jobs you can use these, others you cannot. Since &HLQ. as literal is 
never valid in those places, adding this support would be a pure addition, with 
no downside AFAICT. If IBM were investing in such things, which they don't 
appear to be.

>o //SMPCNTL DD DATA,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY?  (And other instream MCS.)
Not sure about this one. Might help.

>... reuse available facilities rather than innovating.


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Phil Smith III]

Shmuel wrote, in part:
>Symbols?

Yes.&whatever. As I wrote before, there's way too much "take this job and find 
the 27 places that say XYZZY and change them to the right HLQ." instead of "Run 
it with these variables set as follows". This makes creating and documenting 
SMP/E installs a lot more work than they should need to be.

Consider installing products on other operating systems: you run the installer, 
and either it asks where you want stuff or it goes in the current directory (or 
subdirectories thereof). With SMP/E, you have to tell it many, many times, and 
(in my experience, which is admittedly quite limited) in subtly different ways: 
some places you need one level of HLQ and others you need more.


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 14:57:53 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:

>I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote before, the 
>inconsistent support for symbols
>
How much of the need for symbols might be satisfied nowadays by:
o JCLLIB INCLUDE members containing numerous //   SET statements?
o //SMPCNTL DD DATA,SYMBOLS=JCLONLY?  (And other instream MCS.)

... reuse available facilities rather than innovating.

>... and the execrable error messages lead to tons of wasted time, 
> frustration, and hatred. Yet the actual concepts and functioning are pretty 
> cool-how often have you wanted to back off a Windows patch? So sad, too bad, 
> you applied it, your only option is a rollback to a previous checkpoint, if 
> you have one and can find it. Etc.
>
>If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to the errors 
>and made them more coherent, several things would happen:
>
>1. Folks would make fewer errors
>2. When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" and fix 
>them, rather than wasting hours
>3. They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to
>
>Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E results are (I 
>think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing errors seems like it 
>would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors ARE so grim, what testing 
>exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it 
>doesn't get what it wants, punts to a human anyway!

-- 
gil

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Re: RPMs for installs and Maint: [WAS SMP/E needed for installs?]

[Rick Troth]

This topic has gotten fun.

RPM has an advantage over some installer methods that it includes the 
architecture (e.g., "x86_64" or "s390x").
Sadly, it does *not* include the operating system (e.g., "Linux" or 
"OS/390").

But, yeah, effective and widely used.

Tools like YUM (for RedHat) and ZYPPER (for SUSE) sit on top of RPM. 
(YAST is another layer up from ZYPPER and is SUSE's equivalent to AIX's 
SMIT, but less painful.)
In my experience, they're well done. (YAST is excellent.) You can still 
install packages directly with 'rpm' and either YUM or ZYPPER/YAST will 
figure things out, not break nor crash.


We're skipping the tools used in AIX, Slolaris, HP-UX, and others. It's 
not rocket surgery.


Dependencies are always a problem when you stray outside the 
distributor/vendor collection.
Many times 'rpm' has complained about dependencies/pre-reqs/co-reqs. 
When I force the install, it usually works. Not always. Sometimes I have 
to manually sym-link a shared lib with an older name.


For many years, I've used a point-n-shoot scheme, lately called Chicory. 
(Didn't originally have a name.)
I use this for packages that I build from source. Once a package is 
built for a slightly older (e.g.) RedHat Linux, said packages work just 
fine on a slightly newer SUSE Linux or Debian Linux (of the same HW 
architecture). Not always, but I've learned to isolate 
co-reqs/pre-reqs/dependencies. Static linkage helps. In Chicory space, 
the OS (e.g., "Linux" or "OS/390") and the HW (e.g., "x86_64" or 
"s390x") are always indicated. This developed over more years than I 
should admit. I'll enumerate in a separate note.
But I can't promote Chicory here: it's painfully close to TAR and ZIP 
for delivery. (Then again, those *do* work, and are stilled used today 
by vendors that I've worked for, so mebbe.)
Right now it only handles RSYNC or NFS or removable media. Doesn't 
actually do TAR as such. (Acorse, if someone wants to contribute ...)


-- R; <><


On 8/24/23 14:57, Steve Thompson wrote:
With Linux distros there are a few maint systems. The one I am most 
familiar with is RPM.


To me YAST (the Linux equivalent of SMP/E) handles upgrades and user 
changes (if you know how to do them, I don't because I'm a SU in Linux 
-- Stupid User).


Each product/component has its own main entry and then dependencies. 
You can override them if you dare. If you are a developer you would 
probably know if the override is a good idea.


So you decide to download an ISO. If you have a fat pipe and the time, 
you download a NETWork install ISO.


You fill in all the stuff (Upgrade install or "NEW" INSTALL are the 
primary options). The system loads and boots and if this is a "NEW" 
install, formats and load partitions etc. etc.


Then it gets into all the stuff you said you want installed so it 
pulls down all the related/needed repositories and packages and goes 
to work.


At a certain point it reboots to the system it has built and then 
continues with the applications level stuff.


From time to time you get notified, or you just check it yourself, and 
see if there is maint to be added. Yast handles it.


I thought it was a fairly good replacement for SMP/E for the Linux 
side of things. I can see how it could be used to do z/OS and 
related.


Thoughts, and comments?

Oh, and I still only do programming on IBM type Mainframes.

Steve Thompson

On 8/24/2023 2:34 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
  > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:

But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).


I'm guessing that IBM is still on a 2 year release cycle and they 
still have a custom-built offering so you're not dealing with a lot 
of tapes and files. With as many products that IBM deals with, 
packaging would be a nightmare. IBM's RHEL and other Linux distros 
exists solely to simplify the process and they don't deal with 
anywhere near the number of IBM z/OS products. SMP/e is a good 
compromise that guarantees everything was performed correctly for 
your needs. OEM vendors can easily provide choices because they don't 
deal with the magnitude of IBM.




 On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:

    ITSchak,
But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  We 
should

be able to download the image which has been tested by IBM Consolidated
Service Test in POK.
Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you 
need

to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
Colin

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 17:08, ITschak Mugzach  
wrote:



Kurt,

I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM 
have
SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump 
(or can

be).

ITschak


ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous 
Monitoring

for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *

Re: RPMs for installs and Maint: [WAS SMP/E needed for installs?]

[Seymour J Metz]

YAST and SMP are very different animals, but they fit similar niches, for 
essentially the same reasons. One major difference is that there is no 
equivalent to RECEIVE; YAST and zypper install packages directly from the 
repositories. I assume that apt also fits that niche, but there's probably 
someone here that can give a definitive answer.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Thompson [ste...@wkyr.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: RPMs for installs and Maint: [WAS SMP/E needed for installs?]

With Linux distros there are a few maint systems. The one I am
most familiar with is RPM.

To me YAST (the Linux equivalent of SMP/E) handles upgrades and
user changes (if you know how to do them, I don't because I'm a
SU in Linux -- Stupid User).

Each product/component has its own main entry and then
dependencies. You can override them if you dare. If you are a
developer you would probably know if the override is a good idea.

So you decide to download an ISO. If you have a fat pipe and the
time, you download a NETWork install ISO.

You fill in all the stuff (Upgrade install or "NEW" INSTALL are
the primary options). The system loads and boots and if this is a
"NEW" install, formats and load partitions etc. etc.

Then it gets into all the stuff you said you want installed so it
pulls down all the related/needed repositories and packages and
goes to work.

At a certain point it reboots to the system it has built and then
continues with the applications level stuff.

 From time to time you get notified, or you just check it
yourself, and see if there is maint to be added. Yast handles
it.

I thought it was a fairly good replacement for SMP/E for the
Linux side of things. I can see how it could be used to do z/OS
and related.

Thoughts, and comments?

Oh, and I still only do programming on IBM type Mainframes.

Steve Thompson

On 8/24/2023 2:34 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:
>   > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
>  wrote:
>> But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).
>
> I'm guessing that IBM is still on a 2 year release cycle and they still have 
> a custom-built offering so you're not dealing with a lot of tapes and files. 
> With as many products that IBM deals with, packaging would be a nightmare. 
> IBM's RHEL and other Linux distros exists solely to simplify the process and 
> they don't deal with anywhere near the number of IBM z/OS products. SMP/e is 
> a good compromise that guarantees everything was performed correctly for your 
> needs. OEM vendors can easily provide choices because they don't deal with 
> the magnitude of IBM.
>
>
>
>  On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
>  wrote:
>
>   ITSchak,
> But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  We should
> be able to download the image which has been tested by IBM Consolidated
> Service Test in POK.
> Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you need
> to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
> Colin
>
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 17:08, ITschak Mugzach  wrote:
>
>> Kurt,
>>
>> I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
>> management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM have
>> SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump (or can
>> be).
>>
>> ITschak
>>
>>
>> ITschak Mugzach
>> *|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring
>> for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:48 PM Kurt Quackenbush  wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an
>>> alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software
>>> Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software
>>> whether it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of
>> the
>>> software on the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E
>>> artifacts like CSIs so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course
>> choose
>>> to ignore the SMP/E artifacts and just repeat the process to install an
>>> updated Portable Software Instance in 3 months as you suggest.
>>>
>>> Kurt Quackenbush
>>> IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com
>>>
>>> Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
>>> Of Colin Paice
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?
>>>
>>> This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40
>> years
>>> ago!  The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
>>> download the files and configu

Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Tom Brennan]

Wow, you reminded me of SMP4, my first.  Exclude lists!  And what was 
that option so it didn't read/write each PDS directory entry separately 
and take all day?  SMP/E was like a revolution.  Great work by the 
designers.


On 8/24/2023 12:05 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

Symbols?

SMP may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than what came before. SMP2, 
SMP3, SMP4 and SMP/E were each an improvement, and SMP/E has itself evolved 
significantly.

Perfect? Of course not. But still essential.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote before, the 
inconsistent support for symbols and the execrable error messages lead to tons 
of wasted time, frustration, and hatred. Yet the actual concepts and 
functioning are pretty cool-how often have you wanted to back off a Windows 
patch? So sad, too bad, you applied it, your only option is a rollback to a 
previous checkpoint, if you have one and can find it. Etc.



If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to the errors 
and made them more coherent, several things would happen:

1.  Folks would make fewer errors
2.  When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" and fix 
them, rather than wasting hours
3.  They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to



Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E results are (I 
think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing errors seems like it 
would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors ARE so grim, what testing 
exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it 
doesn't get what it wants, punts to a human anyway!


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Seymour J Metz]

Symbols?

SMP may not be perfect, but it's a lot better than what came before. SMP2, 
SMP3, SMP4 and SMP/E were each an improvement, and SMP/E has itself evolved 
significantly.

Perfect? Of course not. But still essential.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Phil Smith III [li...@akphs.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote before, the 
inconsistent support for symbols and the execrable error messages lead to tons 
of wasted time, frustration, and hatred. Yet the actual concepts and 
functioning are pretty cool-how often have you wanted to back off a Windows 
patch? So sad, too bad, you applied it, your only option is a rollback to a 
previous checkpoint, if you have one and can find it. Etc.



If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to the errors 
and made them more coherent, several things would happen:

1.  Folks would make fewer errors
2.  When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" and fix 
them, rather than wasting hours
3.  They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to



Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E results are (I 
think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing errors seems like it 
would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors ARE so grim, what testing 
exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it 
doesn't get what it wants, punts to a human anyway!


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Phil Smith III]

I don't think SMP/E is evil, I think it's unfinished. As I wrote before, the 
inconsistent support for symbols and the execrable error messages lead to tons 
of wasted time, frustration, and hatred. Yet the actual concepts and 
functioning are pretty cool-how often have you wanted to back off a Windows 
patch? So sad, too bad, you applied it, your only option is a rollback to a 
previous checkpoint, if you have one and can find it. Etc.

 

If it supported symbols consistently and someone paid attention to the errors 
and made them more coherent, several things would happen:

1.  Folks would make fewer errors
2.  When they do make errors, they'd be able to say "Oh, right" and fix 
them, rather than wasting hours
3.  They wouldn't hate SMP/E as so many seem to

 

Since, aside from vendors like us with automated testing, SMP/E results are (I 
think?) unlikely to be subject to automation, changing errors seems like it 
would be pretty safe. Actually, since the errors ARE so grim, what testing 
exists is, I expect, like ours: it looks for RC=0 (or 4, sometimes) and if it 
doesn't get what it wants, punts to a human anyway!


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RPMs for installs and Maint: [WAS SMP/E needed for installs?]

[Steve Thompson]

With Linux distros there are a few maint systems. The one I am 
most familiar with is RPM.


To me YAST (the Linux equivalent of SMP/E) handles upgrades and 
user changes (if you know how to do them, I don't because I'm a 
SU in Linux -- Stupid User).


Each product/component has its own main entry and then 
dependencies. You can override them if you dare. If you are a 
developer you would probably know if the override is a good idea.


So you decide to download an ISO. If you have a fat pipe and the 
time, you download a NETWork install ISO.


You fill in all the stuff (Upgrade install or "NEW" INSTALL are 
the primary options). The system loads and boots and if this is a 
"NEW" install, formats and load partitions etc. etc.


Then it gets into all the stuff you said you want installed so it 
pulls down all the related/needed repositories and packages and 
goes to work.


At a certain point it reboots to the system it has built and then 
continues with the applications level stuff.


From time to time you get notified, or you just check it 
yourself, and see if there is maint to be added. Yast handles 
it.


I thought it was a fairly good replacement for SMP/E for the 
Linux side of things. I can see how it could be used to do z/OS 
and related.


Thoughts, and comments?

Oh, and I still only do programming on IBM type Mainframes.

Steve Thompson

On 8/24/2023 2:34 PM, Jon Perryman wrote:

  > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:

But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).


I'm guessing that IBM is still on a 2 year release cycle and they still have a 
custom-built offering so you're not dealing with a lot of tapes and files. With 
as many products that IBM deals with, packaging would be a nightmare. IBM's 
RHEL and other Linux distros exists solely to simplify the process and they 
don't deal with anywhere near the number of IBM z/OS products. SMP/e is a good 
compromise that guarantees everything was performed correctly for your needs. 
OEM vendors can easily provide choices because they don't deal with the 
magnitude of IBM.



 On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:
  
  ITSchak,

But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  We should
be able to download the image which has been tested by IBM Consolidated
Service Test in POK.
Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you need
to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
Colin

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 17:08, ITschak Mugzach  wrote:


Kurt,

I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM have
SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump (or can
be).

ITschak


ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring
for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *




On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:48 PM Kurt Quackenbush  wrote:


Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an
alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software
Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software
whether it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of

the

software on the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E
artifacts like CSIs so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course

choose

to ignore the SMP/E artifacts and just repeat the process to install an
updated Portable Software Instance in 3 months as you suggest.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Colin Paice
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?

This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40

years

ago!  The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
several jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand,

and

get working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.  If you want to install a fix, then

apply

it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
experience retire!

Colin



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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 19:06:17 +0100, Colin Paice  wrote:
>...
>Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you need
>to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
>
This leads to personnel with little recent SMP/E practice performing emergency 
maintenance.

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 >  wrote:
> But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  


I'm guessing that IBM is still on a 2 year release cycle and they still have a 
custom-built offering so you're not dealing with a lot of tapes and files. With 
as many products that IBM deals with, packaging would be a nightmare. IBM's 
RHEL and other Linux distros exists solely to simplify the process and they 
don't deal with anywhere near the number of IBM z/OS products. SMP/e is a good 
compromise that guarantees everything was performed correctly for your needs. 
OEM vendors can easily provide choices because they don't deal with the 
magnitude of IBM.



On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 11:06:43 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:  
 
 ITSchak,
But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  We should
be able to download the image which has been tested by IBM Consolidated
Service Test in POK.
Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you need
to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
Colin

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 17:08, ITschak Mugzach  wrote:

> Kurt,
>
> I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
> management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM have
> SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump (or can
> be).
>
> ITschak
>
>
> ITschak Mugzach
> *|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring
> for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:48 PM Kurt Quackenbush  wrote:
>
> > Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an
> > alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software
> > Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software
> > whether it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of
> the
> > software on the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E
> > artifacts like CSIs so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course
> choose
> > to ignore the SMP/E artifacts and just repeat the process to install an
> > updated Portable Software Instance in 3 months as you suggest.
> >
> > Kurt Quackenbush
> > IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com
> >
> > Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Colin Paice
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?
> >
> > This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40
> years
> > ago!  The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
> > download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
> > several jobs.
> > For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand,
> and
> > get working properly.
> >
> > Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
> > example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
> > I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
> > matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
> > I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
> > install the SMP/E stuff as well.  If you want to install a fix, then
> apply
> > it to the SMP/E libraries.
> > In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.
> >
> > I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
> > experience retire!
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > --
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> email
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> >
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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Colin Paice]

ITSchak,
But this fix management would be done by IBM (or product owner).  We should
be able to download the image which has been tested by IBM Consolidated
Service Test in POK.
Only if you need >additional< fixes before the next download - do you need
to do any SMP/E work. It would still be there if you need it.
Colin

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 at 17:08, ITschak Mugzach  wrote:

> Kurt,
>
> I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
> management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM have
> SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump (or can
> be).
>
> ITschak
>
>
> ITschak Mugzach
> *|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring
> for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:48 PM Kurt Quackenbush  wrote:
>
> > Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an
> > alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software
> > Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software
> > whether it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of
> the
> > software on the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E
> > artifacts like CSIs so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course
> choose
> > to ignore the SMP/E artifacts and just repeat the process to install an
> > updated Portable Software Instance in 3 months as you suggest.
> >
> > Kurt Quackenbush
> > IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com
> >
> > Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Colin Paice
> > Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?
> >
> > This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40
> years
> > ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
> > download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
> > several jobs.
> > For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand,
> and
> > get working properly.
> >
> > Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
> > example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
> > I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
> > matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
> > I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
> > install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then
> apply
> > it to the SMP/E libraries.
> > In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.
> >
> > I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
> > experience retire!
> >
> > Colin
> >
> > --
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> email
> > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
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Re: I have

[Jon Perryman]

 > On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM PDT, Steve Beaver wrote:
> I'm thinking that a small group of people write a SPC-for linux/unix.


I'm guessing that SPC is Systems Programming C. Unix currently doesn't need SPC 
because it doesn't have built-in robust features like z/OS. For instance, you 
don't have exit points in the kernel that give you access to the system. Only 
the kernel developers need to know the restrictions. For instance, when a load 
is not permitted. SPC was developed specifically for z/OS with considerations 
for restrictions you may encounter.



On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 10:46:49 AM PDT, Steve Beaver 
<050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  
 
 I have had a happy because of the discussion if VI and emacs.

 

I'm thinking that a small group of people write a SPC-for linux/unix.  Now

I will be the first to say I don't know C, C++, C .net or any of those
languages

But I sure can test the product as it begins ALPHA testing

 

Steve

 


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Steve Thompson]

At Boole and Babbage, when I worked there in the early '90s, 
AutoOperator came on two tapes and you installed the first tape 
and it was ready to run. The second tape was the SMPE files 
(copied from the SMPE environment where the first tape was made).


So the install of the first tape had REXX|CLIST support for this 
so one could start a POC, or do it for real and run.


Then when you had time, you could install the second tape which 
was a copy of the SMPE environment at B&B again with CLIST and 
REXX to help you do that for your environment.


We sent out APARs and PTF (just like IBM did back then) and a 
type of PUT|Cum tapes.


If you wanted you could just re-order the product every six 
months and drop in the executables and run.


I've offered different entities where I've worked as a developer 
to set this up but they declined.


For simple installs, this is fairly easy to do. Add in where one 
has to do Usermods and it becomes a bit difficult.


Add in a product that has mutually exclusive components and it 
becomes difficult.


Steve Thompson (got delayed in posting this, so I know it is a 
bit behind, but history sometimes is useful)





On 8/24/2023 10:37 AM, Colin Paice wrote:

This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
several jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and
get working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then apply
it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
experience retire!

Colin

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Jon Perryman]

 On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 07:37:46 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:

> I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
> experience retire!

This is laughable because for the sysprog, the process can't be simpler. You 
were given a set of jobs to run and you changed nothing related to SMP/e. You 
entered information specific to your environment requirements (e.g DSN, DSN 
prefix, volser/unit and other environment specific information). When each job 
completed, you verified the completion code. Name 1 piece of SMP/e knowledge 
you as a sysprog used.

Unix install is far worse (e.g. apt install) because it's simple until it's 
not. Did you remember to pipe the log to a file in case of error (SMPLOG 
equivalent)? Too bad about utilities output not being fully available (SMP job 
output files). Did you think I don't need a backup because I'm only affecting 1 
app (SMP/e restore). Did you install on a shared readonly disk causing havoc?

Every question you answered in those SMP/e jobs was not about SMP/e. Instead, 
they get you to consider all the z/OS what if's and consider your installation 
strategy. For instance, you are running in a live sysplex and you don't want to 
install against live libraries and cause havoc.

Every reputable company requires important products to be installed using 
SMP/e. Unlike Unix, they don't want complete product replacement every time a 
critical bug is discovered. It's much safer to install 1 fix specific to the 
error they need fixed which can be quickly and easily tested. They want to see 
hold data that warns them about potential problems and actions they must take. 
Do I need to list more?

The heavy lifting for SMP/e lies with product developers. What are you 
proposing be changed?

On Thursday, August 24, 2023 at 07:37:46 AM PDT, Colin Paice 
 wrote:  
 
 This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
ago!  The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
several jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and
get working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.  If you want to install a fix, then apply
it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
experience retire!

Colin

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I have

[Steve Beaver]

I have had a happy because of the discussion if VI and emacs.

 

I'm thinking that a small group of people write a SPC-for linux/unix.  Now

I will be the first to say I don't know C, C++, C .net or any of those
languages

But I sure can test the product as it begins ALPHA testing

 

Steve

 


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Re: Creating an SMP install tape

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2023 10:07:13 -0400, Phil Smith III  wrote:
>>...
>>Load modules and macros were in PDS form. It wasn't "difficult".
>
>Glad you found it thus. We found it tedious, with many un- or poorly 
>documented wrinkles, and the error messages are horrendous. While we've done 
>it for over a decade, and customers with SMP/E experience have no problem with 
>it, customers with less experience consistently need help navigating an 
>install. I think one of the worst aspects is the inconsistent support for 
>symbols, ...
>
SMP/E sorely lacks support for symbols.  This feels like the gem of an Idea.

>so sometimes you can just carefully document "Set this symbol to the HLQ of." 
>and other times it's "Find all the occurrences of XYZZY and change it to."
>
I wrote a single Edit macro for this, to be modified and applied to every
installation JCL member, which I supplied with the various XYZZY to
be replaced.  (I never mastered file tailoring.)  My development testing
process was:
3.17->View->[macro]->Submit->Cancel
Modify macro; rinse; repeat.

I never heard customer feedback, but I fear our support process insulated
programmers from customers.

One tester I talked to disdained my macro and made all the changes
"by hand".

All testers were terrified of 3.17 and did OGETX to a  PDS and worked
with that.

>Just feels half-baked, like they got it working and never went back and 
>finished it. But it does work.

-- 
gil

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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[ITschak Mugzach]

Kurt,

I think the power of SMP/E is not the initial install, but the fix
management (ptf chain management). Actually many deliveries from IBM have
SMP/E already populated and technically this is a kind of DSS dump (or can
be).

ITschak


ITschak Mugzach
*|** IronSphere Platform* *|* *Information Security Continuous Monitoring
for z/OS, x/Linux & IBM I **| z/VM coming soon  *




On Thu, Aug 24, 2023 at 6:48 PM Kurt Quackenbush  wrote:

> Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an
> alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software
> Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software
> whether it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of the
> software on the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E
> artifacts like CSIs so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course choose
> to ignore the SMP/E artifacts and just repeat the process to install an
> updated Portable Software Instance in 3 months as you suggest.
>
> Kurt Quackenbush
> IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com
>
> Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Colin Paice
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?
>
> This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
> ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
> download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
> several jobs.
> For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and
> get working properly.
>
> Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
> example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
> I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
> matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
> I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
> install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then apply
> it to the SMP/E libraries.
> In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.
>
> I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
> experience retire!
>
> Colin
>
> --
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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Kurt Quackenbush]

Yes, thanks for asking, we have thought about an alternative.  And an 
alternative exists in z/OSMF Software Management and Portable Software 
Instances.  In this form you can package, deliver, and install software whether 
it is SMP/E managed or not.  If it is SMP/E managed, as much of the software on 
the z/OS platform is, then the package includes the SMP/E artifacts like CSIs 
so you can install PTF fixes.  You can of course choose to ignore the SMP/E 
artifacts and just repeat the process to install an updated Portable Software 
Instance in 3 months as you suggest.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Colin Paice
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Is SMP/E needed for installs?

This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in several 
jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and get 
working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For example 
many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a matching 
dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then apply
it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and 
experience retire!

Colin

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Re: Updating IEEMB846

[Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw]

I placed a modified copy in a later library in the linklist. Then I renamed
the version in SYS1.LINKLIB. LLA REFRESH was done. So I expected it to be
found. But it behaved as if it did not find it. No SMF 32s were being logged
at all. 
Lennie

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of
Peter Relson
Sent: 24 August 2023 15:46
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Updating IEEMB846


it appears that if IEEMB846 is placed in a library other than SYS1.LINKLIB,
then it is not found.


That should not be a surprise. The module is LOADed. Normal search rules
apply.
SYS1.LINKLIB is the first data set in the LNKLST concatenation unless you
have used the SYSLIB LINKLIB statement of PROGxx, so a copy in a "later"
data set will not be found. If you put your copy of the module in LPA
(dynamic or other) it will be the one found.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Updating IEEMB846

[Peter Relson]

it appears that if IEEMB846 is placed in a library other than SYS1.LINKLIB, 
then it is not found.


That should not be a surprise. The module is LOADed. Normal search rules apply.
SYS1.LINKLIB is the first data set in the LNKLST concatenation unless you have 
used the SYSLIB LINKLIB statement of PROGxx, so a copy in a "later" data set 
will not be found. If you put your copy of the module in LPA (dynamic or other) 
it will be the one found.

Peter Relson
z/OS Core Technology Design


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Re: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Seymour J Metz]

Back in the "good old days" , there were alternative ways of shipping 
products and service. It was a nightmare, and SMP made things a lot more 
robust. Asking the z/OS community to abandon SMP is equivalent to asking the 
Linux community to abandon SCCS, CVS, svn and git. By all means look for ways 
to make the process smoother, but don't abandon the dependency checking.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Colin Paice [colinpai...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 10:37 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Is SMP/E needed for installs?

This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
several jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and
get working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then apply
it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
experience retire!

Colin

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Is SMP/E needed for installs?

[Colin Paice]

This week, I did my first SMP/E install since my previous one over 40 years
ago!   The process hasn't changed much.  It took me about half a day to
download the files and configure the jobs - making the same changes in
several jobs.
For people new to z/OS "installation" is hard to get into, understand, and
get working properly.

Has anyone thought about alternative ways of shipping products?  For
example many products are now Web downloads, which you just restore.
I would like to see a DFDSS dump of the CST level of all objects and a
matching dump of the  SMP/E datasets of the product.
I can just restore the product stuff,and not the SMP/E stuff, or I can
install the SMP/E stuff as well.   If you want to install a fix, then apply
it to the SMP/E libraries.
In 3 months time,  repeat the whole process.

I think we have to do something before all those with the knowledge and
experience retire!

Colin

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Re: Creating an SMP install tape

[Phil Smith III]

Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
>I used to package a software product I maintained. It was a simple
>template. We built the SMPE zones, defined the FMID and APPLY / ACCEPT.
>Load modules and macros were in PDS form. It wasn't "difficult".

Glad you found it thus. We found it tedious, with many un- or poorly documented 
wrinkles, and the error messages are horrendous. While we've done it for over a 
decade, and customers with SMP/E experience have no problem with it, customers 
with less experience consistently need help navigating an install. I think one 
of the worst aspects is the inconsistent support for symbols, so sometimes you 
can just carefully document "Set this symbol to the HLQ of." and other times 
it's "Find all the occurrences of XYZZY and change it to."

Just feels half-baked, like they got it working and never went back and 
finished it. But it does work.


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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

[Seymour J Metz]

Whoosh!  You're still missing the point that what matters is the other end of 
the connection, and whether the user-facing side can handle character events 
determines whether vi can respond to characters in (near) real time. SSH 
carries traffic for other protocols, e.g., SFTP.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 5:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

> On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other 
> end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, 
> with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 
> profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time.

I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet 
out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is 
still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can 
now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff.

>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
>
> On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on 
>> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on 
>> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is 
>> in the details.
>>
> It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only
> involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing
> anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on
> z/OS.
>
>
>> --
>> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
>> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
>> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
>>
>>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>>>
 Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros
>>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in
>> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a 
>> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application.
>>
>>
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

[Seymour J Metz]

I've compiled post-install scripts for ArcaOS and Linux that pull a lot from 
repositories; except for having to add a line to the scripts, I don't mentally 
distinguish "on the DVD" from "in the standard repositories." There's still 
stuff that isn't in the openSUSE LEAP repositories, but most of what I want is. 
There's a lot that I want to learn when I get a round tuit.

On the language front I'll probably test drive an IDE each time I learn a new 
language. Right now I'm thinking of

Java
Python
Ruby

but there are others that might be fun to play with.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 7:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)

On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 10:44:08AM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Maybe people say so because they expected something else.
>
> "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip
> came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.

I sensed humor there, but, well... More like sarcasm, rather.

> > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs
>
> Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs
> either in the base or in its repositories?

Probably no such distro, if popular belongs to one of {Debian, Gentoo,
Slackware, SUSE, RedHat}, or one of their close derivatives.

In case of smaller distro - GRML is one. Nowadays "smaller" means
"fits into CD", or 1GB pendrive. They include ed, forgot about cal. No
emacs, but plenty of interpreters, two gcc's, rudimentary x11 and
browser, antivirus, some other tools. GRML is rescue-cd, I use it to
test if my laptops have what I paid for, and for, er, rescue.

OTOH, I am typing this on ParrotOS (Debian derivative, oriented
towards security, pentest and forensics tasks - I am parroting from
their homepage and I really have no idea what it is) and AFAIR the
default install did not have ed... it is in repos, just not included
in installation image, while umpty-megabytes of visual environment
was, and some "codium" - many megs of dead weight (by which I mean, it
must be useful for somebody else) - was included by default during
postinstall phase... I installed ed because I wanted to experiment a
bit. No problem. I deinstalled (vs)codium (some kind of visual studio
cousin) because I do not want to experiment with this. No problem... I
just noticed that times have changed - some years ago /bin/ed and
/usr/bin/cal were both small and expected to be there (60 kbytes for
ed package and about 1mb for gcal, a modern cal rewrite). Now folks
have no place for this. I remember I had to install few more small
packages to make my parrot usable. Well, good to have it in repos,
good to know what I need.

As of emacs in ParrotOS, they had it in repos, but not as decent as I
wanted. Binaries+compiled ELisp in one package and sources for ELisp
files in another, but I have not found (so far) a package containing
info files with manuals. So I downloaded sources, compiled with
minimal options and installed in some non-relevant dir, this brought
me info files there, and entered INFOPATH variable with some dir into
a script I use to start emacs (I use scripts to start various
complicated programs, I find it less complicated than click-and-pray).

As you can see, everything was in there but it still was fun to make
any use of it :-).

--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

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IntelliJ Rexx plugin (Re: JAVA IDE

[Rony G. Flatscher]

IntelliJ users may gain Rexx syntax highlighting and syntax checking if installing the ooRexxPlugin 
for IntelliJ which a former student created and has been maintaining since. It covers Rexx, ooRexx 
5.0 and Executor. He was kind enough to add support for the mainframe Rexx programs characters that 
got removed for TRL2.


Here a presentation from this year's International Rexx symposium about IntelliJ with the ooRexx 
plugin and its included Rexx documentation support that can be exploited for any Rexx program: 
. It also demonstrates its 
auot-completion feature which can be supplemented with one own's names.


Here the plugin location with the readme for installation: 
.


---rony


On 23.08.2023 21:33, David Crayford wrote:

100% agree with Kirk. IntelliJ IDEA is head and shoulders the best Java IDE. 
I’ve mostly been coding in Java for the last few years and use the Ultimate 
edition which is quite expensive but worth every penny. We also use the 
Jetbrains CLion IDE for C/C++ and Python. I’ve recently been playing with VS 
Code for doing some Python presentations and it’s an excellent editor.


On 24 Aug 2023, at 1:11 am, Kirk Wolf  wrote:

BTW:  ibm-main is probably the worst place to ask :-)

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies

To answer you question, for a real Java IDE, Java programmers generally believe 
that IntelliJ is the best and that's hard to argue with.I've used Eclipse 
for a really long time. If you are doing z/OS Java development, it's 
generally best to develop on your workstation and just deploy compiled jars to 
z/OS.   We use some enhanced Ant SSH/SFTP tasks that we developed to target 
z/OS from the IDE (for C/C++, assembler, and Java).
https://coztoolkit.com/community/antssh.html


On Wed, Aug 23, 2023, at 11:35 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

The question "What is the best foo?" is guarantied to start a religious war, 
whether foo be an editor, an IDE, a language, an OS or a shell. Try a few and see what 
you like.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Steve Beaver [050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 11:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: JAVA IDE

I can believe that I'm asking this question.





What is the best/most friendly JAVA IDE?





Steve



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