Has anyone
Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus Regards, Steve -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my family for no extra charge. In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the “Professional” version because it included Access. A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for “business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be mis-interpreting what I read. HTH Peter From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Has anyone Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus Regards, Steve -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I bought a second hand license at Gamers Outlet for very little UKpounds. But it has not broken down😊. Lennie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: 15 August 2023 16:19 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Has anyone Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus Regards, Steve -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate. From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Farley, Peter <031df298a9da-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:32 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my family for no extra charge. In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the “Professional” version because it included Access. A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for “business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be mis-interpreting what I read. HTH Peter From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Has anyone Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus Regards, Steve -- This message and any attachments are intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If the reader of the message is not the intended recipient or an authorized representative of the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any attachments from your system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I also use Office 365 … best bet for families with kids that need access as well. Side note, I also pay for Creative Cloud which is far more economical than the individual bits. Matt Hogstrom “It may be cognitive, but, it ain’t intuitive." — Hogstrom > On Aug 15, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Steve Beaver > <050e0c375a14-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > Has anyone broken down and bought > > Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office. -- Tom Marchant On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 15:49:13 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >I find OpenOffice and LibreOffice perfectly adequate. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use in-house). So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates. Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data into the M/S cloud. But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre. Steve Thompson On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote: Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Guys and gals. Than you for all your input Steve Beaver -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 12:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I have both M/S office products and Libre Office on W10 & W11 laptops. The reason for that is, clients are tied to M/S so I have to use Office 365 for interfacing with them. I use Libre office when I do not want M/S to use One Drive, or otherwise don't need M/S software (We have our own file server which we use in-house). So beware. If you turn off One Drive, M/S Office products will not autosave (in my experience with W10 or W11). They will not recover if M/S decides you need to reboot to finish updates. Try to get M/S Support to see/recognize this as a problem. One Drive is common to M/S office apps and I think the bug is in One Drive. It wants to write to local disk, and then send your data into the M/S cloud. But back to Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre. Steve Thompson On 8/15/2023 1:22 PM, Tom Marchant wrote: > Same here. I use Libre office. I prefer it over Microsoft office. > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019. No plans to upgrade until I must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I wanted to continue doing. For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a hex-display feature. I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine. But one day it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear. Turns out, though, they'd discontinued the hex feature. Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, by the way? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology. -Rick Joyner, October 2018. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I have Pro-Plus too, and I'm definitely an individual contractor. And yes, I too fork over the money for it, whenever I get a new PC, because it has Access. My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Being a programmer is one thing above all else: It is understanding how things work. -from the introduction to "Assembly Language Step-by-Step" (2nd edition) by Jeff Nuntemann */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Farley, Peter Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:33 I’ve had Office 365 for years now, I find it useful to keep paying the yearly fee because they upgrade the individual components without me needing to concern myself with which version is current today and I can share it with my family for no extra charge. In prior times when I consulted for a living I did always buy the “Professional” version because it included Access. A little time spent with Mr. Google says that the “Plus” version may be for “business volume purchases only”, not for individual purchase, but I may be mis-interpreting what I read. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short: I finally, maybe a year ago, got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word. I asked you folks and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a week off to learn to use LaTeX. I'm ~much~ happier with that. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47 Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at www.fileviewer.com It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT. I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. Lennie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019. No plans to upgrade until I must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I wanted to continue doing. For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a hex-display feature. I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine. But one day it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear. Turns out, though, they'd discontinued the hex feature. Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, by the way? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology. -Rick Joyner, October 2018. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: > >... My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just > as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out > that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing. > "Real thing" depends on point of view. What if your client is Linux-centric? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Find me one in the USofA that is Linux centric. I went to Linux desktops about 2002 because M/S was not going to put USB drivers into NT 4.0 at midlife. Suse Linux 7 something in a box did not install very well. So I went off to Lindows. Then Linspire and finally back to Suse Linux. I wanted to go off to OS/2, but IBM had some issue where you needed their BIOS so I was unable to get the Red or Blue version of OS/2 to install on any system I built. I just didn't have the money for a PS2 system to make OS/2 happy. I have gotten nothing but grief from family because M/S Office does this, and Word does that. Open Office became Libre Office So having used Wordstar, Wordstar 2000 (what a disaster), Word, Word Perfect, etc. I kind of know their differences. Today, I prefer Libre Office and FF with Thunderbird as opposed to M/S products that all want me to use their cloud so that I am beholding to them. And when V-Box and Suse are being nice to/with each other, I run W7 or whatever under Linux. But no customer that I've had uses Linux for their office systems. It is all Outlook and M/S Office. Oh and now my children are glad I introduced them to Linux desk tops because they can work on almost any system. Oh and they complained about being taught to drive a stick too. Until they needed that skill one day Steve Thompson On 8/15/2023 10:03 PM, Paul Gilmartin wrote: On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: ... My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing. "Real thing" depends on point of view. What if your client is Linux-centric? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
If I can't have BookMaster or BookManager Build, LaTeX is a good choice, especially with expl3. There is a massive library of packages at Comprehensive TeX Archive Network (CTAN) <https://ctan.org/>. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 5:02 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short: I finally, maybe a year ago, got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word. I asked you folks and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a week off to learn to use LaTeX. I'm ~much~ happier with that. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Thompson Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47 Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Fair point, but my clients hire me as a mainframe geek. I do know other things, but most of my income is from mainframe security, with occasional forays into coding for MS Office. So from my point of view, "the real thing" is MS Office. My oldest daughter is a Linux fan; I've never used it. I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. I wouldn't mind getting used to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to be picking up other new skills instead, at least for now. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* A demonstration that rich felons go unhung is not an argument for freeing poor felons, but for redoubling efforts against rich felons. -William F Buckley, _Four Reforms_ (1973) */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 22:03 "Real thing" depends on point of view. What if your client is Linux-centric? --- On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: >... My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just > as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out > that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
The Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rule. But I don't use it when it's not mandatory. Would that be vi, AKA the editor from Hell? It has the advantage that if you have to use a random *ix system, there will almost certainly be some version available. If not vi, was it emacs? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 9:58 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone Fair point, but my clients hire me as a mainframe geek. I do know other things, but most of my income is from mainframe security, with occasional forays into coding for MS Office. So from my point of view, "the real thing" is MS Office. My oldest daughter is a Linux fan; I've never used it. I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. I wouldn't mind getting used to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to be picking up other new skills instead, at least for now. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* A demonstration that rich felons go unhung is not an argument for freeing poor felons, but for redoubling efforts against rich felons. -William F Buckley, _Four Reforms_ (1973) */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 22:03 "Real thing" depends on point of view. What if your client is Linux-centric? --- On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:58:27 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: >... My little sister reminds me from time to time that OpenOffice is just > as good, but I don't want to write something for a client and then find out > that it isn't QUITE the same as the real thing. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
It really depends on your requirements, but for many years we have used a Docbook based approach for our technical documentation, which allows us to easily generate HTML, PDF, and man page versions of our documentation. It's a bit of work getting the XSL styles tweaked to your liking, but after that it is quite nice. Kirk Wolf Dovetailed Technologies See: https://coztoolkit.com/docs/coz/coz_index.html On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, at 4:02 PM, Bob Bridges wrote: > I've ranted on this before so I'll make it short: I finally, maybe a year > ago, got tired of trying to write serious documentation in Word. I asked you > folks and those at another listserv about markup languages, and then took a > week off to learn to use LaTeX. I'm ~much~ happier with that. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* In order to write for "The A-Team", you'd have to be a much better writer > than most of those who write the evening news at networks and local stations > — forget about shows like "Hill Street Blues" or "The Muppet Show", where > writing REALLY counts. -Linda Ellerbee in _And So It Goes_ */ > > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Steve Thompson > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 13:47 > > Libre Office: It does about 90% of what M/S Office products do (Word, & XL > are what I use). Word is better at formatting documents than is Libre office > in my experience. And XL has more features than Libre. > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Too many years ago; I don't remember. And it isn't as if "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job - once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" bug me in ways I cannot put into words. -Tal Waterhouse */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 10:26 The Golden Rule: he who has the gold makes the rule. But I don't use it when it's not mandatory. Would that be vi, AKA the editor from Hell? It has the advantage that if you have to use a random *ix system, there will almost certainly be some version available. If not vi, was it emacs? From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhbrid...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 9:58 AM I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. I wouldn't mind getting used to it - I'm not tired of learning yet - but life is short and I seem to be picking up other new skills instead, at least for now. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:23:33 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: >...; TECO (anyone ever use >that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with >early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd >uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job - >once I was used to it. > I agree. Iused TECO on Decsystem-10 and PDP-8. I was irritated when I got a mainframe job that required that I learn ROSCOE. "But it's a full screen editor!" "So what!?" I suspect the other party's point of reference was TSO EDIT, not even full-duplex communication! An editor should have closer communication with the user than a programming language paradigm allows. >But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour >wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything. > Even though I don't use it much, I've advocated for Jedit. Java, therefore portable. Has anyone installed it on a z? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I've occasionally thought of writing a TECO-like editor for myself. But what with ISPF Edit macros, and ooRexx, and like that, I guess there isn't really much point, is there? Unless it's just for fun... --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Of a proposed course of action [God] wants men, so far as I can see, to ask very simple questions: Is it righteous? Is it prudent? Is it possible? Now, if we can keep men asking "Is it in accordance with the general movement of our time? Is it progressive or reactionary? Is this the way that History is going?", they will neglect the relevant questions. -advice to a tempter, from The Screwtape Letters by C S Lewis */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 12:20 I agree. Iused TECO on Decsystem-10 and PDP-8. I was irritated when I got a mainframe job that required that I learn ROSCOE. "But it's a full screen editor!" "So what!?" I suspect the other party's point of reference was TSO EDIT, not even full-duplex communication! An editor should have closer communication with the user than a programming language paradigm allows. --- On Wed, 16 Aug 2023 11:23:33 -0400, Bob Bridges wrote: TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job - once I was used to it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Bob Bridges wrote, in part: >I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer >code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor >that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is: "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On 8/16/2023 5:41 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is: "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." ++1 I have a cert for being able to use vi from the U of Akron.. I can start it and kill it. Apparently that qualifies as being able to use it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On 8/16/2023 5:41 PM, Phil Smith III wrote: As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is:> "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." Chuckle. That's good. But there are more modes. I just can't come up with any comparably witty descriptions. On 8/16/23 5:27 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: ++1 I have a cert for being able to use vi from the U of Akron.. I can start it and kill it. Apparently that qualifies as being able to use it. I used the following today: :0,/^$/s/\s\+/\t/ It saved me a lot of time working on / analyzing an email. If there's interest, I'll expand it for people. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote: Bob Bridges wrote, in part: I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is: "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." This joke never fails to amuse me: https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/. Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups. Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim. It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape. Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when! https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from hell." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Sounds like emacs Once opened I couldnt wait to get out Matt Hogstrom PGP key 0F143BC1 > On Aug 16, 2023, at 17:42, Phil Smith III wrote: > >> I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer >> code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor >> that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
What is the usage of gvim, and is there a z/OS port? I tend to write edit macros freely, and want an editor with a powerful and readable macro language. Were I to switch from TSPF, I'd be more likely to go to emacs () ;-) or THE than to gvim. As for git, I'm still getting my toes wet, but it's an obvious tool to look at. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 7:28 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote: > Bob Bridges wrote, in part: >> I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer >> code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor >> that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. > As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best > description of vi I've ever heard is: > "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at > you." This joke never fails to amuse me: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1aZPo01EgQ3QxNnPL6W90Hfy-95T5h8aBn8af37iNbonpe5eONqX1rzUM1dsyG2JjYhgGJUdcu2dTRnJ1yhCN76rB9b1hzvE-WX2XbWVGiznJ0TGg-lKH0IoxoebVxJ6eq8zEd179CBZl418aJGejNgxeVwFjdxvb0QpWFl9LHt6FTPxkQ3cBm10CuyQm98j2LteyMseral78RWJMBLHIpst7yl2qUZAVpoyN7_T5TtG7mm-1pEVSGiHOlbkXzSzTpZh7itIoxNXsRJ4kvjeyxGzvagG5NR7s8lSe4-oSBIknJHKO6zHHc3vS2OaK5mXj-_x4GqOYfeN86oLwMhGsMR03bCi-MuSUXiXLg9iJRocfMSIjA6PRe3dYR8d8nzKn0o8E46RKnjXlBaOXjNZ0ngT4TZjyXmj-XthbA-xsSoYRoHxq0_WCYE7eCRY_fdvF/https%3A%2F%2Fjokejet.com%2Flady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim%2F Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups. Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim. It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape. Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when! https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from hell." > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
Hi David, I learned VIM because my job was expanded to add responsibility for Linux and AIX software installation and maintenance. (I am no expert, but), ISPF Edit has the ability to do an an intelligent change where changing A to AB (or vice versa) it tries to keep the rest of the line the way it was. I have not seen this ability in another editor. As well, no other editor can limit the search by columns in the change command. (I know that XEDIT can do it by issuing a command to do this before issuing the change command.) Regards, David On 2023-08-17 07:28, David Crayford wrote: On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote: Bob Bridges wrote, in part: I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is: "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." This joke never fails to amuse me: https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/. Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups. Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim. It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape. Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when! https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from hell." -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On 17/8/2023 8:26 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: What is the usage of gvim, and is there a z/OS port? Gvim, being a GUI, offers menus and the ability to share the clipboard with the OS. However, it seems that most users are drawn to the terminal environment, which might be why Gvim's popularity is diminishing. Also, clipboard integration has been implemented in plugins for the last decade. As for a z/OS port, that would necessitate x11, which isn't exactly tailored to the purpose. Interestingly, the Stack Overflow IDE 2023 survey highlights a distinction between Vim and Neovim as separate editors, despite Neovim being a fork of Vim. When you combine the percentages of both, it becomes apparent just how popular Vim remains. [1] Link: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2023/#section-most-popular-technologies-integrated-development-environment In Vim, macros are implemented as a recording and playback feature. You have the ability to write Vimscript to customize the editor's behavior. In contrast, NeoVim leverages Lua scripting for both configuration and scripting purposes, even employing a vimscript to Lua transpiler for optimization. The NeoVim community is comprised of a group of exceptionally skilled and innovative young hackers. They have taken the foundation of Vim, forked it, and transformed it into a fully-fledged integrated development environment (IDE) equipped with an array of features including language servers, an asynchronous event loop, and the powerful scripting capabilities of Lua. This evolution is in line with the changing landscape of development environments, which now often involve containerized images. The versatility of NeoVim allows for convenient home directory network mounts that facilitate the sharing of NeoVim configurations within Linux containers. This ease of integration contrasts with the challenges presented by running resource-intensive GUIs like Visual Studio Code or IntelliJ backends within those same containers. [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stqUbv-5u2s As for git, I'm still getting my toes wet, but it's an obvious tool to look at. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 7:28 AM To:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote: Bob Bridges wrote, in part: I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best description of vi I've ever heard is: "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps at you." This joke never fails to amuse me: https://secure-web.cisco.com/1aZPo01EgQ3QxNnPL6W90Hfy-95T5h8aBn8af37iNbonpe5eONqX1rzUM1dsyG2JjYhgGJUdcu2dTRnJ1yhCN76rB9b1hzvE-WX2XbWVGiznJ0TGg-lKH0IoxoebVxJ6eq8zEd179CBZl418aJGejNgxeVwFjdxvb0QpWFl9LHt6FTPxkQ3cBm10CuyQm98j2LteyMseral78RWJMBLHIpst7yl2qUZAVpoyN7_T5TtG7mm-1pEVSGiHOlbkXzSzTpZh7itIoxNXsRJ4kvjeyxGzvagG5NR7s8lSe4-oSBIknJHKO6zHHc3vS2OaK5mXj-_x4GqOYfeN86oLwMhGsMR03bCi-MuSUXiXLg9iJRocfMSIjA6PRe3dYR8d8nzKn0o8E46RKnjXlBaOXjNZ0ngT4TZjyXmj-XthbA-xsSoYRoHxq0_WCYE7eCRY_fdvF/https%3A%2F%2Fjokejet.com%2Flady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim%2F Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups. Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. I then procee
Re: Has anyone
> On 17 Aug 2023, at 9:27 pm, David Spiegel > <0468385049d1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > Hi David, > I learned VIM because my job was expanded to add responsibility for Linux and > AIX software installation and maintenance. > (I am no expert, but), ISPF Edit has the ability to do an an intelligent > change where changing A to AB (or vice versa) it tries to keep the rest of > the line the way it was. > I have not seen this ability in another editor. You will have to supply more context because I haven’t used ISPF as my primary editor for 20 years and I haven’t experienced that problem with Slickedit, IntelliJ, Vim etc. > As well, no other editor can limit the search by columns in the change > command. (I know that XEDIT can do it by issuing a command to do this before > issuing the change command.) That’s simple using a regular expression > > Regards, > David > > On 2023-08-17 07:28, David Crayford wrote: >> On 17/8/2023 5:41 am, Phil Smith III wrote: >>> Bob Bridges wrote, in part: I once spent an agonizing half-hour trying to help a Unix programmer code a program in a language I know using some kind of Unix editor that was so unintuitive I could hardly accomplish anything. >>> As Shmuel suggests, that sounds like vi or one of its relatives. The best >>> description of vi I've ever heard is: >>> "vi has two modes: one where it corrupts your data, and one where it beeps >>> at you." >> This joke never fails to amuse me: >> https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/. >> >> Is there anyone left who still uses vi? Vim has practically become the >> standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear >> someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor >> from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort >> to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. It's likely that they gave >> it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit >> the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has >> persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. Vim's learning curve is >> steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight >> editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI >> applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained >> setups. >> >> Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that >> reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial >> teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line >> edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed >> and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple >> cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim >> can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that >> limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member >> list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, >> NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS >> ports of Vim. >> >> It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not >> just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred >> editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit >> history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text >> User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape. >> >> Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, >> right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git >> history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer >> modified a specific line of code in which commit and when! >> >> https://github.com/lewis6991/gitsigns.nvim. >> >> Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual >> entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from >> hell." >> >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >>> send email tolists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the me
Re: Has anyone
On 8/17/23 6:28 AM, David Crayford wrote: This joke never fails to amuse me: https://jokejet.com/lady-gaga-tries-to-exit-vim/. I'm as tired of exit vi jokes as I am people acting as if the mainframe doesn't include contemporary technology. Is there anyone left who still uses vi? I use a mixture of vim, vi, and ed. Probably each to a lesser order of magnitude to the previous. I have a system that I periodically edit config files on that has -- what I consider to be -- a bad vim profile wherein frequently, but not always, it will replace the first character on the line with a lower case g. So I use vi rather than spending time trying to figure out why this is. The powers that be keep saying that this system is going away any day now. Vim has practically become the standard on most systems, and NeoVim is following suit with Vim. When I hear someone griping about Vim's lack of intuitiveness or labeling it the "editor from hell," I quickly realize that they probably haven't put in the effort to truly learn how to harness Vim's capabilities. I agree. But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits of text files? This is a case of where discoverability comes into play. Can a user put in front of it discover on their own how to do what they want to do? Or do they need to be taught how to do it? The ed, ex, vi, vim, etc. all fail at discoverability. But that's okay. Discoverability is not their domain of expertise. Their domain of expertise is doing things with text that a less complex editor couldn't fathom doing. I think the same ding also applies to emacs. Though emacs at least puts a little bit more direction on screen as hints of what to do. It's likely that they gave it a shot, grappled with its unique modes, may have even struggled to exit the application, and as a result, developed a negative impression that has persisted since that initial unpleasing encounter. I think the same thing could be said about MS-DOS's edlin. Vim's learning curve is steep, but the benefits are significant for those in search of a lightweight editor that's arguably more powerful than even the most intricate GUI applications. Moreover, it performs efficiently even on resource-constrained setups. I agree. Occasionally, I still turn to ISPF for editing JCL or REXX programs that reside in PDS datasets. In a recent WebEx session with my millennial teammates, I was demonstrating some new JCL. While performing a multi-line edit involving COPY/OVERLAY after column adjustments, they playfully laughed and teased me. Phrases like "Is ISPF your IDE?", "Does ISPF support multiple cursors?" and "Why not use Vim?" were thrown my way. I clarified that Vim can't manage MVS datasets, although the DSFS might eventually address that limitation. I then proceeded to showcase the usage of SRCHFOR from a member list. However, their response wasn't as impressed as it was with vimgrep, NerdTree, Telescope and the numerous plugins that operate seamlessly on z/OS ports of Vim. I'm not a fan of multiple cursors / editors in the same file. It's worth mentioning that young developers are actively embracing Vim, not just the seasoned Unix programmers. It has emerged as one of the preferred editors for full stack web development. Take a look at the videos and commit history for NeoVim, and you'll be amazed by the dominance of a TUI (Text User Interface) editor in a rapidly evolving tech landscape. I've been seeing that trend for many years. Though most of what I see is that most of the time these users have many plugins that significantly alter the behavior of the system. Take those plugins away and these same users will scoff at the base unextended editor. Now, let's delve into Git integration. We're all on the Git bandwagon, right? There are plugins available that empower me to delve into the Git history of files, providing inline annotations to pinpoint which developer modified a specific line of code in which commit and when! Yep. Now do those same things without the integration into $EDITOR. Of course, it's all a matter of perspective, and to a young individual entering the realm of z/OS, ISPF might very well seem like the "editor from hell." Perspective, discoverability, task at hand, terminal capability all help influence what editor is used at a given time. -- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
> But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits > of text files? Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn. > I'm not a fan of multiple cursors / editors in the same file. I found multiple views of the same file to be quite useful in XEDIT. > Take those plugins away and these same users will scoff at the > base unextended editor. Take away CPAN and I would have abandoned Perl years ago. Libraries like CTAN are too useful to ignore. I regard them as part of the ecosystem. Take emacs. There's a plethora of stuff that has grown up around it, and that makes it more useful than it would have been in isolation. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Grant Taylor [023065957af1-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2023 10:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone On 8/17/23 6:28 AM, David Crayford wrote: -- Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On 8/18/23 9:57 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn. It's been a LONG time since I've gone through it, but I can say that vimtutor (command) worked well for me back in the day. I've had fun playing VIM Adventures (https://vim-adventures.com/) to refresh basics and learn more advanced things. -- I think one of the things that VIM Adventures teaches is think about what you want to do and how to direct VIM to do it in the fewest keystrokes possible. Mostly because of things like . (dot) repeatability, macros, and the likes. I've found Practical Vim and Vim Casts from Drew Neil and -- I think -- his Vim Casts to be worth watching. I don't remember the last time I launched emacs. I chose vi(m) more than 20 years ago because it started multiple times faster than emacs on the same system. I go into and out of editors and live on the command line. I don't boot an editor and live therein. I found multiple views of the same file to be quite useful in XEDIT. Yep. I'll do similar in vim. N.B. when I said multiple cursors, I was thinking multiple people on different systems editing different parts of the file. I'm sure there are legitimate use cases for that, just not in the text files that I'm editing. Take away CPAN and I would have abandoned Perl years ago. Libraries like CTAN are too useful to ignore. I regard them as part of the ecosystem. ACK Take emacs. There's a plethora of stuff that has grown up around it, and that makes it more useful than it would have been in isolation. Yep. Grant. . . . -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
EBCDIC - WnBrowse. Very small, quite old, free. BTW: When no dedicated tool is available, then regular MS Word could be used. XMIT - a bunch of viewers listed on cbttape.org. My preferred one is XiFrame Xmit Explorer. BTW2: The above tools combined with 7zip or WinRAR provide quite nice set of tools for viewing SMP/E stuff. :-) BTW3: Fortunately it is much more on-topic than MS Office. :-) -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 15.08.2023 o 23:58, Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw pisze: For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at www.fileviewer.com It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT. I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. Lennie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019. No plans to upgrade until I must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I wanted to continue doing. For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a hex-display feature. I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine. But one day it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear. Turns out, though, they'd discontinued the hex feature. Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, by the way? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology. -Rick Joyner, October 2018. */ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll > > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits > > of text files? > > Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn. I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else, customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for clarification on various subjects. Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying. But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for those who want to look at it. But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do all this in a single emacs process, just in case. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, delete, split and join lines etc. Roops On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, 07:07 Tomasz Rola, wrote: > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll > > > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits > > > of text files? > > > > Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn. > > I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs > to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful > half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years > ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later > you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else, > customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry > though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning > this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for > clarification on various subjects. > > Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting > pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying. > > But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without > even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise > Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for > those who want to look at it. > > But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using > emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source > code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do > all this in a single emacs process, just in case. > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone
> I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that. "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor" -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 2:07 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 02:57:55PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > But I'll counter with, why should people need to learn -- what I'll > > politely call -- a non-intuitive editor to do occasional simple edits > > of text files? > > Understood, but vi and emacs are still on my list of software to learn. I found emacs to be quite easy to learn. One just starts it and needs to actually read what the thing is saying (one of the most fruitful half hours ever was, for me, reading emacs tutorial, about 29 years ago). However, bear in mind, if you start using emacs, sooner or later you will learn at least a bit of Emacs Lisp (Elisp). If nothing else, customising (writing one's own .emacs file) is done in Elisp. No worry though, they have a manual for the language, and when I was learning this and that Lisp, their manual was quite nice to have for clarification on various subjects. Actually, I did quite a lot of customising by finding interesting pieces in other people's .emacs files and shamelessly copying. But one can also customise it using built in system for it - without even knowing there is any Lisp involved (menu Options / Customise Emacs is that, I think). Still, there is plenty of Lisp beneath for those who want to look at it. But for many years before doing my own dot-emacs, I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor, file browser, manpage reader, source code viewer etc. Also, web browser. Just pay attention and do not do all this in a single emacs process, just in case. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone
I highly recommend "HxD hex edit". Rex -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Lennie Dymoke-Bradshaw Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:58 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone For a HEX viewr, try the V fileviewer at https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.fileviewer.com__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!v5eXBmYcxxvXzFMv9qPTYvGHG1T8CpbwNOSdjb9rP7YSJyy5HZXFMw7jmOS_OWfq7pas02f-uMf_iO-Lzyt_nTK3Yk3bwUpoZ3QD$ It also recognises XMIT format and will even work with XMIT within XMIT. I bought a license about 8 years back for very little. Lennie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Bob Bridges Sent: 15 August 2023 21:55 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone I use MS Office Pro Plus, but it's still 2019. No plans to upgrade until I must; often when I "upgrade" I find the new product doesn't do something I wanted to continue doing. For example, some years ago I set out to find a text editor that had a hex-display feature. I settled on Notepad++, and it was fine. But one day it offered an upgrade, and I accepted without fear. Turns out, though, they'd discontinued the hex feature. Does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement, by the way? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* It is amazing how reading the whole Bible can affect some eschatology. -Rick Joyner, October 2018. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Steve Beaver Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:19 Has anyone broken down and bought Microsoft Office 2021 Professional Plus+ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone
I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for me. Supports EBCDIC. Charles On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex wrote: >I highly recommend "HxD hex edit". -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone
I use both Libre Office and Ashampoo office. The Ashampoo products are like MS-Office used to be. Not overloaded with features I don't need and each component offers compatible file formats with MS-Office. Costs about $20. I have a number of other Ashampoo products for disk backup, video editing, audio editing and photo processing. There is a free version for their Office suite too. On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 5:46 AM Charles Mills wrote: > I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for > me. Supports EBCDIC. > > Charles > > On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex > wrote: > > >I highly recommend "HxD hex edit". > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- Wayne V. Bickerdike -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone
Other advantages of HxD are: 1. It can edit large files. Much larger than you RAM. 2. It can be set up to "support LRECL" - very useful when working with files downloaded from z/OS (without CRLF). -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 16.08.2023 o 00:46, Charles Mills pisze: I use it. I have nothing to really compare it to, but it does the job for me. Supports EBCDIC. Charles On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 22:16:16 +, Pommier, Rex wrote: I highly recommend "HxD hex edit". -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Has anyone
He had me at "Supports EBCDIC". The other 2 hex editors on my PC don't, and I've had trouble in the past trying to convert in my head, especially lower case. One time I remember running a test and purposely used only numbers as data because I could translate those easily. On 8/19/2023 10:29 AM, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: Other advantages of HxD are: 1. It can edit large files. Much larger than you RAM. 2. It can be set up to "support LRECL" - very useful when working with files downloaded from z/OS (without CRLF). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM: Too many years ago; I don't remember. And it isn't as if "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job - once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" bug me in ways I cannot put into words. -Tal Waterhouse */ IBM-MAIN relevancy: ISPF EDIT still rules! (But now I should learn regexps.) I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider "what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. TECO, to be precise. It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4]. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: > I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their ability to use such a narrow bandwith. > I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being > almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not blazingly fast - about five seconds. Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer "hexdump -C I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for > Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things > done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, > delete, split and join lines etc. U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like attanaible goal for me :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 12:51:00PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor > > For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro > facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I > learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that. > > "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor" Maybe people say so because they expected something else. Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs (i.e. wholesome, whereas some systems divide whole into some parts, like binaries plus ELisp files compiled for speed, ELisp source code, manuals)... but if you have it all, then just do "C-h i" and you will be presented, among other things, with: * Emacs: (emacs). The extensible self-documenting text editor. * Emacs FAQ: (efaq).Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs. * Elisp: (elisp). The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual. * Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr).A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp programming. This will be info, a builtin hypertext documentation system. Other source of hints and information are: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page https://www.emacswiki.org/ And to up the spirit: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryHumor https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNilism And org-mode really useful part of it: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Org-mode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OrgMode and some obligatory short movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMntOQjs7Q -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might disagree. The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a character-by-character loop -- input such as 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN Am I missing something? It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to the user. Any suggestions? Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
LOL, yeah, I guess that's true. But I found it pretty powerful at the time, before full-screen editors were available to me. Actually I still think it was powerful. There are reasons to like WordPad, for instance (which I use extensively for low-level documentation), but when I want to do something complicated in the way of editing - not just lots of typing from scratch, but complex edits - well, nowadays I'm content with REXX but back then I would have enthused over TECO. In fact I ~did~ enthuse over it, without winning many converts as I recall. But yeah, the comment about transmission noise is pretty accurate. And yes, I should learn ISFP's regexps. I finally started using VBS's version a couple years ago, so I can no longer argue against the utility of regular expressions in general. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* God gives what He has, not what He has not; He gives the happiness that there is, not the happiness that is not. To be God — to be like God and to share His goodness in creaturely response — to be miserable — those are the only three alternatives. If we will not learn to eat the only food that the universe grows — the only food that any possible universe ever can grow — then we must starve eternally. -from "The Problem of Pain" by C S Lewis. */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Leonard D Woren Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 16:13 IBM-MAIN relevancy: ISPF EDIT still rules! (But now I should learn regexps.) I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does --- Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM: > ...TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP > platform as > I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was > full > of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good > job - > once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour wasn't > enough > for me to learn much about it or get used to anything. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
I remember using: 0lt$$ (the $$ is how escape-escape echoed.) More times than I can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when programming on a teletype. The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is just a visual decedent of TECO. Hayim Sokolsky (he/him/his) Director, Software Engineering Rocket Software, USA E: hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com W:RocketSoftware.com The views I have expressed in this email are my own personal views, and are not endorsed or supported by, and do not necessarily express or reflect, the views, positions or strategies of my employer. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Leonard D Woren Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: TECO (was Re: Has anyone) EXTERNAL EMAIL Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM: > Too many years ago; I don't remember. And it isn't as if > "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application; > TECO (anyone ever use > that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - > with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was > full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it > did a good job - once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor > was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to > anything. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" > bug me in ways I cannot put into words. -Tal Waterhouse */ IBM-MAIN relevancy: ISPF EDIT still rules! (But now I should learn regexps.) I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider "what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. TECO, to be precise. It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4]. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ■ 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA 02451 ■ Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323 Contact Customer Support: https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport Unsubscribe from Marketing Messages/Manage Your Subscription Preferences - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/manage-your-email-preferences Privacy Policy - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy This communication and any attachments may contain confidential information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this communication. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
Heh, heh, a decedent, really? So vi really is dead? --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* Whatever you were looking for doesn't currently exist at this address. Unless you were looking for this error page, in which case: Congrats! You totally found it. -404 message */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Hayim Sokolsky Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 18:35 I remember using "0lt$$" (the $$ is how escape-escape echoed) more times than I can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when programming on a teletype. The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is just a visual decedent of TECO. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Leonard D Woren Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
On 22/8/2023 4:12 am, Leonard D Woren wrote: Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM: Too many years ago; I don't remember. And it isn't as if "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application; TECO (anyone ever use that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it did a good job - once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to anything. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" bug me in ways I cannot put into words. -Tal Waterhouse */ IBM-MAIN relevancy: ISPF EDIT still rules! If the only tool you know is a hammer? (But now I should learn regexps.) I noticed that z/OS 3.1 has some ISPF enhancements for syntax highlighting. What would it take to write a tree-sitter edit macro for ISPF edit? ;- It shouldn't be too difficult to write grammars for mainframe languages https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider "what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. TECO, to be precise. It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4]. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
It's true that the original vi was based on TECO, but I believe that it was rewritten long since. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Hayim Sokolsky [hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 6:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone) I remember using: 0lt$$ (the $$ is how escape-escape echoed.) More times than I can count... but then again, it's what you had to do when programming on a teletype. The ed and vi commands are actually based upon TECO. As far as I know vi is just a visual decedent of TECO. Hayim Sokolsky (he/him/his) Director, Software Engineering Rocket Software, USA E: hsokol...@rocketsoftware.com W:RocketSoftware.com The views I have expressed in this email are my own personal views, and are not endorsed or supported by, and do not necessarily express or reflect, the views, positions or strategies of my employer. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Leonard D Woren Sent: Monday, August 21, 2023 4:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: TECO (was Re: Has anyone) EXTERNAL EMAIL Bob Bridges wrote on 8/16/2023 8:23 AM: > Too many years ago; I don't remember. And it isn't as if > "unintuitive" is a fatal error in editors or any other application; > TECO (anyone ever use > that?) is a powerful editor - it was on the PDP platform as I recall - > with early automation features that I used extensively, and it was > full of odd uses for and '$' and some other characters, but it > did a good job - once I was used to it. But whatever this Unix editor > was, a half hour wasn't enough for me to learn much about it or get used to > anything. > > --- > Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 > > /* People who can't distinguish between "etymology" and "entomology" > bug me in ways I cannot put into words. -Tal Waterhouse */ IBM-MAIN relevancy: ISPF EDIT still rules! (But now I should learn regexps.) I never tried TECO, after reading "Real Programmers Don't Use PASCAL" 40 years ago. Extract: Some of the concepts in these Xerox editors have been incorporated into editors running on more reasonably named operating systems -- EMACS and VI being two. The problem with these editors is that Real Programmers consider "what you see is what you get" to be just as bad a concept in Text Editors as it is in women. No the Real Programmer wants a "you asked for it, you got it" text editor -- complicated, cryptic, powerful, unforgiving, dangerous. TECO, to be precise. It has been observed that a TECO command sequence more closely resembles transmission line noise than readable text [4]. One of the more entertaining games to play with TECO is to type your name in as a command line and try to guess what it does. Just about any possible typing error while talking with TECO will probably destroy your program, or even worse -- introduce subtle and mysterious bugs in a once working subroutine. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ■ 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA 02451 ■ Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323 Contact Customer Support: https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport Unsubscribe from Marketing Messages/Manage Your Subscription Preferences - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/manage-your-email-preferences Privacy Policy - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy This communication and any attachments may contain confidential information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this communication. Thank you. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
On 2023-08-22 07:17 AM, David Crayford wrote: https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ That looks like a gem! -- Regards, Gord Tomlin Action Software International (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: TECO (was Re: Has anyone)
> On 22 Aug 2023, at 10:10 pm, Gord Tomlin > wrote: > > On 2023-08-22 07:17 AM, David Crayford wrote: >> https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/ > > That looks like a gem! Oh yeah! It’s next level and it's an incremental parser. > > -- > > Regards, Gord Tomlin > Action Software International > (a division of Mazda Computer Corporation) > Tel: (905) 470-7113, Fax: (905) 470-6507 > Support: https://actionsoftware.com/support/ > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported to Linux/Unix. I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf written for Linux/Unix Sent from my iPhone No one said I could type with one thumb > On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) > > Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their > ability to use such a narrow bandwith. > >> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. > > Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool > which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for > anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is > avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes > are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In > some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. > > I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code > I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. > > BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 > megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure > of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is > just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not > blazingly fast - about five seconds. > > Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer > "hexdump -C > BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in > psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga > jokes. Try "M-x doctor". > >> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >> delete, split and join lines etc. > > U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very > young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like > attanaible goal for me :-). > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf ported to Linux/Unix. https://github.com/daniel64/lspf I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf written for Linux/Unix hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. Sent from my iPhone No one said I could type with one thumb On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their ability to use such a narrow bandwith. I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not blazingly fast - about five seconds. Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer "hexdump -C I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, delete, split and join lines etc. U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like attanaible goal for me :-). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in the modern world of language servers. On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote: On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their ability to use such a narrow bandwith. I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not blazingly fast - about five seconds. Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer "hexdump -C I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, delete, split and join lines etc. U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like attanaible goal for me :-). -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Whoops! Forgot the link https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode > On 23 Aug 2023, at 12:19 pm, David Crayford wrote: > > I noticed that there is LSP support for Emacs. That's super important in the > modern world of language servers. > > On 23/8/2023 9:32 am, Tomasz Rola wrote: >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) >> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their >> ability to use such a narrow bandwith. >> >>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. >> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool >> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for >> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is >> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes >> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In >> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. >> >> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code >> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. >> >> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 >> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure >> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is >> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not >> blazingly fast - about five seconds. >> >> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer >> "hexdump -C > >> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in >> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga >> jokes. Try "M-x doctor". >> >>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >>> delete, split and join lines etc. >> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very >> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like >> attanaible goal for me :-). >> -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> Maybe people say so because they expected something else. "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it. > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs either in the base or in its repositories? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 11:47 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 12:51:00PM +, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > I was just using emacs as ordinary text editor > > For me, an ordinary text editor is one that includes a good macro > facility, and I write new macros at the drop of a hat. If and when I > learn emacs, learning LISP will be part and parcel of that. > > "Emacs is a great operating system that desperately needs a text editor" Maybe people say so because they expected something else. Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs (i.e. wholesome, whereas some systems divide whole into some parts, like binaries plus ELisp files compiled for speed, ELisp source code, manuals)... but if you have it all, then just do "C-h i" and you will be presented, among other things, with: * Emacs: (emacs). The extensible self-documenting text editor. * Emacs FAQ: (efaq).Frequently Asked Questions about Emacs. * Elisp: (elisp). The Emacs Lisp Reference Manual. * Emacs Lisp Intro: (eintr).A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp programming. This will be info, a builtin hypertext documentation system. Other source of hints and information are: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Main_Page https://www.emacswiki.org/ And to up the spirit: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CategoryHumor https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsNilism And org-mode really useful part of it: https://wikemacs.org/wiki/Org-mode https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/OrgMode and some obligatory short movie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnMntOQjs7Q -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> lspf It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well spent. > Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in, which makes allows for smoother completion. On a block mode terminal, you could always assign a PFK to an edit macro, but that leads to a clunkier user interface. I'd say it's still worth doing. As a TSO bigot, my favorite editing environment on the mainframe is XEDIT *, mainly because of SET PENDING. If THE ever fully supports XEDIT macros using SET PENDING, I'll probably start using it. * I'm willing to scarf up good tools where I find them. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 12:17 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: > I have tried VI and I find it to slow. I would use eMacs. Prefer to ispf > ported to Linux/Unix. https://github.com/daniel64/lspf > I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf > written for Linux/Unix hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. > > Sent from my iPhone > > No one said I could type with one thumb > >> On Aug 22, 2023, at 20:32, Tomasz Rola wrote: >> >> On Tue, Aug 22, 2023 at 08:44:30AM +0100, Rupert Reynolds wrote: >>> I remember using ed. Via a 2400bps modem :-) >> Aha. Ed and vi are still being praised by various people for their >> ability to use such a narrow bandwith. >> >>> I'm told the thing with emacs is that, if you like it, it can end up being >>> almost your whole development environment, so you feel lost without it. >> Sure, I agree. But this same thing can be told about any kind of tool >> which does its jobs so well that one does not want to search for >> anything better. Not perfect, just good enough. Part of this is >> avoiding "avalanche" type of changes to the way a tool works. Changes >> are introduced, allright, but usually they are acceptable to me. In >> some cases, I had to include an ELisp snippet into my dot-emacs. >> >> I suspect that I would be able to transplant old version of some code >> I rely upon into newer emacs, but this might prove to be troublesome. >> >> BTW, emacs is not very good with big files. I have now one such ~30 >> megabyte text file, with Unicode and some stuff describing a structure >> of it - it contains my notes, calendar things, but in essence it is >> just a magnafied bookmarks file. It loads quite fast, but not >> blazingly fast - about five seconds. >> >> Emacs has a hex viewer too. I use it rarely, because I prefer >> "hexdump -C > >> BTW2, emacs is the only editor I know about that has built in >> psychiatric help. And no, this is not one of those Lady Gaga >> jokes. Try "M-x doctor". >> >>> I ended up writing my own editor twice (once for TSO and 3278, again for >>> Windoze). Both can run without line numbers and use F-keys to get things >>> done, mostly matching the keys I used with the ISPF editor to insert, >>> delete, split and join lines etc. >> U-hum. I never felt such inclination (except once when I was very very >> young). Learning the tool and using it well enough, seems like >> attanaible goal for me :-). >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Tomasz Rola >> >> -- >> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** >> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** >> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** >> ** ** >> ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com ** >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros > > On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the details. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > >> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros > > On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the details. It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on z/OS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
By definition it's not just a good indicator, it's a perfect indicator, that the editor lacks the feature(s) I wanted for my own idiosyncratic use. I don't usually fault the editor for that; I can almost always think up features that no one else would want. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* If you have a problem with me, text me. And if you don’t have my number, you don’t know me well enough to have a problem with me. -Christian Bale */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 00:18 hahaha! Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros https://github.com/ycm-core/YouCompleteMe. Talking of macros, if you need to write a lot of them it's usually a good indicator that your editor lacks features. --- On 23/8/2023 10:29 am, Steve Beaver wrote: > I have used ISPF for ever and i can out do and any using VI 10 to ispf > written for Linux/Unix -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on > one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on one > end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is in the > details. > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on z/OS. > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > >> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> >>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in > PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a PC > for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
While TSPF is a very good point-in-time clone of ISPF, it also supports things like cut-and-paste, so it's more like running ISPF from an InfoWindow terminal that, e.g., a 3180. I find line commandsd to be good servants but poor masters; use them for the intended purposes and they are very usefull. You have to carbe the bird at the joints. ObTheOneThatGotAway I find that whatever editor I am using, I miss features that some other editor has. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:59 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
> On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other > end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, > with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 > profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > > On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on >> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on >> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is >> in the details. >> > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only > involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing > anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on > z/OS. > > >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) >> >>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> >>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in >> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a >> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. >> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I can see both sides of this. On the one hand I accept that once I'm used to sticking my key into the door of the car, it takes time and thought (when I get one of those new-fangled fobs) to turn it over and find the right button and push it instead. And why take time and thought when it saves no time and effort; pushing the button, turning the key, they're about the same. Nowadays I've gotten as far as doing them both about 50-50. I'm a fan of PC hotkeys; to take my fingers off the keyboard, put my hand on the mouse, find the cursor, move it to the right place, then move my hand back to the keyboard after pushing the button, all this takes (it seems to me) a ~lot~ more time than keeping my hands where they are and just hitting or or whatever. But if someone wants to keep on doing it the way he's used to, I expostulate only mildly. But (and now we get to the other hand) sometimes learning a whole new skill really is worth the effort. I've used the Dvorak layout instead of QWERTY for ten or fifteen years now; it took me a week or two even to get started, and it was a few months before I was fully reflexive (so to speak), but I'm not sorry. LaTeX took me a week, but it's SO much better than Word. ooRexx I'm still not really expert in, though I've been using TSO-REXX for decades. I guess the conclusion is that I'm often willing to make the effort, but I don't choose to give others a hard time if they're not. And besides, if others keep doing it the old way, that makes me special, right? :) Seriously, it increases my market value. --- Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313 /* He can say "horse" in nine languages, but he bought a cow to ride on. -Poor Richard */ -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of David Crayford Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 16:59 I find this interesting as one of my ex-colleagues was the same. He used SPF/PC and the Tachyon assembler. When SPF/PC became obsolete he tried to move to Slickedit which has an ISPF emulation mode. It was painful watching him code as line commands are really inefficient but his muscle memory was such that he just couldn’t change. Flip side of the coin is that one of my esteemed colleagues switched from ISPF to Slickedit and it was a success. He just bit the bullet and learned a new editor. I’ve done this several times to great effect. He even presented the experience to our team. Another example is the architect of the product I’m working on. Long term mainframe guy, ex-IBM DE and general great guy who never wants to stop learning. He taught himself how to use VS Code, markdown and Git so he could contribute to our open source documentation [1]. You are never too old to learn new things. And you should, because they are generally much better. [1] https://z-open-data.github.io/instana-topics/ > --- On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: > It's a start, but I would love the opportunity to fork out $ for a full > clone. Not that I have any objections to using free software when it suits my > needs, but I won't ignore a useful program just because it's not open source. > Take Tritus SPF (TSPF), but not while I'm still breathing; it was money well > spent. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 10:44:08AM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Maybe people say so because they expected something else.
>
> "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip
> came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.
I sensed humor there, but, well... More like sarcasm, rather.
> > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs
>
> Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs
> either in the base or in its repositories?
Probably no such distro, if popular belongs to one of {Debian, Gentoo,
Slackware, SUSE, RedHat}, or one of their close derivatives.
In case of smaller distro - GRML is one. Nowadays "smaller" means
"fits into CD", or 1GB pendrive. They include ed, forgot about cal. No
emacs, but plenty of interpreters, two gcc's, rudimentary x11 and
browser, antivirus, some other tools. GRML is rescue-cd, I use it to
test if my laptops have what I paid for, and for, er, rescue.
OTOH, I am typing this on ParrotOS (Debian derivative, oriented
towards security, pentest and forensics tasks - I am parroting from
their homepage and I really have no idea what it is) and AFAIR the
default install did not have ed... it is in repos, just not included
in installation image, while umpty-megabytes of visual environment
was, and some "codium" - many megs of dead weight (by which I mean, it
must be useful for somebody else) - was included by default during
postinstall phase... I installed ed because I wanted to experiment a
bit. No problem. I deinstalled (vs)codium (some kind of visual studio
cousin) because I do not want to experiment with this. No problem... I
just noticed that times have changed - some years ago /bin/ed and
/usr/bin/cal were both small and expected to be there (60 kbytes for
ed package and about 1mb for gcal, a modern cal rewrite). Now folks
have no place for this. I remember I had to install few more small
packages to make my parrot usable. Well, good to have it in repos,
good to know what I need.
As of emacs in ParrotOS, they had it in repos, but not as decent as I
wanted. Binaries+compiled ELisp in one package and sources for ELisp
files in another, but I have not found (so far) a package containing
info files with manuals. So I downloaded sources, compiled with
minimal options and installed in some non-relevant dir, this brought
me info files there, and entered INFOPATH variable with some dir into
a script I use to start emacs (I use scripts to start various
complicated programs, I find it less complicated than click-and-pray).
As you can see, everything was in there but it still was fun to make
any use of it :-).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
I've compiled post-install scripts for ArcaOS and Linux that pull a lot from
repositories; except for having to add a line to the scripts, I don't mentally
distinguish "on the DVD" from "in the standard repositories." There's still
stuff that isn't in the openSUSE LEAP repositories, but most of what I want is.
There's a lot that I want to learn when I get a round tuit.
On the language front I'll probably test drive an IDE each time I learn a new
language. Right now I'm thinking of
Java
Python
Ruby
but there are others that might be fun to play with.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Tomasz Rola [rto...@ceti.com.pl]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 7:07 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, Aug 23, 2023 at 10:44:08AM +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
> > Maybe people say so because they expected something else.
>
> "Humor is such a subjective thing!" (B5). My guess is that the quip
> came from an emacs user who was perfectly content with it.
I sensed humor there, but, well... More like sarcasm, rather.
> > Anyway, if you have a decent installation of emacs
>
> Is there a popular distribution of Linux that doesn't have emacs
> either in the base or in its repositories?
Probably no such distro, if popular belongs to one of {Debian, Gentoo,
Slackware, SUSE, RedHat}, or one of their close derivatives.
In case of smaller distro - GRML is one. Nowadays "smaller" means
"fits into CD", or 1GB pendrive. They include ed, forgot about cal. No
emacs, but plenty of interpreters, two gcc's, rudimentary x11 and
browser, antivirus, some other tools. GRML is rescue-cd, I use it to
test if my laptops have what I paid for, and for, er, rescue.
OTOH, I am typing this on ParrotOS (Debian derivative, oriented
towards security, pentest and forensics tasks - I am parroting from
their homepage and I really have no idea what it is) and AFAIR the
default install did not have ed... it is in repos, just not included
in installation image, while umpty-megabytes of visual environment
was, and some "codium" - many megs of dead weight (by which I mean, it
must be useful for somebody else) - was included by default during
postinstall phase... I installed ed because I wanted to experiment a
bit. No problem. I deinstalled (vs)codium (some kind of visual studio
cousin) because I do not want to experiment with this. No problem... I
just noticed that times have changed - some years ago /bin/ed and
/usr/bin/cal were both small and expected to be there (60 kbytes for
ed package and about 1mb for gcal, a modern cal rewrite). Now folks
have no place for this. I remember I had to install few more small
packages to make my parrot usable. Well, good to have it in repos,
good to know what I need.
As of emacs in ParrotOS, they had it in repos, but not as decent as I
wanted. Binaries+compiled ELisp in one package and sources for ELisp
files in another, but I have not found (so far) a package containing
info files with manuals. So I downloaded sources, compiled with
minimal options and installed in some non-relevant dir, this brought
me info files there, and entered INFOPATH variable with some dir into
a script I use to start emacs (I use scripts to start various
complicated programs, I find it less complicated than click-and-pray).
As you can see, everything was in there but it still was fun to make
any use of it :-).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
Whoosh! You're still missing the point that what matters is the other end of the connection, and whether the user-facing side can handle character events determines whether vi can respond to characters in (near) real time. SSH carries traffic for other protocols, e.g., SFTP. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 5:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > On 24 Aug 2023, at 5:04 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > It's not relevant where vi is running; what's relevant is what's on the other > end of the pipe. If it's a 3270, real or simulated, then it's block mode, > with all of its pluses and minuses. If it's, e.g., Telnet with a VT100 > profile, then vi can respond to keystrokes in (almost) real time. I already made the point that Vim is running over SSH so take 3270 and Telnet out of the discussion. 3270 was designed for networks in the dark ages. ISPF is still a brilliant platform but it’s no match for ncurses applications that can now leverage cool unicode fonts and other stuff. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of > David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 4:17 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) > > On 24/8/2023 3:51 am, Seymour J Metz wrote: >> Sure, but where are the data coming from? If it's a block-mode terminal on >> one end of the SSH session, then you have the same issue. If it's a PC on >> one end of the signal then it can send individual characters. The Devil is >> in the details. >> > It's running in a Docker container on a headless server. The only > involvement of the PC is the terminal emulator which is not doing > anything special other then rendering. Vim works just as well running on > z/OS. > > >> -- >> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz >> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 >> >> >> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of >> David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2023 3:35 PM >> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU >> Subject: Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone) >> >>> On 23 Aug 2023, at 10:45 pm, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>> >>>> Still finding this hard to recreate using ISPF with edit macros >>> On a PC it's easy to examine every keystroke as it comes in >> PC? That’s running in a Linux shell over SSH. Vim doesn’t need to run on a >> PC for full duplex. It’s a nurses application. >> >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN >> >> -- >> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, >> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, 23 Aug 2023, at 21:59, David Crayford wrote: >You are never too old to learn new things. Cognitive decline happens with illness and/or age. Don't assume it won't happen to you too. There comes a point where although one could make a huge effort to learn new ways of doing old things, it's not worth it. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
CLIST has pretty much the same parsing capabilities as TSO. I think that's natural as both types of command processors were developed on the same platform. REXX OTOH was imported to MVS from elsewhere--VM? I miss those TSO/REXX capabilities. I once encountered a 'REXX preamble' that provided those parsing capabilities. Really complex code. I haven't seen it for years. Not sure I would line up today to adapt it for modern use. VM denizens don't even understand this conversation. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:30 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might disagree. The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a character-by-character loop -- input such as 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN Am I missing something? It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to the user. Any suggestions? Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Oops. I meant ' TSO/CLIST capabilities'. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Jesse 1 Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:54 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** CLIST has pretty much the same parsing capabilities as TSO. I think that's natural as both types of command processors were developed on the same platform. REXX OTOH was imported to MVS from elsewhere--VM? I miss those TSO/REXX capabilities. I once encountered a 'REXX preamble' that provided those parsing capabilities. Really complex code. I haven't seen it for years. Not sure I would line up today to adapt it for modern use. VM denizens don't even understand this conversation. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:30 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might disagree. The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a character-by-character loop -- input such as 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN Am I missing something? It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to the user. Any suggestions? Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote: > It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format > command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > > I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others > might disagree. Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want? Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in. > The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, > which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" > (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that > would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... Why do you need quoted strings? Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So > 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN might become !now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN (I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects a single token as its argument could be given !the!meaning!of!life but still process that as "the meaning of life". Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
No argument. Still, it's hard to beat the flexibility of TSO/CLIST parameter handling. I wrote a TSO command once partly for kicks. Really complicated. Pointers to pointers to pointers. When it was done, it was super easy to use. Sigh. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Jeremy Nicoll Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote: > It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO > format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > > I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and > others might disagree. Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want? Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in. > The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing > power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic > "MVS" > (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC > that would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... Why do you need quoted strings? Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So > 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN might become !now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN (I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects a single token as its argument could be given !the!meaning!of!life but still process that as "the meaning of life". Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On 19 Nov 2020 11:30:29 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:<0b3b01d6beaa$60ee3530$22ca9f90$@mcn.org>) charl...@mcn.org (Charles Mills) wrote: >The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, >which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" >(for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that >would accept parameters of > >'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... > >I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a >character-by-character loop -- input such as > >'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN I'm not overly fond of this suggestion, but I make it in case it's of use: Have you considered a CLIST wrapper? The user invokes a CLIST which parses out the operands, and that calls the REXX program with operands that REXX can understand easily. With sufficient ingenuity you might even make a general preparser in CLIST; if you do, it would probably be welcomed on the CBT tape. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
> very few people use command line TSO though?
I do, all the time. I don't "live" in command line TSO but looking at my PDS
of Rexx commands I see 75 of them (many of which I probably have not used in
years). I have commands to do specialized job submissions. I have commands
that do some particular calculations. And so forth. As I say, I don't "live"
in command line TSO; I run these from ISPF option 6 or more typically with
the TSO command prefix in ISPF.
The particular Rexx I am contemplating would not be for TSO ("real" TSO) at
all. It would be run in batch from IKJEFT01. I want to parse entry arguments
consisting of two quoted strings and some small variable number of unquoted
short tokens.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Nicoll
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:12 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote:
> It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format
> command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage.
>
> I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others
> might disagree.
Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more
common if there's something complicated to do to offer the user an
ispf panel (which will remember previous parameter choices) to set
up the options they want?
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:24:25 +, Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: >No argument. Still, it's hard to beat the flexibility of TSO/CLIST parameter >handling. I wrote a TSO command once partly for kicks. Really complicated. >Pointers to pointers to pointers. When it was done, it was super easy to use. >Sigh. > I encountered a flexibility limitation long ago. I had a Rexx exec such that: o I wanted to execute it from the SYSEXEC/SYSPROC concatenation rather than specifying a data set name. o I wanted to pass it an unconventional argument. "%myrexx argument" failed because IKJPARS reported a syntax error in "argument" exec 'gil.my/sysexec(myrexx)' 'argument' worked but required that users code a data set name. I earnestly wished for a construct, exec *(myrexx) 'argument' by analogy to, call *(mypgm) 'parm' which uses the conventional TASKLIB/STEPLIB/LINKLST search order. Alas, such a form of 'exec' doesn't exist. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
There is an old REXX-callable package called something like XPARSE that uses IKJPARSE. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:24 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? No argument. Still, it's hard to beat the flexibility of TSO/CLIST parameter handling. I wrote a TSO command once partly for kicks. Really complicated. Pointers to pointers to pointers. When it was done, it was super easy to use. Sigh. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Jeremy Nicoll Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 12:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote: > It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO > format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > > I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and > others might disagree. Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want? Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in. > The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing > power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic > "MVS" > (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC > that would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... Why do you need quoted strings? Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So > 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN might become !now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN (I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects a single token as its argument could be given !the!meaning!of!life but still process that as "the meaning of life". Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
> Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing > is making REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's > usable in. Not even close; you're providing a useful facility fo a particular environment, just as ADDRSS XEDIT or ADDRESS CONSOLE does. There is no inconsistency in doing so. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jeremy Nicoll Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 3:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote: > It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format > command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > > I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others > might disagree. Surely very few people use command line TSO though? Isn't it more common if there's something complicated to do to offer the user an ispf panel (which will remember previous parameter choices) to set up the options they want? Also, even if you do make TSO REXX IKJPARS-capable, all you're doing is making REXX inconsistent across all the different subsystems that it's usable in. > The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, > which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" > (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that > would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... Why do you need quoted strings? Something I do in some situations is make the very first character of an arbitrary string a delimiter, and then wherever that same character appears later on, the string gets chopped up on that. So > 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN might become !now isn't the time!nor, is this!MYTOKEN!YOURTOKEN (I also sometimes have an escaped blank character so that an exec that expects a single token as its argument could be given !the!meaning!of!life but still process that as "the meaning of life". Or I pass tokens which are: c2x(whatever) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
IKJPARS has much more functionality than CLIST uses, e.g., it can syntax check the values. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jesse 1 Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:54 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? CLIST has pretty much the same parsing capabilities as TSO. I think that's natural as both types of command processors were developed on the same platform. REXX OTOH was imported to MVS from elsewhere--VM? I miss those TSO/REXX capabilities. I once encountered a 'REXX preamble' that provided those parsing capabilities. Really complex code. I haven't seen it for years. Not sure I would line up today to adapt it for modern use. VM denizens don't even understand this conversation. . . J.O.Skip Robinson Southern California Edison Company Electric Dragon Team Paddler SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager 323-715-0595 Mobile 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW robin...@sce.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:30 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: (External):Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might disagree. The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a character-by-character loop -- input such as 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN Am I missing something? It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to the user. Any suggestions? Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
The REXX parse statement is not one of its strong points; certainly not in the same league as, e.g., Perl. There is an old XPARSE (sp?) package that interfaces REXX to IKJPARS; I wish that IBM would provide a supported version, pre3ferably in a new REXX processor incorporating ANSI and OOREXX language levels. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Charles Mills Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 2:30 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might disagree. The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a character-by-character loop -- input such as 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN Am I missing something? It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to the user. Any suggestions? Charles -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.ikja300/cmdhost.htm Allows z/OS REXX to call various environments and execute their commands. On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 2:03 PM Jesse 1 Robinson wrote: > > Oops. I meant ' TSO/CLIST capabilities'. > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Jesse 1 Robinson > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:54 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: (External):Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** > > CLIST has pretty much the same parsing capabilities as TSO. I think that's > natural as both types of command processors were developed on the same > platform. REXX OTOH was imported to MVS from elsewhere--VM? I miss those > TSO/REXX capabilities. > > I once encountered a 'REXX preamble' that provided those parsing > capabilities. Really complex code. I haven't seen it for years. Not sure I > would line up today to adapt it for modern use. VM denizens don't even > understand this conversation. > > . > . > J.O.Skip Robinson > Southern California Edison Company > Electric Dragon Team Paddler > SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager > 323-715-0595 Mobile > 626-543-6132 Office ⇐=== NEW > robin...@sce.com > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of > Charles Mills > Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2020 11:30 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: (External):Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > *** EXTERNAL EMAIL - Use caution when opening links or attachments *** > > It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format > command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > > I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others might > disagree. > > The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, which > is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" > (for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that > would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... > > I don't see a good way to parse -- without resorting to a > character-by-character loop -- input such as > > 'now isn''t the time', 'nor, is this', MYTOKEN, YOURTOKEN > > Am I missing something? > > It would be great if one could define the expected parameters and their > format to Rexx in some systematic way, parse the user's input, and get back > either parameter values in stem variables, or an error message to present to > the user. > > Any suggestions? > > Charles > > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote:
> I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of
>
> 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ...
One of the drawbacks of a parameter format like that is that it's
not flexible if you have to support optional parameters (unless you
specify null or placeholder values).
I preferred (in NetView automation routines mainly) to use named parms,
not least because it's easier to see which is which, and naming the parms
makes it easier to understand what the execs did (eg in NetView logs).
I wrote and used a routine named #KYWDPRS (keyword parse). It was (in
NetView terms) a "loaded clist" which meant that a copy was held in NV's
storage so there was no disk search overhead in using it.
Callers, eg trying to process an argument string with DEL() and MAX()
values possibly present, would use it like this:
parse arg allparms
hexkr = '#KYWDPRS'("DEL",allparms)
parse var hexkr '!'khex'!'rhex'!'
delay = x2c(khex) ; allparms = x2c(rhex)
if ^datatype(delay,"W") then delay = 1
hexkr = '#KYWDPRS'("MAX",allparms)
parse var hexkr '!'khex'!'rhex'!'
maxno = x2c(khex) ; allparms = x2c(rhex)
if ^datatype(maxno,"W") then maxno = 9
if strip(allparms) \== "" then ... unexpected parms
A local copy that I use on my pc these days, which might not be identical
to the mainframe version - can't tell - is as follows. It looks a LOT better
in a monospaced font...
/* REXX
Aids parsing of text that may contain "keyword(parameter value)" in
any position. Its purpose is to extract a specified keyword's parm
value & return both the value and the remaining text to the caller.
To be recognised "keyword(value)" must be comma-delimited or at the
start/end of the text string, eg "TYPE(2)" will be recognised in:
"TYPE(2)"
"FORMAT(NO),TYPE(2)"
"TYPE(2),USE(YES)"
"FORMAT(NO),TYPE(2),USE(YES)"
but not in: "FORMAT(NO),TYPE(2)-USE(YES)"
Upper-case copies of the incoming keyword and text are used to find
where the keyword's value is, however the value itself is extracted
from the original incoming text, thus allowing mixed-case parameter
values to be identified. In other words, "TYpe(2)" and "tYPe(Id)"
will be located if searching for keyword "type" or "TYPE" while the
returned value will always be what was passed in, eg "2" or "Id".
The exec does not explicity distinguish between a text string which
contains "keyword()" and one with no such parameter, as both return
a null keyword value. However, the remaining text will be shorter
than the incoming text if "keyword()" was found & identical if not.
Rexx lets us return one value to the caller. It must contain a pair
of texts, each of which may contain any (or no) characters. Each of
the texts is converted to its hex representation so that it is null
or a single 'word' of hex digits, then these are delimited by three
exclamation marks.
Call as: hexs = '#KYWDPRS'(kwdm,txtm)
where: kwdm - keyword to be parsed (mixed case ok) eg "Type"
txtm - text to be searched (mixed case ok)
hexs - is !keyword_value_in_hex|remaining_text_in_hex!
*/
signal on syntax ; parse source . invokedby rexxname .
parse arg kwdm,txtm
/* Assume no keyword is present so the keyword-value will be null and */
/* the remaining text will be the same as the incoming text: */
kval = "" ; remt = txtm
/* Define upper-case versions of incoming parameters, and also ensure */
/* we have mixed & upper-case texts with guaranteed enclosing commas: */
kwdu = translate(kwdm) /* eg: "TYPE" */
txtu = translate(txtm) /* eg: "L,TYPE(ID),R" */
s_txtm_s = "," || txtm || "," /* eg: ",L,Type(Id),r,"*/
s_txtu_s = "," || txtu || "," /* eg: ",L,TYPE(ID),R,"*/
/* Define the left & right delimiters that will mark the keyword: */
ldelimit = "," || kwdu || "(" /* eg: ",TYPE("*/
ldelimsz = length(ldelimit)/* eg: 6 */
rdelimit = "),"/* ie: "),"*/
/* We have a valid "keyword(value)" if the left-delimiter is found in */
/* the uppercase comma-enclosed text AND if the right-delimiter is in */
/* the text that follows the left-delimiter: */
l_dlm_at = pos(ldelimit,s_txtu_s)
if l_dlm_at == 0 then signal byebye
flw_ldlm = substr(s_txtu_s, l_dlm_at+ldelimsz)
r_dlm_at = pos(rdelimit,flw_ldlm)
if r_dlm_at == 0 then signal byebye
/* There are three text fragments to locate
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Thanks for the routine. I wholeheartedly agree on keyword parameters! I am a power user of C++ and generally like the language but one of the things I dislike is that I miss the keyword parameters of z/OS macros. I sometimes code C++ calls with comments like x = foo(/* length= */ 3, /* width= */ 17, /* height= */ 12); Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeremy Nicoll Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 6:42 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, at 19:30, Charles Mills wrote: > I am considering an EXEC that would accept parameters of > > 'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... One of the drawbacks of a parameter format like that is that it's not flexible if you have to support optional parameters (unless you specify null or placeholder values). I preferred (in NetView automation routines mainly) to use named parms, not least because it's easier to see which is which, and naming the parms -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:30:02 -0800, Charles Mills wrote: >It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format >command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > >I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others >might disagree. > >The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, >which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" >(for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that >would accept parameters of > >'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... > The UNIX System services comes closer. The command: myrexx 'a quoted string' 'another quoted string' simpletoken1 simpletoken2 ... not only concatenates the tokens into ARG(1) but also assigns them to __ARGV.1, __ARGV.2, __ARGV.3, __ARGV.4, ... Regina has a command line option to select Rexx-like parsing (default) or shell-like parsing. in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option and requiring instead the cumbersome: X.1 = 'It''s a string!' 'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
> in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: >EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! No. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:30:02 -0800, Charles Mills wrote: >It would appear to be a lot of work, but it would seem that "TSO format >command parsing" and Rexx would be a natural marriage. > >I have never used IKJPARS, so I don't claim to be an expert, and others >might disagree. > >The issue I am struggling with is that for all of Rexx's parsing power, >which is of course legendary, it does not seem well-suited to classic "MVS" >(for want of a better term) quoted strings. I am considering an EXEC that >would accept parameters of > >'a quoted string', 'another quoted string', simpletoken1, simpletoken2, ... > The UNIX System services comes closer. The command: myrexx 'a quoted string' 'another quoted string' simpletoken1 simpletoken2 ... not only concatenates the tokens into ARG(1) but also assigns them to __ARGV.1, __ARGV.2, __ARGV.3, __ARGV.4, ... Regina has a command line option to select Rexx-like parsing (default) or shell-like parsing. in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option and requiring instead the cumbersome: X.1 = 'It''s a string!' 'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option and requiring instead the cumbersome: X.1 = 'It''s a string!' 'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Absolutely nothing. EXECIO in TSO/E does its own parsing. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Charles Mills Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:16 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW? Charles -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:34 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option and requiring instead the cumbersome: X.1 = 'It''s a string!' 'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
FYI: EXECIO is supported by MVS and is not part of the TSO extensions/functions of REXX. ADDRESS “MVS” “EXECIO ” It appears to work under TSO, because REXX then passes it to MVS before throughing an error. EXECIO can be used under IRXMVS, but you will need to use BPXWDYN if you want to do dynamic allocation (under OS390, BPXWDYN was part of, and required,USS. As of zOS, this is no longer the case). Sent via Al Ferguson’s iPad > On Nov 23, 2020, at 18:23, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Absolutely nothing. EXECIO in TSO/E does its own parsing. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Charles Mills > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:16 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW? > > Charles > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:34 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > > in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: >EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! > > ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was > a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option > and requiring instead the cumbersome: >X.1 = 'It''s a string!' >'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 21:53:15 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say:
>>EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string!
>No.
>
OK. I forgot to quote it. Anything else?
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:16:50 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:
>Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW?
>
I suspect it's a cultural influence. TSO designers expected programmers
to be so repulsed by the necessarily unbalanced "(" in:
"EXECIO 1 DISKW" "(STRING"
... that they required an assignment and a stem, or a push and pull.
Coming from a background of TECO, I was aghast at the verbosity of
SPF Edit; it felt like composing a program in real time whereas using
an editor should become a motor skill. Example: if I want to delete
several lines containing "foo bar" in vi:
/foo bar
ddnddndd ...
or:
:g/foo bar/d
in ISPF Edit (I think):
x all
f 'foo bar'
del all
reset
Is there a better way? Do I need to hone my skills?
--gil
--
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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
ObSantayanah For your information REXX is part of the TSO/E component of z/OS, and has been part of TSO/E since TSO/E Version 2. That's why https://www-01.ibm.com/servers/resourcelink/svc00100.nsf/pages/zOSV2R4Library?OpenDocument lists z/OS Version 2 Release 4 TSO/E REXX Reference, SA32-0972-40, under z/OS TSO/E. https://www.rexxla.org/links/IBM_historical_pages/rexxtso.html is your friend. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Al Ferguson Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 7:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? FYI: EXECIO is supported by MVS and is not part of the TSO extensions/functions of REXX. ADDRESS “MVS” “EXECIO ” It appears to work under TSO, because REXX then passes it to MVS before throughing an error. EXECIO can be used under IRXMVS, but you will need to use BPXWDYN if you want to do dynamic allocation (under OS390, BPXWDYN was part of, and required,USS. As of zOS, this is no longer the case). Sent via Al Ferguson’s iPad > On Nov 23, 2020, at 18:23, Seymour J Metz wrote: > > Absolutely nothing. EXECIO in TSO/E does its own parsing. > > > -- > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 > > > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of > Charles Mills > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:16 PM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW? > > Charles > > > -Original Message- > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin > Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 10:34 AM > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU > Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? > > > in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say: >EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string! > > ... (any expression). IKJPARS would prohibit this. I suspect this was > a deciding factor in not providing TSO Rexx EXECIO a STRING option > and requiring instead the cumbersome: >X.1 = 'It''s a string!' >'EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (stem X.' > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Quoting it, or using a variable already set to the command, should do it.
Of course, if you're running under Unix System Services then the ANSI I/O
(stream) functions are available, but good old fashioned EXECIO still works.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of
Paul Gilmartin <000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 8:25 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 21:53:15 +, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> in fact, IKJPARS weakens EXECIO. In CMS Rexx, I can simply say:
>>EXECIO 1 DISKW file-spec (string It's a string!
>No.
>
OK. I forgot to quote it. Anything else?
On Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:16:50 -0800, Charles Mills wrote:
>Pardon my ignorance. What does IKJPARS have to do with EXECIO DISKW?
>
I suspect it's a cultural influence. TSO designers expected programmers
to be so repulsed by the necessarily unbalanced "(" in:
"EXECIO 1 DISKW" "(STRING"
... that they required an assignment and a stem, or a push and pull.
Coming from a background of TECO, I was aghast at the verbosity of
SPF Edit; it felt like composing a program in real time whereas using
an editor should become a motor skill. Example: if I want to delete
several lines containing "foo bar" in vi:
/foo bar
ddnddndd ...
or:
:g/foo bar/d
in ISPF Edit (I think):
x all
f 'foo bar'
del all
reset
Is there a better way? Do I need to hone my skills?
--gil
--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
--
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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 00:34, Al Ferguson wrote: > ADDRESS “MVS” “EXECIO ” Why do you have quotes around 'MVS'? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
x all 'foo bar' del all x On Tue, 24 Nov. 2020, 11:25 Paul Gilmartin, < 000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: > > > Example: if I want to delete > several lines containing "foo bar" in vi: > ... > in ISPF Edit (I think): > > x all > f 'foo bar' > del all > reset > > Is there a better way? > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 01:25, Paul Gilmartin wrote:
> I suspect it's a cultural influence. TSO designers expected programmers
> to be so repulsed by the necessarily unbalanced "(" in:
> "EXECIO 1 DISKW" "(STRING"
> ... that they required an assignment and a stem, or a push and pull.
EXECIO started off being a command on CMS systems. Commands there
often took the basic syntax form
command parm .. parm (optional parms [)]
where one could provide a trailing closing bracket but they were usually
missed-out.
The same is true under TSO etc - there's nothing to stop you providing a
closing bracket, if you want one.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
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Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
I don't know why he quoted it, but quoting the environment name is certainly valid. It's probably a matter of local style. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List on behalf of Jeremy Nicoll Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 8:49 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS? On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 00:34, Al Ferguson wrote: > ADDRESS “MVS” “EXECIO ” Why do you have quotes around 'MVS'? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a variable name, which (probable) has not been set, so takes on the value of the variable name in caps. By putting it in caps, and enclosing it in quotes, I save REXX a few steps and it goes directly to the MVS ADDRESS environment to find the EXECIO function. Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance optimizations were actually quite noticeable. Today, you need to do quite a number of them, in a large loop, to see the difference. So today, it is mostly just my fingers memory and for documentation purposes (it sticks out visually more). I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up. Old habits, but again I think more readable. Sent via Al Ferguson’s iPad > On Nov 23, 2020, at 19:57, Peter Vels wrote: > > x all 'foo bar' > del all x > > >> On Tue, 24 Nov. 2020, 11:25 Paul Gilmartin, < >> 000433f07816-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote: >> >> >> >> Example: if I want to delete >> several lines containing "foo bar" in vi: >> ... >> in ISPF Edit (I think): >> >>x all >>f 'foo bar' >>del all >>reset >> >> Is there a better way? >> > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN > -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Has anyone integrated Rexx with IKJPARS?
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020, at 02:20, Al Ferguson wrote: > Performance reasons. Without the quotes REXX first interprets MVS as a > variable name Are you sure? I thought that environment (after address) was one of the few places in REXX where quotes were unnecessary because what's typed there is regarded as a constant. And, that if you actually wanted a variable's value to be used, you'd have to code address value varname > Back in the MVS & MVS/XA Days, these types of performance optimizations > were actually quite noticeable. Even if what you said above was true, I doubt very much that capitalising the environment name would ever have make a measurable difference, bearing in mind how few times one would typically specify an address statement in a typical exec. > I similarly “always” capitalize REXX Key words, to save REXX from > having to spend cycles actually FOLDING then up. It's been years since I wrote any REXX on a mainframe, but I know I didn't uppercase my code back then ... and a quick look at current manuals shows sample code is sometimes in uppercase, and sometimes mixed case. Is this idea that uppercase REXX is more efficient something that everyone here accepts? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
