Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Jousma, David]

We have a sms storclas called scnosms that our team can code so that we can 
direct allocations where we want.

Dave Jousma

Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering


Fifth Third Bank  |  1830 East Paris Ave, SE  |  MD RSCB2H  |  Grand Rapids, MI 
49546

616.653.8429

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri <017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2024 1:27:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

Hey so my SMS coding of ACS routines needs work, but does anyone know if you 
can code this? FILTLIST SYS1 INCLUDE(SYS1. **. #) So that I can code around the 
new z/OSMF removal of the SSA specification? Since IBM has determined the new 
method


Hey so my SMS coding of ACS routines needs work, but does anyone know if you 
can code this?

FILTLIST  SYS1 INCLUDE(SYS1.**.#)   So that I can code 
around the new z/OSMF removal of the SSA specification?

Since IBM has determined the new method just adds a  .# to the end of every 
dataset for allocation?

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 12:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


That's a very good point.  Normally IBM is much better than this when it comes 
to products that you have no choice about using.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

Hey so my SMS coding of ACS routines needs work, but does anyone know if you 
can code this?

FILTLIST  SYS1 INCLUDE(SYS1.**.#)   So that I can code 
around the new z/OSMF removal of the SSA specification?

Since IBM has determined the new method just adds a  .# to the end of every 
dataset for allocation?

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2024 12:08 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


That's a very good point.  Normally IBM is much better than this when it comes 
to products that you have no choice about using.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Brian Westerman]

That's a very good point.  Normally IBM is much better than this when it comes 
to products that you have no choice about using.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

So I just wanted to update everyone as an FYI.

If you ever need to change an option or even a dataset name after you night 
have run a few steps, you would normally get duplicate messages.

Just specify INIT all volumes, The dialog will create those NEW INIT jobs and 
others, but just set them as OVER_RIDE COMPLETE, or run what you need and 
continue.

Doing this I was able to mark all my jobs complete and I am happily working on 
my WORKFLOW dialogs steps.

I understand, some of this is a learning curve, but I think IBM, should add 
some verbiage (or maybe I missed it) on what occurs when you MERGE and/or if 
you specify DO NOT CATALOG on the volumes stage of the deployment steps.  
Because you get a completely different set of jobs.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Shaffer, Terri
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 9:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


My Biggest issue, is there is NO flexibility in z/OSMF Software deployments and 
if you need to change 1 thing, it completely wipes out everything.

They have built in checks for every single dataset, so IF it thinks there is a 
duplicate it stops everything.

In my 40 years in mvs/zos it has gotten very flexible, even SERVERPAC before 
IBM cancelled it, it worked great, maybe in the first year or 2, there were 
limitations but even those had workarounds, like some dataset renames where not 
allowed. But the jobs always got created.

Here I had to go back and change 1 setting to say DO NOT CATALOG, so that 
IEHPROGM statements got built instead of IDCAMS ALTERS and they blasted my 
access to the workflows screens. Now if I try I get duplicates.  I really don’t 
want to spend another 7 hours deleting everything, just to get the upgrade 
workflows

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 9:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


If z/OSMF were an ISV product that you had to pay for, it would not sell very 
well, IMO. There would be trial installs, but very few licenses sold.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.


On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:51 AM Shaffer, Terri < 
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I
> could go back into the dialogs and change things and still continue
> with NO ISSues.
>
> In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my
> WORKFLOW DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!
>
> There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this
> is useless!
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear
> to be completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times
> that since i have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.
> So now I just don't even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the 
> next time.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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> recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are
> those

Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Roberto Halais]

Same for me. Tried Policy Agent config on z/osmf and gave up.
Not an intuitive software.


Politics: Poli (many) - tics (blood sucking parasites)


On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 12:00 PM Colin Paice <
059d4daca697-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> I tried using z/OSMF to set up CS Policy Agent to set up AT-TLS, and
> blogged my experiences here
> <https://colinpaice.blog/2022/06/16/using-z-osmf-workflows-for-tcpip/>.
> It made the easy bits a bit easier, but does not help with the hard stuff.
> It feels like they took a paper process and made a workflow out of it.
> You need to be an expert before you start to understand the flow and
> identify what you need to specify.
> Having been through the workflow it produced JCL which didn't work!
> I gave up because it was easier not to use z/OSMF.
>
> I am a great believer in creating a small configuration which works, so the
> creator can play with it, and understands it.  Then extend it.
>
> Colin
>
> On Fri, 17 May 2024 at 14:17, Mike Shaw  wrote:
>
> > If z/OSMF were an ISV product that you had to pay for, it would not sell
> > very well, IMO. There would be trial installs, but very few licenses
> sold.
> >
> > Mike Shaw
> > MVS/QuickRef Support Group
> > Chicago-Soft, Ltd.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:51 AM Shaffer, Terri <
> > 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I
> could
> > > go back into the dialogs and change things and still continue with NO
> > > ISSues.
> > >
> > > In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my
> > > WORKFLOW DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!
> > >
> > > There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this
> is
> > > useless!
> > >
> > > Ms Terri E Shaffer
> > > Senior Systems Engineer,
> > > z/OS Support:
> > > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> > > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> > > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf
> > > Of Brian Westerman
> > > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
> > > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > > Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
> > >
> > > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> > the
> > > content is safe.
> > >
> > >
> > > The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear to
> > be
> > > completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times that
> > since
> > > i have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.  So now I
> just
> > > don't even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the next
> time.
> > >
> > > --
> > > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> > email
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Colin Paice]

I tried using z/OSMF to set up CS Policy Agent to set up AT-TLS, and
blogged my experiences here
<https://colinpaice.blog/2022/06/16/using-z-osmf-workflows-for-tcpip/>.
It made the easy bits a bit easier, but does not help with the hard stuff.
It feels like they took a paper process and made a workflow out of it.
You need to be an expert before you start to understand the flow and
identify what you need to specify.
Having been through the workflow it produced JCL which didn't work!
I gave up because it was easier not to use z/OSMF.

I am a great believer in creating a small configuration which works, so the
creator can play with it, and understands it.  Then extend it.

Colin

On Fri, 17 May 2024 at 14:17, Mike Shaw  wrote:

> If z/OSMF were an ISV product that you had to pay for, it would not sell
> very well, IMO. There would be trial installs, but very few licenses sold.
>
> Mike Shaw
> MVS/QuickRef Support Group
> Chicago-Soft, Ltd.
>
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:51 AM Shaffer, Terri <
> 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I could
> > go back into the dialogs and change things and still continue with NO
> > ISSues.
> >
> > In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my
> > WORKFLOW DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!
> >
> > There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this is
> > useless!
> >
> > Ms Terri E Shaffer
> > Senior Systems Engineer,
> > z/OS Support:
> > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Brian Westerman
> > Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
> >
> > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the
> > content is safe.
> >
> >
> > The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear to
> be
> > completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times that
> since
> > i have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.  So now I just
> > don't even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the next time.
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email
> > to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> > 
> >  [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <
> > http://www.aciworldwide.com>
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> has
> > misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy
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> >
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

My Biggest issue, is there is NO flexibility in z/OSMF Software deployments and 
if you need to change 1 thing, it completely wipes out everything.

They have built in checks for every single dataset, so IF it thinks there is a 
duplicate it stops everything.

In my 40 years in mvs/zos it has gotten very flexible, even SERVERPAC before 
IBM cancelled it, it worked great, maybe in the first year or 2, there were 
limitations but even those had workarounds, like some dataset renames where not 
allowed. But the jobs always got created.

Here I had to go back and change 1 setting to say DO NOT CATALOG, so that 
IEHPROGM statements got built instead of IDCAMS ALTERS and they blasted my 
access to the workflows screens. Now if I try I get duplicates.  I really don’t 
want to spend another 7 hours deleting everything, just to get the upgrade 
workflows

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Shaw
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 9:16 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


If z/OSMF were an ISV product that you had to pay for, it would not sell very 
well, IMO. There would be trial installs, but very few licenses sold.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.


On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:51 AM Shaffer, Terri < 
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I
> could go back into the dialogs and change things and still continue
> with NO ISSues.
>
> In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my
> WORKFLOW DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!
>
> There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this
> is useless!
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Brian Westerman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear
> to be completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times
> that since i have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.
> So now I just don't even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the 
> next time.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
> [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <
> http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments
> may contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The
> information is intended solely for the designated recipient(s). If an
> addressing or transmission error has misdirected this email, please
> notify the sender immediately and destroy this email. Any review,
> dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by unintended
> recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are
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>
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Mike Shaw]

If z/OSMF were an ISV product that you had to pay for, it would not sell
very well, IMO. There would be trial installs, but very few licenses sold.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.


On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:51 AM Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I could
> go back into the dialogs and change things and still continue with NO
> ISSues.
>
> In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my
> WORKFLOW DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!
>
> There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this is
> useless!
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Brian Westerman
> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear to be
> completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times that since
> i have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.  So now I just
> don't even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the next time.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> 
>  [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] <
> http://www.aciworldwide.com>
> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential,
> proprietary or non-public information. The information is intended solely
> for the designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has
> misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy
> this email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this
> information by unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed
> in this email are those of the author personally.
>
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

But this is why z/OSMF is NOT ready for prime time.  In SERVERPAC I could go 
back into the dialogs and change things and still continue with NO ISSues.

In the garbage called z/OSMF, it wipes out everything.  I lost all my WORKFLOW 
DIALOGS because I had to change the catalog setting Only!!

There needs to be a WAY to create the workflow SCREENS otherwise this is 
useless!

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear to be 
completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times that since i 
have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.  So now I just don't 
even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the next time.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Brian Westerman]

The problem with reporting these types of issues is that they appear to be 
completely ignored.  In my case, I have been told several times that since i 
have a workaround, there is no reason to open an issue.  So now I just don't 
even bother to report them.  I just make a note for the next time.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

Kurt,
  Are your entry into building the configuration and workflows, you make some 
assumptions.

I used a MODEL for then I had to update all my file names to my ZOS31 names and 
volumes.

Then we get to the catalog screen, by default it seems you expect/want (maybe) 
everything cataloged, because that was the default of YES.

The jobs that then get generated and IDCAMS ALTERs from SYS1.*.# names to 
SYS1.* names which cause a conflict with my running system names.

The way I got around this was to specify DO NOT CATALOG, this then generated, 
every job I needed to IEHPROGM RENAMES and cleanup OLD .# NAMES.

But now because I don’t want to re-run all the load jobs again, I am locked out 
of the workflows, because NOW I get duplicate datasets issues.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Kurt Quackenbush
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 8:29 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
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> In job IZUD04RN, they try to alter the name which is failing for me because 
> the end name is already cataloged.

If a data set with that name is already cataloged, then z/OSMF should have 
displayed an error and not generated that deployment JCL.  Off hand I don't 
know why your situation causes this, but please either open a case with IBM 
support, or reach out to me directly, to get to the bottom of it.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> In job IZUD04RN, they try to alter the name which is failing for me because 
> the end name is already cataloged.

If a data set with that name is already cataloged, then z/OSMF should have 
displayed an error and not generated that deployment JCL.  Off hand I don't 
know why your situation causes this, but please either open a case with IBM 
support, or reach out to me directly, to get to the bottom of it.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

Yeah I am going back to my initial impression.  Z/OSMF for software installs is 
garbage.

I had to go back and say DO NOT CATALOG my new ZOS31 datasets.

This then generated all my IEHPROGM jobs to rename every file allocated.

It also generated all the cleanup jobs.

But unless I rerun everything again I cant get to the WORKFLOWS, so I guess I 
will find issues on the fly.

IBM needs a way to read the CPAC.ZOS31.WORKFLOWS dataset and generate a usable 
readable workflow.

The only thing IBM seems to be missing is what are the NEW files in z/OS 3.1 
that don’t exist in z/OS 2.5, they must assume you will always generate a NEW 
Master catalog.

I have not had to do that in over 15 years, still have all my jobs, but useless 
work when upgrading software

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 2:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


z/OSMF is not in it's infancy, it's been around for several years now, it's new 
to force z/OS installs with it.  I have now installed my 22nd z/OS install with 
z/OSMF, (hundreds with Serverpak) and I can tell you that It has gone 
increasingly downhill over especially the past year or so.  The ability to 
change values (dataset sizes and other attributes) has gone from limited, to 
okay back to limited again.

It's not a "bad" way to install, but it's not as flexible as serverpak and it 
doesn't seem to get any better over time, every new install seems to take a 
small step backwards.  Sending in problem reports about the issues seems to be 
totally ignored.  Especially if you tell IBM about the problem and then also 
give them a work-around.  The attitude seems to be, "well, if you got around 
it, then why is it a problem?"

Sigh,

Brian

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

Okay so riddle me this with IBM's new approach to software installs.

So to load the software they allocate everything with a .# on the end of the 
names, So SYS1.LINKLIB.#, etc...

All the jobs to load all files have completed and ZFS's are now loaded.

I now want my end names to be SYS1.xx

In job IZUD04RN, they try to alter the name which is failing for me because the 
end name is already cataloged.

The old serverpac use to do IEHPROGM, then do the idcams Define for indirect 
cataloging, etc.

So how is this supposed to work now?


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Brian Westerman
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 2:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


z/OSMF is not in it's infancy, it's been around for several years now, it's new 
to force z/OS installs with it.  I have now installed my 22nd z/OS install with 
z/OSMF, (hundreds with Serverpak) and I can tell you that It has gone 
increasingly downhill over especially the past year or so.  The ability to 
change values (dataset sizes and other attributes) has gone from limited, to 
okay back to limited again.

It's not a "bad" way to install, but it's not as flexible as serverpak and it 
doesn't seem to get any better over time, every new install seems to take a 
small step backwards.  Sending in problem reports about the issues seems to be 
totally ignored.  Especially if you tell IBM about the problem and then also 
give them a work-around.  The attitude seems to be, "well, if you got around 
it, then why is it a problem?"

Sigh,

Brian

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Brian Westerman]

z/OSMF is not in it's infancy, it's been around for several years now, it's new 
to force z/OS installs with it.  I have now installed my 22nd z/OS install with 
z/OSMF, (hundreds with Serverpak) and I can tell you that It has gone 
increasingly downhill over especially the past year or so.  The ability to 
change values (dataset sizes and other attributes) has gone from limited, to 
okay back to limited again.  

It's not a "bad" way to install, but it's not as flexible as serverpak and it 
doesn't seem to get any better over time, every new install seems to take a 
small step backwards.  Sending in problem reports about the issues seems to be 
totally ignored.  Especially if you tell IBM about the problem and then also 
give them a work-around.  The attitude seems to be, "well, if you got around 
it, then why is it a problem?"

Sigh,

Brian

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Jousma, David]

Ok, so I will speak out to my positive experiences….

I’m personally not in favor of a GUI for the sake of a GUI without bringing 
advantages to the table.   But I have become a ZOSMF fan more recently.

Serverpac – On the ISPF panels, old process, I could have the entire process 
laid down, and complete in less than a day, that is massaging the new config by 
merging the prior, and then doing the customizations.  Did zOS 3.1 Serverpac on 
z/OSMF and that process even got more simple.   Yea, took a bit of time to get 
used to the workflows, but it really was good.  Still took about half a day, 
mostly because the jobs to load the datasets just takes a long time, but it was 
easy.   Did I have to adapt?  Sure, but I’m not that stuck in my ways to not 
adapt to a new process.

ZCX management – provisioning, upgrading, etc – Once you put your local values 
in, you click go, and it’s done in like 10 minutes.   There is no way I’d want 
to do what that workflow does manually.  We are running a Rocket Terminal 
Emulator – Web in a 6 node cluster to get our feet wet.I am playing with 
Omegamon TEPS in ZCX cluster.   When IBM releases a docker version of Omegamon 
TEMS, then we’ll move both the TEMS and TEPS off of the AIX box its running on 
today.

Network Configuration assistant for Policy agent – very nice cannot live 
without.

What I *wish* IBM would adopt?   All of these other IBM products that make you 
install/maintain an entirely separate product to provide their GUI interfaces 
should be building ZOSMF plug-in’s.   Im talking about TWS dynamic workload 
console, GDPS Gui interface, Omegamon TEPS, IBM Storage insights, etc

Especially frustrating (at least in our shop) is when a mainframe based tool 
needs a Windows or Linux server instance to complete the installation.   The 
amount of red-tape to get something provisioned is extremely heavy.   This is 
part of the reason I personally have been getting educated in ZCX and docker 
containers.   If I can put up a container on my machine, and maintain it as 
part of our infrastructure, its way less headaches.

Anyway my opinion, FWIW.

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
william janulin <008d52e04f2e-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu>
Date: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 10:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations
I thought this product was ti simplify the process. . . . . make the job 
easier? Sorry, Bill J.   On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 09: 16: 10 AM EDT, 
Shaffer, Terri <017d5f778222-dmarc-request@ listserv. ua. edu> wrote: No 
sure what I did is


 I thought this product was ti simplify the process.make the job easier?

Sorry, Bill J.

On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 09:16:10 AM EDT, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:



 No sure what I did is a sledgehammer approach as I had to edit the SERVERPAC 
JCL on many occasions also, because the defined jobs didnt work in my 
configuration and setup.



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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

Actually I don't mind z/OSMF now, but just like the infancy of serverpac, like 
originally not allowing dataset name changes on what were deemed IPL datasets 
and other changes I needed for my shop, IBM cant assume everything works as 
their test environment does or that space is unlimited.

If they decide not be flexible, so be it, I can edit the JCL and have my work 
around like before.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
william janulin
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 10:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


 I thought this product was ti simplify the process.make the job easier?
Sorry, Bill J.
On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 09:16:10 AM EDT, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

 No sure what I did is a sledgehammer approach as I had to edit the SERVERPAC 
JCL on many occasions also, because the defined jobs didnt work in my 
configuration and setup.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
rpinion865
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 8:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


When all else fails, use a sledge hammer!




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Wednesday, May 15th, 2024 at 8:50 AM, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So this is my first real time using zOSMF for a software installation. So I 
> have a few complaints.
>
> First No SSA is being used, IBM decided to tack on a .# to every dataset, 
> HATE this and I modified it.
>
> I have SMS rules already defined for SYS1SSA, so I changed my configuration 
> layout to my SYS1 datasets are now SYS1SSA.SYS1.
>
> This allowed my already setup SMS rules to function.
>
> NEXT they don't allow an already added defined ZFS for workdir to be used, 
> they wanted to allocate at 14451 cylinder dataset. Not going to happen.
>
> I already have 2 full MOD-27 defined for SMPNTS and UNZIP space.
>
> So I edited the BUILT JCL and deleted every place they tried to define and 
> use /tmp and pointed to my already defined work space!
>
> And my jobs are happily running now..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
>
> 
> [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg]
> http://www.aciworldwide.com
>
> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary 
> or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the 
> designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has 
> misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this 
> email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by 
> unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are 
> those of the author personally.
>
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[william janulin]

 I thought this product was ti simplify the process.make the job easier?
Sorry, Bill J. 
On Wednesday, May 15, 2024 at 09:16:10 AM EDT, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:  
 
 No sure what I did is a sledgehammer approach as I had to edit the SERVERPAC 
JCL on many occasions also, because the defined jobs didnt work in my 
configuration and setup.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
rpinion865
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 8:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


When all else fails, use a sledge hammer!




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Wednesday, May 15th, 2024 at 8:50 AM, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So this is my first real time using zOSMF for a software installation. So I 
> have a few complaints.
>
> First No SSA is being used, IBM decided to tack on a .# to every dataset, 
> HATE this and I modified it.
>
> I have SMS rules already defined for SYS1SSA, so I changed my configuration 
> layout to my SYS1 datasets are now SYS1SSA.SYS1.
>
> This allowed my already setup SMS rules to function.
>
> NEXT they don't allow an already added defined ZFS for workdir to be used, 
> they wanted to allocate at 14451 cylinder dataset. Not going to happen.
>
> I already have 2 full MOD-27 defined for SMPNTS and UNZIP space.
>
> So I edited the BUILT JCL and deleted every place they tried to define and 
> use /tmp and pointed to my already defined work space!
>
> And my jobs are happily running now..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
>
> 
> [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg]
> http://www.aciworldwide.com
>
> This email message and any attachments may contain confidential, proprietary 
> or non-public information. The information is intended solely for the 
> designated recipient(s). If an addressing or transmission error has 
> misdirected this email, please notify the sender immediately and destroy this 
> email. Any review, dissemination, use or reliance upon this information by 
> unintended recipients is prohibited. Any opinions expressed in this email are 
> those of the author personally.
>
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> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[Shaffer, Terri]

No sure what I did is a sledgehammer approach as I had to edit the SERVERPAC 
JCL on many occasions also, because the defined jobs didnt work in my 
configuration and setup.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
rpinion865
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2024 8:56 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


When all else fails, use a sledge hammer!




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Wednesday, May 15th, 2024 at 8:50 AM, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So this is my first real time using zOSMF for a software installation. So I 
> have a few complaints.
>
> First No SSA is being used, IBM decided to tack on a .# to every dataset, 
> HATE this and I modified it.
>
> I have SMS rules already defined for SYS1SSA, so I changed my configuration 
> layout to my SYS1 datasets are now SYS1SSA.SYS1.
>
> This allowed my already setup SMS rules to function.
>
> NEXT they don't allow an already added defined ZFS for workdir to be used, 
> they wanted to allocate at 14451 cylinder dataset. Not going to happen.
>
> I already have 2 full MOD-27 defined for SMPNTS and UNZIP space.
>
> So I edited the BUILT JCL and deleted every place they tried to define and 
> use /tmp and pointed to my already defined work space!
>
> And my jobs are happily running now..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
>
> 
> [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg]
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Re: zOSMF - Installing z/OS 3.1 Observations

[rpinion865]

When all else fails, use a sledge hammer!




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Wednesday, May 15th, 2024 at 8:50 AM, Shaffer, Terri 
<017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> So this is my first real time using zOSMF for a software installation. So I 
> have a few complaints.
> 
> First No SSA is being used, IBM decided to tack on a .# to every dataset, 
> HATE this and I modified it.
> 
> I have SMS rules already defined for SYS1SSA, so I changed my configuration 
> layout to my SYS1 datasets are now SYS1SSA.SYS1.
> 
> This allowed my already setup SMS rules to function.
> 
> NEXT they don’t allow an already added defined ZFS for workdir to be used, 
> they wanted to allocate at 14451 cylinder dataset. Not going to happen.
> 
> I already have 2 full MOD-27 defined for SMPNTS and UNZIP space.
> 
> So I edited the BUILT JCL and deleted every place they tried to define and 
> use /tmp and pointed to my already defined work space!
> 
> And my jobs are happily running now..
> 
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> 
> 
> 
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> http://www.aciworldwide.com
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Re: zOSMF startup on 3.1

[Pommier, Rex]

Thank you, Brian and David.  That was the issue.  We brought our IZUPRM0 over 
from 2.4.  The sample in SAMPLIB has java 11 listed as the java_home.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Jousma, David
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 1:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF startup on 3.1

Seems to say here that you need JAVA V17 on z/OS V3.1:  
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=installation-software-requirements-running-zos-31__;!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!oufMGxBu5eLmPTCi_YsNI43zS6uHpDgul4EBpg0l2nj_YuL-K5v3xMqqSopQXrgC1kAgBrgYdzTU1m1-gNqEz8SZ9tRjRZWcnxVm$
  If you already have that installed, just change your JAVA_HOME and give it a 
shot.

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Pommier, Rex 
Date: Friday, April 19, 2024 at 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: zOSMF startup on 3.1
Hello list, Just IPLed z/OS 3. 1 on our sandbox and tried to start zOSMF. The 
angel process started but the server process fails. I compared file permissions 
in the /global/zosmf directories between my 2. 4 system and 3. 1 system and 
they're the


Hello list,



Just IPLed z/OS 3.1 on our sandbox and tried to start zOSMF.  The angel process 
started but the server process fails.  I compared file permissions in the 
/global/zosmf directories between my 2.4 system and 3.1 system and they're the 
same.  The server is failing in the IZUSVR1 step with a cond code 2048.



STDOUT output:

Launching zosmfServer (z/OSMF 3.1.0/wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900) on IBM J9 
VM, version 8.0.8.20 - pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20) (en_US)

ÝAUDIT   ¨ CWWKE0001I: The server zosmfServer has been launched.

CWWKE0005E: The runtime environment could not be launched.

CWWKE0018E: An exception occurred while launching the runtime environment: 
java.lang.NullPointerException



STDERR output:

TRAS3005E: Failed to write messages to the 
/global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/logs/messages.log file.

com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.LaunchException: Caught unexpected exception 
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Error initializing storage for Equinox 
container.

 at 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.rethrowException(KernelBootstrap.java:734)

 at com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.go(KernelBootstrap.java:222)

 "and several continuations of this error"



The first message in the STDERR says it couldn't write to the messages.log 
file.  That is incorrect.  Here's the output from that file:



product = z/OSMF 3.1.0 (wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900)

wlp.install.dir = /usr/lpp/liberty_zos/23.0.0.3/

server.config.dir = /global/zosmf/configuration/servers/zosmfServer/

server.output.dir = /global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/

java.home = /usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64

java.version = 1.8.0_401

java.runtime = Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (8.0.8.20 - 
pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20))

os = z/OS (03.01.00; s390x) (en_US)

process = 16777379@TSTJES2

Classpath = 
/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/ws-launch.jar:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/..

/../../../lib/bootstrap-agent.jar

Java Library path = 
/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/compressedrefs:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/c

ompressedrefs:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/native/zos/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/bin/classic:$LIBPAT

H:/usr/lpp/tcpip/lib:/usr/lpp/gskssl/IBM:/usr/lpp/wbem/lib:/lib:/usr/lib



[4/19/24 17:33:43:388 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   A CWWKE0001I: The 
server zosmfServer has been launched.

[4/19/24 17:33:43:428 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   I CWWKE0940I: The 
zOSMFReg product

extension has a product identifier of com.ibm.zoszmf and a product installation 
location of /usr/lpp/zosmf/defaults. This product extension

 was enabled by specifying the WLP_PRODUCT_EXT_DIR environment variable.

[4/19/24 17:33:43:688 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.logging.internal.impl.IncidentImplI FFDC1015I: An 
FFDC Incident has

been created: "java.lang.IllegalStateException: Error initializing storage for 
Equinox container. com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.F

rameworkManager 678" at ffdc_24.04.19_15.50.44.0.log





I noticed it is running java 8 where I have java 11 and 17 installed.  Does 
zOSMF work on 3.1 with java 8?



Any idea what I may be missing here?



TIA

Rex



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Re: zOSMF startup on 3.1

[Wissink, Brad]

Is that the correct java.home path /usr/lpp/java/j8.0_64.Mayb need a 
capital 'J' ->  /usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64

Brad Wissink| Sr. Systems Programmer
Sammons® Financial Group Member Companies
8300 Mills Civic Parkway, West Des Moines, Ia 50266
Phone 515-267-2735 | ext. 33735 | Cell: 515-231-1511 

bwiss...@sfgmembers.com  | www.SammonsFinancialGroup.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2024 12:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] zOSMF startup on 3.1

Hello list,

Just IPLed z/OS 3.1 on our sandbox and tried to start zOSMF.  The angel process 
started but the server process fails.  I compared file permissions in the 
/global/zosmf directories between my 2.4 system and 3.1 system and they're the 
same.  The server is failing in the IZUSVR1 step with a cond code 2048.  

STDOUT output:
Launching zosmfServer (z/OSMF 3.1.0/wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900) on IBM J9 
VM, version 8.0.8.20 - pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20) (en_US)  
ÝAUDIT   ¨ CWWKE0001I: The server zosmfServer has been launched.
   
CWWKE0005E: The runtime environment could not be launched.  
   
CWWKE0018E: An exception occurred while launching the runtime environment: 
java.lang.NullPointerException  

STDERR output:
TRAS3005E: Failed to write messages to the 
/global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/logs/messages.log file. 
 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.LaunchException: Caught unexpected exception 
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Error initializing storage for Equinox 
container.
 at 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.rethrowException(KernelBootstrap.java:734)
  
 at 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.go(KernelBootstrap.java:222)

 "and several continuations of this error"

The first message in the STDERR says it couldn't write to the messages.log 
file.  That is incorrect.  Here's the output from that file:


product = z/OSMF 3.1.0 (wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900) 

wlp.install.dir = /usr/lpp/liberty_zos/23.0.0.3/

server.config.dir = /global/zosmf/configuration/servers/zosmfServer/

server.output.dir = /global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/

java.home = /usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64   

java.version = 1.8.0_401

java.runtime = Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (8.0.8.20 - 
pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20))
os = z/OS (03.01.00; s390x) (en_US) 

process = 16777379@TSTJES2  

Classpath = 
/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/ws-launch.jar:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/..
/../../../lib/bootstrap-agent.jar   

Java Library path = 
/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/compressedrefs:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/c
ompressedrefs:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/native/zos/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/bin/classic:$LIBPAT
H:/usr/lpp/tcpip/lib:/usr/lpp/gskssl/IBM:/usr/lpp/wbem/lib:/lib:/usr/lib



[4/19/24 17:33:43:388 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   A CWWKE0001I: The 
server zosmfServer has been launched.   
 
[4/19/24 17:33:43:428 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   I CWWKE0940I: The 
zOSMFReg product 
extension has a product identifier of com.ibm.zoszmf and a product installation 
location of /usr/lpp/zosmf/defaults. This product extension
 was enabled by specifying the WLP_PRODUCT_EXT_DIR environment variable.
 
[4/19/24 

Re: zOSMF startup on 3.1

[Brian Westerman]

No it doesn't, you have to use  the new Java. 

When I installed 3.1 the first time, I found that they did not automatically 
create several of the directories.  I ended up just going through the log and 
fixing things one at a time.  Some of the errors were permission related.  I 
ended up doing CHMOD a lot.

I eventually got it working.  The next couple of installs still had issues but 
not as many, but as they fixed issues with ZOSMF, they created more issues with 
the other parts of the install.  

It never seems to get any better, it's almost like they are moving the problems 
around to keep us on our toes.

Brian

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Re: zOSMF startup on 3.1

[Jousma, David]

Seems to say here that you need JAVA V17 on z/OS V3.1:  
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/3.1.0?topic=installation-software-requirements-running-zos-31
 If you already have that installed, just change your JAVA_HOME and give it a 
shot.

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Pommier, Rex 
Date: Friday, April 19, 2024 at 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: zOSMF startup on 3.1
Hello list, Just IPLed z/OS 3. 1 on our sandbox and tried to start zOSMF. The 
angel process started but the server process fails. I compared file permissions 
in the /global/zosmf directories between my 2. 4 system and 3. 1 system and 
they're the


Hello list,



Just IPLed z/OS 3.1 on our sandbox and tried to start zOSMF.  The angel process 
started but the server process fails.  I compared file permissions in the 
/global/zosmf directories between my 2.4 system and 3.1 system and they're the 
same.  The server is failing in the IZUSVR1 step with a cond code 2048.



STDOUT output:

Launching zosmfServer (z/OSMF 3.1.0/wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900) on IBM J9 
VM, version 8.0.8.20 - pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20) (en_US)

ÝAUDIT   ¨ CWWKE0001I: The server zosmfServer has been launched.

CWWKE0005E: The runtime environment could not be launched.

CWWKE0018E: An exception occurred while launching the runtime environment: 
java.lang.NullPointerException



STDERR output:

TRAS3005E: Failed to write messages to the 
/global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/logs/messages.log file.

com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.LaunchException: Caught unexpected exception 
java.lang.IllegalStateException: Error initializing storage for Equinox 
container.

 at 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.rethrowException(KernelBootstrap.java:734)

 at com.ibm.ws.kernel.boot.internal.KernelBootstrap.go(KernelBootstrap.java:222)

 "and several continuations of this error"



The first message in the STDERR says it couldn't write to the messages.log 
file.  That is incorrect.  Here's the output from that file:



product = z/OSMF 3.1.0 (wlp-1.0.75.cl230320230319-1900)

wlp.install.dir = /usr/lpp/liberty_zos/23.0.0.3/

server.config.dir = /global/zosmf/configuration/servers/zosmfServer/

server.output.dir = /global/zosmf/data/logs/zosmfServer/

java.home = /usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64

java.version = 1.8.0_401

java.runtime = Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (8.0.8.20 - 
pmz6480sr8fp20-20240112_01(SR8 FP20))

os = z/OS (03.01.00; s390x) (en_US)

process = 16777379@TSTJES2

Classpath = 
/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/ws-launch.jar:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/..

/../../../lib/bootstrap-agent.jar

Java Library path = 
/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/compressedrefs:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/lib/s390x/c

ompressedrefs:/usr/lpp/zosmf/liberty/lib/native/zos/s390x/../../../../lib/native/zos/s390x:/usr/lpp/java/J8.0_64/bin/classic:$LIBPAT

H:/usr/lpp/tcpip/lib:/usr/lpp/gskssl/IBM:/usr/lpp/wbem/lib:/lib:/usr/lib



[4/19/24 17:33:43:388 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   A CWWKE0001I: The 
server zosmfServer has been launched.

[4/19/24 17:33:43:428 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.FrameworkManager   I CWWKE0940I: The 
zOSMFReg product

extension has a product identifier of com.ibm.zoszmf and a product installation 
location of /usr/lpp/zosmf/defaults. This product extension

 was enabled by specifying the WLP_PRODUCT_EXT_DIR environment variable.

[4/19/24 17:33:43:688 GMT] 0001 
com.ibm.ws.logging.internal.impl.IncidentImplI FFDC1015I: An 
FFDC Incident has

been created: "java.lang.IllegalStateException: Error initializing storage for 
Equinox container. com.ibm.ws.kernel.launch.internal.F

rameworkManager 678" at ffdc_24.04.19_15.50.44.0.log





I noticed it is running java 8 where I have java 11 and 17 installed.  Does 
zOSMF work on 3.1 with java 8?



Any idea what I may be missing here?



TIA

Rex



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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Robert S. Hansel (RSH)]

Hi Peter,

You might also find my presentation on SDSF and RACF helpful, which I just 
posted on my website.

https://www.rshconsulting.com/RSHpres/RSH_Consulting__SDSF_and_RACF__November_2023.pdf

Regards, Bob

Robert S. Hansel
Lead RACF Specialist
RSH Consulting, Inc.
617-969-8211
www.linkedin.com/in/roberthansel 
www.rshconsulting.com 

Upcoming RSH RACF Training - WebEx
- RACF Level I Administration - DEC 4-8, 2023
- RACF Level II Administration - MAR 18-22, 2024
- RACF Level III Admin, Audit, & Compliance - APR 8-12, 2024
- RACF - Securing z/OS UNIX  - FEB 26 - MAR 1, 2024
-

-Original Message-
Date:Sun, 3 Dec 2023 08:39:08 +0400
From:Peter 
Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

Hello Rob

Thank you so much for your response

Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
to RACF ?

Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
any automation tool.

Peter

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott  wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>
> ISFPRMx  just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>
> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>
> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS and
> JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process,  and you should allow many weeks for
> testing and validation.
>
> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad range
> of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>
> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
> right direction if you want.
>
> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>
> Rob Scott
> Rocket Software
>
> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
> Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Peter 
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
> Good morning
>
> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS instead
> we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.
>
> Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?
>
> Peter
>

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Mark Zelden]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2023 08:44:01 +, Rob Scott  wrote:

>Mark
>
>The original APAR (PH49811)  that introduced the ISFNTCNV tool and the 
>ISFRACEX sample RACF starter set was rolled back to z/OS 2.4.
>

Hi Rob,

Thanks.  I'll have a look and pass on the information to people who have been 
coming
to me about the 9 migrations I did.  

Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Rob Scott]

Mark

The original APAR (PH49811)  that introduced the ISFNTCNV tool and the ISFRACEX 
sample RACF starter set was rolled back to z/OS 2.4.

I am pleased to hear that the ISFRACEX starter set proved useful, we are 
strongly suggesting its use (along with reading the “SDSF Security – How does 
it work on z/OS 2.5+” presentation) to all customers attempting the migration.

Rob Scott
Rocket Software

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mark Zelden
Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2023 9:33 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

EXTERNAL EMAIL



A day late and a dollar short. :-) Although you did get me a REXX exec or two 
to help since
ISFACR would not work in my sysplexes at all except a small monoplex. I didn't 
end up
using them though as it turned out and starting from scratch and implementing
security was a much better approach for me than converting ancient ISFPRMxx
parms (that were originally assembled parms) into RACF definitions.

Shouldn't this APAR (or APARs) be rolled down to z/OS 2.4 considering z/OS 2.5
forces external security? The conversion / migration has to be done prior to
z/OS 2.5.

About about my experience with a large client environment:

Mostly I had to worry about SDSF class profiles since OPERCMDS was protected in 
all
my sysplexes. WRITER had a mix and JESSPOOL was protected on about half
of 9 sysplexes. However, everyone pretty much had read access to everything in
spool and only SYSPROGs and operators had "all" access, so that was not hard
to figure out. One system had payroll jobs protected and I was all set up to
implement that via RACF protection in JESSPOOL, but then I found out that 
payroll
was not run on the mainframe in 15 years and didn't do it.

For the SDSF part, I used ISF.SISFEXEC(ISFRAC) as a starting point and did 
everything
from scratch keeping in mind all the things I read from the migration manual 
and some
of the things I saw in ISFACR from the one monoplex it worked on. While this 
kept
me up at nights for months when I found out after I started working on z/OS 
2.5, after
the first sysplex was done it turned out to not be "a big deal" since I had a 
good templates
to work from. So I do recommend reading that migration manual and really 
understanding
what this conversion means.

One of my "lessons learned" for other or for future migrations, was to "read 
about
destination operator authority" because JESSPOOL rules will not work as you 
intend
and the ISFRAC sample enabled that for operators / sysprogs,

I went from as many as 60 groups in ISFPRMxx in on sysplex down to 3 per the 
samples,
but honestly you can get away one a single group as the parms are almost 
meaningless
once you are using full external security or at z/OS 2.5. My 3 groups look the 
exact
same in all my sysplexes except for DADFLT which I modeled after existing 
"sysprog",
"operator", "other" groups in ISFPRMxx prior to conversion.

Another thing I did was get rid of all hard coded panels / displays that were 
20+ years
old. Most were secondary displays so no one really noticed except that the 
defaults
have mixed case column headings. One sysplex did have some primary panels and
I had one group of users (print operators) complain right after the conversion 
that
removed the custom panels, but part of the implementation plan included
instructions on how to use "arrange", so in the end they were fine and agreed
to leave it as is after I explained the benefits and the 20 additional fields 
they
had their display now. (Even found a very old post from Skip Robinson explaining
the same thing I told them).

My only real complaint about all of this is that it caught me by surprise. The 
requirement
was announced at the last possible time it could - the last quarterly 
announcement for z/OS 2.4
enhancements (I think) as a statement of direction. I always look at those 
announcements
for enhancements but don't normally pay close attention to the statements of 
direction
if in there. I would have thought something "this big" would have been in the 
z/OS 2.4
announcement in the "Statements of direction" section and that would have given 
me 2 years
to plan and execute. As it was, for me it delayed z/OS 2.5 migrations for 6-9 
months
depending on the sysplex. Mostly in getting a game plan for all the sysplexes
I was supporting and doing the first migration in a big sysplex outside
of sandbox. Once I did the first one, the others were done within a few months.

BTW, I did have 2 ACF2 monoplex LPARs to migrate also. I translated the ISFACR 
sample
to ACF2 and Broadcom also had several documents / web pages about the migration.
In some ways, they did a better job explaining it and simplifying it than IBM 
did.

One last thing: I created all the RACF definitions and prep via PDS members to 
be
executed at migration time. The RACF admins just ha

Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Mark Zelden]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2023 15:33:16 -0600, Mark Zelden  wrote:




>My only real complaint about all of this is that it caught me by surprise.  
>The requirement
>was announced at the last possible time it could - the last quarterly 
>announcement for z/OS 2.4
>enhancements (I think) as a statement of direction.   I always look at those 
>announcements
>for enhancements but don't normally pay close attention to the statements of 
>direction
>if in there.  I would have thought something "this big" would have been in the 
>z/OS 2.4
>announcement in the "Statements of direction" section and that would have 
>given me 2 years
>to plan and execute. 


Before the announcement police correct me, I will correct myself.  It was the 
z/OS 2.4
2020 Q3 enhancements.  There were still 3 more after that for z/OS 2.4.  
However,
it was not in the z/OS 2.4 availability announcement and that is where I have 
always
seen major upcoming changes announced in the statements of direction,
some of them have had multiple releases of "warnings", 

https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/announcements/zos-v24-3q-enhancements?region=US

Regards,

Mark
--
Mark Zelden - Zelden Consulting Services - z/OS, OS/390 and MVS
ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Mark Zelden]

's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html

  

On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 08:57:41 +, Rob Scott  wrote:

>Peter
>
>The latest APAR for the new sample and REXX is :
>
>PH55420
>
>Included is a starter set sequence  f RACF commands to implement a simple SDSF 
>security setup assuming three types of users : sysprogs, operators and general 
>users.
>Also included is a REXX exec that takes SDSF “NTBL/NTBLENT” statements from 
>ISFPRMxx and converts them to profile definitions for JESSPOOL resources.
>
>We find that the above is sufficient for most customers to get started.
>
>All SDSF presentations from Share and GSE can be found at the IBM education 
>github :
>
>https///github.com/IBM/IBM-Z-zOS/tree/main/zOS-Education/
>
>Checktut the 2.5 and 3.1 folders and look for the “SDSF Security – How does it 
>work on z/OS 2.5+” slide deck.
>
>We also found that once customers understand what SDSF is doing under the 
>covers for the various panels and actions, the migration makes much more sense.
>
>I hope the above is helpful
>
>Rob Scott
>Rocket Software
>
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Peter
>Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 4:09 PM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>
>EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
>
>
>Well I was ab e tf find a utility developed by rocket software ISFACR and
>it helped me to generate some commands which were required as part of my
>migration
>
>found that already my system had OPERCMDS enabled but other Classes were
>not activated.
>
>The generated command also deletes the existing OPERCMDS profile which I
>will skip and run others if it is required
>
>
>
>On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 8:39 AM Peter 
>mailto:dbajava...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hello Rob
>>
>> Thank you so much for your response
>>
>> Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
>> to RACF ?
>>
>> Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
>> any automation tool.
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott 
>> mailto:rsc...@rocketsoftware.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
>>> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>>>
>>> ISFPRMx just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
>>> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
>>> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>>>
>>> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
>>> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
>>> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
>>> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>>>
>>> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS
>>> and JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process, and you should allow many weeks for
>>> testing and validation.
>>>
>>> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad
>>> range of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>>>
>>> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
>>> right direction if you want.
>>>
>>> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
>>> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
>>> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>>>
>>> Rob Scott
>>> Rocket Software
>>>
>>> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
>>> Sent from Outlook for 
>>> Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>>
>>> 
>>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>>> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> on behalf
>>> of Peter mailto:dbajava...@gmail.com>>
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
>>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> 
>>> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>>
>>> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>>>
>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello All
>>>
>>> Good morning
>>>
>>> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
>>> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
>>> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class

Re: zOSMF install

[Art Gutowski]

You may need to configure and stand up z/OSMF on z/OS 3.1 for other z/OS 3.1 
capabilities, but you don't need to configure it to install z/OS 3.1.  CBPDO is 
still available as an installation option.

Art Gutowski


On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 16:23:34 +, Pommier, Rex  wrote:

>Hi Richard, 
>
>I know I need zOSMF to install 3.1.  My question is, in essence, can (or 
>should) I order and install a stand-alone zOSMF 3.1 and use that for my z/OS 
>3.1 install or am I better off (or is this the only option) installing zOSMF 
>2.4 before even heading down the 3.1 path?
>
>Thanks again,
>Rex
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Richard McIntosh
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:10 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF install
>
>You need zOSMF to install 3.1.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
>Pommier, Rex
>Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:07 AM
>To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>Subject: [External] : zOSMF install
>
>Hi all,
>
>Just looking for opinions on this.
>
>Scenario is we're running z/OS 2.4.  We don't have zOSMF installed.  Sometime 
>next year we're going to migrate to 3.1.  Would we be better off 
>installing/implementing zOSMF 2.4 today in preparation for installing 3.1 or 
>should we install zOSMF 3.1 and implement that before installing z/OS 3.1?  
>Can we even install zOSMF 3.1 without having a running zOSMF install already?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rex

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Re: zOSMF install

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Short answer. Yes. Do it now.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: zOSMF install

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don’t click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Hi all,

Just looking for opinions on this.

Scenario is we're running z/OS 2.4.  We don't have zOSMF installed.  Sometime 
next year we're going to migrate to 3.1.  Would we be better off 
installing/implementing zOSMF 2.4 today in preparation for installing 3.1 or 
should we install zOSMF 3.1 and implement that before installing z/OS 3.1?  Can 
we even install zOSMF 3.1 without having a running zOSMF install already?

Thanks,

Rex

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Re: zOSMF install

[Pommier, Rex]

Hi Kurt,

Thank you.  That is exactly the answer I needed.  We installed 2.4 with a 
ServerPac and as I am just starting down the implementation path of zOSMF, my 
manager asked me to find out if we should try to get the 3.1 zOSMF stand-alone 
and install that first.  Your response confirmed that I just need to continue 
with implementing the 2.4 zOSMF.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Kurt Quackenbush
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:36 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF install


> I know I need zOSMF to install 3.1.  My question is, in essence, can (or 
> should) I order and install a stand-alone zOSMF 3.1 and use that for my z/OS 
> 3.1 install or am I better off (or is this the only option) installing zOSMF 
> 2.4 before even heading down the 3.1 path?

Did you install z/OS 2.4 using ServerPac?  If so, then unless you specifically 
deleted it, you already have z/OSMF installed on your z/OS 2.4.  You may not 
have it configured and running, but it should be there.  If it is present, then 
recommend configuring and starting the z/OSMF server on your z/OS 2.4 in 
preparation for installing z/OS 3.1.  Be sure to install all PTFs associated 
with the IBM.DrivingSystem-RequiredService fix category.

If in fact you do not already have an installed copy of z/OSMF on your z/OS 
2.4, then your choices are limited as you can not order or obtain z/OSMF for 
z/OS 2.4, nor an entire z/OS 2.4.  You might be stuck with getting and using 
the COD (Customized Offerings Driver) which is a load-and-go z/OS containing a 
z/OSMF server which you can then use to install z/OS 3.1.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF install

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> I know I need zOSMF to install 3.1.  My question is, in essence, can (or 
> should) I order and install a stand-alone zOSMF 3.1 and use that for my z/OS 
> 3.1 install or am I better off (or is this the only option) installing zOSMF 
> 2.4 before even heading down the 3.1 path?

Did you install z/OS 2.4 using ServerPac?  If so, then unless you specifically 
deleted it, you already have z/OSMF installed on your z/OS 2.4.  You may not 
have it configured and running, but it should be there.  If it is present, then 
recommend configuring and starting the z/OSMF server on your z/OS 2.4 in 
preparation for installing z/OS 3.1.  Be sure to install all PTFs associated 
with the IBM.DrivingSystem-RequiredService fix category.

If in fact you do not already have an installed copy of z/OSMF on your z/OS 
2.4, then your choices are limited as you can not order or obtain z/OSMF for 
z/OS 2.4, nor an entire z/OS 2.4.  You might be stuck with getting and using 
the COD (Customized Offerings Driver) which is a load-and-go z/OS containing a 
z/OSMF server which you can then use to install z/OS 3.1.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF install

[Pommier, Rex]

Hi Richard, 

I know I need zOSMF to install 3.1.  My question is, in essence, can (or 
should) I order and install a stand-alone zOSMF 3.1 and use that for my z/OS 
3.1 install or am I better off (or is this the only option) installing zOSMF 
2.4 before even heading down the 3.1 path?

Thanks again,
Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Richard McIntosh
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:10 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF install

You need zOSMF to install 3.1.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] : zOSMF install

Hi all,

Just looking for opinions on this.

Scenario is we're running z/OS 2.4.  We don't have zOSMF installed.  Sometime 
next year we're going to migrate to 3.1.  Would we be better off 
installing/implementing zOSMF 2.4 today in preparation for installing 3.1 or 
should we install zOSMF 3.1 and implement that before installing z/OS 3.1?  Can 
we even install zOSMF 3.1 without having a running zOSMF install already?

Thanks,

Rex

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Re: zOSMF install

[Richard McIntosh]

You need zOSMF to install 3.1.

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, December 4, 2023 10:07 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] : zOSMF install

Hi all,

Just looking for opinions on this.

Scenario is we're running z/OS 2.4.  We don't have zOSMF installed.  Sometime 
next year we're going to migrate to 3.1.  Would we be better off 
installing/implementing zOSMF 2.4 today in preparation for installing 3.1 or 
should we install zOSMF 3.1 and implement that before installing z/OS 3.1?  Can 
we even install zOSMF 3.1 without having a running zOSMF install already?

Thanks,

Rex

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Rob Scott]

Peter

The latest APAR for the new sample and REXX is :

PH55420

Included is a starter set sequence of RACF commands to implement a simple SDSF 
security setup assuming three types of users : sysprogs, operators and general 
users.
Also included is a REXX exec that takes SDSF “NTBL/NTBLENT” statements from 
ISFPRMxx and converts them to profile definitions for JESSPOOL resources.

We find that the above is sufficient for most customers to get started.

All SDSF presentations from Share and GSE can be found at the IBM education 
github :

https://github.com/IBM/IBM-Z-zOS/tree/main/zOS-Education/

Checkout the 2.5 and 3.1 folders and look for the “SDSF Security – How does it 
work on z/OS 2.5+” slide deck.

We also found that once customers understand what SDSF is doing under the 
covers for the various panels and actions, the migration makes much more sense.

I hope the above is helpful

Rob Scott
Rocket Software

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Peter
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 4:09 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

EXTERNAL EMAIL



Well I was able to find a utility developed by rocket software ISFACR and
it helped me to generate some commands which were required as part of my
migration

found that already my system had OPERCMDS enabled but other Classes were
not activated.

The generated command also deletes the existing OPERCMDS profile which I
will skip and run others if it is required



On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 8:39 AM Peter 
mailto:dbajava...@gmail.com>> wrote:

> Hello Rob
>
> Thank you so much for your response
>
> Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
> to RACF ?
>
> Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
> any automation tool.
>
> Peter
>
> On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott 
> mailto:rsc...@rocketsoftware.com>> wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
>> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>>
>> ISFPRMx just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
>> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
>> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>>
>> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
>> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
>> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
>> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>>
>> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS
>> and JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process, and you should allow many weeks for
>> testing and validation.
>>
>> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad
>> range of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>>
>> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
>> right direction if you want.
>>
>> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
>> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
>> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>>
>> Rob Scott
>> Rocket Software
>>
>> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
>> Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
>> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>> on behalf
>> of Peter mailto:dbajava...@gmail.com>>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU<mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> 
>> mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>>
>> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello All
>>
>> Good morning
>>
>> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
>> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
>> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS
>> instead
>> we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.
>>
>> Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu<mailto:lists...@listserv.ua.edu> with 
>> the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>> 
>> Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ? 77 Fourth Aven

Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Rob Scott]

ISFACR was actually written decades ago, waaay before Rocket involvement in 
SDSF.

There is a SDSF security migration manual which has been  updated recently to 
refer customers to some alternate simpler tools introduced via PTF.

You have to be VERY careful with ISFACR as it does have a "cleanup" step that 
it runs before defining new rules and it could affect any existing profiles. It 
does come with plenty of disclaimers in the doc and the commands it generates. 
It really should not be used as a definitive oracle of the profiles required, 
and customer review and edit is expected. It most definitely is not a "run it 
once and you are done" thing.

When I get back into work tomorrow I will post the presentation links and the 
PTF you need for the new tools.

Rob Scott
Rocket Software


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter 
Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2023 4:10:16 pm
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

EXTERNAL EMAIL




Well I was able to find a utility developed by rocket software ISFACR and
it helped me to generate some commands which were required as part of my
migration

found that already my system had OPERCMDS enabled but other Classes were
not activated.

The generated command also deletes the existing OPERCMDS profile which I
will skip and run others if it is required



On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 8:39 AM Peter  wrote:

> Hello Rob
>
> Thank you so much for your response
>
> Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
> to RACF ?
>
> Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
> any automation tool.
>
> Peter
>
> On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott  wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
>> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>>
>> ISFPRMx just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
>> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
>> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>>
>> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
>> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
>> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
>> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>>
>> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS
>> and JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process, and you should allow many weeks for
>> testing and validation.
>>
>> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad
>> range of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>>
>> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
>> right direction if you want.
>>
>> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
>> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
>> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>>
>> Rob Scott
>> Rocket Software
>>
>> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
>> Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>>
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Peter 
>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello All
>>
>> Good morning
>>
>> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
>> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
>> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS
>> instead
>> we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.
>>
>> Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>> 
>> Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ? 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA
>> 02451 ? Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323
>> Contact Customer Support:
>> https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport<https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport>
>> Unsubscribe from Marketing Messages/Manage Your Subscription Preferences
>> - 
>> http://www.rocketsoftware.com

Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Peter]

Well I was able to find a utility developed by rocket software ISFACR and
it helped me to generate some commands which were required as part of my
migration

found that already my system had OPERCMDS enabled but other Classes were
not activated.

The generated command also deletes the existing OPERCMDS profile which I
will skip and run others if it is required



On Sun, Dec 3, 2023, 8:39 AM Peter  wrote:

> Hello Rob
>
> Thank you so much for your response
>
> Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
> to RACF ?
>
> Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
> any automation tool.
>
> Peter
>
> On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott  wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
>> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>>
>> ISFPRMx  just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
>> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
>> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>>
>> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
>> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
>> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
>> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>>
>> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS
>> and JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process,  and you should allow many weeks for
>> testing and validation.
>>
>> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad
>> range of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>>
>> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
>> right direction if you want.
>>
>> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
>> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
>> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>>
>> Rob Scott
>> Rocket Software
>>
>> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
>> Sent from Outlook for Android
>> 
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Peter 
>> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
>> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello All
>>
>> Good morning
>>
>> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
>> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
>> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS
>> instead
>> we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.
>>
>> Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>>
>> 
>> Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ? 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA
>> 02451 ? Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323
>> Contact Customer Support:
>> https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport
>> Unsubscribe from Marketing Messages/Manage Your Subscription Preferences
>> - http://www.rocketsoftware.com/manage-your-email-preferences
>> Privacy Policy -
>> http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy
>> 
>>
>> This communication and any attachments may contain confidential
>> information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or
>> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
>> notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this
>> communication. Thank you.
>>
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>>
>

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Peter]

Hello Rob

Thank you so much for your response

Could you please point to your presentation on migrating off from ISFPRMXX
to RACF ?

Fortunately our shop is very small and we don't have any archiving tool or
any automation tool.

Peter

On Sat, Dec 2, 2023, 9:55 PM Rob Scott  wrote:

> Peter,
>
> Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and
> JESSPOOL if not already active).
>
> ISFPRMx  just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any
> semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or
> access SYSOUT using the JES SSI).
>
> Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security
> as everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class
> for product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the
> user's behalf when processing actions taken within the product.
>
> Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS and
> JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process,  and you should allow many weeks for
> testing and validation.
>
> The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad range
> of other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.
>
> I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the
> right direction if you want.
>
> As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to
> aid in SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more
> recent (and much simpler) tools and processes now.
>
> Rob Scott
> Rocket Software
>
> Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
> Sent from Outlook for Android
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Peter 
> Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
> Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
> Good morning
>
> I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
> security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
> jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS instead
> we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.
>
> Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?
>
> Peter
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>
> 
> Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ? 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA
> 02451 ? Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323
> Contact Customer Support:
> https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport
> Unsubscribe from Marketing Messages/Manage Your Subscription Preferences -
> http://www.rocketsoftware.com/manage-your-email-preferences
> Privacy Policy -
> http://www.rocketsoftware.com/company/legal/privacy-policy
> 
>
> This communication and any attachments may contain confidential
> information of Rocket Software, Inc. All unauthorized use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> notify Rocket Software immediately and destroy all copies of this
> communication. Thank you.
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Seymour J Metz]

++ even if it was still supported.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי
נֵ֣צַח יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל לֹ֥א יְשַׁקֵּ֖ר


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of Rob 
Scott 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 12:54 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

Peter,

Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and 
JESSPOOL if not already active).

ISFPRMx  just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any 
semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or access 
SYSOUT using the JES SSI).

Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security as 
everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class for 
product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the user's 
behalf when processing actions taken within the product.

Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS and 
JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process,  and you should allow many weeks for testing 
and validation.

The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad range of 
other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.

I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the right 
direction if you want.

As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to aid in 
SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more recent (and 
much simpler) tools and processes now.

Rob Scott
Rocket Software

Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

EXTERNAL EMAIL





Hello All

Good morning

I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS instead
we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.

Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?

Peter

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Rocket Software, Inc. and subsidiaries ? 77 Fourth Avenue, Waltham MA 02451 ? 
Main Office Toll Free Number: +1 855.577.4323
Contact Customer Support: 
https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport
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Re: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

[Rob Scott]

Peter,

Can I strongly suggest you instigate a project to activate OPERCMDS (and 
JESSPOOL if not already active).

ISFPRMx  just controls actions within SDSF and does not preclude any 
semi-capable programmer from writing code to issue operator commands (or access 
SYSOUT using the JES SSI).

Starting with z/OS 2 5, SDSF no longer uses ISFPRMxx to control security as 
everything now only goes through SAF authority. We use the SDSF class for 
product controls, and also make OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL checks on the user's 
behalf when processing actions taken within the product.

Please be aware that converting your systems to correctly use OPERCMDS and 
JESSPOOL can be a lengthy process,  and you should allow many weeks for testing 
and validation.

The OPERCMDS and JESSPOOL classes being activated can affect a broad range of 
other products including sysout archiving and automated operations.

I do have some presentations about SDSF security and can point you in the right 
direction if you want.

As a further note, the old ISFACR tool that was written 25+ years ago to aid in 
SAF security migration is showing its age a bit. We have some more recent (and 
much simpler) tools and processes now.

Rob Scott
Rocket Software

Sent from Samsung Mobile on O2
Sent from Outlook for Android

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Peter 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2023 9:31:26 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: zOSMF install - SDSF ISFPRMxx

EXTERNAL EMAIL





Hello All

Good morning

I have planned to install zOSMF in our test LPAR. Our SDSF uses its own
security features using ISFPRMXX and I can see zOSMF has its own IZUSEC
jobs where it activates OPERCMDS class. We never activated OPERCMDS instead
we manage using ISFPRMXX PARMLIB member.

Is there anyone who have installed zOSMF with above scenario?

Peter

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Contact Customer Support: 
https://my.rocketsoftware.com/RocketCommunity/RCEmailSupport
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Re: zOSMF Workflows

[Marna WALLE]

Hi David,
Frank Kyne, in one of his monthly newsletters, was noticing the same thing:  it 
is hard to have a full "view" of where all the WF service definition files are 
"sourced", for both ones you've used and ones you are looking for. Happily, 
though, WF does remember individually where the source of *that* WF instance 
was created from (under the Workflow Details twisty).

However - I think this might make a nice customer requirement, so an enterprise 
can "bookmark" their favorite location where the WF service definition came 
from, and make it available for all to see.  Might not help with those you've 
not used, but at least we'd have something to perhaps work with should it get 
implemented

I do like Kurt's suggestion of using zMSC!  It was precisely created for common 
(even complicated) WFs that you want to run again and again, with perhaps only 
slightly changed inputs.  AND, if I could even take it a step further (although 
I haven't personally tried it), the zMSC team tells me you can invoke a zMSC 
service with a supported REST API, making it even nicely leveraged by any 
program/automation you might want to use, if you didn't want to use the GUI.
Meaning, you'd then have both GUI for interactive, and REST API for automation 
support.  Something for everyone.

-Marna WALLE
z/OS System Install and Upgrade
IBM Poughkeepsie

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Re: zOSMF Workflows

[Jousma, David]

Thanks for that Kurt!

Dave Jousma
Vice President | Director, Technology Engineering





From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Kurt Quackenbush 
Date: Friday, September 22, 2023 at 8:40 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU 
Subject: Re: zOSMF Workflows
> There is something somewhat rudimentary in the create workflow screen with 
> the pulldown, but I dont know if thats zOSMF doing that, or the browser doing 
> that. But then that would likely be just for me? z/OSMF, not your browser, 
> manages


> There is something somewhat rudimentary in the create workflow screen with 
> the pulldown, but I dont know if thats zOSMF doing that, or the browser doing 
> that.   But then that would likely be just for me?



z/OSMF, not your browser, manages the pulldown of previous workflow definition 
files, and it is managed per user.



> What if we had a public workflow that we expected many people to use to 
> provision xyz?



Check out z/OSMF Management Services Catalog (zMSC).  You create a catalog of 
services from which to select, where a service is a workflow.

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ibm.com/support/z-content-solutions/management-services/__;!!MwwqYLOC6b6whF7V!iGiwecNffyrE3FlfTv6lRzxNDGNxYPZyFco_LlDCCzt3p6eP3do1ivzZ1nz3RtL_j0VzglCikvLBt2c$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ibm.com/support/z-content-solutions/management-services/__;!!MwwqYLOC6b6whF7V!iGiwecNffyrE3FlfTv6lRzxNDGNxYPZyFco_LlDCCzt3p6eP3do1ivzZ1nz3RtL_j0VzglCikvLBt2c$>



Kurt Quackenbush

IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com



Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.



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Re: zOSMF Workflows

[Kurt Quackenbush]

> There is something somewhat rudimentary in the create workflow screen with 
> the pulldown, but I dont know if thats zOSMF doing that, or the browser doing 
> that.   But then that would likely be just for me?

z/OSMF, not your browser, manages the pulldown of previous workflow definition 
files, and it is managed per user.

> What if we had a public workflow that we expected many people to use to 
> provision xyz?   

Check out z/OSMF Management Services Catalog (zMSC).  You create a catalog of 
services from which to select, where a service is a workflow.
https://www.ibm.com/support/z-content-solutions/management-services/

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF Workflows

[Patrick Loftus]

I don't see such a panel either, but you can view an active or archived 
Workflows properties to see the definition file used.
Perhaps you could just have a document with a list of workflows and their 
definition file locations?
Regards
Patrick

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Dave Jousma
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2023 12:50 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: zOSMF Workflows

All,

I have been thinking about this for awhile,, but cant seem to find the answer.  
 So asking my fellow listers if I am missing something.   Workflows are a one 
and done affair, and for repeatable processes you need to add it again.The 
problem is that the filesystem location for the workflows are usually buried in 
various installation manuals, not always easy to find.  Lately, I have been 
working with the zCX workflows to provision, alter, upgrade, etc.

My question is that it would be nice if there were a panel that would 
optionally bookmark all of the various workflow definition files that have been 
used or might be used again?   I dont see that?  Am I missing something?   
There is something somewhat rudimentary in the create workflow screen with the 
pulldown, but I dont know if thats zOSMF doing that, or the browser doing that. 
  But then that would likely be just for me?

What if we had a public workflow that we expected many people to use to 
provision xyz?   

I'm sure there is an answer to this, I'm just not picking up on it.

Dave

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Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Not sure I agree with you Kurt,

 My z/OS installs are less than 2 years old, my res volume/s and Dlibs, even 
operational datasets don't move around.

And even if I did, it is a very small number of them, which is why the RECATLG2 
job with indirect or volsers, I could correct anything flagged different.

I used the last offering of Serverpac to install my z/OS 2.5 and had everything 
ready in a few hours, because I just loaded my last saved configuration, 
modified anything new and started running jobs.

When I went and then re-ordered for z/OSMF, it was cumbersome, like extremely!  
z/OSMF did checking in the background, that I could not circumvent and failed 
multiple times.  I eventually gave up and said for the next release I hope 
someone find a cheat way to simplify this again!  Because z/OSMF isn't it.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Kurt J. Quackenbush
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 2:43 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


> > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

Oh, so just like the Model function in z/OSMF Software Management?

When you install software, like z/OS, using z/OSMF, during the Configuration 
step of the Deployment action in Software Management you have the option to 
model the configuration on your existing installed software.  For example, if 
you're installing z/OS 2.5, you can initialize the configuration to look a lot 
like your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 system.  In my opinion this is better than 
the CustomPac saved configuration function since that configuration is dated 
and stale, whereas your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 is most likely something you 
actively service and use in some capacity.

If you want to learn more about installing software using z/OSMF Software 
Management you can check out this video tutorial series.
https://mediacenter.ibm.com/playlist/dedicated/101043781/1_mzzf31vy/1_f1qhec1j
In particular, at 57 seconds into the fourth video I describe the Model 
function.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Marna WALLE]

Hi Phil,
If you are not interested in looking at videos to see the flow in action, the 
complete documentation (with Helps you see on the display) are on IBM 
Documentation.  

The "Model" function can be found here:  
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=wizard-model-page 

-Marna WALLE
z/OS System Install and Upgrade
 IBM Poughkeepsie

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Steve Thompson]

This is why I like the way Linux handles things. I can have two 
different Linux installs, as along as I have two different 
partitions or disks on which to put those installs. And then the 
user data is off in /home which can be yet another single or 
group of partitions on one or more disks.


By doing this, this way, if I have a problem after maint, getting 
a level of Linux to start, I can reboot, and select the "old" 
install and come back up.


VM doing this kind of thing is wonderful. It makes for using VM 
to build a new VM, boot it as a second level machine to test 
it Now, if I were only a VM sysprog


Windows, I always have to make a full back up of the "user data 
area" and any third party software, to do an install, because M/S 
assumes they own the disk drive(s) -- well effectively from where 
I sit/stand. It makes it interesting to have a dual boot machine. 
First you install Windows, then you install Linux. Do it the 
other way and Linux is no longer bootable. Ah, then there is the 
"live" CD|DVD|thumb drive And one can recover that way as well.


So I hope IBM is looking more at the Linux world for how to do 
installs than Microsoft's way of doing things.


Steve Thompson

On 5/30/2023 4:58 PM, Phil Smith III wrote:

FWIW (perhaps nothing), IBM solved the upgrade problem ~30 years ago for VM by 
separating the operating system nucleus (kernel) from the filesystem. That is, 
you can have multiple copies of the VM nucleus on various CMS (the end-user 
environment) minidisks, which CP (the hypervisor) knows how to read. To 
upgrade, you build a new VM nucleus on a new minidisk, then tell the standalone 
loader to IPL from that. If it fails, you just swap it back and go figure out 
the problem. It's super-slick. Not realistic for z/OS, I suspect, though I 
don't know enough to know why. And it was done as sort of a skunkworks project 
by David Boloker and Rich Corak in what was left of the Cambridge Scientific 
Center, in offices above the Copley Place mall IIRC. I doubt anyone could get 
away with that today; even at the time, I was surprised it was accepted into 
the base.

  


Windows has gotten better about upgrading, although, like most of you, I rarely upgrade a machine-usually by 
the time I'm forced to consider a new version, it's time for new hardware. But Windows upgrade difficulties 
mostly reflect the fact that the data isn't well separated from the OS: I still have a folder on my current 
machine called "From", where  is the name of a machine four machines ago. This is itself a 
Bad Thing. Microsoft has tried, but then there's all the  under c:\users\phsiii\Documents\ that isn't MY 
data, and cannot just be copied to a new machine. They should have separated "user data" and 
"installed stuff data" better. (I suspect the Registry was supposed to be the end-all here, but of 
course isn't.)

  


It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's a bad thing at all, in 
principle-except for the existing shops who have zero time/resources/interest in "fixing" 
their configuration. Could all the PARMLIB stuff be pushed into one standard layout? Probably. 
Would it be easy? No, and it would make a lot of shops very nervous, I'm sure-"Yeah, Bob is 
the one who set that up before his heart attack, and nobody really knows the dependencies. I'm not 
touching it!" This isn't ideal, obviously, but it means that when an incremental change is 
needed, it can be made and tested in isolation, vs. some sort of big-bang reorg that's high-risk.

  


It still sounds to me like the real problem here is that there hasn't been enough thought 
put into the impact on existing customers from the changes to install/upgrade beyond 
"Use z/OSMF".

  


P.S. "Just watch this video"-sorry, that isn't how I (or, I suspect, many of 
the old-timers on here) do things. I don't have time to watch some video: I want a manual 
that explains the thing, so I can flip back and forth, add Post-Its, and/or copy/print 
excerpts. This is a growing trend that ignores that videos are a SLOW and inefficient way 
to learn many things; I attribute their rise to the fact that most people can't write a 
coherent sentence to save their lives, but they sure can talk.

  


...phsiii (sounding grumpy on a virtual Monday)


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Very true - and that isn't just Windows.  MS Office anyone?  It seems like 
every new release they tape the user interface icons and menu items to scrabble 
pieces, then give them a good shake in a hat, pulling them out randomly to 
build the next user interface.  OK, it isn't that bad but they do seem to go 
out of their way to hide things.  

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 3:28 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mason.gmu.edu/*smetz3__;fg!!KjMRP1Ixj6eLE0Fj!txf32ReslXXp6ZP9iT8NQlaKt9dGK_gpbJIzec2C9BeqAJzVlqqb0VvB0uhy3XKPTpkz3VyYpRxj7vALZw$
 


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
> in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior System

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I haven't installed windows since 3.1, but I always do as fresh install of 
ArcalOS and Linux on a spare logical drive, using a RYO script to deploy my 
customization. That includes a lot of desktop customization for ArcaOS.

For z/OS, you should be able to keep your local mods in a PDS, rework if 
necessary and apply the in the new CSI.

Zap outside of SMP? Not my monkeys, not my circus.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 4:37 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

Funny!  Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX
company and the  product, not necessarily that number of X's but
could be :)

You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version
of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new
disk.

And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I
ran it) completely replaced the previous OS.  I can barely remember, but
before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res
pack.  So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before
outside of SMPE, could live on.

On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past 
> year that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier 
> to just low level the hard drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or 
> both of them?  I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner 
> workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong.  Just some generic 
> "something broke" message.  Kind of hard to actually fix something when 
> that's the totality of the error message.
>
> But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I 
> won't mention any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called 
> the vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we 
> can't even make sense of the install as documented.  Here, let me walk you 
> through my process."  His worked, but it was nothing like the document.
>
> Rex
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
> the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
> support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
> this particular product." :)
>
> ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
> IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
> How would an installation program find those libraries/members to 
> automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.
>
> Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe 
> we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.
>
> On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
>> luck.
>>
>> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
>> you could install like android.
>>
>> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
>> hunting thru libraries.
>>
>> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
>> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
>> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS 
>> release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to 
>> concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
>> content is safe.
>>
>>
>> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and
>> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For
>> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PA

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

FWIW (perhaps nothing), IBM solved the upgrade problem ~30 years ago for VM by 
separating the operating system nucleus (kernel) from the filesystem. That is, 
you can have multiple copies of the VM nucleus on various CMS (the end-user 
environment) minidisks, which CP (the hypervisor) knows how to read. To 
upgrade, you build a new VM nucleus on a new minidisk, then tell the standalone 
loader to IPL from that. If it fails, you just swap it back and go figure out 
the problem. It's super-slick. Not realistic for z/OS, I suspect, though I 
don't know enough to know why. And it was done as sort of a skunkworks project 
by David Boloker and Rich Corak in what was left of the Cambridge Scientific 
Center, in offices above the Copley Place mall IIRC. I doubt anyone could get 
away with that today; even at the time, I was surprised it was accepted into 
the base.

 

Windows has gotten better about upgrading, although, like most of you, I rarely 
upgrade a machine-usually by the time I'm forced to consider a new version, 
it's time for new hardware. But Windows upgrade difficulties mostly reflect the 
fact that the data isn't well separated from the OS: I still have a folder on 
my current machine called "From", where  is the name of a machine four 
machines ago. This is itself a Bad Thing. Microsoft has tried, but then there's 
all the  under c:\users\phsiii\Documents\ that isn't MY data, and cannot 
just be copied to a new machine. They should have separated "user data" and 
"installed stuff data" better. (I suspect the Registry was supposed to be the 
end-all here, but of course isn't.)

 

It's fine for IBM to push toward a standardized layout. I don't think that's a 
bad thing at all, in principle-except for the existing shops who have zero 
time/resources/interest in "fixing" their configuration. Could all the PARMLIB 
stuff be pushed into one standard layout? Probably. Would it be easy? No, and 
it would make a lot of shops very nervous, I'm sure-"Yeah, Bob is the one who 
set that up before his heart attack, and nobody really knows the dependencies. 
I'm not touching it!" This isn't ideal, obviously, but it means that when an 
incremental change is needed, it can be made and tested in isolation, vs. some 
sort of big-bang reorg that's high-risk.

 

It still sounds to me like the real problem here is that there hasn't been 
enough thought put into the impact on existing customers from the changes to 
install/upgrade beyond "Use z/OSMF".

 

P.S. "Just watch this video"-sorry, that isn't how I (or, I suspect, many of 
the old-timers on here) do things. I don't have time to watch some video: I 
want a manual that explains the thing, so I can flip back and forth, add 
Post-Its, and/or copy/print excerpts. This is a growing trend that ignores that 
videos are a SLOW and inefficient way to learn many things; I attribute their 
rise to the fact that most people can't write a coherent sentence to save their 
lives, but they sure can talk.

 

...phsiii (sounding grumpy on a virtual Monday)


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

And not just with every new release!  These days Windows (at least how I 
run it) decides to put on changes whenever it feels like it.


But if you're talking about the default Windows Start Menu, I haven't 
used it since Windows 7.  With a new Windows install that's probably the 
first thing I replace with an outside program.


On 5/30/2023 1:28 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls
when installing this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx,
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied,
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work
as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

  1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
  2. Simplify the in

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

ObQohelet1:9 I vaguely recall reading a diatribe against the degeneracy of the 
younger generation, written in ancient Greece. There have always been people 
who didn't want to learn.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:24 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

Funny!  Yes, that sounds like the same conversation I had with XXX 
company and the  product, not necessarily that number of X's but 
could be :)


You're right, I should have mentioned that when I install a new version 
of Windows or Linux, I always start with a full install file and a new 
disk.


And related, I really liked the fact that ServerPac (at least the way I 
ran it) completely replaced the previous OS.  I can barely remember, but 
before that I think we would do version updates to the existing res 
pack.  So problem members, like maybe something we zapped years before 
outside of SMPE, could live on.


On 5/30/2023 12:36 PM, Pommier, Rex wrote:

Tom,

I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year that were 
so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just low level the hard 
drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or both of them?  I don't really know, 
because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far they wouldn't even tell me what 
was wrong.  Just some generic "something broke" message.  Kind of hard to 
actually fix something when that's the totality of the error message.

But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't mention 
any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called the vendor the first 
response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't even make sense of the 
install as documented.  Here, let me walk you through my process."  His worked, but 
it was nothing like the document.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember the last 
time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the support person said, 
"Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing this particular 
product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Tom Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and
Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For
example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look
in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the main

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't see an FMID issue with SMP/E. I see an issue with being able to install 
and remove service selectively, but can you have a reliable system if they take 
that away? The classical "reboot" and "reinstall" solutions to windows issues 
are not acceptable on a 24x365 enterprise server.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Shaffer, Terri [017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:02 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
>
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
>
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there an

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

How about the last time that the menu structure changed? I keep reading user 
complaints about each new release of windows that boil down to not being able 
to find things because they aren't where they used to be.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tom 
Brennan [t...@tombrennansoftware.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 1:19 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls
when installing this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx,
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used.
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied,
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work
as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
> Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
> machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
> don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
> are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
>> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>>
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
>> content is safe.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>>
>>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Pommier, Rex]

Tom,

I have gotten the privilege of reinstalling 2 Windows machines in the past year 
that were so messed up from failed installs/updates that it was easier to just 
low level the hard drive and start over.  Could I have fixed 1 or both of them? 
 I don't really know, because Microsoft has hidden the inner workings so far 
they wouldn't even tell me what was wrong.  Just some generic "something broke" 
message.  Kind of hard to actually fix something when that's the totality of 
the error message.

But, yes, I've had similar experiences with third party z/OS software (I won't 
mention any names or acronyms).  One recent episode was when I called the 
vendor the first response I got back was along the lines of "yeah, we can't 
even make sense of the install as documented.  Here, let me walk you through my 
process."  His worked, but it was nothing like the document.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 12:20 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do remember 
the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for help the 
support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls when installing 
this particular product." :)

ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. 
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to automatically 
make the required mods?  Not easy.

Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, maybe we 
need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work as planned.

On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good 
> luck.
> 
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID 
> you could install like android.
> 
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
> hunting thru libraries.
> 
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I 
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
> SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
> and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede 
> to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
> 
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> 
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
> 
> 
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
> Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
> example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
> in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
> 
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the 
> other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
> 
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>> I have to disagree.
>>
>> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
>> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
>> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
>> actually perform?
>> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just 
>> add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries 
>> past an RSU level?
>>
>> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
>> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>>
>> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>>
>> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything 
>> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>>
>> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
>> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>>
>>
>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>> z/OS Support:
>> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-259

Re: zOSMF

[Kurt J. Quackenbush]

> > Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

Oh, so just like the Model function in z/OSMF Software Management?

When you install software, like z/OS, using z/OSMF, during the Configuration 
step of the Deployment action in Software Management you have the option to 
model the configuration on your existing installed software.  For example, if 
you're installing z/OS 2.5, you can initialize the configuration to look a lot 
like your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 system.  In my opinion this is better than 
the CustomPac saved configuration function since that configuration is dated 
and stale, whereas your existing z/OS 2.4 or 2.3 is most likely something you 
actively service and use in some capacity.

If you want to learn more about installing software using z/OSMF Software 
Management you can check out this video tutorial series.
https://mediacenter.ibm.com/playlist/dedicated/101043781/1_mzzf31vy/1_f1qhec1j
In particular, at 57 seconds into the fourth video I describe the Model 
function.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.


--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

"I've known people for whom using Excel is a struggle."

Ha ha!  Add me to that list.

It could be the original PC's and Unix/Linux were also more like a 
tailored suit, but then things like plug-and-play and better install 
programs were created to hide and standardize.  Like you say, that was 
required for the target audience.  But as a side effect, it also made 
things easy for experienced users.


On 5/30/2023 10:36 AM, John McKown wrote:

Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass
marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of
choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not
interested in technology,  just using something. I've known people for whom
using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter.
Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one
size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo.

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good
luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID
you could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I
can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF
with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS
release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to
concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Tom Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example,
I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and
parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that
would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on
the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an

average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?

Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to

actually perform?

Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and

just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply
libraries past an RSU level?


One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always

provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.


Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn

anymore.


Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything

else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.


But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the

mainframe.  Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work
effectively



Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know

the content is safe.



On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice 

wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST

level of

 code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use

SMP/E -

 just copy the libraries?)
 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters

are no

 longer needed and could just be set to "default")
 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging

...

 how can we simplify this - for example products should provide

members of

 the definitions.  It 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[John McKown]

Windows, MacOS, Android and so on are built on the premise of "mass
marketing". Which means they need are set up in "the one true way". Lack of
choice is required to make things easy enough for someone who is not
interested in technology,  just using something. I've known people for whom
using Excel is a struggle. They use MS Word like an old style typewriter.
Forget getting them to do any kind of database. z/OS is not meant to be one
size fits all. It is like a bespoke, individually tailored tuxedo.

On Tue, May 30, 2023, 11:03 Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good
> luck.
>
> How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID
> you could install like android.
>
> I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more
> hunting thru libraries.
>
> z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I
> can run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF
> with SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS
> release and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to
> concede to, for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Tom Brennan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac
> machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example,
> I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and
> parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
> annoying) updates itself from time to time.
>
> z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that
> would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on
> the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.
>
> On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> > I have to disagree.
> >
> > First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an
> average customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> > Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to
> actually perform?
> > Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and
> just add 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply
> libraries past an RSU level?
> >
> > One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
> >
> > Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn
> anymore.
> >
> > Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything
> else IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
> >
> > But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the
> mainframe.  Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work
> effectively
> >
> >
> > Ms Terri E Shaffer
> > Senior Systems Engineer,
> > z/OS Support:
> > ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> > Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> >
> > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the content is safe.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> >> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> >> very quickly (1
> >> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
> >>
> >> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
> >> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST
> level of
> >> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use
> SMP/E -
> >> just copy the libraries?)
> >> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters
> are no
> >> longer needed and could ju

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

I can't remember the last time a Windows/Linux install failed.  I do 
remember the last time an ISV z/OS install failed, and when I called for 
help the support person said, "Don't worry about it, *everybody* calls 
when installing this particular product." :)


ISRFIND/ISRDDN is still hunting.  And you also need to look at LOADxx, 
IEASYSxx, and maybe IEASYMxx to figure out what members are being used. 
How would an installation program find those libraries/members to 
automatically make the required mods?  Not easy.


Yes, z/OS is complex, but it doesn't have to be.  Like Lionel implied, 
maybe we need to standardize before something like z/OSMF can ever work 
as planned.


On 5/30/2023 9:02 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
Behalf Of Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
 code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
 just copy the libraries?)
 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
 longer needed and could just be set to "default")
 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
 how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
 the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
 definitions.
 6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin


Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Kids can install, because basically one FMID, and if it doesn’t work, good luck.

How many FMID components make up core z/OS?  Maybe if IBM made it one FMID you 
could install like android.

I can use ISRFIND or ISRDDN, to find many things out in Seconds, no more 
hunting thru libraries.

z/OS is complex, period, its why I can run 4 flavors of many components, I can 
run X number of LPARS at different z/OS versions, even look at SDSF with 
SDSFAUX now, tons of information is known in seconds, but change z/OS release 
and not all were available yet, SO what assumptions are you will to concede to, 
for z/OSMF to work, with out adding to the headaches.

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 11:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
>
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
>
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
>
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
>
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
>
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
>
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN 
> 
>   [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg]
> <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may 
> contain confidential, prop

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Doug]

Maybe actually teach the new sysprog's how MVS works? Like real 
knowledge?
Ah, why do THAT when there are s many better shortcuts to give them 
to screw it all up.



Glad my time in this gets shorter every day.

Doug Fuerst

-- Original Message --
From: "Colin Paice" 
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Sent: 30-May-23 10:04:12
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

   1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
   2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
   code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
   just copy the libraries?)
   3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
   longer needed and could just be set to "default")
   4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
   5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
   how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
   the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
   definitions.
   6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller <
0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:


 Classification: Confidential

 Agreed!

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Shaffer, Terri
 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

 [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust
 the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing
 email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

 While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I
 don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.

 I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design
 that can only go so far.

 For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many
 Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...

 Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.
 Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of
 windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.
 And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said,
 your reset your phone and started again.. H

 z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that
 has worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from
 a previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every
 time I install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours,
 now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.

 I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which
 forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps
 or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when
 I select advanced install option.

 In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love
 the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use
 it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too..

 Ms Terri E Shaffer
 Senior Systems Engineer,
 z/OS Support:
 ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
 H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
 terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

 -Original Message-
 From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
 Of Phil Smith III
 Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
 Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

 EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
 content is safe.


 Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
 >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
 >you away from the need to know what you are doing.

 That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
 Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places"
 and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've
 been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
 can't really dispute it.

 In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
 and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing.
 Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

 On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
 reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
 I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't
 tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And
 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as lo

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Lionel B. Dyck]

Perhaps we've put the cart before the horse. Define and then transition to a 
standard environment and then provide the tooling to manage it. Trying to do it 
the other way around has taken years and too much stress.  The transition won't 
be easy but if there is a benefit it will happen - migration tools can then be 
created to take the installations current implementation and standardize it.

The *challenge* will be making sure that installations with special 
requirements, including ISV products, can be easily accommodated.


Lionel B. Dyck <><
Website: https://www.lbdsoftware.com
Github: https://github.com/lbdyck

“Worry more about your character than your reputation. Character is what you 
are, reputation merely what others think you are.”   - - - John Wooden

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Tom 
Brennan
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:20 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and Mac 
machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For example, I 
don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look in /etc and parms 
are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while
annoying) updates itself from time to time.

z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that would 
still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that on the other 
platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.

On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
> I have to disagree.
> 
> First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
> customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
> Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to 
> actually perform?
> Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
> 1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
> RSU level?
> 
> One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
> provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.
> 
> Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.
> 
> Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
> IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.
> 
> But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
> Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively
> 
> 
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On 
> Behalf Of Mike Schwab
> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> 
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
> content is safe.
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>>
>> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the 
>> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed 
>> very quickly (1
>> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>>
>> 1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>> 2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>> code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>> just copy the libraries?)
>> 3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>> longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>> 4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>> 5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>> how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>> the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>> definitions.
>> 6. 
>>
>> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Examine the current system,
> create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?
> 
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send 
> email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN 
> 
>   [https://go.aciworldwide.com/rs/030-ROK-804/images/aci-footer.jpg] 
> <http://www.aciworldwide.com> This email message and any attachments may 
> contain confidential, proprietary or non-public information. The information 
> is intended solely for the designated recipient(s

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Tom Brennan]

So how come my kids can install apps and updates to their Windows and 
Mac machines, and I can work with Linux with no formal training?  For 
example, I don't need to hunt down SYS3.MY2013.PARMLIB(PROG46), I look 
in /etc and parms are in standard directories.  Even my Android (while 
annoying) updates itself from time to time.


z/OSMF isn't the cure though.  System standardization might be, but that 
would still include IBM dictating how things are done.  We accept that 
on the other platforms and it seems to solve a lot of problems.


On 5/30/2023 7:24 AM, Shaffer, Terri wrote:

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:


People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
just copy the libraries?)
3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
longer needed and could just be set to "default")
4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
definitions.
6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin


Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

--
For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to 
lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

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send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

I have to disagree.

First lets talk about the migration guide and how many products an average 
customer runs for a z/OS upgrade?
Then how many of the hundreds of actions does any one customer need to actually 
perform?
Then, I know many customers, who may apply one RSU once per year and just add 
1-2 PTF for break fix, why would I ever want IBM to supply libraries past an 
RSU level?

One stop shopping doesn’t allow the flexibility the mainframe has always 
provided, IBM should not dictate how I setup my shop.

Lastly, isn’t the actual issue, no-one takes any initiative to learn anymore.

Use the analogy of back in the 80's, how much with IOGENs and everything else 
IBM has done over the years to simplify the system programmers tasks.

But now they want GUI/Clicky and removed the interface from the mainframe.  
Sorry but I have seen too many lockouts for this to work effectively


Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Mike Schwab
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2023 10:11 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the
> positive sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed
> very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Mike Schwab]

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:04 AM Colin Paice  wrote:
>
> People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
> sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
> month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?
>
>1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
>2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
>code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
>just copy the libraries?)
>3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
>longer needed and could just be set to "default")
>4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
>5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
>how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
>the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
>definitions.
>6. 
>
> Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?
>
> Colin
>
Examine the current system,
create a script to set the equivalent values for z/OSMF?

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Colin Paice]

People feel that z/OSMF is not meeting their needs. Looking at the positive
sideIf we wanted to get future z/OS newbies up to speed very quickly (1
month)  What should IBM and us users be doing?

   1. Making better use of existing tools?  Eclipse ?
   2. Simplify the installation process (perhaps download the CST level of
   code including SMP/E libraries - so we users do not need to use SMP/E -
   just copy the libraries?)
   3. Simplify the configuration? (How many configuration parameters are no
   longer needed and could just be set to "default")
   4. Drive everything from off-platform through Curl?
   5. Setting up Racf definitions for a new product can be challenging ...
   how can we simplify this - for example products should provide members of
   the definitions.  It is easier to delete unwanted lines - than type in
   definitions.
   6. 

Is there anything easy we/IBM could do to move in the right direction?

Colin

On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 14:16, Allan Staller <
0387911dea17-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Classification: Confidential
>
> Agreed!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Shaffer, Terri
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> [CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust
> the sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing
> email, which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]
>
> While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I
> don't think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.
>
> I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design
> that can only go so far.
>
> For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many
> Catalogs> How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...
>
> Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.
> Or how about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of
> windows/Android. Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.
> And whats my backout if something doesn't work? Think of what you said,
> your reset your phone and started again.. H
>
> z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that
> has worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from
> a previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every
> time I install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours,
> now with the z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.
>
> I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which
> forces you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps
> or under the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when
> I select advanced install option.
>
> In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love
> the mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use
> it for z/OS installs only because I am forced too..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
> >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
> >you away from the need to know what you are doing.
>
> That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
> Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places"
> and "making it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've
> been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
> can't really dispute it.
>
> In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
> and tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing.
> Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.
>
> On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
> reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
> I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't
> tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And
> 99.44% of people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try.
>
> and Colin Paic

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

Agreed!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Shaffer, Terri
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don't 
think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.

I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that 
can only go so far.

For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> 
How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...

Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.  Or how 
about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. 
Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.  And whats my backout 
if something doesn't work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and 
started again.. H

z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has 
worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from a 
previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I 
install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the 
z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn't possible.

I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces 
you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under 
the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when I select 
advanced install option.

In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love the 
mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for 
z/OS installs only because I am forced too..

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
>The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
>you away from the need to know what you are doing.

That's the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? 
iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level "putting  in places" and "making 
it bootable". While it makes me nervous because, like you, I've been doing this 
for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can't really dispute 
it.

In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and 
tire changes, etc. Most people don't now, and that's not a bad thing. Sure, 
occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a 
reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I 
understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn't tell 
what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn't need to. And 99.44% of 
people wouldn't care, as long as it worked the second try.

and Colin Paice asked:
>Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

That's the point I made before: with Windows, you're forced into a fairly 
standard configuration. With z/OS, it's a bit late (by almost six decades): 
sites aren't going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of 
them), sure. But that doesn't really help at this point, alas.


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::DISCLAIMER::
__

Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

A typo; should be GUI.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
David Crayford 
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2023 10:13 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

What’s CUI? A container platform?

> On 28 May 2023, at 9:57 pm, W Mainframe 
> <01304632a58d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi,Just some few words..:I hate zosmf and zowe... :)And yes... I have some 
> good applications running on CUI... No plans to migrate... :)Dan
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023, 8:26 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> The problem is not the D interface; the Devil is in the details. The real 
> issue is the design, and what IBM has chosen to hide, rather than CLI vs 
> panels vs GUI.
>
> It is perfectly possible to write a program with a scriptable GUI; anybody 
> remember SOM, DSOM and WPS. A GUI is a good servant but a poor master, and 
> even with a GUI it is easy to provide visibility to things that you have 
> automated.
>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Jack Zukt [jzuk...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 5:31 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
> away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
> MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
> doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
> time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
> MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
> installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
> was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
> The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
> install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
> knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
> get in your way.
> So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
> and problem solving.
> That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
> Jack
>
>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>>
>> I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
>> bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
>>
>> ________
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Harris Randy - Nashville 
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>>
>> I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
>> or go the mainframe direction.
>> I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
>> I'm not a GUI fan.
>> It's not Windows.
>> I do have grey hair.
>> I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
>> What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
>> (SERVERPAC) and force
>> those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
>> what we already have in place.
>> And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>>
>> Randy Harris
>> P 615-344-3244
>> C 662-401-8552
>> james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
>> Of Phil Smith III
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
>>
>> CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
>> CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
>> the content is safe.
>>
>> Beverly Caldwell wrote:
>>> If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
>>
>> I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
>> “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
>> have any grey hair yet?”
>>
>> This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
>> problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig
>> doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
>> 
>>
>>
>> I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
>> which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC
>> error conditions, it would dro

Re: zOSMF

[David Crayford]

What’s CUI? A container platform?

> On 28 May 2023, at 9:57 pm, W Mainframe 
> <01304632a58d-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
> 
> Hi,Just some few words..:I hate zosmf and zowe... :)And yes... I have some 
> good applications running on CUI... No plans to migrate... :)Dan
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> 
> On Sunday, May 28, 2023, 8:26 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:
> 
> The problem is not the D interface; the Devil is in the details. The real 
> issue is the design, and what IBM has chosen to hide, rather than CLI vs 
> panels vs GUI.
> 
> It is perfectly possible to write a program with a scriptable GUI; anybody 
> remember SOM, DSOM and WPS. A GUI is a good servant but a poor master, and 
> even with a GUI it is easy to provide visibility to things that you have 
> automated.
> 
> 
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> 
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
> Jack Zukt [jzuk...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 5:31 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
> 
> The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
> away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
> MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
> doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
> time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
> MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
> installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
> was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
> The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
> install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
> knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
> get in your way.
> So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
> and problem solving.
> That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
> Jack
> 
>> On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>> 
>> I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
>> bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
>> 
>> ________
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
>> of Harris Randy - Nashville 
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>> 
>> I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
>> or go the mainframe direction.
>> I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
>> I'm not a GUI fan.
>> It's not Windows.
>> I do have grey hair.
>> I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
>> What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
>> (SERVERPAC) and force
>> those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
>> what we already have in place.
>> And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>> 
>> Randy Harris
>> P 615-344-3244
>> C 662-401-8552
>> james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
>> Of Phil Smith III
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
>> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
>> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
>> 
>> CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
>> CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
>> the content is safe.
>> 
>> Beverly Caldwell wrote:
>>> If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
>> 
>> I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
>> “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
>> have any grey hair yet?”
>> 
>> This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
>> problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig
>> doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
>> which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC
>> error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
>> dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press
>> a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power 

Re: zOSMF

[W Mainframe]

Hi,Just some few words..:I hate zosmf and zowe... :)And yes... I have some good 
applications running on CUI... No plans to migrate... :)Dan


Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Sunday, May 28, 2023, 8:26 AM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

The problem is not the D interface; the Devil is in the details. The real 
issue is the design, and what IBM has chosen to hide, rather than CLI vs panels 
vs GUI.

It is perfectly possible to write a program with a scriptable GUI; anybody 
remember SOM, DSOM and WPS. A GUI is a good servant but a poor master, and even 
with a GUI it is easy to provide visibility to things that you have automated.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jack Zukt [jzuk...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 5:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
get in your way.
So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
and problem solving.
That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
Jack

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
> bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Harris Randy - Nashville 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
> or go the mainframe direction.
> I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
> I'm not a GUI fan.
> It's not Windows.
> I do have grey hair.
> I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
> What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
> (SERVERPAC) and force
> those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
> what we already have in place.
> And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>
> Randy Harris
> P 615-344-3244
> C 662-401-8552
> james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
>
> CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
> CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
> Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> >If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
>
> I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
> “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
> have any grey hair yet?”
>
> This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
> problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig
> doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
> 
>
>
> I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
> which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC
> error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
> dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press
> a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that
> plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle,
> as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error
> occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a
> single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of course.
> Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard
> variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak of.
> And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the
> error…Good times. /s
>
>
> --

Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

The problem is not the D interface; the Devil is in the details. The real 
issue is the design, and what IBM has chosen to hide, rather than CLI vs panels 
vs GUI.

It is perfectly possible to write a program with a scriptable GUI; anybody 
remember SOM, DSOM and WPS. A GUI is a good servant but a poor master, and even 
with a GUI it is easy to provide visibility to things that you have automated.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of 
Jack Zukt [jzuk...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 5:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
get in your way.
So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
and problem solving.
That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
Jack

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
> bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Harris Randy - Nashville 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
> or go the mainframe direction.
> I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
> I'm not a GUI fan.
> It's not Windows.
> I do have grey hair.
> I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
> What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
> (SERVERPAC) and force
> those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
> what we already have in place.
> And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>
> Randy Harris
> P 615-344-3244
> C 662-401-8552
> james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
>
> CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
> CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
> Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> >If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
>
> I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
> “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
> have any grey hair yet?”
>
> This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
> problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig
> doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
> 
>
>
> I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
> which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC
> error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
> dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press
> a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that
> plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle,
> as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error
> occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a
> single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of course.
> Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard
> variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak of.
> And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the
> error…Good times. /s
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Brian Westerman]

Personally I think z/OSMF is a big step in the wrong direction for IBM, 
especially since they made it a the only choice.  Before them it was also 
pretty much just a single choice, but you had a lot of flexibility that you no 
longer have with the newer method.  There appears to be no good reason to 
discontinue ServerPac and for the small boxes, z/OSMF is excruciatingly slow.  

Brian

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Joel C. Ewing]

A significant difference between z/OS and Windows environments is the 
management philosophy in the z/OS environment that all the core code 
that controls the system behavior and integrity can (and should) be 
completely isolated from application and third-party code in data sets 
that are protected, and that the hardware architecture and SAF product 
enforce that code separation. Acceptable maintenance practices only 
allow installation of system code at times of the installation's choice 
on non-production data sets, and via means (SMP/E) that allow the 
affected data sets and the status of every module before and after the 
change to be known.


If zOSMF ever becomes such a black box that that SysProgs lose the 
clarity of what data sets must be carefully protected as critical to 
system integrity, that would be badness.


Windows core system maintenance occurs mostly at the whims of Microsoft 
on a running system and there is no way to track what individual files 
or directories may be changed or easily undo individual changes. It is 
still possible for third-party product installs and maintenance to 
update files in directories shared with Windows core code or potentially 
modify Windows system files,  and they can also update the same registry 
file that is essential to Windows operation.   At least Windows asks for 
permission to proceed with a product installation, but if the product is 
one you need, the only choice is to respond "yes" and pray it doesn't 
change anything it ought not.  This lack of positive protection over all 
Windows core code is why a Windows re-install is sometimes the best 
repair choice.


The need under the PC architecture to support a wide variety of 
vendor-unique hardware devices with hardware vendor device drivers that 
run at the Windows kernel level is another major potential integrity 
exposure in Windows.


Given the number of integrity exposures that Windows allows out of 
Microsoft's direct control, It's amazing Windows is as reliable as it is.


    Joel C. Ewing

.On 5/27/23 04:39, Jack Zukt wrote:


I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being
able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on
z/OS.
Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with
problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how
things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right
direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a
few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc.
But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is
not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of
working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I
did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity
then and I still do not like it now.
This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be
a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and
authorizations are staggering.
Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age
than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my
much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way.
But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it
and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned
nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do
not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS
is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done.
But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative.
There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is
the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and
reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices.
Jack

On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III  wrote:


Jack Zukt wrote, in part:

The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
away from the need to know what you are doing.

That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting  in places”
and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve
been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
can’t really dispute it.

In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing.
Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t
tell what failed? Not really, but, 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Mike Schwab]

Have them read Introduction To The New Mainframe.  Very much describes
mainframes in DOS / Unix terms.

On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 4:39 AM Jack Zukt  wrote:
>
> I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being
> able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on
> z/OS.
> Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with
> problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how
> things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right
> direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a
> few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc.
> But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is
> not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of
> working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I
> did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity
> then and I still do not like it now.
> This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be
> a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and
> authorizations are staggering.
> Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age
> than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my
> much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way.
> But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it
> and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned
> nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do
> not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS
> is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done.
> But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative.
> There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is
> the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and
> reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices.
> Jack
>
> On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III  wrote:
>
> > Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
> > >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
> > >away from the need to know what you are doing.
> >
> > That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
> > Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting  in places”
> > and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve
> > been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
> > can’t really dispute it.
> >
> > In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
> > and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing.
> > Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.
> >
> > On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
> > reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
> > I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t
> > tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And
> > 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try.
> >
> > and Colin Paice asked:
> > >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?
> >
> > That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly
> > standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades):
> > sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful
> > of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas.
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
> >
>
> --
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-- 
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Jack Zukt]

I can understand the windows and android analogy. And I do hate not being
able to solve windows and android problems with the ease I solve them on
z/OS.
Over the years colleagues from other areas have come to me for help with
problems on their turf, and I was able to help them because I knew how
things worked between them. Usually I could point them in the right
direction because I understood MVS. I did have to learn a bit of windows, a
few years ago, so I could solve the problems that my father had on his pc.
But sometimes I would have to reinstall windows to solve them. And that is
not an option with z/OS. So, I suppose we are going into a new way of
working that will be fully automated installations and IA maintenence. I
did try zosmf a few years ago. I did not like the underneath complexity
then and I still do not like it now.
This is supposed to be a tool to install anything and everything, and to be
a worflow to multiple maintenence tasks. The amount of RACF definitions and
authorizations are staggering.
Sometimes I do wonder if the way I look at zosmf has more to do with my age
than with the product itself. I delegated the zosmf implementation to my
much younger colleagues, so that my prejudices would not get in the way.
But what I can say at this point is that they have managed to install it
and, I think, they have managed to use it. However they have learned
nothing that will help them to understand what is beneath it. They still do
not grasp basic z/OS concepts. I still think that the best way to learn MVS
is to build one from scratch. Unfortunately that is something seldom done.
But moving your systems to a new server pack is the best alternative.
There is no point bitching about zosmf and the good old days, as this is
the way IBM is building it now. But Windows and android are not stable and
reliable systems. At least, not the ones I have running on my devices.
Jack

On Fri, May 26, 2023, 17:38 Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
> >The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
> >away from the need to know what you are doing.
>
> That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing?
> Android? iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting  in places”
> and “making it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve
> been doing this for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I
> can’t really dispute it.
>
> In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil
> and tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing.
> Sure, occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.
>
> On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a
> reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did
> I understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t
> tell what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And
> 99.44% of people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try.
>
> and Colin Paice asked:
> >Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?
>
> That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly
> standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades):
> sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful
> of them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas.
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Terri:
Right. That’s been my point from the start: while a noble effort, it’s not 
going to get there without putting a LOT of work into changing the 
underpinnings. This is trying to fix a foundation problem by spackling and 
painting over it. Since it’s not even being discussed—folks seem to be charging 
ahead and picking paint colors—I fear it is doomed to fail until/unless this is 
recognized.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

While I see where you went with your thought process, the mainframe I don’t 
think will ever get to a windows or Android mentality.

I mean I know IBM wants to make the mainframe less complex, but by design that 
can only go so far.

For example, How many SMPE environments does a company have? How many Catalogs> 
How are the volumes laid out?  RES, DLIB, CATALOG, Paging, ETC...

Can you sort of automate the day to day management, or operations, yes.  Or how 
about how is maintenance applied, If I use your examples of windows/Android. 
Its live update, not sure that would fly in any company.  And whats my backout 
if something doesn’t work? Think of what you said, your reset your phone and 
started again.. H

z/OSMF is the IBM forced method here, and they have taken a process that has 
worked for 25+ years,  like I want to copy the old config settings from a 
previous z/OS install.  Why should I have to re-invent that wheel every time I 
install z/OS?  I use to be able to do a serverpac in a few hours, now with the 
z/OSMF response time and issues, that isn’t possible.

I still like the option that was mentioned, 2 switches, Novice, which forces 
you do everything and advanced, which would allow me to bypass steps or under 
the cover processes, IBM is forcing!!  Its just like windows, when I select 
advanced install option.

In a way I am glad I have only 7 more years left until retirement.  I love the 
mainframe and z/OS, but I avoid z/OSMF like the plague, I will only use it for 
z/OS installs only because I am forced too..

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide – Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2023 12:38 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
>The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move
>you away from the need to know what you are doing.

That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? 
iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting  in places” and “making 
it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve been doing this 
for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can’t really dispute 
it.

In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and 
tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. Sure, 
occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a 
reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I 
understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t tell 
what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And 99.44% of 
people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try.

and Colin Paice asked:
>Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly 
standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): 
sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of 
them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Jack Zukt wrote, in part:
>The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
>away from the need to know what you are doing.

That’s the *goal*. Do you know what the Windows installer is doing? Android? 
iOS? No you do not, beyond the high-level “putting  in places” and “making 
it bootable”. While it makes me nervous because, like you, I’ve been doing this 
for too long, most people see this as a good thing, and I can’t really dispute 
it.

In 1920, if you had a car, you understood air/fuel mixture, how to do oil and 
tire changes, etc. Most people don’t now, and that’s not a bad thing. Sure, 
occasionally they get stranded, but by and large, it Just Works.

On the flip side, I was switching phones and the migration failed. I did a 
reset of the new phone and restarted it, and it worked the second time. Did I 
understand the process? No. Did I need to? No. Am I happy that I couldn’t tell 
what failed? Not really, but, again, I really didn’t need to. And 99.44% of 
people wouldn’t care, as long as it worked the second try.

and Colin Paice asked:
>Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

That’s the point I made before: with Windows, you’re forced into a fairly 
standard configuration. With z/OS, it’s a bit late (by almost six decades): 
sites aren’t going to rearrange everything. For new installs (all handful of 
them), sure. But that doesn’t really help at this point, alas.


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Re: zOSMF

[Steve Thompson]

Thank you. Somehow I missed that.

On 5/26/2023 10:26 AM, Kurt J. Quackenbush wrote:

... how do we install this since we have never had a z/OS system before?

You use the z/OS COD (Customized Offerings Driver):
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=system-customized-offerings-driver

It’s a load-and-go z/OS you use strictly for installing your full blown z/OS.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF

[Kurt J. Quackenbush]

> ... how do we install this since we have never had a z/OS system before?

You use the z/OS COD (Customized Offerings Driver):
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.5.0?topic=system-customized-offerings-driver

It’s a load-and-go z/OS you use strictly for installing your full blown z/OS.

Kurt Quackenbush
IBM  |  z/OS SMP/E and z/OSMF Software Management  |  ku...@us.ibm.com

Chuck Norris never uses CHECK when he applies PTFs.

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Re: zOSMF

[Steve Thompson]

Thank you for this posting. It brings up a question that I've had 
since a problem with getting z/OS 1.6 installed...


Back when I did do z/OS sys-programming, you had to have a 
driving system (at a specific level or above) to install z/OS


So we are the ABCZ company and we have decided to get a new z16 
and setup a z/OS environment. Now how do we install this since we 
have never had a z/OS system before?


This is the thing that troubles me when we are being told about 
new installations. Maybe a VM system running Linux for z, or 
equivalent. But to get z/OS installed for the first time? How do 
you do that?


Steve Thompson



On 5/26/2023 6:57 AM, Colin Paice wrote:

Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

With ADCD environment you unzip files to get the 3390 images. You get
working system out if the box, and SMP/e environment. This looks like a
good way to go and may fit many people's requirements.   This takes away a
lot of the complexity, and allows you to start from a working base.

On Fri, May 26, 2023, 11:31 Jack Zukt  wrote:


The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
get in your way.
So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
and problem solving.
That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
Jack

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:


I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
of Harris Randy - Nashville 
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
or go the mainframe direction.
I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
I'm not a GUI fan.
It's not Windows.
I do have grey hair.
I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
(SERVERPAC) and force
those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
what we already have in place.
And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.

Randy Harris
P 615-344-3244
C 662-401-8552
james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF

CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
the content is safe.

Beverly Caldwell wrote:

If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?

I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
“How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
have any grey hair yet?”

This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the

pig

doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.



I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain

SDLC

error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to

press

a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that
plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle,
as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error
occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was

a

single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of

course.

Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard
variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak

of.

And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the
error…Good times. /s


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Re: zOSMF

[Colin Paice]

Would it help if we moved to standard configurations?

With ADCD environment you unzip files to get the 3390 images. You get
working system out if the box, and SMP/e environment. This looks like a
good way to go and may fit many people's requirements.   This takes away a
lot of the complexity, and allows you to start from a working base.

On Fri, May 26, 2023, 11:31 Jack Zukt  wrote:

> The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
> away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
> MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
> doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
> time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
> MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
> installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
> was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
> The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
> install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
> knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
> get in your way.
> So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
> and problem solving.
> That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
> Jack
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:
>
> > I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
> > bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
> >
> > 
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> > of Harris Randy - Nashville 
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: zOSMF
> >
> > I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
> > or go the mainframe direction.
> > I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
> > I'm not a GUI fan.
> > It's not Windows.
> > I do have grey hair.
> > I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
> > What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
> > (SERVERPAC) and force
> > those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
> > what we already have in place.
> > And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
> >
> > Randy Harris
> > P 615-344-3244
> > C 662-401-8552
> > james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Phil Smith III
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
> >
> > CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
> > CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> > the content is safe.
> >
> > Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> > >If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
> >
> > I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
> > “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
> > have any grey hair yet?”
> >
> > This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
> > problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the
> pig
> > doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
> > 
> >
> >
> > I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
> > which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain
> SDLC
> > error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
> > dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to
> press
> > a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that
> > plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle,
> > as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error
> > occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was
> a
> > single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of
> course.
> > Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard
> > variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak
> of.
> > And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the
> > error…Good times. /s
> >
> >
> > --
> > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archiv

Re: zOSMF

[Jack Zukt]

The real problem, as I see it, is that drag and drop interfaces move you
away from the need to know what you are doing. A long time ago, the first
MVS install that I did on my own, took me a few months to do it. I was
doing it under VM/XA and I did a few complete back to square one at the
time, as I was not pressed for time. At the time I had about two years of
MVS experience. I did read a lot of MVS and JES2 reading, you know,
installation guides,  references, customization and such. When I finnaly
was satisfied with the system I knew a lot more than when I started.
The point that I am trying to make is that you may be able to do a z/OS
install using zosmf knowing next to nothing of z/OS, but with that
knowledge you will not be able to debug any kind of problem that you will
get in your way.
So, I suppose that the next step will be some kind of IA doing the install
and problem solving.
That makes me glad that I am not so far away from retirement.
Jack

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 21:21 Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with
> bad just because the bad tools are in fashion.
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf
> of Harris Randy - Nashville 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT
> or go the mainframe direction.
> I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
> I'm not a GUI fan.
> It's not Windows.
> I do have grey hair.
> I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
> What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
> (SERVERPAC) and force
> those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use
> what we already have in place.
> And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>
> Randy Harris
> P 615-344-3244
> C 662-401-8552
> james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF
>
> CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT
> CLICK links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
> Beverly Caldwell wrote:
> >If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?
>
> I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was,
> “How do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t
> have any grey hair yet?”
>
> This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The
> problem is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig
> doesn’t always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.
> 
>
>
> I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator,
> which was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC
> error conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error
> dialog. Which was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press
> a key. At one point a customer was considering buying a power strip that
> plugged into a phone line and could be called to cause it to power cycle,
> as they had an automated process that would be stopped when this error
> occurred. Talk about a Rube Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a
> single line of code somewhere, but finding that was non-trivial, of course.
> Especially since Relay/Gold was written in x86 assembler, a non-standard
> variant from a dead company. So there were no diagnostic tools to speak of.
> And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the hardware to even simulate the
> error…Good times. /s
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email
> to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
> --
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Allan Staller]

Classification: Confidential

It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious!

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Shaffer, Terri
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 11:52 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[CAUTION: This Email is from outside the Organization. Unless you trust the 
sender, Don't click links or open attachments as it may be a Phishing email, 
which can steal your Information and compromise your Computer.]

Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness!

You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old IBM 
SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test system. And 
you learned actually what each process did.  I have seen even today system 
programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow steps 1 thru 10, 
and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do.  This is the problem 
with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance install BS, its trying to 
make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all 
different and it doesn't work, or not easily.

Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build a 
system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works 
together.  I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and 
maintenance was pretty much always done the same way.  Build the jobs once, 
change Volsers, zones, etc and submit.

No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's 
removed from the actual LPAR.  And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in 
headlights start to occur!

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Hi Rob and Terri,

I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum.  From my POV, z/OSMF 
is nothing but overhead for us.  We have a very small system.  2 LPARs, no 
sysplex, nothing difficult about it.  We build a new OS on one of them and 
clone it to the other and we're done.  All z/OSMF is going to do for us is add 
complexity to a simple system.  And I agree with Terri and Barbara that the 
next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking when z/OSMF breaks.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Rob 
Schramm
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

See you are missing the point.

If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process 
actually work.  Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 hours. 
The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a bunch that 
haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks every single 
time that somebody new touches it.  And it's not standardized then it's not 
maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know...
ad infinitum ad nauseam.  So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a pain 
in the neck.  And there will probably be some sort of compromise eventually.  
But for all the people that have these other processes, I think the 
standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately make this a lot 
easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and IBM non server pack 
software or stuff that could be on the server pack but doesn't actually belong 
there... This should help immeasurably so once again I will disagree with your 
disagreement.

Rob

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < 
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone
> was a
> 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a
> consideration.
>
> So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of
> layers to something that sound not be hard.   Running thru screens vs
> submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes.
>
> As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5
> and even OS/390, they have added a layer of complexity that eliminated
> the KISS principle, sadly.
>
> So I have to disagree..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Rob Schramm
> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 4:27 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EM

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Mike Shaw]

What chaps me the most is that it's not a complete solution. It is being
enhanced "on the fly", release-to-release, with customers as the testers.

The z/OSMF Configuration Guide at the V2R5 level is 400+ pages; the z/OSMF
Programming Guide at the V2R5 level is 1200+ pages! This is NOT a facility
that one learns to use or modify quickly.

Mike Shaw
MVS/QuickRef Support Group
Chicago-Soft, Ltd.


On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 4:22 PM Phil Smith III  wrote:

> Harris Randy wrote, in part:
> >I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
>
> >What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
> >(SERVERPAC) and force those of us with grey to learn something new
> >when we well know how to use what we already have in place. And, a lot
> >of us looking at retirement not t far away.
>
> Well, that one’s easy: Someone thinks z/OSMF does it all, so why would you
> need two things that solve the same problem? Or, being more generous,
> someone thinks z/OSMF can/will do it all, so…
>
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Harris Randy wrote, in part:
>I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.

>What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method
>(SERVERPAC) and force those of us with grey to learn something new
>when we well know how to use what we already have in place. And, a lot
>of us looking at retirement not t far away.

Well, that one’s easy: Someone thinks z/OSMF does it all, so why would you need 
two things that solve the same problem? Or, being more generous, someone thinks 
z/OSMF can/will do it all, so…


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Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

I enjoy learning new things, but I'd rather not replace good tools with bad 
just because the bad tools are in fashion.


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Harris Randy - Nashville 
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 4:17 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT or go 
the mainframe direction.
I chose the mainframe because I liked it better.
I'm not a GUI fan.
It's not Windows.
I do have grey hair.
I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method (SERVERPAC) 
and force
those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use what 
we already have in place.
And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.

Randy Harris
P 615-344-3244
C 662-401-8552
james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF

CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT CLICK 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Beverly Caldwell wrote:
>If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?

I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was, “How 
do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t have any 
grey hair yet?”

This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The problem 
is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig doesn’t 
always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.



I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator, which 
was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC error 
conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error dialog. Which 
was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press a key. At one 
point a customer was considering buying a power strip that plugged into a phone 
line and could be called to cause it to power cycle, as they had an automated 
process that would be stopped when this error occurred. Talk about a Rube 
Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a single line of code somewhere, 
but finding that was non-trivial, of course. Especially since Relay/Gold was 
written in x86 assembler, a non-standard variant from a dead company. So there 
were no diagnostic tools to speak of. And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the 
hardware to even simulate the error…Good times. /s


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Re: zOSMF

[Harris Randy - Nashville]

I had a choice 30 years ago to go into the pc, server, network side of IT or go 
the mainframe direction.
I chose the mainframe because I liked it better. 
I'm not a GUI fan.
It's not Windows.
I do have grey hair.
I do understand the need to atract younger people to the mainframe.
What I don't understand is why IBM would take away a working method (SERVERPAC) 
and force
those of us with grey to learn something new when we well know how to use what 
we already have in place. 
And, a lot of us looking at retirement not t far away.

Randy Harris
P 615-344-3244
C 662-401-8552
james.harr...@hcahealthcare.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Phil Smith III
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2023 1:58 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: {EXTERNAL} Re: Re: zOSMF

CAUTION! This email originated from outside of our organization. DO NOT CLICK 
links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content 
is safe.

Beverly Caldwell wrote:
>If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?

I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was, “How 
do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t have any 
grey hair yet?”

This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The problem 
is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig doesn’t 
always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig.



I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator, which 
was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC error 
conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error dialog. Which 
was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press a key. At one 
point a customer was considering buying a power strip that plugged into a phone 
line and could be called to cause it to power cycle, as they had an automated 
process that would be stopped when this error occurred. Talk about a Rube 
Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a single line of code somewhere, 
but finding that was non-trivial, of course. Especially since Relay/Gold was 
written in x86 assembler, a non-standard variant from a dead company. So there 
were no diagnostic tools to speak of. And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the 
hardware to even simulate the error…Good times. /s


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Beverly Caldwell wrote:
>If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?

I’m going to take that as a straight question. I assume the question was, “How 
do we make z/OS easier to install and maintain for folks who don’t have any 
grey hair yet?”

This is essentially the same question that led to GUIs in general. The problem 
is that it’s not trivial to answer—putting some lipstick on the pig doesn’t 
always do it: sometimes you need to restructure the pig. 



I’m reminded of the Windows version of the Relay/Gold terminal emulator, which 
was acquired by VM Systems Group when I was there. Under certain SDLC error 
conditions, it would drop out of the Windows UI into a DOS error dialog. Which 
was not really recoverable, since it needed someone to press a key. At one 
point a customer was considering buying a power strip that plugged into a phone 
line and could be called to cause it to power cycle, as they had an automated 
process that would be stopped when this error occurred. Talk about a Rube 
Goldberg solution! I’m sure the real fix was a single line of code somewhere, 
but finding that was non-trivial, of course. Especially since Relay/Gold was 
written in x86 assembler, a non-standard variant from a dead company. So there 
were no diagnostic tools to speak of. And as a tiny vendor, we didn’t have the 
hardware to even simulate the error…Good times. /s


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Beverly Caldwell]

If zosmf is the answer what the hell was the question?

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 12:16 PM Colin Paice  wrote:

> For one IBM PP, they had a zosmf process for customising. It made the
> trivial bits easier, and ignored the hard bits eg  setting up SMS and RACF
> definitions. Once configured I could not see how to change the
> configuration. For setting up second instance you had to start from the
> beginning.
>
> If z/osmf is the answer perhaps the configuration could have
> novice/intermediate/ expert. For novice it should hide standard defaults
> and show what you MUST configure. For expert it shows all options. Help
> displays novice
> / Intermediate / expert levels as well
> Colin
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2023, 18:52 Shaffer, Terri <
> 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness!
> >
> > You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The
> old
> > IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test
> > system. And you learned actually what each process did.  I have seen even
> > today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow
> > steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do.
> > This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance
> > install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS,
> volumes,
> > catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily.
> >
> > Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build
> > a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works
> > together.  I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and
> > maintenance was pretty much always done the same way.  Build the jobs
> once,
> > change Volsers, zones, etc and submit.
> >
> > No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's
> > removed from the actual LPAR.  And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in
> > headlights start to occur!
> >
> > Ms Terri E Shaffer
> > Senior Systems Engineer,
> > z/OS Support:
> > ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> > H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> > terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Pommier, Rex
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> >
> > EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the
> > content is safe.
> >
> >
> > Hi Rob and Terri,
> >
> > I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum.  From my POV,
> > z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us.  We have a very small system.  2
> > LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it.  We build a new OS on one
> of
> > them and clone it to the other and we're done.  All z/OSMF is going to do
> > for us is add complexity to a simple system.  And I agree with Terri and
> > Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go
> looking
> > when z/OSMF breaks.
> >
> > Rex
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> > Of Rob Schramm
> > Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM
> > To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
> >
> > See you are missing the point.
> >
> > If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process
> > actually work.  Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2
> > hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that
> there's a
> > bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that
> breaks
> > every single time that somebody new touches it.  And it's not
> standardized
> > then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you
> know...
> > ad infinitum ad nauseam.  So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a
> > pain in the neck.  And there will probably be some sort of compromise
> > eventually.  But for all the people that have these other processes, I
> > think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately
> > make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software
> and
> > IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack
> but
> > doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once
> > again I will disagree with your disagreement.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 6, 2

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Phil Smith III]

Terri Shaffer wrote, in part:
>This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software
>instance install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones
>SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or
>not easily.

This is the problem Windows had to overcome. Remember when Windows applications 
were just DOS applications with a Windows GUI overlay? They were great until 
you did the wrong thing and fell off the edge into line-mode land. That’s where 
z/OSMF and ZOWE really are today.

One of the things Windows was able to do was mandate some file structure, e.g., 
C:\Windows and (later) C:\Program Files (plus the Registry), that gave some of 
this required structure. (And yes, you COULD install it somewhere other than 
C:, but good luck with that—every case I’ve ever seen had weird problems with 
installing other software that expected C:.) 

There WAS nobody with 50 years of running Windows, terabytes of data, thousands 
of extant jobs, etc. – plus each new version of Windows was a fresh install, so 
it was your problem to get your data over to the new machine anyway.

This is where I lose interest in z/OSMF and ZOWE: they’re great until you fall 
off the cliff, either through something you did or because your stuff wasn’t 
where/how it expected it to be.

I don’t know that this is necessarily an intractable problem, but it’s 
certainly one that needs to be recognized and addressed. By IBM. And while it 
may be solvable, it would take a lot of research and investment, which I doubt 
can be justified at this point in the life of the product and IBM’s direction.


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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Colin Paice]

For one IBM PP, they had a zosmf process for customising. It made the
trivial bits easier, and ignored the hard bits eg  setting up SMS and RACF
definitions. Once configured I could not see how to change the
configuration. For setting up second instance you had to start from the
beginning.

If z/osmf is the answer perhaps the configuration could have
novice/intermediate/ expert. For novice it should hide standard defaults
and show what you MUST configure. For expert it shows all options. Help
displays novice
/ Intermediate / expert levels as well
Colin

On Wed, May 24, 2023, 18:52 Shaffer, Terri <
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness!
>
> You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old
> IBM SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test
> system. And you learned actually what each process did.  I have seen even
> today system programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow
> steps 1 thru 10, and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do.
> This is the problem with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance
> install BS, its trying to make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes,
> catalogs, etc are all different and it doesn't work, or not easily.
>
> Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build
> a system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works
> together.  I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and
> maintenance was pretty much always done the same way.  Build the jobs once,
> change Volsers, zones, etc and submit.
>
> No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's
> removed from the actual LPAR.  And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in
> headlights start to occur!
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Pommier, Rex
> Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the
> content is safe.
>
>
> Hi Rob and Terri,
>
> I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum.  From my POV,
> z/OSMF is nothing but overhead for us.  We have a very small system.  2
> LPARs, no sysplex, nothing difficult about it.  We build a new OS on one of
> them and clone it to the other and we're done.  All z/OSMF is going to do
> for us is add complexity to a simple system.  And I agree with Terri and
> Barbara that the next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking
> when z/OSMF breaks.
>
> Rex
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf
> Of Rob Schramm
> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF
>
> See you are missing the point.
>
> If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process
> actually work.  Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2
> hours. The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a
> bunch that haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks
> every single time that somebody new touches it.  And it's not standardized
> then it's not maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know...
> ad infinitum ad nauseam.  So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a
> pain in the neck.  And there will probably be some sort of compromise
> eventually.  But for all the people that have these other processes, I
> think the standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately
> make this a lot easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and
> IBM non server pack software or stuff that could be on the server pack but
> doesn't actually belong there... This should help immeasurably so once
> again I will disagree with your disagreement.
>
> Rob
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri <
> 017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>
> > When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone
> > was a
> > 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a
> > consideration.
> >
> > So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of
> > layers to something that sound not be hard.   Running thru screens vs
> > submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes.
> >
> > As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5
> > 

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

[Shaffer, Terri]

Completely agree with the overhead and complicatedness!

You know what's sad, is when I started in mainframes 39 years ago, The old IBM 
SE sat with me gave me the basics, etc and said go for it on a test system. And 
you learned actually what each process did.  I have seen even today system 
programmers that are clueless, all they were told was follow steps 1 thru 10, 
and if it fails in step x, they have no clue what to do.  This is the problem 
with z/OSMF and especially the new software instance install BS, its trying to 
make it idiot proof, but everyones SMS, volumes, catalogs, etc are all 
different and it doesn't work, or not easily.

Us old timers, are the only ones that really understand z/OS, could build a 
system from scratch, understand NIP, NET, JES2 and how everything works 
together.  I have worked at 7 different companies in my 39 years and 
maintenance was pretty much always done the same way.  Build the jobs once, 
change Volsers, zones, etc and submit.

No GUI clicky BS, processor intensive, certificate ridden process, that's 
removed from the actual LPAR.  And when z/OSMF doesn't work, then deer in 
headlights start to occur!

Ms Terri E Shaffer
Senior Systems Engineer,
z/OS Support:
ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of 
Pommier, Rex
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:53 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know the 
content is safe.


Hi Rob and Terri,

I'll weigh in here from the opposite end of the spectrum.  From my POV, z/OSMF 
is nothing but overhead for us.  We have a very small system.  2 LPARs, no 
sysplex, nothing difficult about it.  We build a new OS on one of them and 
clone it to the other and we're done.  All z/OSMF is going to do for us is add 
complexity to a simple system.  And I agree with Terri and Barbara that the 
next gen of sysprog won't have a clue where to go looking when z/OSMF breaks.

Rex

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On Behalf Of Rob 
Schramm
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: zOSMF

See you are missing the point.

If you have 117 lpars, of course you going to work on making the process 
actually work.  Because every minute you save in that process is worth 2 hours. 
The point is is that for each institution that's done that there's a bunch that 
haven't or they've got some jammed together process that breaks every single 
time that somebody new touches it.  And it's not standardized then it's not 
maintained and it's poorly documented and it's... you know...
ad infinitum ad nauseam.  So for you ... I agree it's probably more of a pain 
in the neck.  And there will probably be some sort of compromise eventually.  
But for all the people that have these other processes, I think the 
standardization that is going to come from this will ultimately make this a lot 
easier. And the dealing with the myriad of ISP software and IBM non server pack 
software or stuff that could be on the server pack but doesn't actually belong 
there... This should help immeasurably so once again I will disagree with your 
disagreement.

Rob

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023, 20:12 Shaffer, Terri < 
017d5f778222-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:

> When I worked at Chase bank, We had 117 LPARS and maintenance/clone
> was a
> 30 minute task. So adding z/OSMF was never even brought up as a
> consideration.
>
> So while I understand the direction IBM is headed, its adding LOTS of
> layers to something that sound not be hard.   Running thru screens vs
> submitting a canned job, is hours vs minutes.
>
> As much as I love my job and starting with MVS 1.3.8 to now z/OS 2.5
> and even OS/390, they have added a layer of complexity that eliminated
> the KISS principle, sadly.
>
> So I have to disagree..
>
> Ms Terri E Shaffer
> Senior Systems Engineer,
> z/OS Support:
> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  On
> Behalf Of Rob Schramm
> Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 4:27 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: Re: zOSMF
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know
> the content is safe.
>
>
> I think the promise of zosmf is far beyond just a server pack replacement.
> Yeah server pack was great for what it was but when it comes to the
> grind of installing over and over and over again and the customization
> the workflow features I believe really hold the promise to fixing what
> is a continuously pain in the butt situation.  And hopefully they'll
> continue to make it lighter and lighter.  But the oth

Auto: Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Frederic Mancini]

Je suis absent le 17 avril 2023.

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Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Andrew Rowley]

On 1/03/2023 9:01 am, Andrew Rowley wrote:

The Achilles heel for Java on z/OS seems to be dataset I/O. It's 
adequate, but feels like it should be faster. (I haven't actually done 
direct comparisons with other languages.)


Following up an old post of my own here, because I did actually compare 
the JZOS RecordReader to other languages (C and Assembler).


It turns out I was wrong, and the Java I/O using RecordReader seems to 
be close to the speed of Assembler and C. Certainly not slow as I 
thought. So Java is fast all round.


Incidentally, zEDC compressed datasets give a big boost in I/O speed for 
reading SMF data in my testing, e.g. 2-5x faster. This was tested on 
the  on the Dallas RDP system under VM - I don't know whether VM affects 
I/O performance.


--
Andrew Rowley
Black Hill Software

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Re: zOSMF certificates

[Mark Zelden]

On Thu, 30 Mar 2023 18:55:17 +, rpinion865  
wrote:

>If you installed the zOSMF certificates from the IZUSEC member of 
>SYS1.SAMPLIB, you might want to check the certificate expiration date. Ours 
>was set to May 17, 2023. We've deleted and regenerated the certificate with a 
>much later date. Hopefully, past my retirement date.
>

Yeah, I  just had to work with the security team to renew them in 9 sysplexes 
in February. Fun!! 

I happen to have had an open case with IBM about disabling ciphers that my 
clients security scanner complained about in the middle of this activity and I 
did let them know the samples should be updated.  Even in z/OS 2.5 it is the 
same.  If someone was just implementing z/OSMF under z/OS 2.5 the and used the 
samples without paying attention to those dates,  they'd already be expiring.   
I implemented z/OSMF in 2018 under z/OS 2.3 based on the samples so at least we 
had 5 years.We put the new expiration 10 years out.  

Regards,

Mark
--
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ITIL v3 Foundation Certified
mailto:m...@mzelden.com
Mark's MVS Utilities: http://www.mzelden.com/mvsutil.html
Systems Programming expert at http://search390.techtarget.com/ateExperts/
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Re: REXX, ooRexx, BSF4ooRExx (Re: Ad TCP/Socket programs in REXX (Re: Mainframe REXX (Re: Badmouthing Rexx and ooRexx - again (Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers

[Rony G. Flatscher]

On 08.03.2023 02:30, David Crayford wrote:

On 8/3/23 02:26, Rony G. Flatscher wrote:
There also appears to be bugs in SysThread where the "attached" member variable is not 
initialized in the constructor that takes a pthread_t argument.


Ah, interesting that this is regarded a stumbling block, how about pthread_getunique_np() or such 
then?



Obviously, the "_np" suffix stands for "non-portable". It doesn't exist on z/OS! I happen to know 
the internal structure of the opaque pthread_t structure on z/OS and to extract the thread ID (TCB 
address) one would implement something like:


int gettid() { return (int)(pthread_self().__ & 0x7fff); }


Erich, a developer, has applied a fix that should make it possible to get over this on z/OS with an 
elegant solution, here his respective comment:


   Committed code fix with revision [r12649]
   As reported by David Crayford, pthread_t is a struct on z/OS and setting or 
casting it, fails

Good luck with your next attempt to compile ooRexx on z/OS and please let us 
know how you fare!
:)

---rony


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Re: zOSMF

[Seymour J Metz]

MVS/SE R1 ("SE1") installed on top of OS/VS2 R3.7 and MVS/SE R2 ("SE2") 
installed on top of OS/VS2 R3.8; in both cases one of the prerequisite 
selectable units disabled DSS ("By the pricking of my thumbs, SU7 this way 
comes.")

MVS/SP V1 replaced SE2 and exploited, but did not require, various features. 
And, yes, it did support 26-bit real addresses. I saw it on a 4341, but it ran 
on anything that had a DAT box, enough memory and an S/370 mode.











mM


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List  on behalf of 
Steve Thompson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 3:18 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: zOSMF

Interesting. I remember MVS/SE[1] and MVS/SE2 -- vaguely, before
MVS/SP1.

I remember macros and fiche mentioning 3033MP and I thought it
was 32MB support since each side had 16MB. And I think it was
only the NUC that had that support built into it. The early bar
as it were. ;-)

And then came MVS/SP2 (aka XA).

Steve Thompson



On 3/8/2023 2:13 PM, Mike Schwab wrote:
>>> MVS/SP Version 1.3.8 (for MVS/370)
> MVS/SP is for running 24 bit programs on 17-64MB real memory.
> Copyrighted and not available currently.
> MVS 3.8 is what is freely available, limited to 16MB real memory.
>
> On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 12:59 PM Tom Marchant
> <000a2a8c2020-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu> wrote:
>> Maybe she means what she said. MVS/SP Version 1.3.8 is referenced as a 
>> supported operating environment in this:
>> https://nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fcommon%2Fssi%2Fcgi-bin%2Fssialias%3Finfotype%3Ddd%26subtype%3Dsm%26appname%3DShopzSeries%26htmlfid%3D897%2FENUS5695-002=05%7C01%7Csmetz3%40gmu.edu%7C14f2099ea2ee47277a9508db20124830%7C9e857255df574c47a0c00546460380cb%7C0%7C0%7C638139035146559532%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=Fpg2BMblpmM4IYw753djb%2B1hbWO55YIIFk6bbM6RGkQ%3D=0
>>
>> --
>> Tom Marchant
>>
>> On Tue, 7 Mar 2023 16:03:13 -0500, David Spiegel  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Terri,
>>> Maybe you mean OS2/MVS 3.8(J)?
>>> That could've been circa 1986.
>>> (I also have a similar progression, but, did VS1 7D with BPE before MVS.)
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> David
>>>
>>> On 2023-03-07 15:25, Shaffer, Terri wrote:
>>>> It was 1984/1985, maybe 1986 even, as my memory is foggy..  yes mvs/sp 3.8 
>>>> I added the 1.  Then XA/ESA/OS390/z-OS
>>>>
>>>> Ms Terri E Shaffer
>>>> Senior Systems Engineer,
>>>> z/OS Support:
>>>> ACIWorldwide - Telecommuter
>>>> H(412-766-2697) C(412-519-2592)
>>>> terri.shaf...@aciworldwide.com
>> --
>> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
>> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>
>

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