subject:"z\/OS \"interactive computing\" \- AKA TSO\/ISPF or UNIX shell"


On 17/03/2018 9:27 AM, Bernd Oppolzer wrote:

The motivation for the RDz migration was:

a) some problems of isolation of source codes which have been
checked out from other developers (this has been fixed partially
in the meantime, and it can be fixed totally by moving all sources
to the DB2 repository and making the checkout datasets private
and protected)

b) the hope that younger developers can be moved to mainframe
development by a more "modern" IDE (but they aren't interested,
anyway ... they simply don't want to learn PL/1 and such things,
which they consider hard). 


We've been quite lucky that the young guys we've hired have been 
adaptable and pick up
the mainframe pretty quickly. One guy we interviewed thought ISPF was 
cool in a kind of retro way
like the old 8-bit games that are back in fashion. One thing they all 
universally detest is JCL. I suppose

if you come from a bash or powershell background it may seem a bit alien.

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On 16/03/2018 11:21 PM, Kirk Wolf wrote:

David and Jerry -

Curious, but have you guys tried the REST Api for z/OS Jobs?
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.izua700/IZUHPINFO_API_RESTJOBS.htm

That's an interesting idea. That might be a fun Node.JS project. I just
read the doc and the REST API looks cool. One thing I did notice is that
IBM use
their propriety LTPA tokens for authentication. Why didn't they use JSON
web tokens like everybody else?

This is what CICS explorer uses for jobs.

Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

PS> Co:Z SFTP also has complete JES support (using SSI 80; JES spool
dataset browse). wouldn't be too hard to roll your own client using your
favorite language and ssh/sftp library. A fancy UI could start displaying
spool files as they stream to make it snappier, although it would still
probably be tough to quite match the performance of SDSF just because how
low level it is.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 8:33 AM, David Crayford wrote:

Jerry,

I've found that the SDSF REXX API works well in USS and have written
several scripts to do useful stuff like bounce web server started tasks. We
use this from Atlassians Bamboo CI tooling to deploy web applications to
z/OS triggered from git merges in Bitbucket. Rockets git port has been a
game changer for us! If there was a curses library for REXX it would be
possible to write something similar to SDSF for the shell. There is also
the oeconsol command to execute MVS commands from the shell which is really
cool.

Like you I prefer to work in z/OS UNIX with all the code in the file
system. It's so much better than using data sets. We don't have Linux on Z
installed but do a lot of work on x86 Linux servers. You mentioned
hipersockets which is great for shuttling data around at high speeds for
JDBC and stuff in production systems but what other advantages does it
offer for development?

On 16/03/2018 8:21 PM, Jerry Callen wrote:

I'm going to be an EXTREME outlier here.

Background: I learned computing on OS/360 thru MVS, first using cards,
then TSO/ISPF. I jumped ship to Unix in the mid 80s and now I'm back on the
mainframe, doing ports of open source software to z/OS (under USS) at
Rocket Software.

I am logged into both USS (via ssh from PuTTY) and TSO/ISPF (via
BlueZone) from a Windows laptop all day long. If I had a decent tool for
accessing JES (there's no avoiding SDSF for the time being) from USS, I'd
NEVER be in TSO.

I use emacs as my development environment. I don't call it an "editor"
because it does so much more than edit text. In particular, the "shell
buffer" feature is indispensible; think of TSO session manager, but on
insane steroids. The USS port of emacs is ancient and creaky (though I
dearly hope we can remedy that within the next year), and I will grant that
emacs has a very stiff learning curve, but once you know it, it's
unbelievably productive.

For source control, I use the Rocket port of git. Essentially all of our
mainframe development is moving from other source control systems (SCLM,
cvs, svn) to git; there are good open source tools for converting from cvs
and svn that preserve all the history and branches.

For builds, I use whatever the open source project I'm currently working
on uses, which is generally some variation on automake/autoconf/configure/make.
The automake/autoconf situation on z/OS isn't yet what it wants to be. For
my own projects, I just use raw make. I often create make files that work
on both USS and Linux on Z (my go-to Unix when I need to use a tool not yet
on USS).

In short: I treat z/OS as a Unix box. Nearly all of the compilers (COBOL,
PL/I, C/C++, plus the assembler and binder) can be used from USS, on Unix
files (no need to move source, maclibs, include files, etc. into a PDS).
IBM has provided very good, albeit complex and tricky to use well,
ASCII/EBCDIC "bimodal" encoding support to ease the encoding problem. IBM
is actively porting newer languages (like JavaScript in node.js) to z/OS.

I can run TSO commands from the shell prompt (using, of course, the
"tsocmd" command...) when I need to. I keep building tools to help insulate
me from TSO and batch (like my SMP query interface at
https://github.com/zorts/smpapi), and of course Rocket continues to
release new and updated tools for free (though our bandwidth is
limited...). The big remaining hole is JES queue access. I can, of course,
submit jobs from USS, but getting the output in a nice, consumable manner
remains a challenge; hence, my TSO session.

We have a cadre of younger developers who follow a similar path, though
often using vim instead of emacs, and im some cases Windows-based editors
(Eclipse, Webstorm, SlickEdit, etc.) and FTP.

Bear in mind that my first "real" editor was ISPF, which I used for
years. Even with that history, I can't imagine using it for any serious
editing at this point.

Slight diversion: Linux on Z is a

Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Bernd Oppolzer


Am 16.03.2018 um 15:20 schrieb David Crayford:

On 16/03/2018 5:16 PM, Itschak Mugzach wrote:

The purpose of RDZ was to save expensive TSO cycles and overhead.


That's interesting! RDz spawns a UNIX process for each connection and 
the server is written in Java which makes extensive JNI calls. I would 
suggest that RDz is significantly more expensive WRT CPU cycles than 
ISPF.


Same for us. When we were in the RDz migration project
(which was cancelled in the end), we sometimes had severe
LPAR CPU consumption issues during RDz builds ... with our
"old" TSO ISPF based system, we never had such issues.

The motivation for the RDz migration was:

a) some problems of isolation of source codes which have been
checked out from other developers (this has been fixed partially
in the meantime, and it can be fixed totally by moving all sources
to the DB2 repository and making the checkout datasets private
and protected)

b) the hope that younger developers can be moved to mainframe
development by a more "modern" IDE (but they aren't interested,
anyway ... they simply don't want to learn PL/1 and such things,
which they consider hard).

BTW: I don't use the ISPF editor for everyday's work; I have all
my projects in PC or server directories and do the editing there
using KEDIT or THE (the Hessling Editor), and I send the files to
the mainframe only for compilation. I have also all tools for
searching and comparing at hand that I need, in best quality.
This is the best environment I can imagine. For my private
Stanford Pascal compiler project I use a GitHub repository.
Many of my co-workers do the same. So for us there is no
need to have a more "modern" IDE. For me and my co-workers
it would have been a pain to be forced to use "RDz only",
especially if there are no powerful import facilities.

Kind regards

Bernd

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Tom Conley


On 3/16/2018 11:57 AM, John McKown wrote:


Yes, it has some nice facilities. But I cannot _easily_ invoke UNIX
commands from it, doing "UNIXy" things. And don't get me started on the
TSO OMVS command (which I despise mainly due to the limitations of TSO
3270).

Basically what I would like is to "invert" the "normal" process that I've
seen - that being when when someone uses the TSO OMVS command under ISPF to
do UNIX commands while staying in TSO. What I really want is to invoke ISPF
from a UNIX prompt, replacing the 3270 terminal interface with either a
"curses" (aka termcap) or a X11 terminal interface. Being able to do TSO
commands under UNIX ISPF would also be nice. REXX under UNIX has a nice
facility where it starts up a TSO address space when an ADDRESS TSO is
first used in a REXX program; said TSO address space continues until
explicitly shut down via a LOGOFF command or implicitly when the REXX
program ends.





Go to 3.17, Options, Directory List options, and put a slash in front of 
execute UNIX commnands from command line.  You now have a Unix shell. 
enter "/" on the command line to get a command entry panel like ISPF 
option 6 or SDSF.  Caveat, you need to use full Unix path for the filenames.


Regards,
Tom Conley

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

I was thinking of 3270 rather than LU1; the support is in TGET, TPG, TPUT and 
friends.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:57 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:

> The half-duplex use of the 3270 is an application, e.g., TMP,
> restriction:  the VTIOC macros support a full duplex mode.
>

Ah. Thanks. I don't know anything about VTIOC. I'll need to take a look at
it. ... A quick look at
https://secure-web.cisco.com/1z5XRgkDDuTEpEPDkgUreYQARmHY_2BS2--IP-SmbN-Pe9bAvPnoboO5f7Kzs1qge6_2C7hWyXvZyMI8vh5trY9zvw83LiEi4GTR-a9tF2HKQLnDRcOJ25Bta5UNaARDIBi1hrcvWWYJrFnaBdw3y-DzrStWJOrK09JCv3X0HU-KkMXSEYnfWYE992Fh5tUpj0OwSHNBRrkBStFVi9K_S-i232vpEl-nOikN8g1vjdUf_N3RvUt5Di-HOGLWk0WYGEkuzy4tgmbWE_aqJK96xL9mHOnRLN2o0A8x5zJsseAEY7oeIu3dr0qPQ235YPMbqjwKZqBuE_dJW15fcwBNav2fTOHs-Rw4-KPR08ncjgb24A1Ms5BvzJC8724Use24-aDnnH1hrxiQJnS1w3ni6FKxt2qLRwihkQRSO62LHZjLflxYbPZpFabvss7wzPZ2e/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fsupport%2Fknowledgecenter%2Fen%2FSSLTBW_2.1.0%2Fcom.ibm.zos.v2r1.istimp0%2Fappend.htm
shows that TSO still support non-3270 VTAM terminals. It might be
interesting to write a "3767" emulator (hum, that may just be telnet) to
have a UNIX session "logon" to a 3767 TSO session. Hum, I need to think
about this a bit. Not that I'm likely to actually do anything. My interest
in z/OS, and computing in general, is tending downward for various reasons.

>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf
> of John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Don't confuse the limitations of the TSO VTIOC for 3270 with the
> > limitations of the application using them. The klunkiness of the OMVS
> > command is because they didn't choose to avail themselves of the
> available
> > services.
> >
>
> The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
> of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
> services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
> to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
> way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
> course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
> still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
> productivity".
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
>
>
> --
> I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
> it.
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
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--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

The VTIOC macros are the same as the old TIOC macros, with some extensions 
<https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.istimp0/append.htm>.

Macros like TGET, TPUT, TPG used to be in a manual called Guide to Writing a 
Terminal Monitor Program or a Command Processor; I don't recall the current 
title.




--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
Farley, Peter x23353 <peter.far...@broadridge.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 3:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

PMFJI here, but you piqued my curiosity - What exactly are these VTIOC macros, 
and where would one find them?  Or are you talking about the normal VTAM SEND 
and RECEIVE processes?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

The half-duplex use of the 3270 is an application, e.g., TMP, restriction:  the 
VTIOC macros support a full duplex mode.

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Re: TSO authorized concurrent integrity [was: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell]

2018-03-16 Thread Farley, Peter x23353

I do not understand -- How can a second authorized program running concurrently 
to an already-running authorized program provide opportunity for an integrity 
threat?  Or am I just not clever (or evil) enough to conceive of a way to 
violate integrity in such a scenario?  Don't all the normal authorized 
integrity rules and fences still hold for concurrent programs?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 3:24 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:35:40 -0500, John McKown wrote:
>
>The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
>of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
>services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
>to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
>way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
>course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
>still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
>productivity".
> 
TSO's single address space design invites integrity threats if authorized 
programs
run concurrently.  Would you propose forking background programs into separate
address spaces?  Would BPX1EXM be a solution?

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Farley, Peter x23353

PMFJI here, but you piqued my curiosity - What exactly are these VTIOC macros, 
and where would one find them?  Or are you talking about the normal VTAM SEND 
and RECEIVE processes?

Peter

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:44 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

The half-duplex use of the 3270 is an application, e.g., TMP, restriction:  the 
VTIOC macros support a full duplex mode.

--

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Paul Gilmartin

On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 13:35:40 -0500, John McKown wrote:
>
>The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
>of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
>services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
>to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
>way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
>course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
>still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
>productivity".
> 
TSO's single address space design invites integrity threats if authorized 
programs
run concurrently.  Would you propose forking background programs into separate
address spaces?  Would BPX1EXM be a solution?

-- gil

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:

> The half-duplex use of the 3270 is an application, e.g., TMP,
> restriction:  the VTIOC macros support a full duplex mode.
>

Ah. Thanks. I don't know anything about VTIOC. I'll need to take a look at
it. ... A quick look at
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.istimp0/append.htm
shows that TSO still support non-3270 VTAM terminals. It might be
interesting to write a "3767" emulator (hum, that may just be telnet) to
have a UNIX session "logon" to a 3767 TSO session. Hum, I need to think
about this a bit. Not that I'm likely to actually do anything. My interest
in z/OS, and computing in general, is tending downward for various reasons.



>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>
> 
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf
> of John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:35 PM
> To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
> Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Don't confuse the limitations of the TSO VTIOC for 3270 with the
> > limitations of the application using them. The klunkiness of the OMVS
> > command is because they didn't choose to avail themselves of the
> available
> > services.
> >
>
> The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
> of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
> services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
> to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
> way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
> course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
> still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
> productivity".
>
>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> > http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
> >
>
>
> --
> I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
> it.
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
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-- 
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

The half-duplex use of the 3270 is an application, e.g., TMP, restriction:  the 
VTIOC macros support a full duplex mode.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 2:35 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Seymour J Metz <sme...@gmu.edu> wrote:

> Don't confuse the limitations of the TSO VTIOC for 3270 with the
> limitations of the application using them. The klunkiness of the OMVS
> command is because they didn't choose to avail themselves of the available
> services.
>

The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
productivity".

>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>

--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 1:29 PM, Seymour J Metz  wrote:

> Don't confuse the limitations of the TSO VTIOC for 3270 with the
> limitations of the application using them. The klunkiness of the OMVS
> command is because they didn't choose to avail themselves of the available
> services.
>

The only deficit that I see in the OMVS command is that it is what I think
of as "native" TSO 3270 whereas it should be, like SDSF, use ISPF display
services when used when they are available. I've more or less gotten used
to the "half duplex" use of the 3270 in TSO. What might be nice would be a
way, in TSO, to "background" a TSO command like you can a UNIX command. Of
course, I must remember that TSO was designed in the days of OS/MVT and is
still more concerned with "resource consumption" rather that "user
productivity".

>
>
> --
> Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
>

-- 
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

Don't confuse the limitations of the TSO VTIOC for 3270 with the limitations of 
the application using them. The klunkiness of the OMVS command is because they 
didn't choose to avail themselves of the available services.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu> on behalf of 
John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2018 11:58 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@listserv.ua.edu
Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:36 AM, Nightwatch RenBand <
johnmattson...@gmail.com> wrote:

> John, you may already know this, but if you do "TSO ISHELL"  you can then d
> B Browse or E Edit on a OMVS file and you have most, perhaps all I haven't
> checked everything, that ISPF editor can do.  Try it
>
>
Yes, it has some nice facilities. But I cannot _easily_ invoke UNIX
commands from it, doing "UNIXy" things. And don't get me started on the
TSO OMVS command (which I despise mainly due to the limitations of TSO
3270).

Basically what I would like is to "invert" the "normal" process that I've
seen - that being when when someone uses the TSO OMVS command under ISPF to
do UNIX commands while staying in TSO. What I really want is to invoke ISPF
from a UNIX prompt, replacing the 3270 terminal interface with either a
"curses" (aka termcap) or a X11 terminal interface. Being able to do TSO
commands under UNIX ISPF would also be nice. REXX under UNIX has a nice
facility where it starts up a TSO address space when an ADDRESS TSO is
first used in a REXX program; said TSO address space continues until
explicitly shut down via a LOGOFF command or implicitly when the REXX
program ends.

--
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Jerry Whitteridge

I do the same - ISPF sessions for ISPF and Putty or Konsole sessions for
Omvs

Jerry Whitteridge
Delivery Manager - Safeway
602 527 4871 Mobile
jerry.whitteri...@ibm.com

IBM Services

IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote on
03/16/2018 09:35:37 AM:

> From: John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date: 03/16/2018 09:36 AM
> Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell
> Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Jerry Whitteridge <
> jerry.whitteri...@ibm.com> wrote:
>
> > I believe he means from inside of OMVS you can issue "tso ISHELL" and
get
> > to the ISHELL menus.
> >
>
> Interesting thought. I don't usually use TSO OMVS. I find it easier, for
> me, to have TSO ISPF going normally and then get to a UNIX prompt via
ssh.
> This works OK for me, so I guess I should stop wishing for ISPF under
UNIX.
>
>
>

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Jerry Whitteridge <
jerry.whitteri...@ibm.com> wrote:

> I believe he means from inside of OMVS you can issue "tso ISHELL" and get
> to the ISHELL menus.
>

Interesting thought. I don't usually use TSO OMVS. I find it easier, for
me, to have TSO ISPF going normally and then get to a UNIX prompt via ssh.
This works OK for me, so I guess I should stop wishing for ISPF under UNIX.



>
> This only works from a 3270 initiated OMVS session and not a ssh login via
> putty or similar.
>
> Jerry Whitteridge
> Delivery Manager - Safeway
> 602 527 4871 Mobile
> jerry.whitteri...@ibm.com
>
> IBM Services
>
> IBM Mainframe Discussion List  wrote on
> 03/16/2018 08:58:37 AM:
>


-- 
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Jerry Whitteridge

I believe he means from inside of OMVS you can issue "tso ISHELL" and get
to the ISHELL menus.

This only works from a 3270 initiated OMVS session and not a ssh login via
putty or similar.

Jerry Whitteridge
Delivery Manager - Safeway
602 527 4871 Mobile
jerry.whitteri...@ibm.com

IBM Services

IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> wrote on
03/16/2018 08:58:37 AM:

> From: John McKown <john.archie.mck...@gmail.com>
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Date: 03/16/2018 08:58 AM
> Subject: Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell
> Sent by: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:36 AM, Nightwatch RenBand <
> johnmattson...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > John, you may already know this, but if you do "TSO ISHELL"  you can
then d
> > B Browse or E Edit on a OMVS file and you have most, perhaps all I
haven't
> > checked everything, that ISPF editor can do.  Try it
> >
> >
> Yes, it has some nice facilities. But I cannot _easily_ invoke UNIX
> commands from it, doing "UNIXy" things. And don't get me started on the
> TSO OMVS command (which I despise mainly due to the limitations of TSO
> 3270).
>
> Basically what I would like is to "invert" the "normal" process that I've
> seen - that being when when someone uses the TSO OMVS command under ISPF
to
> do UNIX commands while staying in TSO. What I really want is to invoke
ISPF
> from a UNIX prompt, replacing the 3270 terminal interface with either a
> "curses" (aka termcap) or a X11 terminal interface. Being able to do TSO
> commands under UNIX ISPF would also be nice. REXX under UNIX has a nice
> facility where it starts up a TSO address space when an ADDRESS TSO is
> first used in a REXX program; said TSO address space continues until
> explicitly shut down via a LOGOFF command or implicitly when the REXX
> program ends.
>
>
> --
> I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
> it.
>
> Maranatha! <><
> John McKown
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:36 AM, Nightwatch RenBand <
johnmattson...@gmail.com> wrote:

> John, you may already know this, but if you do "TSO ISHELL"  you can then d
> B Browse or E Edit on a OMVS file and you have most, perhaps all I haven't
> checked everything, that ISPF editor can do.  Try it
>
>
Yes, it has some nice facilities. But I cannot _easily_ invoke UNIX
commands from it, doing "UNIXy" things. And don't get me started on the
TSO OMVS command (which I despise mainly due to the limitations of TSO
3270).

Basically what I would like is to "invert" the "normal" process that I've
seen - that being when when someone uses the TSO OMVS command under ISPF to
do UNIX commands while staying in TSO. What I really want is to invoke ISPF
from a UNIX prompt, replacing the 3270 terminal interface with either a
"curses" (aka termcap) or a X11 terminal interface. Being able to do TSO
commands under UNIX ISPF would also be nice. REXX under UNIX has a nice
facility where it starts up a TSO address space when an ADDRESS TSO is
first used in a REXX program; said TSO address space continues until
explicitly shut down via a LOGOFF command or implicitly when the REXX
program ends.

-- 
I have a theory that it's impossible to prove anything, but I can't prove
it.

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Nightwatch RenBand

John, you may already know this, but if you do "TSO ISHELL"  you can then d
B Browse or E Edit on a OMVS file and you have most, perhaps all I haven't
checked everything, that ISPF editor can do.  Try it

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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell

2018-03-16 Thread Kirk Wolf

David and Jerry -

Curious, but  have you guys tried the REST Api for z/OS Jobs?
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.izua700/IZUHPINFO_API_RESTJOBS.htm


This is what CICS explorer uses for jobs.


Kirk Wolf
Dovetailed Technologies
http://dovetail.com

PS> Co:Z SFTP also has complete JES support (using SSI 80; JES spool
dataset browse).  wouldn't be too hard to roll your own client using your
favorite language and ssh/sftp library.   A fancy UI could start displaying
spool files as they stream to make it snappier, although it would still
probably be tough to quite match the performance of SDSF just because how
low level it is.



On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 8:33 AM, David Crayford  wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> I've found that the SDSF REXX API works well in USS and have written
> several scripts to do useful stuff like bounce web server started tasks. We
> use this from Atlassians Bamboo CI tooling to deploy web applications to
> z/OS triggered from git merges in Bitbucket. Rockets git port has been a
> game changer for us! If there was a curses library for REXX it would be
> possible to write something similar to SDSF for the shell. There is also
> the oeconsol command to execute MVS commands from the shell which is really
> cool.
>
> Like you I prefer to work in z/OS UNIX with all the  code in the file
> system. It's so much better than using data sets. We don't have Linux on Z
> installed but do a lot of work on  x86 Linux servers. You mentioned
> hipersockets which is great for shuttling data around at high speeds for
> JDBC and stuff in production systems but what other advantages does it
> offer for development?
>
>
>
> On 16/03/2018 8:21 PM, Jerry Callen wrote:
>
>> I'm going to be an EXTREME outlier here.
>>
>> Background: I learned computing on OS/360 thru MVS, first using cards,
>> then TSO/ISPF. I jumped ship to Unix in the mid 80s and now I'm back on the
>> mainframe, doing ports of open source software to z/OS (under USS) at
>> Rocket Software.
>>
>> I am logged into both USS (via ssh from PuTTY) and TSO/ISPF (via
>> BlueZone) from a Windows laptop all day long. If I had a decent tool for
>> accessing JES (there's no avoiding SDSF for the time being) from USS, I'd
>> NEVER be in TSO.
>>
>> I use emacs as my development environment. I don't call it an "editor"
>> because it does so much more than edit text. In particular, the "shell
>> buffer" feature is indispensible; think of TSO session manager, but on
>> insane steroids. The USS port of emacs is ancient and creaky (though I
>> dearly hope we can remedy that within the next year), and I will grant that
>> emacs has a very stiff learning curve, but once you know it, it's
>> unbelievably productive.
>>
>> For source control, I use the Rocket port of git. Essentially all of our
>> mainframe development is moving from other source control systems (SCLM,
>> cvs, svn) to git; there are good open source tools for converting from cvs
>> and svn that preserve all the history and branches.
>>
>> For builds, I use whatever the open source project I'm currently working
>> on uses, which is generally some variation on 
>> automake/autoconf/configure/make.
>> The automake/autoconf situation on z/OS isn't yet what it wants to be. For
>> my own projects, I just use raw make. I often create make files that work
>> on both USS and Linux on Z (my go-to Unix when I need to use a tool not yet
>> on USS).
>>
>> In short: I treat z/OS as a Unix box. Nearly all of the compilers (COBOL,
>> PL/I, C/C++, plus the assembler and binder) can be used from USS, on Unix
>> files (no need to move source, maclibs, include files, etc. into a PDS).
>> IBM has provided very good, albeit complex and tricky to use well,
>> ASCII/EBCDIC "bimodal" encoding support to ease the encoding problem. IBM
>> is actively porting newer languages (like JavaScript in node.js) to z/OS.
>>
>> I can run TSO commands from the shell prompt (using, of course, the
>> "tsocmd" command...) when I need to. I keep building tools to help insulate
>> me from TSO and batch (like my SMP query interface at
>> https://github.com/zorts/smpapi), and of course Rocket continues to
>> release new and updated tools for free (though our bandwidth is
>> limited...). The big remaining hole is JES queue access. I can, of course,
>> submit jobs from USS, but getting the output in a nice, consumable manner
>> remains a challenge; hence, my TSO session.
>>
>> We have a cadre of younger developers who follow a similar path, though
>> often using vim instead of emacs, and im some cases Windows-based editors
>> (Eclipse, Webstorm, SlickEdit, etc.) and FTP.
>>
>> Bear in mind that my first "real" editor was ISPF, which I used for
>> years. Even with that history, I can't imagine using it for any serious
>> editing at this point.
>>
>> Slight diversion: Linux on Z is a VERY nice platform. I have rarely
>> encountered any problems porting x86 Unix code to Linux on Z, and usually

Re: AW: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell


On 16/03/2018 5:16 PM, Itschak Mugzach wrote:

The purpose of RDZ was to save expensive  TSO cycles and overhead.


That's interesting! RDz spawns a UNIX process for each connection and 
the server is written in Java which makes extensive JNI calls. I would 
suggest that RDz is significantly more expensive WRT CPU cycles than ISPF.



It look like that the problem the op looks for is end user experience.
As per rdz, most clients are not aware that every dataset/table they view is 
saved in their workspace directory. Btw was even more danger as it allows the 
end user to connect to any ip and gain other user authority.


ITschak
נשלח מה-iPad שלי

‫ב-16 במרץ 2018, בשעה 10:13, ‏‏Peter Hunkeler ‏ כתב/ה:‬


 (or is it "Rational Developer"? - what about the irrational

developers, what do they use? :-})


It is now more for the latter: IBM has rebranded RDz to IDz


--
Peter Hunkeler



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Re: z/OS "interactive computing" - AKA TSO/ISPF or UNIX shell