Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Thank you to all that replied. I guess I was wrong and it can be done. Bu t if done, it is done poorly. I'll do some reseach on Bochs(?) and report to my management with what yo u said and what I found out. thanks Mace
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
You're welcome, Mace. Information on Bochs can be found here: http://bochs.sourceforge.net/ Let us know what your research reveals and how your management reacts. DJ =?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Macioce?= wrote: Thank you to all that replied. I guess I was wrong and it can be done. But if done, it is done poorly. I'll do some reseach on Bochs(?) and report to my management with what you said and what I found out. thanks Mace
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
On 8/10/06, Adam Thornton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the answer, in any practical terms, is no, you can't do that. Unless the new POO has a Start Intel Execution instruction ;-p
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Wrong is not a fair description. I can put my love spuds in the open mouth of a lion and hit him on the head. If you said I couldn't you'd be wrong, but it makes about as much sense as trying to run x86 apps on a zSeries. -Original Message- Thank you to all that replied. I guess I was wrong and it can be done. Bu t if done, it is done poorly. I'll do some reseach on Bochs(?) and report to my management with what yo u said and what I found out.
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
LOVE SPUDShahahahahaha My youngest son(when playing ball and get hit) calls them Mcnuggets I take it as putting a Yugo engine in a Lambo. It will make the car run but not well. Thanks Mace -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neale Ferguson Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:49 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: A question about z/VM and windoze Wrong is not a fair description. I can put my love spuds in the open mouth of a lion and hit him on the head. If you said I couldn't you'd be wrong, but it makes about as much sense as trying to run x86 apps on a zSeries. -Original Message- Thank you to all that replied. I guess I was wrong and it can be done. Bu t if done, it is done poorly. I'll do some reseach on Bochs(?) and report to my management with what yo u said and what I found out. - *** * The information transmitted is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you have received this email in error please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. *** *
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
On Aug 10, 2006, at 6:56 AM, Macioce, Larry wrote: I take it as putting a Yugo engine in a Lambo. It will make the car run but not well. More like putting a moped engine in a locomotive, really. Adam
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
There is an Intel architecture available that will allow this, but you really don't want to go that route. You'll be spending expensive CPU time doing emulation. Which apps are they talking about? =?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Macioce?= wrote: OK .. First. let me preface this with this is the smartest bunch I know o n the subject of VM. AND no I didn't take a class on how to kiss up. Second.. I've looked into this once before and was told NO WAY..BUT I've been given the task of finding out if windows and windows apps can run on the z/890 and z/VM. I've told the uppers that windows type apps ca n run under Linux BUT no pure windows and/or windows apps. I tried to explain the machine architecture wouldn't allow windows to execute. BUT I was told that other research has been done and I was wrong. The argument I got was well it runs on apple computers now to which I replied” the c ode had to be developed to do so”. The argument of mine didn't carry water so I'm asking the experts on this board, JUST incase I'm wrong or I've misse d an announcement from IBM and BILLY I thought I'd come here and ask. thanks Mace -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2007 - Green Bay, WI - May 18-22, 2007
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Argh! I meant 'Intel architecture emulator'. You still don't want do this... Rich Smrcina wrote: There is an Intel architecture available that will allow this, but you really don't want to go that route. You'll be spending expensive CPU time doing emulation. Which apps are they talking about? -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 rich.smrcina at vmassist.com Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2007 - Green Bay, WI - May 18-22, 2007
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Yes, I also recall something along those lines - I think it involved running z/Linux, a hardware emulator like Bochs or VM:Ware, then Windows - with of course terrible performance running so many layers away from the real hardware. Is it technically possible, probably. Is it something you want to do in a production shop? Definitely not. Michael Coffin, President MC Consulting Company, Inc. 57 Tamarack Drive Stoughton, Massachusetts 02072 Voice: (781) 344-9837FAX: (781) 344-7683 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mccci.com We employ aggressive SPAM filters. If you cannot reply or send email to mccci.com go to www.mccci.com/spamblockremove.php Click here to help fight the war on Spam! Report an unsolicited commercial email or a spamming organization. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 11:35 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: A question about z/VM and windoze NO. Windows runs only on Intel architecture. zSeries is nothing like Intel. That is, the hardware instructions are different. __Some__ Windows applications can run on Linux/Intel using software such as WINE, Crossover Office, or WIN4Lin. These applications have a special loader which loads the Windows .exe file into memory. They then supply software so that what would go to a Windows DLL function instead goes to their code. Their code then does the equivalent processing under Linux. But it is still running x86 hardware instructions. Having said that, there is a x86 emulator called Bochs which can run on a zSeries. From what I understand somebody actually did this. It ended up with something that ran like a 10Mhz Intel CPU. I.e. it was slower than molasses in winter and ran the zSeries CPU up to 100% doing it. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and its content is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message and are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this transmission, or taking any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Hi, Mace. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Larry_Macioce?= wrote: OK .. First. let me preface this with this is the smartest bunch I know on the subject of VM. AND no I didn't take a class on how to kiss up. Second.. I've looked into this once before and was told NO WAY..BUT I've been given the task of finding out if windows and windows apps can run on the z/890 and z/VM. I've told the uppers that windows type apps can run under Linux BUT no pure windows and/or windows apps. I tried to explain the machine architecture wouldn't allow windows to execute. BUT I was told that other research has been done and I was wrong. The argument I got was well it runs on apple computers now to which I replied” the code had to be developed to do so”. The argument of mine didn't carry water so I'm asking the experts on this board, JUST incase I'm wrong or I've missed an announcement from IBM and BILLY I thought I'd come here and ask. hum, I think I see your problem here, it's your management:-) What they may be thinking about when they state that Windows apps can run on mainframes is the stuff that Platform Solutions ( http://www.platform-solutions.com/) is putting out about their server, being Intel-based, can run Windows, Linux and z/OS at the same time. z/VM is not included in the mix because they can't get their SIE emulation to work the way it should (tricky stuff, that mainframe virtualization...:-) You certainly can run the Linux based Intel emulator BOCH (sp?) on a mainframe Linux image and then install and run windows on top of that...Adam Thornton of Sine Nomine Assoc. did just such a thing when his supply of cough syrup ran low one winter's night. However, as others have noted, the performance was less than stellar The reason Windows runs on Apple Computers now is because, as I understand the situation, Apple switched from using Power chips to Intel chips in their boxes. Hope this is of some help. Have a good one. DJ thanks Mace
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Each virtual machine running a Intel processor emulator and a copy of Windows consumes approximately 180-220 zSeries MIPS to emulate a 200-210 Mhz Pentium II-class CPU idling at the desktop. No applications, just desktop. More fun: as a last hurrah for our faithful MP3000-H70, I fired that guest up and brought up WinNT under Bochs. It took 28 *minutes* to open (not do anything, just open) Notepad. Both MP3000 processors were pegged at 100% while doing this -- *nothing* else was running. I can conclusively state that Windows is not supportable in that environment for anything real. -- db PS -- RIP SNAVM5. Good night, sweet prince.
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
Hello Dave Jones wrote: The reason Windows runs on Apple Computers now is because, as I understand the situation, Apple switched from using Power chips to Intel chips in their boxes. yes this was announced I believe within the last two days. Apple is now INTEL based. (meant to overshadow the SEC probe into problems with Options for exec's) Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ext. 40441
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
They already have seen them. They monitor all e-mail. Regards, Richard Schuh -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Mike Walter Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 10:56 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: A question about z/VM and windoze The reason Windows runs on Apple Computers now is because, as I understand the situation, Apple switched from using Power chips to Intel chips in their boxes. So... you're saying that if IBM switched the z Series processors from blue chips to Intel chips we could run Windows on z Series? Perish the thought! And don't let senior management types even see these words!%-)~ Mike Walter Hewitt Associates Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Hewitt Associates.
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
On Aug 9, 2006, at 8:34 AM, McKown, John wrote: Having said that, there is a x86 emulator called Bochs which can run on a zSeries. From what I understand somebody actually did this. It ended up with something that ran like a 10Mhz Intel CPU. I.e. it was slower than molasses in winter and ran the zSeries CPU up to 100% doing it. 100kHz would be more accurate. So the answer, in any practical terms, is no, you can't do that. Adam
Re: A question about z/VM and windoze
On Aug 9, 2006, at 9:44 AM, David Boyes wrote: It is *technically* possible to run unmodified Windows applications on zSeries (photos on request). It is *prohibitively* resource- intensive to do so, and provides no consolidation or licensing benefits. Each virtual machine running a Intel processor emulator and a copy of Windows consumes approximately 180-220 zSeries MIPS to emulate a 200-210 Mhz Pentium II-class CPU idling at the desktop. No applications, just desktop. That obviously won't scale. The argument I got was well it runs on apple computers now No, you were mostly right. We did it here at SNA as a proof of concept, but there is no -- that's zero, nada, nyet, nein, it'll stop hurting when you stop doing that -- basis for recommending such a thing for production use. Agreed. However, Dave Jones may have been on to something, when he mentioned Platform Solutions: I don't know if Fundamental Software would have a cow if you did this, but I see no reason why a beefy multi-way SMP intel box running Flex/ES shouldn't give you, say, 20 or 30 MIPS of z/VM workload at the same time it's got a couple things running on the Linux side of things (because Flex *can* run z/VM just fine; we're using it now-- it's slower than the H70 was, but it's not awful by any means), and a couple more things running on a Windows instance inside a VMware container. This isn't what your management means, of course, but you might get low-end-of-adequate performance out of each environment, with enough memory and also quite a bit of CPU horsepower (memory is a bigger issue, though). Adam
