Re: Virtualized Desktop
Ward, Mike S wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. We recently did a POC to see if we could replace about 1000 Windows PC with thin clients linked to VMware running on HP blades and a HP SAN storage. The POC worked well with 10 users. We are probably going to implement it in the next fiscal year. I don't have the costs with me now but the 10 HP blades that we will need cost more than a z10. -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: Virtualized Desktop
-Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Stephen Frazier Sent: 29 May 2009 21:25 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop Ward, Mike S wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time Not sure about what APL did for VM but I remember being chucked off MTS for having the largest VM size. It was a weekend and I thought the system would quiet but it was paging to disk that day, and my 10 line program killed the system... .. (it was my undergraduate project and did resource leveling on a Gant chart using heuristic methods..) was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. We recently did a POC to see if we could replace about 1000 Windows PC with thin clients linked to VMware running on HP blades and a HP SAN storage. The POC worked well with 10 users. We are probably going to implement it in the next fiscal year. I don't have the costs with me now but the 10 HP blades that we will need cost more than a z10. Building PC's capable of running many virtual machines can be expensive, but I would have thought fewer bigger machines would be better value for money. In any case when you consider the number of Network Cards and SAN HBA cards you will need those alone probably come close to small mainframe... On the other hand the support costs of maintaining one image rather than 1000 PCs will probably save you money in the first few days... -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: Virtualized Desktop
(In the following comments, I use the term thin client in lose terms, it can either be a true thin client or a pc that boots from the network, PXE, TFTP and all that stuff). I'm a little confused by this virtualized desktop thread. To me, it sounds like LTSP or the pregen'd system K12LTSP. I've worked more with the K12LTSP flavor, because it's pregen'd, quick and easy and I wanted to see what thin client was all about. (I did this about 4 years ago). IIRC, the thin client, with regards to the mouse, could be run one of two ways, either 1) the mouse traffic goes across the network, which does generate a lot of traffic. I watched my network switch while moving the mouse. The port light/led really did a lot of blinking when I moved the mouse or 2) the kernel and a few other pieces of software get down loaded to the thin client, thus avoiding all of the mouse network traffic. Yeah, downloading the kernel, etc, takes a few extra seconds, but no mouse network traffic. The other thing that comes to mind with K12LTSP is that you can keep some files on the server, swap space for example and maybe /tmp. Swap space could be almost as bad as the mouse if a lot of swapping is going on. I've always wanted to try LTSP on zLinux, just never had the time. It would seem to me that downloading the kernel, et al, would be the thing to do. Or am I missing the mark (not Post g) here about the topic/thread? Steve -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Ward, Mike S Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:44 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad?
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Since SLED is an Enterprise Desktop, does that mean you would have to have one SLED for every user under VM? My approach would be indeed to run just one desktop per virtual machine, instead of what Matthew suggested with all desktops on a few Linux virtual machines. My preference would be the simplifier security issues and the ability to ensure that resources can be granted to the virtual desktop that is supposed to use them, and the ability to charge for consumed resources. Something to think about is whether the virtual machine needs to be there when the user is not. One of my pet projects was to speed up Linux boot process so that we could start the virtual machine when the first TCP/IP packet arrives (and get it done within the time that TCP/IP allows you). I even worked with a customer who considered to migrate unused virtual machines to tape and restore them when needed (and accept that it may keep the developer waiting for a few minutes). Clearly you want something to share the program code so that you can do software management in a central manner and not upgrade each virtual server separately. That requires you separate data from (centrally managed) code and server configuration. When you review the thread about stateless Linux on the list yesterday, it appears an attractive approach to have a small supply of luke warm Linux servers ready to get personalized when the user attempts to connect to the desktop. It would require their data and configuration to reside on a separate file server. I would be tempted to hibernate to disk rather than RAM (and expect z/VM paging to restore it) but either approach might work. Rob -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Thanks to all who have replied. All, do linux users use a mouse. I would think that mouse tracking would be a nightmare in the VM environment. I remember way back when we used to ask users monitoring jobs in OS/VS1 to not hit the enter key constantly. It's ok for a few, but when you have 5,000 connected to an opsys running under VM, at least the old releases it became a problem. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Rob van der Heij Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:51 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Since SLED is an Enterprise Desktop, does that mean you would have to have one SLED for every user under VM? My approach would be indeed to run just one desktop per virtual machine, instead of what Matthew suggested with all desktops on a few Linux virtual machines. My preference would be the simplifier security issues and the ability to ensure that resources can be granted to the virtual desktop that is supposed to use them, and the ability to charge for consumed resources. Something to think about is whether the virtual machine needs to be there when the user is not. One of my pet projects was to speed up Linux boot process so that we could start the virtual machine when the first TCP/IP packet arrives (and get it done within the time that TCP/IP allows you). I even worked with a customer who considered to migrate unused virtual machines to tape and restore them when needed (and accept that it may keep the developer waiting for a few minutes). Clearly you want something to share the program code so that you can do software management in a central manner and not upgrade each virtual server separately. That requires you separate data from (centrally managed) code and server configuration. When you review the thread about stateless Linux on the list yesterday, it appears an attractive approach to have a small supply of luke warm Linux servers ready to get personalized when the user attempts to connect to the desktop. It would require their data and configuration to reside on a separate file server. I would be tempted to hibernate to disk rather than RAM (and expect z/VM paging to restore it) but either approach might work. Rob -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/ == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On 5/14/2009 at 9:50 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: All, do linux users use a mouse. I would think that mouse tracking would be a nightmare in the VM environment. Bear, woods. It's not just z/VM, it's also network latency. When I test the X apps I build as part of Slack/390, it takes a couple of minutes just to get the initial window to show up on my system at home. And that distance is only from Michigan to New York. When I do similar things for work, that traffic goes to Germany and back. Not pretty. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Post Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:36 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop On 5/14/2009 at 9:50 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: All, do linux users use a mouse. I would think that mouse tracking would be a nightmare in the VM environment. Bear, woods. It's not just z/VM, it's also network latency. When I test the X apps I build as part of Slack/390, it takes a couple of minutes just to get the initial window to show up on my system at home. And that distance is only from Michigan to New York. When I do similar things for work, that traffic goes to Germany and back. Not pretty. Mark Post == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
@Mike Mouse tracking can be handled by an X-Windows proxy such as lbx (low bandwidth X). @Rob What would you estimate the cpu/memory requirements for 1000 desktop users? Matthew On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 11:50 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Thanks to all who have replied. All, do linux users use a mouse. I would think that mouse tracking would be a nightmare in the VM environment. I remember way back when we used to ask users monitoring jobs in OS/VS1 to not hit the enter key constantly. It's ok for a few, but when you have 5,000 connected to an opsys running under VM, at least the old releases it became a problem. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Rob van der Heij Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:51 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Since SLED is an Enterprise Desktop, does that mean you would have to have one SLED for every user under VM? My approach would be indeed to run just one desktop per virtual machine, instead of what Matthew suggested with all desktops on a few Linux virtual machines. My preference would be the simplifier security issues and the ability to ensure that resources can be granted to the virtual desktop that is supposed to use them, and the ability to charge for consumed resources. Something to think about is whether the virtual machine needs to be there when the user is not. One of my pet projects was to speed up Linux boot process so that we could start the virtual machine when the first TCP/IP packet arrives (and get it done within the time that TCP/IP allows you). I even worked with a customer who considered to migrate unused virtual machines to tape and restore them when needed (and accept that it may keep the developer waiting for a few minutes). Clearly you want something to share the program code so that you can do software management in a central manner and not upgrade each virtual server separately. That requires you separate data from (centrally managed) code and server configuration. When you review the thread about stateless Linux on the list yesterday, it appears an attractive approach to have a small supply of luke warm Linux servers ready to get personalized when the user attempts to connect to the desktop. It would require their data and configuration to reside on a separate file server. I would be tempted to hibernate to disk rather than RAM (and expect z/VM paging to restore it) but either approach might work. Rob -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/ == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
it also depends on network speed not just latency when I'm on our core network vs. VPN the difference is considerable there's also setting up ssh tunneling with compression. that helps also this problem is inherent in any remote X work you do. so applies to zSeries as well as x86. the biggest issue really on zSeries is since we use a virtual frame buffer (ie. CPU driven graphics) you take a hit on CPU to generate all those pretty pictures. William 'Doug' Carroll Mainframe Systems Eng Sr I Global Technology Infrastructure ECS Core Services z/Software Group / Emerging Technologies RedHat Certified Engineer: 805008304430937 Office: (614) 213.4954Pager: (877) 328.2157 Cell: (614) 558.5250 SMS: (614) 558.5250 Fax: (614) 244.9897Home Fax: (866) 543-9156 Inter-office mail code: OH1-1291 http://www.jpmchase.com -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Ward, Mike S Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 1:44 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Post Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 12:36 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop On 5/14/2009 at 9:50 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: All, do linux users use a mouse. I would think that mouse tracking would be a nightmare in the VM environment. Bear, woods. It's not just z/VM, it's also network latency. When I test the X apps I build as part of Slack/390, it takes a couple of minutes just to get the initial window to show up on my system at home. And that distance is only from Michigan to New York. When I do similar things for work, that traffic goes to Germany and back. Not pretty. Mark Post == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. This communication is for informational purposes only. It is not intended as an offer or solicitation for the purchase or sale of any financial instrument or as an official confirmation of any transaction. All market prices, data and other information are not warranted as to completeness or accuracy and are subject to change without notice. Any comments or statements made herein do not necessarily reflect those of JPMorgan Chase Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates. This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you. Please refer to http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures for disclosures relating to European legal entities.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On 5/14/2009 at 1:44 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad? You can use a mouse. If you're using one of the Linux desktop environments, you almost have to use one. Performance can range from very good to very bad, depending on what kind of hardware and network resources you have. At BrainShare 2008, IBM had their brand new z10 EC on the show floor. It was on the same physical network segment as some of our Intel/AMD demo systems. I could run a GNOME or KDE desktop on the z10 and the performance difference was hardly noticeable. But, that was a nearly idle z10 EC on the same physical network segment. It's not something I would necessarily recommend for a production environment, since it can be quite expensive in terms of hardware and network resources. Every situation is different. You might be able to build a business case for it, or you might not. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:58 PM, Matthew Donald matthew.b.don...@gmail.com wrote: What would you estimate the cpu/memory requirements for 1000 desktop users? I have never measured. An important factor would be what's on the user side. When you have a proper X-server there then a lot is done on the workstation. But when you plan to do VNC then the X-server needs to hold the full bit image and do computations there. When we started 10 years ago with Linux on z/VM, running a graphical desktop was a pretty dumb idea on S/390. Hey, many told us that running Linux on the mainframe was a stupid idea as well... But I still have the pictures of Xnest in VNC. If one of our customers had serious ideas in this direction then I'd certainly be interested to help measuring things for such an estimate. My list of fun projects for my spare time is pretty heavy already. Rob -- Rob van der Heij Velocity Software http://www.velocitysoftware.com/
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Guys, You have a idea if the LTSP not fall in this project? Is a good choice. http://packages.debian.org/search?suite=lennyarch=s390searchon=nameskeywords=ltsp []' Fernando 2009/5/14 Mark Post mp...@novell.com On 5/14/2009 at 1:44 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad? You can use a mouse. If you're using one of the Linux desktop environments, you almost have to use one. Performance can range from very good to very bad, depending on what kind of hardware and network resources you have. At BrainShare 2008, IBM had their brand new z10 EC on the show floor. It was on the same physical network segment as some of our Intel/AMD demo systems. I could run a GNOME or KDE desktop on the z10 and the performance difference was hardly noticeable. But, that was a nearly idle z10 EC on the same physical network segment. It's not something I would necessarily recommend for a production environment, since it can be quite expensive in terms of hardware and network resources. Every situation is different. You might be able to build a business case for it, or you might not. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
LTSP is one of many X server options. There is also Cygwin/XFree86. Both are open source options. There are many commercial X server packages from Hummingbird, Labtam and others X servers would have much lower performance impact on zLinux since the drawing requests are shipped across the network, rather than bitmaps. Personally, I find the idea of running user desktops on zLinux facinating. In the 80's and 90's I was a sysadmin for a large AIX system which had several hundred users. BillG, Sun and Linux managed to persuade the world that one desktop == one user, and the idea of multi-user unix systems dropped out of fashion. It's nice to see the idea comming back. Matthew On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 4:17 AM, Fernando Gieseler fgiese...@gmail.comwrote: Guys, You have a idea if the LTSP not fall in this project? Is a good choice. http://packages.debian.org/search?suite=lennyarch=s390searchon=nameskeywords=ltsp []' Fernando 2009/5/14 Mark Post mp...@novell.com On 5/14/2009 at 1:44 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Are you saying that you can't use a mouse on linux under VM? Or you can but the performance is bad? You can use a mouse. If you're using one of the Linux desktop environments, you almost have to use one. Performance can range from very good to very bad, depending on what kind of hardware and network resources you have. At BrainShare 2008, IBM had their brand new z10 EC on the show floor. It was on the same physical network segment as some of our Intel/AMD demo systems. I could run a GNOME or KDE desktop on the z10 and the performance difference was hardly noticeable. But, that was a nearly idle z10 EC on the same physical network segment. It's not something I would necessarily recommend for a production environment, since it can be quite expensive in terms of hardware and network resources. Every situation is different. You might be able to build a business case for it, or you might not. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:20 AM, Matthew Donald matthew.b.don...@gmail.com wrote: LTSP is one of many X server options. There is also Cygwin/XFree86. Both are open source options. There are many commercial X server packages from Hummingbird, Labtam and others Actually, it's both. It's also the server that runs the services to boot the diskless workstations (dhcp, tftp, nfs) and also runs the desktop for the clients. The idea is that you can use cheap old PCs as your X-server that way. I personally I like the idea to have a fanless (!) single board computer that attaches to the standard VESA mounting screws of your TFT screen. Rob
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Firstly, you need to know the expected environment before you can work out anything. Lets assume that you want to provide Firefox for browsing, Lotus Notes for email, Symphony for office and x3270 for mainframe access. All of these run under Linux and, in addition, Notes and Symphony are Eclipse-based which means JVM's. What I *wouldn't* do is give each user a separate Linux guest. I'd probably look at around 4 Linux guests. These guest would have all 1000 users logged onto them. One guest would provide the desktop. That is, every user would log onto a single guest using X-Windows and maybe Gnome (but I'd look at Enlightenment as it has a lower memory footprint). The desktop would have icons for Notes, Symphony etc. Clicking an icon would run a remote app on one of the other guests. Any user running Firefox or x3270 would run the app on this guest. A second guest would run Notes. Every time a user clicked the Notes icon, it would start it would start the Notes app on the second guest. The third and fourth guests would have Symphony workload spread between them. When a user clicked the Symphony icon, half would run the app on the third guest and half on the fourth guest. Essentially, the model is to have the basic desktop and the non-java apps on one guest and the java workload spread over the other three guests. I know a config along these lines would work, since the State of Florida did something like this in the late-90's. They were using four 8-way Intel P3 boxes running Linux with Netscape, Wordperfect and Quattro. I'm pretty sure they were supporting more than 1000 users. As to resources, I don't know of any benchmarks, so the following is based on my experience with z/VM +z/Linux + Websphere. My gut feel is that you could probably run this sort of workload with 4 IFL's and somewhere between 96G and 128G, depending on the number of simultaneous users. I may be over-estimating the CPU workload. Most of the memory requirement would be for JVM's. I'd allow somewhere between 128M and 256M per JVM. So long as the GC was running no more frequently than every 8 seconds or so and each GC run was freeing at least 30% of the heap on each run then the sizing would be adequate. Another problem you are likely to hit is in networking. The X-Windows protocol has outbound connections from the Linux guest to the terminal. I don't know about your environment, but many site use VPN's internally with each group being restricted to a single VPN sandbox. The problem is that many VPN clients (such as Aventail) only allow connections from the terminal to the server, and not the other way around. Hope this gives you food for thought Matthew Donald On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. Thanks. == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Wow it does give me food for thought. Sounds like you're well versed in these types of environments. Another question if you don't mind. In this environment would SUSE linux work? And would they be able to use Ximian and Evolution to connect to an exchange server for email/calendar and those type of office functions? From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Donald Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:07 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop Firstly, you need to know the expected environment before you can work out anything. Lets assume that you want to provide Firefox for browsing, Lotus Notes for email, Symphony for office and x3270 for mainframe access. All of these run under Linux and, in addition, Notes and Symphony are Eclipse-based which means JVM's. What I wouldn't do is give each user a separate Linux guest. I'd probably look at around 4 Linux guests. These guest would have all 1000 users logged onto them. One guest would provide the desktop. That is, every user would log onto a single guest using X-Windows and maybe Gnome (but I'd look at Enlightenment as it has a lower memory footprint). The desktop would have icons for Notes, Symphony etc. Clicking an icon would run a remote app on one of the other guests. Any user running Firefox or x3270 would run the app on this guest. A second guest would run Notes. Every time a user clicked the Notes icon, it would start it would start the Notes app on the second guest. The third and fourth guests would have Symphony workload spread between them. When a user clicked the Symphony icon, half would run the app on the third guest and half on the fourth guest. Essentially, the model is to have the basic desktop and the non-java apps on one guest and the java workload spread over the other three guests. I know a config along these lines would work, since the State of Florida did something like this in the late-90's. They were using four 8-way Intel P3 boxes running Linux with Netscape, Wordperfect and Quattro. I'm pretty sure they were supporting more than 1000 users. As to resources, I don't know of any benchmarks, so the following is based on my experience with z/VM +z/Linux + Websphere. My gut feel is that you could probably run this sort of workload with 4 IFL's and somewhere between 96G and 128G, depending on the number of simultaneous users. I may be over-estimating the CPU workload. Most of the memory requirement would be for JVM's. I'd allow somewhere between 128M and 256M per JVM. So long as the GC was running no more frequently than every 8 seconds or so and each GC run was freeing at least 30% of the heap on each run then the sizing would be adequate. Another problem you are likely to hit is in networking. The X-Windows protocol has outbound connections from the Linux guest to the terminal. I don't know about your environment, but many site use VPN's internally with each group being restricted to a single VPN sandbox. The problem is that many VPN clients (such as Aventail) only allow connections from the terminal to the server, and not the other way around. Hope this gives you food for thought Matthew Donald On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. Thanks. == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. == This email and any files
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On 5/13/2009 at 4:13 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: In this environment would SUSE linux work? And would they be able to use Ximian and Evolution to connect to an exchange server for email/calendar and those type of office functions? The Evolution client is only shipped with SLED, which does not have a version for the mainframe. Now, if Mantissa ever gets their z/VOS going, that could change. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Since SLED is an Enterprise Desktop, does that mean you would have to have one SLED for every user under VM? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Post Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:23 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Virtualized Desktop On 5/13/2009 at 4:13 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: In this environment would SUSE linux work? And would they be able to use Ximian and Evolution to connect to an exchange server for email/calendar and those type of office functions? The Evolution client is only shipped with SLED, which does not have a version for the mainframe. Now, if Mantissa ever gets their z/VOS going, that could change. Mark Post == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
On 5/13/2009 at 4:28 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Since SLED is an Enterprise Desktop, does that mean you would have to have one SLED for every user under VM? I doubt anyone has even looked at what that pricing model would be like. If such a thing ever comes into being, I would be loathe to predict how it might turn out, or if it could even be worked out. Given that SLED is currently licensed by machine, multiple people can use one system concurrently, and only pay for one license. Same with SLES, for that matter. Unlike Windows, Linux et. al. were designed to be true multi-user systems, so sharing a single system is Just How it Works. So, there would be precedent for having it licensed either by system image, by processor, or by some other method. Again, until current circumstances begin to approach a shipping product, speculation is cheap and probably wrong. I have to say, though, I think it would be _very_ cool to have someone serving up SLED images from a System z box. Mark Post
Re: Virtualized Desktop
SUSE linux would work fine in this sort of environment, but it would need to have the desktop customised considerably to remove any 'single user' gadgets and the like. As noted above there may be issues getting Evolution on S390x. Also, Evolution and the Ximian desktop are coded in Mono, which give you memory issues similar to Java. Didn't Evolution used to be open source? Did Novell make it closed source when they took over Ximian? If it's open source, then it should be possible to get someone to port Mono (which is open source) and Evolution (which is written in Mono) to S390x. That's the advantage of open source. Matthew On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Wow it does give me food for thought. Sounds like you’re well versed in these types of environments. Another question if you don’t mind. In this environment would SUSE linux work? And would they be able to use Ximian and Evolution to connect to an exchange server for email/calendar and those type of office functions? *From:* The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] *On Behalf Of *Matthew Donald *Sent:* Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:07 PM *To:* IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU *Subject:* Re: Virtualized Desktop Firstly, you need to know the expected environment before you can work out anything. Lets assume that you want to provide Firefox for browsing, Lotus Notes for email, Symphony for office and x3270 for mainframe access. All of these run under Linux and, in addition, Notes and Symphony are Eclipse-based which means JVM's. What I *wouldn't* do is give each user a separate Linux guest. I'd probably look at around 4 Linux guests. These guest would have all 1000 users logged onto them. One guest would provide the desktop. That is, every user would log onto a single guest using X-Windows and maybe Gnome (but I'd look at Enlightenment as it has a lower memory footprint). The desktop would have icons for Notes, Symphony etc. Clicking an icon would run a remote app on one of the other guests. Any user running Firefox or x3270 would run the app on this guest. A second guest would run Notes. Every time a user clicked the Notes icon, it would start it would start the Notes app on the second guest. The third and fourth guests would have Symphony workload spread between them. When a user clicked the Symphony icon, half would run the app on the third guest and half on the fourth guest. Essentially, the model is to have the basic desktop and the non-java apps on one guest and the java workload spread over the other three guests. I know a config along these lines would work, since the State of Florida did something like this in the late-90's. They were using four 8-way Intel P3 boxes running Linux with Netscape, Wordperfect and Quattro. I'm pretty sure they were supporting more than 1000 users. As to resources, I don't know of any benchmarks, so the following is based on my experience with z/VM +z/Linux + Websphere. My gut feel is that you could probably run this sort of workload with 4 IFL's and somewhere between 96G and 128G, depending on the number of simultaneous users. I may be over-estimating the CPU workload. Most of the memory requirement would be for JVM's. I'd allow somewhere between 128M and 256M per JVM. So long as the GC was running no more frequently than every 8 seconds or so and each GC run was freeing at least 30% of the heap on each run then the sizing would be adequate. Another problem you are likely to hit is in networking. The X-Windows protocol has outbound connections from the Linux guest to the terminal. I don't know about your environment, but many site use VPN's internally with each group being restricted to a single VPN sandbox. The problem is that many VPN clients (such as Aventail) only allow connections from the terminal to the server, and not the other way around. Hope this gives you food for thought Matthew Donald On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 7:30 AM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. Thanks
Re: Virtualized Desktop
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 5/13/2009 at 4:13 PM, Ward, Mike S mw...@ssfcu.org wrote: In this environment would SUSE linux work? And would they be able to use Ximian and Evolution to connect to an exchange server for email/calendar and those type of office functions? This guy: http://davelargo.blogspot.com/ is doing essentially what you propose, albeit on distributed X86 servers instead of Z servers. This is for the city of Largo, Florida. Apparently he has hundreds of simultaneous online users, to which he and his coworkers provide at least evolution, openoffice, and firefox. All the users run thin clients. - -- Pat -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoLT/oACgkQNObCqA8uBsxhRwCfcNEa0kR3qdpNaeYOxu//8s4k 2AYAoIzqTMgadp6DJfGxlcNFNdrKhbsf =dswT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Virtualized Desktop
Mono is already ported (thanks to the ever-brilliant Neale Ferguson). Didn't Evolution used to be open source? Did Novell make it closed source when they took over Ximian? If it's open source, then it should be possible to get someone to port Mono (which is open source) and Evolution (which is written in Mono) to S390x. That's the advantage of open source.
Virtualized Desktop
Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. Thanks. == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Virtualized Desktop
It really depends, Mike. What o/s are these 1000 users going to be running in the virtual machines, and what applications? If it's CMS supporting office automation type stuff, then you won't need a lot of DASD, MIPS, etc. If it's Linux running, say, SAP, then you'll need a lot of everything. Ward, Mike S wrote: Hello, all. I have a question. It seems that we are looking into a virtualized desktop environment (Single Image) on our distributed side. I kind of laugh at this because that's where we came from with VM and an OS running under VM (Green Screen) long ago and now it's making full circle. In VM how do you determine the amount of hardware MIPS, Disk, Etc... for let's say 1000 users? Is there any kind of formula to go by? I know in the distributed environment, it will probably take a lot of disk space, and as far as performance I don't think it would be as snappy as a real VM system. I used to work at a shop where we had 2500 users and a few with APL, that's right APL. Anyone that's been around knows what APL programmers did for VM. And in that shop response time was good even under MVS/CICS under VM. Anyway any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. Thanks. == This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
