Re: [IceHorses] More FIZO breeding rules musings
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:19:30 -0400, you wrote: >And why should the neck, withers and shoulders get 10%, compared to a grand >total of 6% for legs and back? This is why I no longer care to travel to >"see for myself"...there's just too much I can see wrong by reading the >rules. You know, I completely agree with you on the mad weighting of breeding scores. But - and here's where we disagree (thank goodness, what is life coming too?? ; )) Complaining about the way breeding evaluations work here on this list is not going to change things in the wider Icelandic world - simply because the people who *can* change things are not even aware we're here, and certainly don't see a problem themselves. Most of them don't bother with this sort of list in the first place and certainly won't trawl through flaxseed/Curly Ray/Donny's Underpants etc etc to read the bits that might interest them. So, while most of us do agree something needs to be done, we are not really actively doing anything! So what can we do? We need to get these opinions out into the wider Icelandic world - the Quarterly and any other Icelandic horse publications, the Breeding leaders in FEIF (their email addresses are all on the FEIF website), Eidfaxi, other lists (particularly some of the ones in Europe, like the German or Swedish ones if anyone here is willing to take the discussion there in German and Swedish), the Board of FEIF (again, email addresses on the website) and so on. If we can get people to actually really LOOK at the FIZO and the inherent contradictions in it (LOVE the sloping shoulder versus high action argument!) rather than blindly accepting it, then we might actually get some positive change happening. Who's up for it?? Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 20:18:27 -0500, you wrote: >i myself frequently hold a "come to jesus" meeting with stonewall. As opposed to a "Go to Jesus" meeting which involves a shotgun too? ; ) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 19:04:50 -0500, you wrote: >The way it's evaluated the breed obviously values the long flowy mane >and tail with heavy forelock moreso than the puffy bushy mane and tail >why?? Appearance only? A horse with lots of mane and tail and feather is easier to sell. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] OT Reiki for Christians
Renee...interesting site. Thanks for sharing it. Reiki is a light...energy that the universe puts out for the good of all living things. I am a Reiki Level 2 practitioner...hoping to be a Master in 2009. Bright Blessings, Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
>>> If that is true you have found a very misjudged horse. Would you care to >>> name the animal. Perhaps even privately so I can end my curiosity? No. I'm not out to bash a particular horse - doing that could conceivably ruin his quality of life. The sad thing is that I don't think he's an isolated case anyway. There aren't so many evaluated stallions in North America. Tolt News produced a stallion CD a couple of years ago, and I was quite surprised to see that many of the leg scores were 7's and 7.5's, with not many 8's - even among the highest rated stallions. 7's and 7.5's are average and below average, and to me, that's scary. Compared to legs, manes, tales, heads and necks are pretty meaningless to me. Those horses still managed to get high overall scores, even with just average or below leg scores. These scores are published in the USIHC Quarterly, Tolt News, etc., and they are recorded in World Fengur, so they aren't secrets. Judy has commented before about how few stallion ads show the horses from good conformational analysis angles. If I were looking to use someone else's stallion, I'd be looking at his legs from all angles. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > the ears small and refined, > the expression one > of noble beauty and deep intelligence, the nose > aquiline and showing > of perfect pre-roman breeding, the nostrils > delicately flared, the > neck swanlike and oozing refined grace. I showed that pic to my husband and told him that's what happens to hubby's who don't behave! He said he'd be sure not to groom our donkey in his underwear! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
> I was not trying to say that sickle hock is a good condition but that I have > seen sickle hocked horses that were not cow hocked. The cow hocked horse in > my experience appears sickle hocked if viewed from the side only. > > > Phil > Who feels this thread has run its useful life cycle for now. well I for one phil want to congratulate robyn on having a husband who can not only spell but formulate sentence structure. I am amazed./ Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Karen Thomas >>> This stallion you refer to do you know what mark it got for legs (joints)? >There are two scores for legs. I believe he had a 7.5 for one, and an 8 >for the other. I >know both scores were at least 7.5/average. What shocked me was that his >legs reminded me >of Big Mac's - the horse that the vet analyzed for me as faulty about 18-19 >years before I .saw that stallion. I knew from the first that Mac had less-than-desirable >legs, and I >think we were lucky that we didn't use him and longer or harder than we >did. If that is true you have found a very misjudged horse. Would you care to name the animal. Perhaps even privately so I can end my curiosity? Phil
Re: [IceHorses] trausti in the herd
>>> i think you oughta send that pci of him with the fly mask on in for feif >>> evaluation showing a perfect head and what was that word? Spectacular >>> noble gaze or what was it... Tivar definitely has a "fine head". ;) Karen Thomas, NC >
Re: [IceHorses] OT Reiki for Christians
well i aint mentioning any names, but someone on the list sent money to someone else on the list as a donation, and the person sent her a reiki in return for her dog, and her dog promptly died so frankly i am a little leery of reiki sent via emails. for money. Any time you have to pay for something that supposedly comes from god i dont think its always a good thing! now I will crawl back into my lair with my eyes wheeling and spinning and glowing in my head Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Karen Thomas >>> Sickle hocked by itself okay. >Really? I believe that both are considered faults - I was not trying to say that sickle hock is a good condition but that I have seen sickle hocked horses that were not cow hocked. The cow hocked horse in my experience appears sickle hocked if viewed from the side only. Phil Who feels this thread has run its useful life cycle for now.
Re: [IceHorses] trausti in the herd
> > Tivar hasn't lost any weight either - although that's not necessarily as > good for Tivar as for Trausti! I think Teev may have even put on a couple > of pounds. i think you oughta send that pci of him with the fly mask on in for feif evaluation showing a perfect head and what was that word? Spectacular noble gaze or what was it... Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] trausti in the herd
>>> Here is Trausti week two. Still sticking with Nas but not fighting with >>> anyone and more and more grazing near the other guys. Here with >>> traveller. He looks good, Janice. He doesn't look like he's lost any weight. Unlike some Icelandic's, Trausti has never been a true air-fern, although he had put on some weight over the past year. When he moved here from California, he lost weight for a while, and I took that to be one of his signs of stress. Of course, he wasn't quite 6 then, but I'm still relieved to see him looking about the same weight. Tivar hasn't lost any weight either - although that's not necessarily as good for Tivar as for Trausti! I think Teev may have even put on a couple of pounds. That's ok with me...if keeping him out in that pasture keeps him from itching, we'll go with it. The pasture isn't that lush, but it keeps him busy. Still no signs of new SE sores, and he's still not wearing the flysheet, just the fly mask. He doesn't seem any more bothered by the bugs than any of the other horses. We have a change in the weather pattern coming up later this week - I'm keeping my fingers crossed that weather change won't set him back. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Re: My Spiritual Journey with Horses
>Can't seem to quiet my mind< The Bach Flower essence "White Chesnut" is a good one to still the mind. It can be put into your water bottle, taken straight or sprayed on you like a mist. This can be layered on top of Rescue Remedy as well. Kaaren(Major Frosted Flake and makes a living at it!!)
[IceHorses] More FIZO breeding rules musings
This is just crazy to me. The different marks have different weighting factors...and I'm glad that heads aren't weighted heavily, although I think 3% is still too much, and 1.5% is way too much for mane and tail. But, look at the rest of this: Conformation Head 3% Neck, withers & shoulders 10% Back and hindquarters 3% Proportions 7.5% Legs (quality) 6% Legs (joints)3% Hooves 6% Mane and tail 1.5% Total: 40% There are two categories for legs, and the "quality" score seems to be all about tendons. That's just odd to me, because in all the conformation classes, articles, etc., I don't remember much discussion being made about tendons, but a lot of focus on the leg faults like cow hocks, sickle hocks, over or under at the knees, wide-based, narrow based, toed in or toed out, etc. But here's the kicker: to me, THE telling part of a horse's conformation is his legs (and I mostly mean joints, using their terms) and his back. That's the basic structure of a riding horse, right? "No legs, no horse", right? And of the evaluation scores, those two categories combined are only given a total of 6% weighting. Manes, tails and heads are given a combined weighting of 4.5% - almost as much as his leg joints and his back. That's just bizarre to me. And why should the neck, withers and shoulders get 10%, compared to a grand total of 6% for legs and back? This is why I no longer care to travel to "see for myself"...there's just too much I can see wrong by reading the rules. (If you wonder why the total is just 40%, it's because 60% of the score comes from the riding part of the tests.) Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] OT Reiki for Christians
Nancy, (and anyone else) I found this website for us: http://www.christianreiki.org/ I'm intrigued by this practice. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > and respectfully Susan, I disagree about the "if you > can take it the > horse can" about heat. That was in answer to Fran who is very heat sensitive. > like the air was so hot and humid the horses never > really cooled down! Guess I've forgotten how stifling the humidity can be. It's true what they say about "dry heat". > if you > get mad send me a > reiki :) BWHAHAHAHAHA! You've given me some good laughs today! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
[IceHorses] FIZO breeding (conformation) rules - More musings
Under neck: "Neck, withers & shoulders A long, high-set, very fine neck, well-flexed at the poll, the neck is clearly separated from the body, high, prominent and well-shaped withers, shoulders long and sloping." Shoulders long and loping...? Doesn't a sloping shoulder tend to give a horse more reach as opposed to "lift and fold"? At least if it's coupled with a complimentary humerus bone? (The humerus bone nor the angle between the humerus and the shoulder isn't even mentioned in the standard, so I have no idea what they expect there.) Or am I misunderstanding their definition of "sloping"? Under gaits, it says: "Tölt: Even 4-beat rhythm with long strides in front and behind, lots of lift and action of the front legs, movements extremely flexible and supple, excellent high speed Slow tölt: Even 4-beat tölt with long strides in front and behind, elegant action and movement of the front legs, movements extremely flexible and supple. Trot: Confident 2-beat trot, movements high and supple, long strides and suspension. Excellent speed. So, in all the gaits they want high lift and action... Do I understand that correctly - we want to breed for a conformation that produces one way of moving...but we want the gaits to show another way of moving...? That would be exactly what the TWH did for years - breed for a horse with one way of moving, then have to mechanically interfere to force the horse to gait another way for the shows. That is what a "sloping shoulder" means, right - one that angles back and connects further into the back, right? Melnir has a long, sloping shoulder...but he's built to be an efficient mover, with lots of reach...and no knee action. If I want show-type action, shouldn't I breed for a shoulder/humerus ratio more like Trausti's? Don't get me wrong, I like all these horses, but I'm going to accept a wider range of gaits in my pleasure horses than the breed standard recognizes. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 11:44 AM, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now you can dismiss me as a flake! > > Susan in NV Far from being a flake in my book. You're training is an inspiration. I've been so distracted with work-recruiting, interviewing, hiring and having to work way more than I want to until the new doctor starts in two months. When hiring a new doctor, it's the perfect time to make changes so I keep thinking about what I want to change etc, etc. I'm having a hard time quieting my mind. Even though I'm doing clicker training, I'm not completely there and it shows. I've got some essential lavender oil I need to get out. I need to try harder to get into things other than work on my time off. -- Anna Southern Ohio
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
Guess I wasn't obnoxious enough! wow remember that deal, we oughta revisit that if anyone knows the website, was it the 1996 celebration where the young african american girl insisted on entering her flat shod walker in the WGC padded shoe class and they booed and jeered her, her parents were offered a bribe beforehand to not let her enter, and when they entered anyway the made death threats? Thats the good ol TWHBEA for ya. ahh these show people, gotta love em. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
actually, I am realizing the tendon name thing is regional. here we call one thing "blown tendons" and another thing "bowed tendons" and another thing "inflamed tendons". wonder what they all are actually. but you'd think if someone was going to use the term officially it would have an official definition. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
> > i myself frequently hold a "come to jesus" meeting > > with stonewall. > > BWAHHHAHAHAHAHA! I got my roundpen up and running again for my brthday present. I was so excited, even tho I was sick I took stonewall out to it for his first roundpen come to jesus meeting in about a year and a half. I sent him around and he took off crow hopping, bucking, farting, head snaking, spun in the opposite direction sending up clots of dirt all over me, wheeled around and trotted up to me actually beaming, just grinning from ear to ear like "wow, I missed our roundpen fun!" then he lowered his nose into the halter for me :) funny how we make roundpens for horses, and the ones that need em most think they are a recreational area. and the ones who dont need em just wonder why we are acting so serious. janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
[IceHorses] FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
I haven't revisited the FIZO breeding rules in a year or so, so I just took another look. Here are a few points I noticed right off the bat: It says that the average height of mares is 136cm (about 13.1-13.2H) and stallions about 138 cm (about 13.25 or so.) Ok, I believe that. BUT, under breeding GOALS: " Size: The official breeding goal gives room for substantial variation in size. A preferred range in height is 135 cm to 145 cm when measured with a stick." So, that tells me that they DO want to increase the height of the horse, since they want to range to start about where the average mare is now. Under head: "Head: A very beautiful, fine head. Fine, thin ears, well set and not too open. A large, open and alert eye with good bone structure around it. Fine skin and hair. Light jaws with a good gap between them. The nose profile straight and nostrils flared. A proud head." You know, I love my Icelandic's, and I've adjusted my definition of beauty to match the horses I love...but "fine heads"...? I've seen some pretty Icelandic heads, but not many that are truly "fine", and I don't think that's the breed norm. That's ok, too. Under Proportions: The horse should be full of splendour and presence. The legs should be long and the body light and cylindrical in shape with front, middle and hind sections approximately equal. I think I'd reserve the phrases "splendor and presence" for Saddlebreds, or maybe NSH, or show-type Arabs... I don't think that's what comes to my mind when I see Icelandics. I don't even want a "splendid" horse. I want a sound, useful horse. If you look at the older pictures of Icelandic's, you certainly won't see a lot of "fine heads" or "long, very fine necks." As I read somewhere recently, beware of people who want to "improve the breed." I think that applies to all breeds. I'm only on page 8 of 50, and I'm already thinking: I sure hope we don't "improve" the Icelandic right out of the breed. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
>>> Once the tendon sheath gets swollen it tends to do it again -- the >>> tissues are overstretched. The owner did an uncredibly stupid and >>> abusive thing, IMO -- tendons and ligaments need at least six months >>> of gradually increasing long slow distance work (with adequate cooling >>> out after the work) in order to condition to the work of distance >>> riding. I would agree with that. But...back to why "wet tendons" came up in the first place, do we KNOW what the judges are talking about? That term doesn't show up as a standard term on the first page or so of a google search, nor does it come up on www.equisearch.com or www.thehorse.com and those are a couple of the most commonly used equine reference sites. (I easily get meaningful hits for "sweet itch", "cow hocks", "sickle hocks", etc. on the two equine sites as well as with generic Google.) That tells me that it's not a widely used term in the USA, and if it's not an established term, who really knows how the Icelandic judges are using it. I believe that's what Janice was asking - it's what I'd like to know. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
> The owner did an uncredibly stupid and abusive thing, IMO no kiddin. then she has the nerve to tell me my stonewall would make a perfect endurance horse and if I wanted, out of the goodness of her heart and great generosity, she would ride him for me! who needs enemies with friends like that right :) But bless her heart, she doesnt GET it. This is the second horse in a row she's had thats come up with lameness issues. The first no one could ever figure out what caused it, it was intermittent,. But she rode him the same way. Just balls to the wall every time she gets on a horse and never less than a four hour ride in all kinds of heat. and she's about 65 years old! Now she is horse hunting again but i suspect has to get the paso mare well enough to dump at auction like the last poor soul, a gorgeous little rocky mountain horse gelding. and respectfully Susan, I disagree about the "if you can take it the horse can" about heat. I was with a horse last summer that overheated and like to croaked and now has anhydrosis from it. and the rider was "standing it". I was too, barely. but the horses were about to drop dead. it was one of those rides where when you stopped to rest it was like the air was so hot and humid the horses never really cooled down! I poured all my water over stonewalls neck to cool him and even tho he was very fit he was dragging so bad i felt terrible. i think its maybe close, but the horses are expending so much more energy in the heat than the rider... jmo. if you get mad send me a reiki :) Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Anyways--they went out and about today and Gat didn't run away with > her but she did have a snappy walk home. I uploaded a video of them > taken around the house. Good job Alex! Snappy walk is perfectly acceptable. So much for taking more than one session. -- Anna Southern Ohio
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
The owner did an uncredibly stupid and abusive thing, IMO Well said, Lynn. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
--- Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i myself frequently hold a "come to jesus" meeting > with stonewall. BWAHHHAHAHAHAHA! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I'd probably have to wire my jaws > shut beforehand. I'm afraid I'd need to wire my jaw shut, too. My friend that I bought my TWH mare and Whisper from took me to the Western Celebration which used to be held in Reno. I booed the Big Lick classes and got stared at by a lot of people. I totally embarrassed my friend, but who cares? I am actually disappointed I didn't get kicked out. Guess I wasn't obnoxious enough! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
i myself frequently hold a "come to jesus" meeting with stonewall. janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
>>>Her owner took her on a fifty mile endurance ride just out of > the blue, and she actually placed. Then her tendons were swollen > afterward. then the vet said she couldnt be ridden until they went > down. now every time shes ridden they swell back up. THATS what I > wonder if wet tendons are. Once the tendon sheath gets swollen it tends to do it again -- the tissues are overstretched. The owner did an uncredibly stupid and abusive thing, IMO -- tendons and ligaments need at least six months of gradually increasing long slow distance work (with adequate cooling out after the work) in order to condition to the work of distance riding. The muscles and cardiovascular system conditions much faster than the connective tissue -- the horse doesn't know this and it will feel good and will go like gangbusters, but the supposedly intelligent being on its back should rate it and keep it from harm. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Fly sheets?
I like the saxon stretch one. if it catches on things it doesnt rip so easy. Mic in wales has a great one that fits awesome but with shipping is pricey. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
I didnt say anything because my situation was so different V... but you went to a BETTER place with your horses. Mine were taken from a huge boarding facility they had been at for years and jaspar was actually the herd leader of the place, I'm not kidding. he was the leader of every trail ride there. and we moved to a WORSE place. Ten acres of dense woods and the cleared part was sand and stumps and landclearing debris. One fence around the huge pasture, no grass, no paddocks. no shelter. Just feed buckets and water. After the first hour they were standing looking at me like ok, when are we going home. After the first night they would call when they saw me walking to the truck to get something. By the second day jaspar was running the fence, tail flagged, snaking his head and acting like a brat. The others would just take off after him and they would tear around bucking and farting. It was just very very clear they were maddern fire. After a week the others started acting a little depressed and jaspar would just stare down his nose arrogant at me. Traveller got diahreah, stonewall got beat up repeatedly trying to latch on too closely to the others for security. After a month Jaspar was still cold as ice and stonewall would spook and jump out of his skin every time a bird flew over. They very very clearly felt they were camping and wanted to go home. But I feel if they had had grass it woulda been ok. But I still think your horses could be thinking WOW look at the GRASS and then ever now and then look up and wonder wow, wonder if anyone misses us at home... But in two months they seem normal. I think it helps that I dont turn them out altogether every day tho they can touch noses in their paddocks,. So when they are turned out together they go nuts playing and I think it is like the way it was at the boaridng barn when they got turn out with friends. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
I agree. I loved those shows. All the animals were happy and healthyand living in harmony. I obviously was living in a bubble. Or not. I had a college anthropology professor who had worked in Alaska and somehow was involved in the production of a Disney nature film about polar bears. He said they shot the mother bear then smeared peanut butter on her teats so the cubs would appear to be nursing. Of course, I was in college in an entire other century. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
> I can so relate to this. Everyone at work asked me if I was watching > the Derby, Preakness, etc. etc.When I said, "No, I love horses too > much to watch that kind of abuse" Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think this is how some of us feel about the Icelandic Horse show / > evaluation / competition scene; and why some of us are trying to help to > change things through education. Good segue back to Icelandics Judy! Absolutely. I think that's why many won't attend an evaluations, even as a spectator.I think people are opting not to subject themselves to that whole scene of poor riding and ill-fitting or improperly-used tack.It would be hard to watch for many of us, especially when the horse(s) subjected to this would be so graciously trying to cooperate DESPITE what their rider was doing. I've thought about attending an evaluations as a spectator . I still might. . .so that I can form my own opinions firsthand, and report on what I saw and experienced. But I have a lot of reservations and I'd probably have to wire my jaws shut beforehand. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
2008/6/9 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi Trish, > You are a kindred spirit.I understand completely. : )And it > bites because I love shows about nature. I grew up watching Wild Kingdom, > but it seems back then, the nature shows were a lot more censored and less > graphic. I agree. I loved those shows. All the animals were happy and healthy and living in harmony. I obviously was living in a bubble. Now ...I can't watch rodeos.. or my neighbour training those baby racehorses. The trainers that train racehorses might not all be that bad...but this guy certainly is awful. He has a brand new aluminum trailer (with living quarters)...and a brand new one ton to haul it. The money must be good. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Florida Fat Trick Pony Graduate demonstates a trick
> Janice, this one isn't Cali...but maybe you can tell from the camera angle. ha, i'm onto that trick! All you have to do to get him to do that one is dribble a tablespoon of water on his head! And he dont care WHERE he is! janice Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] What Teev thinks of people who give horses baths...
Hahaha, see that mask is good for him image! Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
http://www.myhorse.com/health/preventative/wind_puffs_are_swelling_in_your_horses_ankle.aspx#top hmm. the wind puffs I have seen on off track TBs were not bad at all, almost just cosmetic. Its actually a paso I know that is on pasture rest. Her owner took her on a fifty mile endurance ride just out of the blue, and she actually placed. Then her tendons were swollen afterward. then the vet said she couldnt be ridden until they went down. now every time shes ridden they swell back up. THATS what I wonder if wet tendons are. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
I can so relate to this. Everyone at work asked me if I was watching the Derby, Preakness, etc. etc.When I said, "No, I love horses too much to watch that kind of abuse" they all look at me with this "Say what???" look.Then I tell them how immature the bodies of the horses that are raced are and explain what a throwaway, inhumane industry it is -- like Pitbull fighting or greyhound racing I think this is how some of us feel about the Icelandic Horse show / evaluation / competition scene; and why some of us are trying to help to change things through education. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
oh man, theres this one, its been on a few times, i think its on national geographic channel, about how those kimodo dragon lizards have spit so venomous with bacteria that the way they kill things is to bite it in the leg and then just follow it around while it slowly dies an agonzing death from blood poisoning. They filmed the whole thing. at the end the deer was in such agony and all with that mean MEAN lizard following him and i got so MAD about the camera man, and how cruel it was for him to just record that and not help the deer. and I have not liked those big lizards people keep as pets since, I hate em. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Gaiting In Hand
Judy Ryder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > A young Morgan filly, naturally gaited, gaiting in hand: > > http://gaited-horse.blogspot.com/2008/06/gaiting-in-hand.html > Oh she's a dumpling! What a lot of natural talent. Do you know Judy -- does she trot in the field as well? -- Renee M. in soggy Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
On Jun 9, 2008, at 5:14 PM, Janice McDonald wrote: > I have seen > horses with tendons that swell after exertion and they have to be > wrapped and have ice packs. Its a chronic thing after a while and the > horse has to be put out to pasture. I dont think of it at all as a > little minor thing! So I want to know, IS it a minor thing?? Or is > it what other horses get when they develop tendons that swell on > exertion and make them lame. It sounds like wind puffs and needs to be treated (including backing off on the work) before it gets chronic: http://www.myhorse.com/health/preventative/wind_puffs_are_swelling_in_your_horses_ankle.aspx#top Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
pippa258 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Me too! I remember once watching a documentary on hippos, thinking, > well, they're vegetarians, should be okay. . . It just did me in...can't > watch > Animal Planet or Nature shows anymore. It is self preservation as I > think about it for weeks, months afterwards. Hi Trish, You are a kindred spirit.I understand completely. : )And it bites because I love shows about nature. I grew up watching Wild Kingdom, but it seems back then, the nature shows were a lot more censored and less graphic. -- Renee M.
Re: [IceHorses] Derby
Hi Anna, Anna Hopkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The UPS guy knows that I have horses and left me a button with UPS and a > picture of Big Brown. Even though I like Big Brown, I told the girls at the > desk > that I didn't want it and shame on UPS for supporting horse racing.< I can so relate to this. Everyone at work asked me if I was watching the Derby, Preakness, etc. etc.When I said, "No, I love horses too much to watch that kind of abuse" they all look at me with this "Say what???" look. Then I tell them how immature the bodies of the horses that are raced are and explain what a throwaway, inhumane industry it is -- like Pitbull fighting or greyhound racing (since most people will relate to dogs more than horses). Most people are shocked and had / have absolutely no idea.They just see a bunch of sleek, apparently "pampered" horses and think it's a great thing for the horses. -- Renee M.
[IceHorses] Debbie - thanks for the reply about the track system!
Hi Debbie, Thanks for the reply -- I'm catching up on some older e-mails. : ) > > No, I think you will be fine, you may want to have some narrow areas, > > like waves along the way just remember to alwsys have the corners > > wider< Good point. I have 4 horses, however, my land is smaller, the area that you > > have seen with the track on it is about 2.5 acres and is subdivided > > into separate tracks... Oh my gosh -- it looks soo much bigger!You are really utilizing your space well and to the fullest advantage I think. >the smallest area, the north track is only 75 feet x 110,< Wow. . . that's smaller than my present dry lot (80' x 250'). Once the track is in place, I'm going to shrink the dry lot or paddock up by the barn, putting my round pen up in part of it and making a small "play" arena in half of it. >I keep the grass growing on my tracks, it helps keep the horses moving, however, I don't have an IR horse currently, I have one who has not been tested, he is my, could be IR horse,< I am hoping that eventually, I will be able to take muzzles off with this system -- at least part of the time. Did you read about the case study in the Paddock Paradise book of the endurance horse that foundered? But after his owner implemented a track system, he's been sound for two years (I think it was). That's encouraging to me. a MFT, I keep him on Mag Ox, Equiessence (spelling) is the magnesium product I've tried. I need to feed it again I think. It certainly can't hurt. > . . . when will your dry season come?< Every year is different! We're on sandy, well-drained soil however, so if we do get a dry spell, my pasture DOES go dormant. > > > > I guess it depends on if you are using the track as a food source as > > we are, That's my plan. Two of mine don't have any metabolic concerns to worry about. > > the other thing you could do, is start with a smaller track, maybe 1/3 > > of the area you will end up with, and then extend it as they eat/wear > > the grass down The fence we will be putting up is going to be permanent. And the shape of our lot (low and rather narrow), plus the way we have things configured won't make putting a lot of tracks in very practical. . . . I wish we would have known about this system way back when we were putting up fencing and building our barns. > Your comment about the cow, is interesting, maybe you could borrow a > couple cows to eat down the track Actually, I am seriously considering getting a family milk cow. . . Have to do some more thinking on that. . . or go lay down until the feeling passes. : ) > > > > I have said a lot, but I don't think I told you what to do, so I don't > > know if I was much help.. Yes you are/were! This kind of "brainstorming" is good to hear. I'll keep you posted as our track progresses.I am hoping we can work on it this week -- if the darned rain ever stops here. . . My pasture is a jungle. -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] I am going to hell for this
> > he is base narrow with ok mane sloppy gaited and upright hocks and oh. > > only a 2 .2 for willingness if that! > > I've found that performance is not always directly related to > conformation... that would be in horses, of course. HAHAHAHAHAHAHnancy nancy nancy! I am SHOCKED girlfran. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
I have seen horses with tendons that swell after exertion and they have to be wrapped and have ice packs. Its a chronic thing after a while and the horse has to be put out to pasture. I dont think of it at all as a little minor thing! So I want to know, IS it a minor thing?? Or is it what other horses get when they develop tendons that swell on exertion and make them lame. IS it a precursor to that? I mean for gosh sakes surely there is a veterinary explanation or definition of wet tendons. And to me see, this is part of the overall problem. Trying to get around the culture barrier in this breed in order to find anything out. And if you ask questions you get bullied and ran out on a rail. Why can't someone just answer a dang question and then if we americans dont know what the heck it means maybe someone international who knows both cultures can explain. I know intellectually that there has to be a medical explanation of "wet tendons" and someone has to know it and its just maddening that no one will explain it. Also, why doesnt someone make a list of all the criteria the horses are evaluated by with an explanation to the side of why that particular aspect is important. For instance. Fetlock hair. Its given some merit. Why? Why is it important to the breed? Seems Feif or somebody could do that and it would be very interesting to all, why some things that seem silly are not. Like mane and tail. The way it's evaluated the breed obviously values the long flowy mane and tail with heavy forelock moreso than the puffy bushy mane and tail why?? Appearance only? Does it have something to do with not catching on weeds, swimming in icy fjords, speedracking through volcanic ash... surely, logically, these points of evaluation are based on how it furthers the breed, or hurts it, and to do that, first of all you have to know what the heck it is, define it. Define wet tendons, define the acceptable length of fetlock hair or mane and tail, explain why etc. Its like someone knows, and it would nice if everyone knew. I could propose it as an article for the quarterly but someone else would have to write it. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Tosca in purple
i love the purple on tosca, she looks great. i also use stowaway packs, really like them. Raven Lucy & Molly, the Girl Doggies Huginn & Dixie Chick, the Back Behind the Barn Ponies Maggie Rose, the cat who makes me sneeze http://www.myspace.com/iceponygoddess Respect ALL Earthlings. We are all animals of this planet. We are all creatures.
Re: [IceHorses] wet tendons
> These are tendons that are not tight, have a soft feel and are somewhat > puffy feeling like they have a layer of fluid over them. i know, but what are they called medically in america. surely someone knows. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
I have seen horses with tendons that swell after exertion and they have to be wrapped and have ice packs. Its a chronic thing after a while and the horse has to be put out to pasture. I dont think of it at all as a little minor thing! So I want to know, IS it a minor thing?? Or is it what other horses get when they develop tendons that swell on exertion and make them lame. IS it a precursor to that? I mean for gosh sakes surely there is a veterinary explanation or definition of wet tendons. And to me see, this is part of the overall problem. Trying to get around the culture barrier in this breed in order to find anything out. And if you ask questions you get bullied and ran out on a rail. Why can't someone just answer a dang question and then if we americans dont know what the heck it means maybe someone international who knows both cultures can explain. I know intellectually that there has to be a medical explanation of "wet tendons" and someone has to know it and its just maddening that no one will explain it. Also, why doesnt someone make a list of all the criteria the horses are evaluated by with an explanation to the side of why that particular aspect is important. For instance. Fetlock hair. Its given some merit. Why? Why is it important to the breed? Seems Feif or somebody could do that and it would be very interesting to all, why some things that seem silly are not. Like mane and tail. The way it's evaluated the breed obviously values the long flowy mane and tail with heavy forelock moreso than the puffy bushy mane and tail why?? Appearance only? Does it have something to do with not catching on weeds, swimming in icy fjords, speedracking through volcanic ash... surely, logically, these points of evaluation are based on how it furthers the breed, or hurts it, and to do that, first of all you have to know what the heck it is, define it. Define wet tendons, define the acceptable length of fetlock hair or mane and tail, explain why etc. Its like someone knows, and it would nice if everyone knew. I could propose it as an article for the quarterly but someone else would have to write it. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Gaiting In Hand
> One of the biggest challenges in endurance and CTR in the last decade > or two has been to educate the vets who work the competitions to learn > to evaluate lameness in gaited horses . . . because most of the gaited > horses (TWHs, MFTs, PFs, PPs, RMHs, etc) competing will gait during the > in-hand presentation (as well as under saddle). and many paso finos and some icelandics and others with high action will even have high action at the dogwalk, which gives them a mincing appearance, something that signals alarm in non gaited breeds. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
Janice McDonald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > what are wet tendons. its scarey that no one knows the official > answer to this simple question > janice > Janice, Are you looking for a lay-person's explanation / understanding of the term, or something more schlolarly? I've always thought of "wet tendons" as tendons that don't feel firm and tight -- but feel more like they have some fluid around them. -- Renee M. in Michigan P.S. I thought your daughter was gorgeous! And you're right, she gets away with that haircut very well!
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
>> The obvious solution, of course, is to get one or two more horses to >> babysit each other when one or two is taken out. : ) Fabulous idea!! We've found that 25 is a good number... ;) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > Now you can dismiss me as a flake! > Oh Susan -- you're not a flake -- you're my new hero!!! : ) It takes guts to step out of the box and then talk about it. I don't quite get "Reiki" and how it works or what it's about exactly, but if it works for you, you go girl! -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 8:23 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The obvious solution, of course, is to get one or two more horses to babysit > each other when one or two is taken out. : ) > Fabulous idea!! V
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> In my experience, it doesn't matter how long they have > been "home" whether 2 weeks or 10 years! Hi Susan and Virginia. I think Susan may be right. . . It's very common in two horse "herds" for them to become extremely bound to one another and difficult to split apart. The obvious solution, of course, is to get one or two more horses to babysit each other when one or two is taken out. : ) -- Renee M. in Michigan
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
You might want to stop reading while you still think it makes sense! Oh my - I guess none of it makes sense then. Other than the -1.4 for height and the 1 for Parents, all the other scoresare in the 80's or 90's. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
>>> Or anyone else. I have this sheet printed from www.worldfengur that >>> appears to be a >>> numerical listing of scores applied to Toasa and Yrsa's sire. Most of it >>> makes sense, >>> although since he has 102 for walk, I guess 100 is not a perfect score. You might want to stop reading while you still think it makes sense! Evaluation numbers range from 5.0-10.0. Numbers that are in the 100-ish range are BLUP scores, and from a mathematical/computer modeling point of view (and yes, I have career expertise in the area of computer modeling) I can tell you that BLUP, as used in the Icelandic Horse system, basically means "blooper." :) There's an old saying in the computer world - GIGO, which means Garbage In, Garbage Out. If yout input data is flawed, then your calculated results will be flawed. There are so many flaws in the inputs used to calculate BLUP, that it's downright embarrassing. I think Judy has a page on her website, quoting some posts I made on the subject years ago, and I seem to remember that our Penny Hodge also had input on the subject - Penny is a DVM, and I think she has a MS in Animal Science. I can trash the whole idea from a mathematical modeling/statistics viewpoint, and Penny (I'm pretty sure it was Penny? It was several years ago, so maybe it was someone else...) saw the flaws from the Animal Science perspective. In short, BLUP doesn't hold up to scrutiny from any angle. I think Janice basically summarized part of the flaws in BLUP the other day. How was it she phrased it? It would be like predicting that one of our daughters would look like Madonna if we just died our hair blonde, had a nose job, liposuction and other plastic surgery... You simply cannot predict the genetic future based on human-influenced characteristics, especially if the characteristics being judged aren't 100% objective and quantifiable. It was when I saw what BLUP was, and how laughable it is, that I REALLY lost all faith in the Icelandic evaluation system. It's junk science. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
>>> I don't think I have seen a cow hocked horse that was not also sickle >>> hocked by your >>> definition. First, it's not "my" definition. Those are standard terms used in modern horsemanship. And yes, you can have one without the other, and varying degrees of each. I didn't have to travel to any evaluation to learn that - I've been to plenty of 4-H judging classes and other local educational events. I can also find plenty of that kind of information in good books, magazines, and these days, online. :) >>> Sickle hocked by itself okay. Really? I believe that both are considered faults - and both are known to be predisposing to bone spavin, and condition that seems abnormally common in Icelandics compared to other breeds. That's another reason that stallion's legs were so shocking to me. I don't think I'd consider either "ok." Granted, no horse is perfect, but both should be noted and considered when breeding. And, as always the intended use of the horse should be considered - some faults are deal-breakers in some sports, but not so major in others. >>> This stallion you refer to do you know what mark it got for legs (joints)? There are two scores for legs. I believe he had a 7.5 for one, and an 8 for the other. I know both scores were at least 7.5/average. What shocked me was that his legs reminded me of Big Mac's - the horse that the vet analyzed for me as faulty about 18-19 years before I saw that stallion. I knew from the first that Mac had less-than-desirable legs, and I think we were lucky that we didn't use him and longer or harder than we did. >>> The evaluations are most valuable if you know the individual marks. The >>> total mark >>> gives an overview of the horse but the individual notes give the details. >>> From these >>> you have a better idea of what the horse's strengths and weaknesses are. I think many of us know that, and yes, I was looking at the stallion's leg scores. But if they aren't down-grading legs appropriately, even the individual scores don't really matter to me. The whole system becomes flawed. What we question is how horses with "wet tendons", and cow/sickle hocks can be average and above average leg scores - then be touted as "highly evaluated." I'd say that Big Mac was a pretty "lowly evaluated" gelding, but we loved him...but I sure wouldn't have bred a horse with his conformation. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses]My Spiritual Journey in Horses
What an intersting thread... It was a perfect day today, 70's, with lovely high clouds that played peek a boo with the sun, a light breeze... a perfect day I put charm on the picket line to have a bag of hay, she did great... Lavender helped River go into the water the first time with me on his back... It is good stuff... I will have to take a look at Linda Tellington's work more closely, I have been doing my thing along with PNH, as I just have a hard time watching most all other trainers... -- PNH Levels 1 & 2 Clinics, Rochester MN http://www.sittinghorse.us The Soul of a Horse ~ has touched my soul, may it touch yours too! ~ thesoulofahorse.com ~
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
>>> Gat didn't run off back to the barn today--she just did a snappy walk. I >>> think Alex >>> is now more aware about what to do. Please tell Alex that I'm darned proud of her. She's really growing up to be quite the horsewoman. Their progress has been so much fun to watch. >>> Actually--I was thinking of filming Alex doing groundwork with Orri--they >>> don't do >>> much but he will follow her moves, it's cute. You should enter both videos - they are an inspiring pair. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Gaiting In Hand
On Jun 9, 2008, at 1:33 PM, Judy Ryder wrote: > A young Morgan filly, naturally gaited, gaiting in hand: > > http://gaited-horse.blogspot.com/2008/06/gaiting-in-hand.html > One of the biggest challenges in endurance and CTR in the last decade or two has been to educate the vets who work the competitions to learn to evaluate lameness in gaited horses . . . because most of the gaited horses (TWHs, MFTs, PFs, PPs, RMHs, etc) competing will gait during the in-hand presentation (as well as under saddle). Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://members.dslextreme.com/users/napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Nancy Sturm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My goodness, Virginia. You live in a park. It is so beautiful there. > > Nancy > It is beautiful here--especially with all the spring blooms. The previous owners planted a lot of lovely shrubs, great trees, nice plants--I'm so fortunate. I probably won't add any new plants this year--I want to see the place through the full seasons first. V
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:33 PM, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The VERY BEST book is by Alexander Kurland "Clicker > Training you horse in Pictures" or something like > that. I already have 3 of her books and I think one is that one. Once we're settled in here I hope to have more time to play. V
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Karen Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk > > > She's living the life I wanted to live. :) If they can stay that relaxed > for most of their rides, then I have 100% confidence she'll work through any > running back to the barn issues. What a pair they are... > Gat didn't run off back to the barn today--she just did a snappy walk. I think Alex is now more aware about what to do. > Is that an entry for the Natural Icelandic Virtual show? It should be. The > "Living the Good Life" class. :) Actually--I was thinking of filming Alex doing groundwork with Orri--they don't do much but he will follow her moves, it's cute. V
RE: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Karen Thomas Sickle hocks affect the plane that comes up under the horse (seen in the side view if that helps), while cow-hocks affect the plane that runs across the horse - seen in the rear view. It's unfortunate when a horse has faults in both planes, but it's quite possible, and unfortunately, not that uncommon in some breeds. I've seen it in several Icelandic's, but it really disturbed me to see both in an Icelandic breeding stallion I don't think I have seen a cow hocked horse that was not also sickle hocked by your definition. Sickle hocked by itself okay. This stallion you refer to do you know what mark it got for legs (joints)? The evaluations are most valuable if you know the individual marks. The total mark gives an overview of the horse but the individual notes give the details. From these you have a better idea of what the horse's strengths and weaknesses are. Phil Who needs to go and get some farm work done
Re: [IceHorses] Gaiting In Hand
She's going to make someone a sweet riding horse. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses]My Spiritual Journey in Horses
Way to go Susan. It's low 80's here, beautiful and breezy, and Tosca broke quite a sweat. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses]My Spiritual Journey in Horses
I had a very wonderfully calm session with Andi today! He was, to use Janice's term "calmatose" and his HR stayed in the 70's with me riding him. This is a formally overreactive horse who would hold in his tension, hold his breath, clamp his tail, till he couldn't take it anymore at which point he'd try to squirt out from under you. He was never abused, hell I've had him since he was a baby. He just can not take pressure. Well, 2 hours of working with him today and it's in the 80's and he wasn't even wet under the saddle! Janice has the fat circus pony training in Florida, and I have the metaphysical out here in Nevada! Either way, they're working for us! Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
[IceHorses] Gaiting In Hand
A young Morgan filly, naturally gaited, gaiting in hand: http://gaited-horse.blogspot.com/2008/06/gaiting-in-hand.html Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
>>> You must be looking at a very strange horse to be both cow hocked and >>> sickle hocked. >>> I'm not sure why you'd think that funny...? Sickle hocks affect the plane that comes up under the horse (seen in the side view if that helps), while cow-hocks affect the plane that runs across the horse - seen in the rear view. It's unfortunate when a horse has faults in both planes, but it's quite possible, and unfortunately, not that uncommon in some breeds. I've seen it in several Icelandic's, but it really disturbed me to see both in an Icelandic breeding stallion.. My old TWH had both, slightly worse in one leg than in the other - that was the very first conformation lessons I ever had. The vet explained them both to me on the prepurchase exam, and Mac's was the first prepurchase exam I ever had done.He was pretty amazed that Mac was still sound after wearing pads for about 3 years. He told me that he wouldn't "pass" Mac as a breeding animal or as high-level athlete, but as a light-use pleasure horse, and since he was a gelding, he'd probably be ok. (He was ok, for 19 more years of light use.) There are some sketches of how the leg faults look in horses. http://horses-arizona.com/pages/articles/legset.html I didn't read the text on that page - I'm only referring to the sketches. Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] wet tendons
phil. what are wet tendons. Janice These are tendons that are not tight, have a soft feel and are somewhat puffy feeling like they have a layer of fluid over them. Phil
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk She's living the life I wanted to live. :) If they can stay that relaxed for most of their rides, then I have 100% confidence she'll work through any running back to the barn issues. What a pair they are... Is that an entry for the Natural Icelandic Virtual show? It should be. The "Living the Good Life" class. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
Or anyone else. I have this sheet printed from www.worldfengur that appears to be a numerical listing of scores applied to Toasa and Yrsa's sire. Most of it makes sense, although since he has 102 for walk, I guess 100 is not a perfect score. Opposite height at withers, it reads -1.4 What does that mean? Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] I am going to hell for this
> he is base narrow with ok mane sloppy gaited and upright hocks and oh. > only a 2 .2 for willingness if that! > janice I've found that performance is not always directly related to conformation... that would be in horses, of course. Nancy
RE: [IceHorses] Questions for Phil
-Original Message- From: Karen Thomas >When was the last evaluation you attended in the USA? Last US one I attended was in Vallejo, CA about 5 years ago. I have attended two in Canada subsequently. Christine attended ID evaluations a year and a half ago and says there was a seminar the day before that explained the process. >Can you explain to us what "wet tendons" are, in the context of Icelandic judging? These are tendons that are not tight, have a soft feel and are somewhat puffy feeling like they have a layer of fluid over them. >What >percentage of the leg score do they affect, as oppose to, say, feathers? >What else goes >into the two leg scores? The FIZO rules don't explain this. It would be worth looking at the assessment form the judges use to mark the evaluations along with the actual FIZO rules. I think it will make it easier to see what is considered in each part of the conformation score and also how the riding portion is marked. I will give details from the Assessment form as it seems you know what the FIZO rules are. Tendons are much more important than feathers in the scoring. There are three "notes" about tendons. My understanding is that an abundance or lack of feathers would usually be used as the deciding factor of whether the mark goes up or down 0.5 when the judges are a bit on the fence as to the final mark for Legs (quality) section. This mark is multiplied by 6 out of the total of 40. The score is affected positively by: 1 correct limbs, 2 strong joints, 3 well separated tendons, 4 strong tendons, 5 abundant feathers, and 6 dry tendons. Negative points are given for A long pasterns, B weak pasterns, C Upright pasterns, D behind at knee, E steep hindlegs, F small joints, G unclear separation, H thin tendons, I wet tendons and J no feathers. The positive attributes are each numbered and the negative ones denoted by alphabet. >Can you explain how a horse with cow hocks and sickle hocks gets a 7.5-8 or >above? (I saw >such a horse in person, and was able to touch his legs and look at them >from all angles.) >How can a horse with such legs get judged "average" or "above average"? You must be looking at a very strange horse to be both cow hocked and sickle hocked. Are you saying the horses you looked at got 7.5 or 8 for the leg portion or overall? .Can you write us an explanation of what the two leg scores comprise, in >detail? It's not >spelled out in the FIZO rules - I can't tell how much is based on >superficial traits, and >how much is based on actual structure? On the assessment form the section on Legs (joints) deals with straightness of legs. The mark is multiplied by 3 out the total 40. Positive notes given for hindlegs; 1 straight legs, Negative for hindlegs; A toe out, B toe in, C narrow, D twisting hocks and E broken toe line. Frontlegs positive; straight legs. Negative; G toe out, H toe in, I narrow, J paddles, K broken toe line. This means legs account for 9/40 or 23% of the total conformation score. This is not including the part of Proportions which is influenced by the legs nor does it include Hooves which are another 6/40 or 15%. I do believe if people look at the FIZO and the Assessment Form together they will be able to understand the system better. My quick explanation is that the FIZO outlines the scoring and the Assessment Form details what attributes to consider in each section and its overall importance or multiplication factor. Phil
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
My goodness, Virginia. You live in a park. It is so beautiful there. Nancy
[IceHorses] Fly sheets?
The flies seem to be so annoying that I'm wondering if I should get fly sheets and wondered which fabric was best -- polyester or nylon? There's some decent prices on the following link but I'm not sure which is the best to buy: http://www.justforponies.com/Pages/SheetComparison.htm What do you all use, if any? V Virginia Tupper NB, Canada
Re: [IceHorses] I am going to hell for this
he is base narrow with ok mane sloppy gaited and upright hocks and oh. only a 2 .2 for willingness if that! janice
[IceHorses] Article About Racing
>From Mary Midkiff: This article appeared in the June 8, 2008 New York Sunday Newsday Opinion/Editorial section. www.newsday.com I hope you enjoy it! Sport of kings needs some queens BY MARY D. MIDKIFF | Mary D. Midkiff is the author of "She Flies Without Wings: How Horses Touch a Woman's Soul" and "Fitness, Performance and the Female Equestrian." June 8, 2008 It hasn't been very long since women gave horses a new lease on life. At the moment when these great animals seemed least likely to move forward in the modern world, we were there to save them. That instant came in the mid-20th century, when the need for horses for work and war was waning and their sporting uses were relatively limited. As women were gaining more freedom to plan their lives and their families, they found, or rediscovered, the partnership of horses. Without us, horses might well be on their way to extinction, a novelty creature in a zoo, a safari animal in a wild horse sanctuary out west, or a mass-produced tenderloin on the daily menu. While horses are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves in open spaces, and have been for centuries, the modern world so limited their utility and natural habitats that someone had to step in. Women have taken on the role as the primary caregivers, protectors, supporters, proponents, sponsors and zealots for the horse. The numbers tell the story. Most American horse sports have shifted over time and now enjoy tremendous levels of female involvement from top to bottom. In the English disciplines (such as jumping, eventing, and dressage) more than 85 percent of participating owners, handlers, riders, grooms and managers are female. In the Western disciplines (team penning, reining, cutting, western pleasure, trail classes), more than 60 percent of the players are girls and women. Youth-oriented horse organizations are more than 90 percent female. The barns, judging stands and show arenas have been given over to, or taken over by, women who lead the way and make the decisions about where these animals are heading in this world. Which brings us, on this weekend of the Belmont Stakes, to horse racing. In this very unusual year, as the sport has enjoyed its annual trip to the national spotlight, it also has had to wrestle with its greatest demons in a very public way. While celebrating a run at the Triple Crown by Big Brown, the racing world has agonized over the tragic death of Eight Belles after its greatest race, the Kentucky Derby. One observation seems very timely: The boardrooms, executive suites and grandstands of the sport remain persistently and conspicuously lacking in women. Racing would do well to embrace and promote women's influence throughout its structure, as virtually all other equestrian sports have in recent years. Standout female heroes such as Secretariat's owner, Helen "Penny" Chenery, and jockeys like Julie Krone and Diane Crump have provided ample guiding light for other women to follow. Select college and university equine business and management programs are now training and graduating women looking for careers in racing and the horse industry. And there are still moments of plain good fortune. Kentucky's new first lady, Jane Beshear, is an avid horsewoman and very attentive to horse sports and racing, as is her husband, Gov. Steve Beshear. But for every Jane Beshear who can't be denied by force of office and dedication, there are thousands of women whose involvement the sport could dearly use if it would proactively choose to empower them. There are some reasons for the current disconnect. Horse racing, in this case Thoroughbred horse racing, by definition means that millions of dollars are on the line. It is the richest of all horse sports, where every dollar counts - often at the potential expense of the animal. It is here that men and women tend to part company, because most women do not consider horses to be gambling machinery, and certainly do not consider them to be expendable. The owner's accountant says the racehorse has to be held at an emotional arm's length for the spreadsheet to make sense; generally speaking, women can't buy into that kind of relationship. In the hearts of women, the horse deserves family status. From the time we are girls in love with ponies on to womanhood featuring horses as either a recreational or professional focus, the core connection never compromises itself. Men often - and a few women sometimes - seem able to take a few steps back from that connection and live with horses more as commodities than companions. The urgency of earning a living can do that. But for the most part, women are uncomfortable with the idea that economic pressures should dominate all difficult decisions surrounding the horse, especially when it involves a breed of horse that, in recent times, is clearly not being bred and built to take a lot of pressure. That compassionate counterbalance is crucial to the future of horse racing. It weaves itself eas
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:10 PM, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008/6/9 Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> They do! I wish Orri and I could get it right. > > Can you have someone come out and give you lessons at your house? I > made tremendous progress when I had one of the pony club instructors > give me private lessons... > I thought of that too but I haven't looked into it yet. V
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
2008/6/9 Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > They do! I wish Orri and I could get it right. Can you have someone come out and give you lessons at your house? I made tremendous progress when I had one of the pony club instructors give me private lessons... Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Wanda Lauscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008/6/9 Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk > > What a nice pair they make! > They do! I wish Orri and I could get it right. V
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
2008/6/9 Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk What a nice pair they make! Thanks for sharing. Wanda
[IceHorses] Re:Home From Gov.Knowles
> Raven landing on her shoulder< I had a similar thing happen to me last August when Lalli put a foot in a hole & went straight down with me. He was not hurt & I was was shaken up with a sore shoulder for a few days. I know I've shared with you all about carrying a waist pouch with homeopathics & rescue remedy, but I also cut myself some 80's vintage looking shoulder pads out of 1/2" Skito foam & tuck them under my bra strap. While they won't help my ribs or collar bone, they do protect the point of the shoulder/top of the humerus which is where I usually hit. Tried the body protectors, but they are just too hot & bulky for where we live most of the year. Considering I've only had 2 falls in 14 years back riding, both from the guys putting a foot in a whole while moving fast, I consider myself lucky. Heal quickly Raven. Kaaren
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
what are wet tendons. its scarey that no one knows the official answer to this simple question janice
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:40 PM, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk > > BEAUTIFUL! I would also tell Alex that for now, do her > faster gaits going away from home, and only WALK on > the way back home for now. > Will do! Thanks. V
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 2:36 PM, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Lavender has a calming effect, but you must use > essential oils. And it is for both of us. I rub a > few drops on my hands, let the horse smell it, then > rub some around their nose. > I must try that. I have a small bottle of Pure Essential Oil - Fine Lavender -- I don't remember why I bought it originally but maybe now it'll have a purpose. V
Re: [IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
--- Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk BEAUTIFUL! I would also tell Alex that for now, do her faster gaits going away from home, and only WALK on the way back home for now. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
--- Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK, can't help but ask -- corn flake or frosted > flake? Frosted - I have a sweet tooth! >what's the aroma oil for? You or the > horses? Do you let > them sniff it or do you rub it on them? Lavender has a calming effect, but you must use essential oils. And it is for both of us. I rub a few drops on my hands, let the horse smell it, then rub some around their nose. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
--- Virginia Tupper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I haven't tried a clicker yet, but it is something I > do want to try sometime. The VERY BEST book is by Alexander Kurland "Clicker Training you horse in Pictures" or something like that. Go to Amazon and type in alexander Kurland. My clicker book is currently on loan to my friend/instructor the 3 day eventer. It's nice to know that someone who was on the short list to the Olympics is open to different training methods. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
[IceHorses] Derby
>>I had to quit watching Animal Cops and most of the programs on Animal Planet for the same reason. I'm sure some will see that as cowardly, but it's really just self-preservation. I've been this way my whole life and as I get older, it seems I get worse. -- Renee M. in Michigan<< Me too! I remember once watching a documentary on hippos, thinking, well, they're vegetarians, should be okay. Couldn't have been more wrong as they showed a bull hippo deliberately killing a newborn calf and the cow trying to defend the baby. It just did me in...can't watch Animal Planet or Nature shows anymore. It is self preservation as I think about it for weeks, months afterwards. Trish
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
>>> It seems to me that the most logical way for you to be dissuaded from >>> your beliefs of what happens at an Evaluation, or to have the >>> satisfaction of proving that you were right all along, would be to >>> attend an evaluation. No need to take a horse. Spectators can get close >>> to the action and attend the seminars. Why should every single interested individual have to assume the "burden of proof" when the orgs could answer a lot of basic questions for ALL newbies in a single document or video? Documents can be posted on the websites and dispersed to the masses for no additional cost. Videos are pretty cheap to make in the greater scheme of things, and have been for many years - especially when someone like Stan volunteers his time and talents - and can be posted to the websites, or sold for a nominal fee. There's no reason for anyone to have to "go" anywhere to get such basic information in this day and age. The only reason to force people to "go" as far as I can see is to enforce the elitist gap between those who have the time and means to travel about this big old continent of ours...versus those won't don't have the means. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
>>> I meant to add one other thing - while I am not that convinced about the >>> effectiveness of Icelandic horse evaluations, I have seen no evidence >>> whatsoever of judges being drunk or hungover while judging, or of judges >>> showing any bias in favour of their host's horses. It occurs to me that each national organizations probably can do a lot about setting the tone in what they allow, or in what they conveniently ignore. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
phil. what are wet tendons. janice
Re: [IceHorses] was show trauma now breed. evaluations-long
>>>We have one per year here if we're lucky. Some years there's none if it's >>>not economically viable due to low numbers of horses to be judged (ie >>>less than 10). I've been to a few in the Netherlands, and the occasional >>>WC or Landsmot one, but frankly IMO attending a breeding show is about as >>>exciting as watching paint dry unless you happen to have a horse there >>>or are otherwise involved (and I'm speaking as a former Breeding >>>Leader!). ... Breeding seminars are a bit of a different thing, and I've >>>been to a few more of those, but again, not that many, simply because of >>>costs and the fact that so many of them held in Europe or Iceland are, >>>not surprisingly, not held in English, and while I can get by in >>>Icelandic it's bloody hard work spending an entire weekend trying to >>>learn things at a seminar in a foreign language. Thanks, Mic. If the logistics (time, money, language) are hard for you to get to many or to get a lot out of them, imagine how difficult they are in a country the geographical size of the USA where we probably have a similar number of evaluations and horses involved. It's just not feasible to try to bully everyone with a interest in the future of the breed into making this sort of travel happen...and in the meantime, when we see SO many things wrong with the process, WHY would we want to move mountains to get to a questionable event? I started out with an interest, but by the time there was an evaluation anywhere close to me, I'd already seen some great results from my own breeding programand I saw way too many flaws in the system to be persuaded to change my schedule to go. >>> In my opinion the shoeing and boots etc are not the problem at breeding >>> shows, but the system as a whole desperately needs a rethink. Sigh. What's wrong with us, Mic?We're not the women we once were, I'm afraid. I think I agreed with about everything you said in that last post! ;) Karen Thomas, NC
[IceHorses] Link to video of Alex riding Gat today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHgbN_b6lk Virginia Tupper NB, Canada
Re: [IceHorses] My Spiritual Journey with Horses
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM, susan cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now you can dismiss me as a flake! > OK, can't help but ask -- corn flake or frosted flake? LOL, sorry, that was so duh anyways--what's the aroma oil for? You or the horses? Do you let them sniff it or do you rub it on them? V
Re: [IceHorses] Back from the trail
On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM, Anna Hopkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It could > also be that Alex let her speed up a bit when coming back, not > thinking much about it until she got too fast, then Alex got her > adrenaline up (maybe a little scared) which got Gat scared so she > wanted to get back to her herd and the race is on! > I think you're right on this. Alex loves to canter and the first time she went out she cantered home, when she told me that I told not to do that or Gat will want to do it all the time, so the second time out Gat did gallop home when Alex didn't want to. Anyways--they went out and about today and Gat didn't run away with her but she did have a snappy walk home. I uploaded a video of them taken around the house. V
