Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
--- Anna Hopkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since this type of riding seems to stem from the show/evaluation world, I would like to see that incorporated into the term. you just said it ...evaluation style(ES)riding... Double A Tack Shop, Inc 796 Main Rd Holden, Maine 04429 207-843-6563 Open Tues-Sat 10am-6pm
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On 3/30/08, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/03/2008, Renee Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I think we need to come up with a different term other than traditional riding when talking about what is currently done. I agree. Wanda I agree too. Could it be called european style riding? But that would include Mic in Wales and Sue in UK who dont seem to go along those lines. You could say european minus UK style riding or german influenced riding. Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On 3/30/08, Wanda Lauscher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30/03/2008, Renee Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I think we need to come up with a different term other than traditional riding when talking about what is currently done. I agree. Since this type of riding seems to stem from the show/evaluation world, I would like to see that incorporated into the term. Maybe something like 'show style riding/training'. Or maybe we can think of something that would be descriptive or specific like TW people using the term 'Big Lick' . I hate using the term 'Icelandic' in the terminology. I'm sure that there are many native Icelandic people that we are unfairly labeling and alienating. People that are using gentle training methods and are open to learning about saddle fit etc. -- Anna Southern Ohio
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Maybe something like 'show style riding/training'. Or maybe we can think of something that would be descriptive or specific like TW people using the term 'Big Lick' . I hate using the term 'Icelandic' in the terminology. I'm sure that there are many native Icelandic people that we are unfairly labeling and alienating. People that are using gentle training methods and are open to learning about saddle fit etc. I agree, Anna, and think that's a good term to use Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:01:45 -0400, you wrote: Maybe something like 'show style riding/training' Good one, Anna. Calling it Icelandic-style has been one thing that has really put me off over the years. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Or maybe we can think of something that would be descriptive or specific like TW people using the term 'Big Lick' . I hate using the term 'Icelandic' in the terminology. yes you could compare it to bell boot style riding but some might use bell boots for a good reason, boots that arent weighted? Actually, the exaggerated front end action in a show icelandic is no different than exaggerating the action in a walking horse thru weighted shoes. they do it with weighted boots on icelandics. And big lick is derived from the descriptive name of the sound it makes when the high action front feet hit the ground in a loud striking sound. In the country they call this loud hitting sound a big lick. like splitting logs give it a big lick or when a horse was really gaiting smooth and lifting those front legs naturally, they would say he went by hitting a big lick or you should see him hit a lick. It wasnt a derogatory terminology til you added the padded shoes and soring. So i think you could start calling it big lick icelandic show style riding and then when people actually realize what it means it could be referred to as icelandic big lick showing. Because I know when the action is that high, it makes a loud sound when they hit hard ground in a show ring, a big lick sound, no different at all than the sound of a big lick in a walking horse show. they go by and you hear the big lick when the front feet hit whop whop whop whop. a big lick. Its not different in icelandic showing. not one iota difference at all. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
RE: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Since this type of riding seems to stem from the show/evaluation world, I would like to see that incorporated into the term. Maybe something like 'show style riding/training'. I think show style is the key too. I don't like putting German or European in the description either, since we find the bad style creeping into the USA, and because there are good German riders and good European riders. As I've said before, the two people that I first met in this breed were Anneliese Virro and Christine Schwartz, coincidentally both Germans now living in North America, and both gave me great impressions of how to go about training these horses gently and humanely. Show style isn't enough though - we'd have to include something breed specific, since Icelandic showing is typically nothing like Arabs, w/p, hunters or dressage...and that gets us back to using the breed name, Icelandic. How would we get around that, without causing more confusion? Or maybe we can think of something that would be descriptive or specific like TW people using the term 'Big Lick' . I've always thought of them as Chin Hitters since the ridiculously manipulated knee action looks like that's the goal. I hate using the term 'Icelandic' in the terminology. I'm sure that there are many native Icelandic people that we are unfairly labeling and alienating. People that are using gentle training methods and are open to learning about saddle fit etc. That's likely true, but on the other hand, the HORSES do have Icelandic in their breed name, and I don't think we plan to rename the breed. We often talk about Arabs, Peruvians, Anglos (Anglo-Arabs) etc., without fear of people in those areas/countries taking offense, or without implying a compliment to the entire country, depending on the context. I don't see any need to be overly sensitive about the Icelandic nationality. I think we talk about the HORSES on this list. Wanda is 100% Icelandic by birth, and we all know we're not talking about her when we talk about horses - good or bad. (Wanda, are you goey?) I just wrote about my Boston in an earlier post today. She was a dog who was born and died in NC, but the city name just happens to be part of her breed name. I loved her dearly, but I have no illusions about my relationship with her implying anything, good or bad, about the city. Why should we be unduly cautious about using the word Icelandic when talking about these horses? Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1350 - Release Date: 3/30/2008 12:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 07:28:38AM -0500, Janice McDonald wrote: Anyway, I think we need to come up with a different term other than traditional riding when talking about what is currently done. I agree too. Could it be called european style riding? But that would include Mic in Wales and Sue in UK who dont seem to go along those lines. You could say european minus UK style riding or german influenced riding. i think using nationalistic terms is silly, since there will never be a nation of horse people who think or ride alike. perhaps we should use the existing english term big lick to describe hyper-ventroflexion and the use of artificial aids to increase foot lift. --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Good one, Anna. Calling it Icelandic-style has been one thing that has really put me off over the years. The people from Iceland are Icelanders. I've never heard anyone call it Icelander-style. The horses have the descriptive adjective Icelandic in their breed name. Unless we change the name of the breed, I don't see how to make a clearly defining term that won't insult someone. No other breed is shown the same way as we see Icelandic's so how can you clarify it as the unique style we see in the World Championships, at Landsmott, etc. We're not talking about QH horse style showing, or Arab showing, or dressage showing, and it's not even the same Saddlebred or TWH showing...and Saddlebreds and TWH ARE at least shown in versatility classes. We ARE talking about the way the official international and national Icelandic breed associations promote. As long as the international and national breed associations promote this type of riding, and no other type of riding, it IS Icelandic style to me. The only generic name I can think of would be Five-Gaited Show Style Riding. I don't think there's any such thing as a five-gaited horse, and I think the forced gaited is at the core of what we see. And, the only other breed people that use the term five-gaited are the Saddlebred people, and frankly, I don't like the way they show either. It's all about force and flash. When we go back in history to the 1960's, don't we know that the Germans who imported the first Icelandic's turned to American Saddlebred trainers for help, right in the heyday of Big Lick escalation. Isn't that the common thread - the forced-gait style of riding, that isn't practical and isn't natural, but is all about flash in the show ring? How about five-gaited style or maybe better, Forced-Gait Show Style Riding. It wouldn't bother me at all to include any and all nationalities and breeds that ridie that way. That takes ALL human nationalities out of the picture, and would include only the guilty parties, wherever they live, wherever they were born, and whatever breed they ride. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1350 - Release Date: 3/30/2008 12:32 PM IceHorses Community for Photos and Videos: http://kickapps.com/icehorses The greatest enemy of the truth very often is not the lie- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ~ Arthur Schopenhauer [] Lee Ziegler http://leeziegler.com [] Liz Graves http://lizgraves.com [] Lee's Book Easy Gaited Horses http://tinyurl.com/7vyjo [] IceHorses Map http://www.frappr.com/IceHorses Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IceHorses/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti: How about five-gaited style or maybe better, Forced-Gait Show Style Riding. I like the show style better. Five-gaited style makes you think everything is ok when you ride them four-gaited but it goes bad when you start riding them five-gaited. And I don't think forcing the gait is the only problem with this style of riding. Krisse
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 09:18:13PM +0300, Skise wrote: I like the show style better. Five-gaited style makes you think everything is ok when you ride them four-gaited but it goes bad when you start riding them five-gaited. And I don't think forcing the gait is the only problem with this style of riding. i don't really like the term show style because the fashions at shows are so variable and change so much over timeisn't there now a walker show movement for flat-shod horses to show their natural gaits? --vicka
RE: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
I like the show style better. Five-gaited style makes you think everything is ok when you ride them four-gaited but it goes bad when you start riding them five-gaited. And I don't think forcing the gait is the only problem with this style of riding. But suppose a new person shows up on the list, as happens all the time. How would they know when we say, show style riding that we aren't talking about western pleasure riding, or hunt-seat riding, low level dressage, or a more natural type of gaited horse showing? My daughter used to show some, but she never rode even vaguely like what we're talking about. It's too vague to have any meaning. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED] No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.1/1350 - Release Date: 3/30/2008 12:32 PM
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
But suppose a new person shows up on the list, as happens all the time. How would they know when we say, show style riding that we aren't talking about western pleasure riding, or hunt-seat riding, low level dressage, or a more natural type of gaited horse showing? I think that since we are a list focused on Icelandics, this would be self explanatory and if there is confusion from some new folks then we can clear it up - there is always a little confusion when someone jumps in the middle of on going conversations - and this group is good about clarifying -- Laree in NC Doppa Mura Simon, Sadie and Sam (the S gang) Yet when all the books have been read and reread, it boils down to the horse, his human companion, and what goes on between them. - William Farley
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On 30/03/2008, Renee Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway, I think we need to come up with a different term other than traditional riding when talking about what is currently done. I agree. Wanda
[IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Has anyone ever seen an icelandic-style rider / trainer, or a professional / certified / holar / FT trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox trot? or a running walk? Yes - but not on purpose. OK, there appears to be a lack of knowledge of gaits and gaitedness and how to get natural gaits. That is a big problem. A problem for the horse, and a problem for them as trainers and teachers, and a problem for the people they are teaching. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Judy Ryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti: Has anyone ever seen an icelandic-style rider / trainer, or a professional / certified / holar / FT trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox trot? or a running walk? Yes - but not on purpose. I haven't seen it but I've heard stories ;-) Last summer in Sweden I rode a horse that did both fox trot and running walk and anything more lateral was not really natural for her (in four days I rode her she never once tölted). I commented about that to her owner (who trains horses and riders and competes with her own horses) and she asked what FT and RW were. And when I explained she said that yes, when competing with that mare they let her tölt get quite diagonal because that's more natural to her and she is more relaxed then (which means she gets better marks) but that it's a very fine line to keep her gait close enough to tölt (and by the way I don't think they care much if tölt in slower tempo is saddle rack rather than rack) so the marks don't get worse because her tölt is too trotty. Krisse
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
trainer ever put an Icelandic Horse into a fox trot? or a running walk? Yes - but not on purpose. I haven't seen it but I've heard stories ;-) Last summer in Sweden I rode a horse that did both fox trot and running walk and anything more lateral was not really natural for her (in four days I rode her she never once tolted). I commented about that to her owner (who trains horses and riders and competes with her own horses) and she asked what FT and RW were. And when I explained she said that yes, when competing with that mare they let her tolt get quite diagonal because that's more natural to her and she is more relaxed then (which means she gets better marks) but that it's a very fine line to keep her gait close enough to tolt (and by the way I don't think they care much if tolt in slower tempo is saddle rack rather than rack) so the marks don't get worse because her tolt is too trotty. but they did differentiate, correct Krisse? I mean, they knew the difference and did not refer to all soft gaits as tolt, right? Janice-- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:05:50 -0700, you wrote: OK, there appears to be a lack of knowledge of gaits and gaitedness and how to get natural gaits. And also - most so-called Icelandic-style trainers are simply not interested in getting any gait other than walk, trot, canter, tolt and flying pace. Anything else is faulty. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
if they know they difference, but still call it tolt, i wonder why?? Is it because they dont want to admit a horse does any gait but a tolt (rack) or is it like Vicka says, to them, every soft gait is called tolt? and then how do you explain all those names, skeith tolt brokk tolt, etc. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:13:25 -0500, you wrote: every soft gait is called tolt I think that's the explanation - everything is a variation of tolt, hence brokk tolt (trotty tolt - fox trot) and skeith tolt (pacey tolt - stepping pace etc). Looked at like that, you can see why the other gaits could be considered somehow less than true tolt. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk --- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Re: [IceHorses] Natural Gaits and Icelandic-style Trainers
Those we haven't imported, because it's just pacy tölt and trotty tölt and we do have own words for pace and trot. But I think they tell the whole story, it may be very lateral or very diagonal but it's still some kind of tölt (untill it's lateral enough to be called pace or diagonal enough to be called trot). Of course they also imply that there is just tölt somewhere in between which is what the gait should be. Here's the problem... that is assuming tolt is the middle of a gait spectrum, and it isn't. You have a trotty tolt, tolt, and a pacey tolt. very limiting as there is no room for running walk which IS the middle of the gait spectrum. But the gait spectrum is not like a reostat or a volume control, or a slider. Progression is not sliding up and down the gait spectrum. There are several characteristics to each gait that do not lend the gait spectrum to a reostat-like mechanism. Check it out: tolt is one foot / two foot support how can we have a trotty tolt? What would it look like in one-foot / two-foot support? Or do they really mean that a trotty tolt is a trotty saddle rack? If so... is it? If so, how so? How about this: If we base the whole gait spectrum and gait chart on fox trot. Let's make the fox trot the middle of the gait spectrum... because well, there's a whole lotta fox trotters out there and lots of gaited horses fox trot, so it's an arbitrary choice. (Tongue in cheek): Then we make fox trot the perfect gait and tolt is an aberation because it's a ventroflexed gait. It's hollow, and it has weird pick up timing... very odd, no other gaits have that type of pick up and set down; it must be faulty. Let's call it a triple faulty fox trot. OK? The icelandic-style wording and concept of gaits isn't advanced enough to have room for all that is. What happens in other languages when they do not have a word to use for a new item? They assume and integrate the English word, which is what we are doing here. It's only logical since we are leading the way in gait information. Judy http://iceryder.net http://clickryder.com
