Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:15:26 -, you wrote: Maybe not in US, but you know, here in Europe, Warmbloods are the domestic breed. So for a long time, these were the horses all riders used. Our neighbours have half a dozen Warmbloods that are used mainly for trail riding (parents and 5 kids), plus a bit of low key local level dressage and jumping, bit of hunting in the winter etc. Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
Otherwise that willing and luke-warmish disposition is perfect for pleasure riding. Good point, Lynn. Of the handful ( a dozen maybe?) of Warmbloods I've been around, all had that pleasing pleasant temperment. One local woman rides out with us from time to time on a huge Art Decco gelding. He couldn't be a better trail horse. He has a wonderful expression, ears perked foreward with interest, soft kind eye and he uses his body beautifully on the steep trails. Our grandaughter bought a cheap $10,000 colt and brought him along for several years until she sold him recently for the reduced price of $25,000. He was quiet, mannerly and a delight to be around. They're just too expensive and, for me, too big to choose for use primarily as a trail horse. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
I don't see that being a pleasure or distance horse constitutes an exception to warmblood breed standards. I don't want to be out on the trail and have to turn around and double back on a 17H horse with a back a mile long if I happen to find a tree down on a narrow trail that just happens to be on the edge of a cliff. I don't want to have to detour off the trail into thick, uncleared woods on such a horse, if there's an unexpected obstacle in the way, or a bridge out, whatever. My Sunny was warmblood-sized (16.2H and 1300 pounds in his prime, but of QH-build) and as much as I loved him, and as sensible as he typically was on the trail, his bulk wasn't any help on the trail. I want a horse that I can actually maneuver, and just as it takes more room to turn an 18-wheeler than a Honda Civic, a 14H-or-under horse is going to be easier to turn around. I'm not so sure that warmblood size is really an advantage in dressage, it probably is somewhat in jumpers...but on the trail, I'm sure that smaller horses have many advantages. Just because someone COULD use an 18-wheeler for their daily commute-to-office-work vehicle, doesn't mean that many people want to. :) Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
The health issue you mentioned might be the simple problem of using them too early, too hard. I think EPSM is more common in warmbloods than in the general population. I don't know THAT many warmbloods, but I know two who have had it, as well as some other rather odd illnesses. Illnesses aren't generally caused from horses being started too early. And, if you've read Dr. Deb's conformation books, you'll know that large horses were bred to pull, and really aren't built to carry weight - just carrying their own weight stresses their frames. That's simple physics, although starting them too early would likely make it worse. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
2008/6/10 Robyn Hood [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So I ask again; Does anyone know of evaluations from other breeds or disciplines that we can look at? I'll look around today, perhaps there is something online we can study. Wanda
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
One of the things he liked to talk about was breed standards. He would say something like Did you ever read these breed descriptions? They all say something about fine heads, wide set eyes, small ears, straight legs, good feet. Then he'd sort of snort and say, So who would write a breed standard calling for poor feet or crooked legs? Exactly, and I've said that very thing in years past on this subject. There is so much that's vague in the Icelandic breeding standard that it's meaningless in so many places. If it's not specific, then it's not worth much to people. Fifty pages of vagueness is worth about as much to me as 5 pages of vagueness, or 500 pages, for that matter. What troubles me in this standard is that leg joints are only weighted at 3% - the same percentage as heads get. So, maybe by sheer omission, we ARE calling for crooked legs in this breed. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
But you see, what I don't get at breeding evaluations is things like this - I had a mare judged a few years ago and she got the comment, as a negative, thin face , though positives were her eye size, ear set and expression, ending up with a 7.5 overall for her head. Not higher because of the thin face. What is the difference between a thin and a fine head? I don't know, and I'm a native English speaker! Of course it doesn't make any difference to her as a riding horse whether her face is thin or fine, or what her breeding score is, but this sort of thing does NOT inspire confidence in the whole breeding evaluation process. Mic, this is getting downright scary...one more post that I can't find one thing to nitpick! :) That's the part that worries me - the whole process is just too darned vague and subjective, and not enough weight is placed on the horse's basic structures. I seriously doubt that mare ever went lame because she had a thin face, nor would she have gaited poorly if she'd had a coarse head. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
It is all well and good that Liz Graves has taught you what to look for. But how does that help the breed as a whole. Liz does not have the capacity to look at all Icelandic breeding stock. So I ask again; Does anyone know of evaluations from other breeds or disciplines that we can look at? You seem to be stuck on maintaining an evaluation system. I'm not. I'll turn the tables on you. What do YOU suggest? Several times you've said you think the system is flawed, but I haven't heard any suggestions from you. I've been pretty direct with my comments. I think this system is so flawed that the breed would be better off with no system. A bad system is worse than no system, because with no system, motivated people will be forced to take control of their breeding, IF they care. (If they don't care, there's not much we can do anyway.) In this system, many passive people feel they are doing the right thing by blindly following a bad system. And since those who question in this breed have usually be discouraged (bullied?) into not questioning things, we've ended up with a lot of passive breeders in this breed. Most breeds don't have an evaluation system, and I don't see them suffering any more than this breed seems to be suffering. If I wasn't clear in my last posts: we need to empower ourselves. Gaits are gaits. Conformation (as related to soundness, usefulness and gaits) is conformation. Only a tiny percentage of conformation is breed-specific. Liz is just one of many resources we can use, and she happens to be the most relevant one I've found since I started asking questions that I couldn't get answered within this breed. Unlike most inside this breed's organization, she tries to disperse information, to educate people to take care of their own horses. There has been an isolationism inside this breed for way too long. Horsemanship is not a passive endeavor. It takes work and time. It takes education. Breeding and conformation are a couple of segments of horsemanship, and no one can hand us a few numbers for our horses and expect that to tell the whole story. There are many, many ways to get this education, and I think that the only way to gain true perspective is to learn from many sources - getting stuck in the Icelander-Only-Ways is very, very limiting, even dangerous. To many people in this breed expect to passively pay someone to look at their horses and assign numbers to them...virtually all of these folks PAY someone to ride their horses for them. Then people can't explain the numbers Go figure... Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
So I ask again; Does anyone know of evaluations from other breeds or disciplines that we can look at? I'll look around today, perhaps there is something online we can study. I've looked, and I know that most breeds don't have evaluation systems. I have been very interested in what I've been reading for the Colonial Spanish Horse registry. Those horses had to be found in the wild, many (most?) DNA tested, and they have been visually inspected for type adherence. Even in this breed - or more accurately, this collection of breeds with the same ancestry - there are no plans to have each new horse evaluated. Someone asked that recently, and I gather they realize that's just not feasible. Remember, the Bankers and the other CSM (Colonial Spanish Mustangs) have tiny numbers - only 120 Bankers, and I'm not sure how many CS total in all the strains - maybe under 1000? For such a tiny number of horses, there are a lot of very credible experts watching these horses very carefully, including a couple of well-known veterinary geneticists that many of us may have heard of. This is a unique opportunity for me to learn about preserving a rare genetic pool that hasn't been pampered with by humans for 500 years, and I'm excited to be looking at still another new perspective of breeding and genetics. Horsemanship is indeed a journey. I wish I had three lifetimes to devote to it. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:04:50 -0400, you wrote: I've looked, and I know that most breeds don't have evaluation systems. Here's something non-breed-specific, but interesting: http://www.bef.co.uk/Downloads/YHE%202006%20Recreational%20HP%20Pilot%20Section.pdf One for Knabstruppers (a Danish spotted breed): http://www.ukknabstruppergrading.org.uk/KNN%20Knabstrupper%20Performance%20Assessment.htm Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
Here is a first prize stallion used in Finland, with 8,0 for proportions. My goodness, I hope that's just a bad picture of him, because I don't care for the way he looks at all in that picture. I suspect that a lot of what I don't like is just camera angle though, but I'm not sure what you wanted me to see in this picture. I can't tell anything about the length of his back, his shoulder and hip angles. I don't know why people take stallion pictures from odd angles. Maybe this one is just a casual snapshot, but I don't see many formal shots of stallions taken from good angles either. The best way to photograph horses for conformation analysis is to take pictures square-on to the camera from all sides. Granted, as someone pointed out earlier, not all horses live to be camera models, but at least the pictures that Laree, for example, sent in were from good viewing angles. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
--- Karen Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've looked, and I know that most breeds don't have evaluation systems. I've seen some evaluations for some of the European Warmbloods that are done at liberty, so no interference from handling! Granted, a lot of gaited horses don't trot at liberty, but basic conformation can be gleaned from that. Susan in NV read my blog to see why I ride my horse in pink: http://desertduty.blogspot.com/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:31:33 -0700, you wrote: They are more likely IMHO to use locality and price as the main factors. Or colour! (frightening, isn't it? - when we had a blue dun stallion here we had someone wanting to use him desperately, even though he was her mare's half brother - because he was close and she s wanted a pwiddy widdle dun baybee) Mic Mic (Michelle) Rushen --- Solva Icelandic Horses and DeMeulenkamp Sweet Itch Rugs: www.solva-icelandics.co.uk ---
RE: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of icnewb Most of the breed organizations that hold evaluation are called approvals or inspections. Here are few examples in North America. Each have their own rules and regulations but generally follow the same pattern ISR/Oldenburg NAOldenburg Horse Breeders Society American Hanoverian Society America Holsteiner Horse Association American Trakehner Association Rheinland-Pfalz-Saar Dutch Warmblood Studbook in North America Kayla - Thanks for the info Kayla. Do you know if the results are public and itemized? Is there a place we can see the rules or scoring system used for these inspections? Phil
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Jun 11, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Robyn Hood wrote: Thanks for the info Kayla. Do you know if the results are public and itemized? Is there a place we can see the rules or scoring system used for these inspections? Phil Here's the Hanoverian info: http://www.hanoverian.org/tour/inspection.shtml Note that the inspections and tests are not merely numbers, but carry breeding eligibility in the case of stallions. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
RE: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Lynn Kinsky Here's the Hanoverian info: http://www.hanoverian.org/tour/inspection.shtml Note that the inspections and tests are not merely numbers, but carry breeding eligibility in the case of stallions. Thanks Lynn Am I missing the results or description of what is actually inspected? This link seems to just have an overview and application forms. I can find sites with info about the various breed inspections but so far have not found one with details of what is inspected, the details of how the marks are arrived at or anything similar. Nor can I find a page that lists the results of any such event. I realize that for some breeds you can only register offspring from breeding horses that pass the inspection but still would like to see an itemized results fro to understand the criteria used. Phil
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
Am I missing the results or description of what is actually inspected? This link seems to just have an overview and application forms. http://www.hanoverian.org/mares/hanomare.shtml scores: http://www.hanoverian.org/mares/mare_stats.shtml http://www.hanoverian.org/Stallions/100-Day.shtml Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
In fact, I know people who are afraid to ride their warmbloods out on the trail! That's a fact. Our local equine vet, who lives just up the road from us, is married to a well known dressage rider/trainer who makes an annual shopping trip to Europe. They have a huge financial investment in their horses and there is no way in the world they are going to go out on trail. He has a real hard time understanding the kind of riding we do. And, I confess we have more than a little trouble understanding the life of a horse that never steps outside a dressage court. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:08 PM, Karen Thomas wrote: Let's think about it for a minute though. Most warmbloods are used for sport horses - jumpers or dressage. I believe the purpose of most of their evaluations is to show their suitablity as sport horses. I can't think of anyone who purposely went out and bought a warmblood to be a pleasure horse, and I don't think they are prime candidates for CTR or endurance, and I've never heard of a warmblood cutting horse class. :) In fact, I know people who are afraid to ride their warmbloods out on the trail! OTOH, those warmbloods that don't make the cut as breeding stallions or six figure Olympic hopefuls wind up somewhere, and not all are pulling carriages. There was an 18 hh (unbranded) Hanoverian at our NATRC ride this weekend and he had good recoveries and took very good care of his rider. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
suffering. ... On this list how many times has it been mentioned that breeds like TWH of today are not what they used to be? How they are totally different types from the old stock. they are bred to be pacey so that when they put the big padded shoes on they will square up and gait smooth. Thats what they mean when they say the smooth natural gait of the TWH is being systematically bred out of existence. because who does everyone want to breed to? The WGC stallion. The pacey one in big shoes. Also they have bred for a more refined head, sound familiar? But that head is attached to something! The foundation horse of the twh breed, Allen F1, was about the homeliest horse you could ever see, very very jug headed, big walker spanish nose and head. And he was said to be homozygous for his smooth natural gait, passing it on to all his offspring, who passed it on to their offspring, and a breed was born. So gee, now they are breeding away from Allen F1's homely head and dull drab faded black color. Now you hardly ever see more than two or three naturally barefoot gaited walkers on a huge ride of 2-300 horses! Do we icelandic people want to see things go this route? History is repeating itself and we yell our heads off about it and nobody listens! Look who they just brought in for a training seminar in Georgia, Walter Feldman, A german who studied the way gaited horse trainers trained SADDLEBREDS for godssakes. They are the onlty breed i know of with gait more forced than walkers. In fact i would say they are about the worst offenders at forcing gait there is. So people love to point fingers and say oh, forcing unnatural gait was started in icelandics by americans. But I think it began with Walter Feldman, and now he is being looked at as a gait hero in the icelandic community! Might as well get some TWH trainers in to help finish the breed off completely... and those weighted boots? They look stupid. Might as well just go with the action chains walker trainers use, they weigh less anyway and dont stand out so glaring like those white boots.. Janice -- even good horses have bad days sometimes.
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
OTOH, those warmbloods that don't make the cut as breeding stallions or six figure Olympic hopefuls wind up somewhere, and not all are pulling carriages. There was an 18 hh (unbranded) Hanoverian at our NATRC ride this weekend and he had good recoveries and took very good care of his rider. Yes, but the topic here was breed standards, not the exceptions to the breed. I have an Arab who did remarkably well in hunters when there was a strong prejudice against the breed in that sport. We also have a supposed-to-be western pleasure App that couldn't jog if his life depended on it...but he made a nice low-mid level dressage horse, and was also a pretty decent hunter. There are always exceptions, and as I said before, I don't think too many people buy warmbloods to be pleasure horses. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
On Jun 11, 2008, at 6:56 PM, Karen Thomas wrote: Yes, but the topic here was breed standards, not the exceptions to the breed. I have an Arab who did remarkably well in hunters when there was a strong prejudice against the breed in that sport. We also have a supposed-to-be western pleasure App that couldn't jog if his life depended on it...but he made a nice low-mid level dressage horse, and was also a pretty decent hunter. There are always exceptions, and as I said before, I don't think too many people buy warmbloods to be pleasure horses. Karen Thomas, NC I don't see that being a pleasure or distance horse constitutes an exception to warmblood breed standards. Their height might be a negative to many people (altho many riders LIKE big horses and mules), but mainly they are priced out of the pleasure riders league (http://www.warmbloods-for-sale.com/Hanoverian.asp) because they can also succeed in big prize and status sports like eventing, jumping, and international level dressage. Otherwise that willing and luke-warmish disposition is perfect for pleasure riding. Lynn Kinsky, Santa Ynez, CA ranch: http://www.silcom.com/~lkinsky/ http://members.dslextreme.com/users/napha/HighPoint/
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
We once had an old cowboy farrier - wonderful guy. He actually self published a book on hoof care and shoeing. He'd worked on some of the big old time Western cattle ranches and he'd spent a lot of time alone with a horse - thinking. One of the things he liked to talk about was breed standards. He would say something like Did you ever read these breed descriptions? They all say something about fine heads, wide set eyes, small ears, straight legs, good feet. Then he'd sort of snort and say, So who would write a breed standard calling for poor feet or crooked legs? His point was that it is all very subjective. What I see as wide-set eyes in an Icelandic, might be close-set eyes in an Arab. Not to suggest that correct conformation is not basically the same goal from breed to breed, some of those descriptive ideals fine heads are pretty much breed specific. Nancy
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
you can breed whatever Icelandic you like, as there are a lot of breeders in Iceland who have their own imagination of what would be a perfect horse for them. And if you have a look at the confirmation marks, you can well see, that also heavier built horses get good marks, if the overall package is ok. Here's what the standard says about proportions: The horse should be full of splendour and presence. The legs should be long and the body light and cylindrical in shape with front, middle and hind sections approximately equal. The highest point at the withers should be higher than the highest point of the croup. It specifically says that the breed should be long legged and light-bodied, And, we know that leg joints (cow-hocks, sickle-hocks, toed-in, toed-out, etc.) aren't weighted very heavily. This specifically says we are to breed a more refined horse, and we shouldn't worry with the legs. I don't like that at all. These horses are supposed to be capable of carrying weight in the saddle. A light-bodied horse with bad legs isn't suitable for that but the math favors a light-bodied horse with a pretty head, mane and tail, with a long neck. Proportions are counted 10%, so a heavy horse would be hard-pressed to compete with a light-bodied horse in overall score. He can't make it up by having correct leg jointss, since that's only weighted 3%. Here are the scoring designations for proportions, which are still somewhat vague, but I have to admit are more specific than most of the categories : 9.5-10: - The horse should be full of splendour and presence. The legs should be long and the body light and cylindrical in shape with front, middle and hind sections approximately equal. The highest point at the withers should be higher than the highest point of the croup. 9.0: - Generally very beautiful. The legs are long and the body light and cylindrical in shape with good height at the withers. Only minor faults in proportions. 8.5: - A beautiful overall appearance. The legs are long and the body light and cylindrical in shape. Mares should not be croup high, and stallions should stand higher at the withers than at the croup. Only minor faults in proportions. 8.0: - A nice looking horse. - Good attributes can cancel out a few faults. 7.5: - Average proportions and harmony. - Good attributes can cancel out a few faults. 7.0: See description for the mark 6.5 and lower, but here the faults are less serious. 6.5 and lower: - The horse is low at the withers and therefore croup high.- The horse is heavy-set; with a deep chest, a heavy body (very round or flat-sided). - The legs are short. - The horse is short and stocky and/or very disproportionate in length, front, middle and hind sections. - The horse is disproportionate in the front and the back sections (width, depth) including the chest being too narrow (collapsed). Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
not true, they just don't want to select out the natural variation in the genpool. One of the reasons the horses are getting bigger today is better nutrion during the whole year. I believe that much of that starved small genetic potential should be overcome in one or two generations. Unless many Icelandic breeding horses are still getting poor nutrition, I'd think we'd be past that phase by now. I also think that an increase in height in humans (and in horses) probably is/was influenced by human breeding preferences. there has always been the lighter type with fine heads. Have a look at some of the old Kolkuosi mares f.e. These are of course not heads of Arabs, but beautiful, nice fine heads. I can look up for pictures, if you don't believe it. I'm sure there has always been some range of size and characteristics in the breed - there is in every breed. However, I don't believe that making a marginal occurrence into the main focus of the breed is a wise move. Many of you have probably heard of Dr. Phillip Sponenburg, a veterinarian who literally wrote the book on color genetics. Coincidentally, I've found out that he is an active supporter of the Colonial Spanish Mustangs, and the two Banker ponies that I'm getting are CS horses. I read an opinion of his recently on the subject of what traits to breed for, and what to ignore, in the preservation of this strain of mustangs, and the Banker ponies have always chosen their own breeding patterns. I'll see if I can find the post and quote it. Basically, he referred to the statistical bell curve of characteristics that occur in any breed. He pointed out that a few traits that might exist in, say, 10% of the population are neither something to be bred for or against. His reasoning is that they aren't something that will either harm the breed's genotype or become widespread in the breed. I suspect that fine heads in Icelandic's are marginal traits in much that way - it doesn't hurt that they provide some interesting diversity within the breed, but if we breed FOR them, then inevitably something else will be ignored. In computer science logic courses in college, we referred to those traits as don't care traits. I think this breed would be much better off if we'd be content to enjoy some of the random natural range in these don't care traits - traits like colors, manes, tails and head shapes. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Karen Thomas Proportions are counted 10%, so a heavy horse would be hard-pressed to compete with a light-bodied horse in overall score. He can't make it up by having correct leg jointss, since that's only weighted 3%. -- You conveniently miss that joints are a consideration in the Legs, quality section as well. It seems you would like to totally do away with evaluations. Would this not make matters worse? Would that not lead to people breeding with less consideration as to the quality of the horses? There is no denying that the evaluation system could and should be improved. Assuming you do not just want to do away with any evaluation or inspection system, specific suggestions of what to improve or how to make improvements would be more useful than pointing out only what you don't like. Perhaps there is another breed or discipline that has a method in place we can look at for inspiration. Phil
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
You conveniently miss that joints are a consideration in the Legs, quality section as well. No, I didn't conveniently miss that, Phil. I mentioned distinctly in several posts that I find it odd that the part of the legs that I consider most important, the JOINTS, are only judged 3%. I also went to the trouble to cut and paste the entire weighting formula, showing how the 40% is distributed. If you missed that in my posts, I'm sorry. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
Perhaps there is another breed or discipline that has a method in place we can look at for inspiration. I had to go back to this statement, Phil. How many of us have talked about all the good information we've learned from Liz Graves at her clinics? She was able to take the basics I've learned about conformation over the years, and take it to the next level for me - explaining how the small differences in good conformation define whether a horse will be three-gaited or gaited, and if he's gaited, what his range of gaits might be. It will take me a while longer to fully digest all Liz has exposed me to - she'll be back here this fall. While I was getting frustrated and bounced around with the lack of answers from the Icelandic sources, I found plenty of inspiration from Liz to keep me going for a while. Liz knows biomechanics, and she knows gaits, and she's very accessible for many people. And, if people can't make it to her clinics, she has a couple of videos available and some articles on her website. Karen Thomas, NC
RE: [IceHorses] Re: FIZO breeding (conformation) rules
-Original Message- From: IceHorses@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Karen Thomas You conveniently miss that joints are a consideration in the Legs, quality section as well. No, I didn't conveniently miss that, Phil. I mentioned distinctly in several posts that I find it odd that the part of the legs that I consider most important, the JOINTS, are only judged 3%. I also went to the trouble to cut and paste the entire weighting formula, showing how the 40% is distributed. If you missed that in my posts, I'm sorry. -- I know it does not matter to you but the 3%, as you say, is for the Legs, joints section. There is also a Legs, quality section that is worth 6%. The first notes from that section are for correct limbs and then strong joints. There may not be enough emphasis placed on the limbs for you or a number of list members but you don't have to try and make your point by ignoring what is there. -- *Karen wrote from a second post How many of us have talked about all the good information we've learned from Liz Graves at her clinics? -- It is all well and good that Liz Graves has taught you what to look for. But how does that help the breed as a whole. Liz does not have the capacity to look at all Icelandic breeding stock. So I ask again; Does anyone know of evaluations from other breeds or disciplines that we can look at? Phil
