RE: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
Again, welcome! What do you do with your Icelandics? Do you show, trail ride or do something else? I'd love to hear more? And we LOVE pictures...:) Karen Thomas, NC, USA Actually at the moment I don't have an horse. I had a 5-gaited gelding, former show horse, Fáfnir frá Akureyri for 8 years before I had to put him to sleep due to health problems at the age of 23. With him I did mostly trail riding. I was still studying when I had him and I decided not to get another one before I had a steady job somewhere (a bit difficult to constantly move around with a horse). After a while started thinking that I don't have time for a horse anyway and abandoned my plans to buy an icelandic. But unfortunately I fell in love with a 6 yo mare this summer and now she's coming here probably in September (they need her where she is now until they can ride the mares with foals again). :-D I don't have yet any pictures of Fjóla (vom Wittenmoor, German import) and nothing in my computer of Fafu since the old computer died a while ago... But I'll try to take some pictures of icelandics next week when I go to Swedish Lapland to ride. Krisse from Finland
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
--- Janice McDonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, running walk is in the center of the gait spectrum. How is that named? tolt. --vicka oh gosh Vicka, please PLEASE post that to the world group, a lot of people there think if a horse does a to-die-for runningwalk it should be eaten for dinner... Janice-- There are a lot of breeders on that list, and a wonderful runningwalk is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I want a good clear tolt/rack...in my Icelandics, now if they have other easy gaits, I would be fine riding them, but it is not what I am breeding for, and I do not thing its what they are wanting in evauls or competitions. I am sure that the TWH people do not breed for tolt/rackthey want a running walk Skye Fire Island Farms Breeding Quality Icelandic Trail Horses Certified Farrier Services 'Natural Balance' Shoeing and Trimming. Founder, Navicular options for your horse. 808-640-6080
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
a wonderful runningwalk is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I want a good clear tolt/rack...in my Icelandics, now if they have other easy gaits, I would be fine riding them, but it is not what I am breeding for, and I do not thing its what they are wanting in evauls or competitions. I am sure that the TWH people do not breed for tolt/rackthey want a running walk but Skye, this is kinda my point. How can breeders breed for something so vaguely defined, If it is a spectrum of all the gaits them what are you breeding for exactly... as for TWH people, the show people breed for pace and then nail heavy big shoes on to square it up in the show ring. As for breeders in the real world they breed for running walk but the signature gait of the twh has been bred nearly into extinction by show people. (everyone wants to breed to a WGC stallion ya know, only guess what, they don't gait without devices anymore...) so lucky breeders get easy gaits of all kinds. most get some gaited and a lot of pacey offspring. They get pacey offspring, i would say at least 50-75% off two extremely well gaited, naturally gaited parents. Thats how ruined the gait is in that breed. Thats why i pay attention when people who breed gaited horses talk about it. because I am EXTREMELY familiar with what happens if you start breeding for show gait. so when you say you breed for tolt, exactly what do you breed for. Rack? Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
RE: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
There are a lot of breeders on that list, and a wonderful runningwalk is not what they, or I for that matter are breeding for. I want a good clear tolt/rack... If the breeders can't define either one, how the heck do they know what they want? And even the USIHC says the tolt is similar to a running walk. Karen Thomas, NC [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
that's the *best* tolt, is the exact four-beat midpoint between trot and pace, is how i have been given to understand it. but if some tolt is a little lateral or diagonal, and goes one-two--thre-four, this is just not quite as perfect a tolt, but still comes under the term. (i had a long conversation about this yesterday with a different native Icelandic speaker...) First, my apologies to any Icelandic speakers on the list for what I'm about to say. My frustration is with Vicka, not with Icelanders as a whole... Well, Vicka, one native Icelandic speaker certainly trumps all of us and all of the dumb Americans who've studied gaits for years and years... and yes, that was very sarcastic. There are people on this list who really, genuinely want to learn. You've had this horse for 6-8 months, your first gaited horse, your first Icelandic. There are people on this list who have had horses for 30-50 YEARS! Some have had gaited horses almost that long. There are at least a million other gaited horses in the USA, and maybe 2,000-3000 in the USA. You're one of the newest to horses on this list, newest to Icelandics, yet you argue more than anyone - and mostly you are arguing about language trivia, nothing that matters to the horses that I can see. You are not getting our point, at least not mine. This is not a list about the Icelandic LANGUAGE. It's not a list about semantics. It's a list about HORSES - Icelandic horses. Wonderful, living, breathing creatures. Karen Thomas, NC
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 12:59:27PM -0700, Judy Ryder wrote: We know that Tolt is a rack (1 foot / 2 foot support); that's obvious; that's what they show and judge in their evaluations for tolt, tolt competitions, icetolt, etc. that's obvious from the show world. you don't know what they call the gait seen in the field or under a kid's horse or out on the trail. What we don't know is what they call the 2 foot / 3 foot support gait of saddle rack which the Icelandic Horse also does. Is that how they define slow tolt? or does slow tolt also mean a 1 foot / 2 foot support gait that is slower than tolt / rack? they just call it tolt; lacking the photos, i don't think they consider the footfall significant (at least not linguistically so); slow tolt is measured by speed afaict. (and i've been working on it for some time under my icelandic instructor.) It's kind of a flawed system as it does not leave room for any other easy gaits between trot and pace! no, it merely describes all of them, as english blue describes colors from robin's-egg to royal to navy. For example, running walk is in the center of the gait spectrum. How is that named? tolt. --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
For example, running walk is in the center of the gait spectrum. How is that named? tolt. --vicka oh gosh Vicka, please PLEASE post that to the world group, a lot of people there think if a horse does a to-die-for runningwalk it should be eaten for dinner... Janice-- yipie tie yie yo
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
For example, running walk is in the center of the gait spectrum. How is that named? tolt. Incorrectly, the Icelanders believe tolt is in the middle. It isn't. The running walk is the center of the gait spectrum; it is not a tolt. Tolt is a lateral gait. Vicka, you are way out of your league in this discussion. I have a challenge for you, however. I would like you to join the gaitedhorse list (you can go on no-mail if you so choose, because the list has lots of mail and lots of good discussions about gait and horsemanship), and each time you would like to mention tolt on this list, you also post the same message to the gaitedhorse list. Otherwise, just be still, be quiet, listen, and learn about gaits. Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
I don't know what tölt means in Iceland, but here in Finland (where the only breed of gaited horses is icelandics) all the soft gaits really are called tölt, but that doesn't mean they are all considered good tölt. The only acceptable tölt is clear four-beat, any variations to pacy or trotty side are considered faulty. But I haven't seen/heard anyone here differentiate between what I think is called rack/saddle rack and say the other is correct tölt and the other is not. Haven't really thought is before but I think many horses are doing saddle rack when moving slower and rack when moving faster? Krisse
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
I don't know what tölt means in Iceland, but here in Finland (where the only breed of gaited horses is icelandics) all the soft gaits really are called tölt, but that doesn't mean they are all considered good tölt. The only acceptable tölt is clear four-beat, any variations to pacy or trotty side are considered faulty. But I haven't seen/heard anyone here differentiate between what I think is called rack/saddle rack and say the other is correct tölt and the other is not. Haven't really thought is before but I think many horses are doing saddle rack when moving slower and rack when moving faster? Hi Krisse, Rack is a fast 1 foot / 2 foot support gait. Saddle rack is a 2 foot / 3 foot support gait. We know that Tolt is a rack (1 foot / 2 foot support); that's obvious; that's what they show and judge in their evaluations for tolt, tolt competitions, icetolt, etc. What we don't know is what they call the 2 foot / 3 foot support gait of saddle rack which the Icelandic Horse also does. Is that how they define slow tolt? or does slow tolt also mean a 1 foot / 2 foot support gait that is slower than tolt / rack? all the soft gaits really are called tölt, The only acceptable tölt is clear four-beat, any variations to pacy or trotty side It's kind of a flawed system as it does not leave room for any other easy gaits between trot and pace! For example, running walk is in the center of the gait spectrum. How is that named? Judy http://icehorses.net http://clickryder.com
RE: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
I don't know what tölt means in Iceland, but here in Finland (where the only breed of gaited horses is icelandics) all the soft gaits really are called tölt, but that doesn't mean they are all considered good tölt. The only acceptable tölt is clear four-beat, any variations to pacy or trotty side are considered faulty. Hi Skise - I don't remember you posting to the list before, so welcome! Yes, what you just described is what we hear within the traditional Icelandic community here too. And that's why we keep going on this debate. I DO agree that an easy four-beat gait SHOULD be the breeding goal. There's nothing at all wrong with that, as far as I can see. What I take issue with is with the people who try to force the horses who are inherently very pacey or very trotty - and we see plenty of them - into gaits that aren't easy for them. I don't think that should be faulty so much as accepted and dealt with as necessary for each individual horse. I DO think those gaits are faulty in breeding horses. But, if you've been reading the list for a while, you may have picked that up. :) And, btw, you do realize that the running walk is also an even, four-beat gait...? If you've only been around traditionally trained Icelandic's you may not be aware of that gait. It's a lovely gait, very smooth to ride and very easy for some horses to do - even for many Icelandic's. It's a wonderful gait for the trail. Haven't really thought is before but I think many horses are doing saddle rack when moving slower and rack when moving faster? It COULD be, and probably is true a good bit of the time, but the beat could be a perfectly even four-beat and be a flat walk which is sort of a slow running walk, or a running walk. And, a horse can be forced into a single-foot support phase slow tolt that isn't literally a saddle rack. Why do we care? Some folks don't, but a running walk is a gait that allows the horse to stretch out and relax his back nicely. It's easy for some horses, not so easy for other Icelandics. In the USA, a horse would NEVER be allowed to develop with the traditional training methods because the horse simply isn't allowed to use his head freely. I think that's a waste. Again, welcome! What do you do with your Icelandics? Do you show, trail ride or do something else? I'd love to hear more? And we LOVE pictures...:) Karen Thomas, NC, USA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
On Sat, Jun 30, 2007 at 03:24:08PM -, kim morton wrote: Ok, say we accept this premise, that we should use the Icelandic term tolt to mean all easy gaits. What if someone wants to import an Icelandic horse and wants to know *exactly* what gaits the horse is showing, how will we know? What if that is important to someone? I think it's important that we define gaits so that we are able to name the differences. i think in order to do that we need video and stop-frame technology. a picture's worth a thousand words in any language. I don't really buy that all Icelanders define tolt as all easy gaits. I heard Gudmar at the Equine Affaire telling the audience that tolt is an even 4 beat gait, one, two, three, four. How would that fit into this? that's the *best* tolt, is the exact four-beat midpoint between trot and pace, is how i have been given to understand it. but if some tolt is a little lateral or diagonal, and goes one-two--thre-four, this is just not quite as perfect a tolt, but still comes under the term. (i had a long conversation about this yesterday with a different native icelandic speaker...) --vicka
Re: [IceHorses] Tolt Definition
i dont see how you can just go by four clear beats four even beats etc. I tried for years. For one thing, a hard pace is four distinct beats if they are going fast and you mistake the two distinct patterns for one. So is a trot for that matter. I finally found a pattern in my jaspars stepping pace on a hard road, and if you know what I am talking about, it is EXACTLY like the beat in the song happy trails to you only more lively. sort of a one---pause--- twothreefour one--pause--twothreefour. But my stonewall saddleracks and when he goes down a hard packed road or pavement it sounds for all the world just as clear pocka pocka pocka pocka four beat as four beat can get. and I have had old timers behind me on the trail say your horse has about a square a four beat gait I have ever seen on a walking horse and he is saddle racking (slow tolt) and walking horse people generaly describe a clean four beat gait as a runningwalk. So whoever says a clean perfectly even 4 beat gait is a rack, then how can people say the same thing about a runningwalk?? there is just no way you can tell it by ear. maybe Liz graves can but she would be about it I would think since she is about a hundred years beyond anybody who knows anything about gait in the US, which actually puts the rest of the world to shame in gait knowlege... janice -- yipie tie yie yo
