Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Shakthi Kannan wrote: > The problem with some newbies is that life has been very smooth > (everything taken care) for them with lot of spoon-feeding that they > expect everybody to help them the same way. They haven't yet seen the > (harsh) realities of life. > > So, when they begin to face the real world with different > personalities (this list, for example), they are suddenly pushed to a > state where they find that people don't give them their doze of > spoon-feeding as how they are used to. So, they start to complain > about it. > > The smart newbies will accept that life is different out there as > compared to what they are used to, thank this list for educating them > (optional), improve their competence, and prove their valour with > their work. > I make a case for responding to two threads in one :-) Like the other one who asked which is the best IDE, most newcomers, perhaps because of our education system, expect an 'answer' (and only one correct answer) to each of their doubts. And they are put off when each one has a different 'answer - expressed in their own idiosyncratic ways. I think it takes a little time outside the cocoon of our education system to get used to the fact that there is no 'one right answer' to most problems in real life. A post lunch philosophical babble :-) regds, mano -- All generalizations are false ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi, --- On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: | why should fear prevent you from posting? When you are new you *will* | make mistakes - and hopefully get corrected and learn from it. If you | never post you will never make mistakes and will never learn anything. | The first time you bat in a cricket match, do you think that the bowler | is going to spoon feed you with slow full tosses because you are a | newbie? And if he did will you become a better batsman? \-- A very nice analogy. The problem with some newbies is that life has been very smooth (everything taken care) for them with lot of spoon-feeding that they expect everybody to help them the same way. They haven't yet seen the (harsh) realities of life. So, when they begin to face the real world with different personalities (this list, for example), they are suddenly pushed to a state where they find that people don't give them their doze of spoon-feeding as how they are used to. So, they start to complain about it. The smart newbies will accept that life is different out there as compared to what they are used to, thank this list for educating them (optional), improve their competence, and prove their valour with their work. SK -- Shakthi Kannan http://www.shakthimaan.com ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 18:17 +0530, Manoj Kumar wrote: >> but I'm just going to post this, so that someone might correct me if >> this is >> wrong. > > the above may be a bouncer, but I hope that you will face it rather than > complaining to the umpire that the bowler is being unfair ;-) and unfriendly :D -- Arun Khan A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Thu, 2011-07-14 at 18:17 +0530, Manoj Kumar wrote: > I have posted just one or two queries to this list. Genuinely > speaking, I > did get some answers but not though the solutions. And also some > *fear* and > a chance to get corrected before posting to a list. why should fear prevent you from posting? When you are new you *will* make mistakes - and hopefully get corrected and learn from it. If you never post you will never make mistakes and will never learn anything. The first time you bat in a cricket match, do you think that the bowler is going to spoon feed you with slow full tosses because you are a newbie? And if he did will you become a better batsman? > > I am not sure,even after going through the mailing list etiquettes, if > posting replies to two different posts in a same reply is right or > wrong, wrong - you should have posted on both. The general rule is that a post should contain precisely *one* issue and it is bad practice to amalgamate replies to more than one post in a single post. > but I'm just going to post this, so that someone might correct me if > this is > wrong. the above may be a bouncer, but I hope that you will face it rather than complaining to the umpire that the bowler is being unfair ;-) -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi all, First of all , I am thankful to all the members of this mailing list. Thanks to the experts who had already given the answers just when i needed so that i just needed to search my inbox. And thanks to those who had already asked the questions. Thanks to those novice users(including me), who often get advised(sometimes bashed) to correct themselves. That has helped me to post a proper reply(I hope this is) today. I have posted just one or two queries to this list. Genuinely speaking, I did get some answers but not though the solutions. And also some *fear* and a chance to get corrected before posting to a list. After that, I never preferred to post a query to this thread without searching the previous threads for an answer. And i almost got all, and I neglected the unanswered questions, as I didn't need them that badly. Maybe someone, who uses the search option like me, hesitating to post his/her query, just because he/she isn't sure if he/she had really understand the mailing etiquettes *correctly* or because he/she is likely to be bombarded for a bad grammar, might need it badly. I am sure, I will start contributing to this list at some stage when I've gained some give-able amount of knowledge, before that I would *understand* the mailing etiquettes completely. And I do not want to hesitate to answer at that point of time, just because I would get a serious advice to learn before trying teach. On 13 July 2011 10:45, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > Here is a thread where I *needed* the answer - you can see > what I went through. But I got the answer. > > > http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_thread/thread/bc47e17b51cfc478/5f991b8823c4dcb5?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=russell%2Blawgon#5f991b8823c4dcb5 > > our list is user-friendly - we need to make some of our users > list-friendly. > Sir, the link you provided didn't show any serious trouble you went through *with the person trying to help you* , but a polite warning. I welcome *such* responses here, though, I am not assured of *only such*. On 13 July 2011 14:47, 0 <0...@0throot.com> wrote: > My humble suggestion is to stop posting to the > thread. > > I really wanted not to post anything, but just felt that this might help some newbies like me to start learning to post. I am not sure,even after going through the mailing list etiquettes, if posting replies to two different posts in a same reply is right or wrong, but I'm just going to post this, so that someone might correct me if this is wrong. Thanks, Manoj ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 10:45 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > > we need a josiyer to answer them ;-) Well said I should say. If you don't ask, it means you don't want the answer that bad. > I have been flamed innumerable > times on many lists worldwide for asking dumb questions or not asking > questions properly - or people have been extremely rude even while > giving the correct answers, or hints. But I persist, because I *need* > the answers, and, after all, I am not paying these guys. There was this > guy on IRC - insulted every one with pretty vulgar language, but had all > the answers. I met several deadlines because of him. I by far is a beginner. Have met similar situations at various situations, been told to get out of channels, branded as dumb, hopeless and what not? I will suggest a technique that I follow online, that might help beginners in such situations. You know the question is dumb/silly, ask it and think that someone else has asked it, and watch that 'someone' getting bashed, and be that someone until you get the answer. Once you get your answer, you can drop that someone from your mind and get back to your work. This will help yourself by large. > our list is user-friendly - we need to make some of our users > list-friendly. > > No one is going to spoon feed anyone, and call you dear in technical mailing lists, so forget that goody-goody language and get seroius about the problem you are going to solve, all those *fear* that you say is no way going to answer your question, but sometimes bashing will get you to results. to sumup get thickskin. -- Regards P.Arunmozhi Twitter: @tecoholic Website: http://arunmozhi.in ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 22:49 +0530, ijeyant...@gmail.com wrote: > There are few grannies in this list who are too old to change their > way of response as well. > Don't know what to do with them. very simple two step process: 1. Check the gmane archives to see whether the granny's posts are worth reading. 2. If you find that the person in question is completely jobless and only posts to whine about the way other people post, then just add his id to your twit filter and you will never be troubled by his posts again. bye -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
--- On Wed, 13/7/11, ijeyant...@gmail.com wrote: > Thank you so much for sharing the same thought that was > about to convey. > There are few grannies in this list who are too old to > change their > way of response as well. > Don't know what to do with them. If you don't want grannies to answer easiest will be for the so called youths to answer even before grannies answer - thus making them obsolete. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to happen. But don't forget today's youth will be a granny in future. Raman.P blog:http://ramanchennai.wordpress.com/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> This could be due to some one take 'initiative' & 'action' - for > making this ILUGC - much better. True. > At the same time, please look at these threads - for a few days - you > would see some of replies are more 'reactive' than giving simple, > straightforward answer. And if someone feels that the question 'does > not deserve' his time & answer - he 'may' leave it unanswered, instead > of just replying 'straight-forward', and then keeps 'reactively - > defending'. Right. This is what I have been struggling to explain in a different thread. > > Many organisations have closed down / not-looked-at anymore, because > of getting replies that does not convey proper respect to the asker. > Yes! I am the living example. Also, few of my friends (whom I felt would be a great resource if they start contributing for ILUGC) literally stopped monitoring this list just because of the not-so-necessary debates happening often. > It is the same Land - from where the Guru "never shouts at students - > when stupid questions where asked - since, he might not have taught > them proper" -(I have read this somewhere in the last month - and do > not ask me where & when etc). > > If some body is trying to do something - for the betterment of all - > either support him or leave the thread. Thank you so much for sharing the same thought that was about to convey. There are few grannies in this list who are too old to change their way of response as well. Don't know what to do with them. > > I have learnt a lot by reading the ILUGC posts, but have sometimes > felt this forum is mainly for people who do know linux. > > Thanks for not 'reacting' to my simple post. Hope you don't mind on my positive response :) -- Regards - Jeyanthan http://ijeyanthan.com/ http://www.symposiumz.net/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Dear Sirs, The intention of starting this thread is good - personally. This could be due to some one take 'initiative' & 'action' - for making this ILUGC - much better. At the same time, please look at these threads - for a few days - you would see some of replies are more 'reactive' than giving simple, straightforward answer. And if someone feels that the question 'does not deserve' his time & answer - he 'may' leave it unanswered, instead of just replying 'straight-forward', and then keeps 'reactively - defending'. Many organisations have closed down / not-looked-at anymore, because of getting replies that does not convey proper respect to the asker. It is the same Land - from where the Guru "never shouts at students - when stupid questions where asked - since, he might not have taught them proper" -(I have read this somewhere in the last month - and do not ask me where & when etc). If some body is trying to do something - for the betterment of all - either support him or leave the thread. I have learnt a lot by reading the ILUGC posts, but have sometimes felt this forum is mainly for people who do know linux. Thanks for not 'reacting' to my simple post. Hats-off to Mr. Srinivasan, for this initiative. with warm regards, s.sivakumar mumbai 98200 10728 ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> > We need to have some additions that goes into the mailing list guidelines. > 1. The Objective of this list. ( Policies with respect to free software, use > of linux, evangelism, etc.) > yes this is obvious one > 2. Are we promoting free software aggressively ( or are we here to provide > / > share technical assistance to Linux users?) > this one too 3. What is our policy on proprietary software? Do we refuse to help people > who want to use Linux alongside Windows? > personally i am neutral with that . 4. More.. > be the nursery to nurture talent and show them the way to jobs/career paths , because i see jobs are related as success criteria again this is debatable. the ecosystem is as such that each one needs the other , i am referring to the companies and communities. -Satya fossevents.in ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 14:32 +0530, Yogesh Girikumar wrote: > 1. The Objective of this list. ( Policies with respect to free > software, use > of linux, evangelism, etc.) all of the above - different people have different agendas (as we saw on the debate on the free laptop scheme) > 2. Are we promoting free software aggressively ( or are we here to > provide / > share technical assistance to Linux users?) both > 3. What is our policy on proprietary software? against > Do we refuse to help people > who want to use Linux alongside Windows? no - I have seen a lot of support for dual boot problems - it is up to the individual member to decide. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Asokan Pichai wrote: > 2. It appears that many newcomers `will' not know some > things that all seasoned users take for granted: > eg: top posting, asking poorly framed questions, > all caps They are supposed to read the list guidelines. The welcome message has links to the relevant guidelines. This is not rocket science where we are dealing with multi dimensional equations. Noobs can ask for clarification regarding the guidelines itself. The best way to learn about participation is to lurk and understand how other members are posting; correlate it to the guidelines. It appears they do not read the guidelines and the learn from others' posts; when they have a query they shoot off questions that have not been well thought out. I have experienced this via personal emails to me "I am a noob, interested in Linux. I am experiencing problem with blah blah. I expect you give me step-by-step instructions (read spoon feed me)" Sorry it ain't gonna happen. > 3. Many people believe that such newcomers should be > educated and that they are actually being scared > away by the type of answers that are given You want to learn the fundamentals? Develop a thick skin if that is indeed your objective. Most of the "seasoned" individuals have gone through this path when they first dealt with mailing/IRC culture. Initially, yes your face turns red but when you look at the greater good that you achieved for yourself, it is a negligible price to pay. Otherwise please look for a "Tutorial Classes" type place - pay money and probably learn a little bit (if at all). > 5. Many people (often those that do not answer queries) > are going on record questioning the style of such answers and reduce the S/N ratio :) The entire thread then deviates into 2^n discussion :D The OP is wondering what the hell happened here? > 6. The defenders of newcomers are almost taking the view that > we can educate the newcomers ONLY after answering the > questions. It is like giving candy to a child to make him/her stop crying. As soon as the candy is gone the crying starts all over again. > 7. I almost 'hear' an undertone of "If you try to educate them > any other way they will be lost to the community So be it. Help those who are willing to help themselves. IMO, spoon feeding is the worst kind of help.Read the RTFMs, do some homework, post the detail of the problem you are facing (to the best of your ability) and members will chip in with answers and/or guidance on what to do next. > 8. The seasoned users opine that in order to be a member > of any group one has to first understand the rules of > that group. Else the group will first ask you to do that > before responding to your needs. Isn't this true for any activity?I have seen kids make rules and agree to them when they play "street" cricket. When anyone broke the rules they are not that friendly with offender ;) Why expect anything different here? IMO, the list is to discuss technical issues related to Linux and FOSS applications.I am a member of many lists but this is the only list where "user friendliness" issue pops up every few weeks (IIRC) > But do not start send mails whose only purpose is criticizing and educating > those who answer. I second this - no point in reducing the S/N ratio of the discussion. -- Arun Khan A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
There have been several violations of the forum rules in this thread and I think the objective of the thread has been lost except for a few attempts to resuscitate. My humble suggestion is to stop posting to the thread. -- 0 ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Yuva raj wrote: >> The trouble is that in our culture, when we criticise the question many >> people take it personally. Well, if a person takes such criticism >> personally, he is not going to go very far in the foss world. >> >> What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth Gonslaves newbies wont > be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is behaving > in the mailing list. > I think he wont take this personally. If he takes then he is not in FOSS > world according to him. Quit unwarranted. In the guise of openness, we cannot have such denunciation. I second what KG does. Everyone's time is precious and this is voluntary. While we can remain silent to such questions, it does get to us once in a while apart from the irk that we have to deal with the traffic in our mailbox. The fact that KG makes it a point to reply to each these posts albeit tersely, is a service to the silent sufferers like me. ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
2011/7/13 Yuva raj > What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth Gonslaves newbies wont > be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is behaving > in the mailing list. > I think he wont take this personally. If he takes then he is not in FOSS > world according to him Yuva Raj, People have their ways of expressing ideas. You may or may not like them. What this thread is intended to do is to express the opinion of people like me, that it is a *better* thing to have a bit more tolerance and patience when dealing with newcomers to the list. You are making things personal here, which is unhealthy and very wrong. Kindly refrain. @All, We need to have some additions that goes into the mailing list guidelines. 1. The Objective of this list. ( Policies with respect to free software, use of linux, evangelism, etc.) 2. Are we promoting free software aggressively ( or are we here to provide / share technical assistance to Linux users?) 3. What is our policy on proprietary software? Do we refuse to help people who want to use Linux alongside Windows? 4. More.. -- Y ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
--- On Wed, 13/7/11, Yuva raj wrote: > > > > What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth > Gonslaves newbies wont > be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is > behaving > in the mailing list. > I think he wont take this personally. If he takes then he > is not in FOSS > world according to him. > > -- > *Thank You > Best Regards* > > *Yuvaraj L* I think you are confusing between criticising question(or the way question is put at) and criticising the person questioning. KG is more concerned about the question and not about the person. Raman.P blog:http://ramanchennai.wordpress.com/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 01:45 -0600, Yuva raj wrote: > > What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth Gonslaves newbies > wont > be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is behaving > in the mailing list. > I think he wont take this personally. I take it very personally - this is the most insulting post I have ever seen on this list. And since you are making comments like this kindly state your qualifications and your contributions to this list. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi, On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Yuva raj wrote: >> What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth Gonslaves newbies wont If we ban anyone because we don't like his/her replies, we stop being a FOSS group in the first place. > be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is behaving If the newbies are afraid of being told that they are wrong, then it is more of an attitude problem. A lot of people in this list joined this as a newbie, me included. And none is an expert in every area, implying everyone is a newbie, one way or the other. Just that we should look at learning from our mistakes - irrespective of whether we get corrected in a mild manner or rough manner. Thanks -- Thank you Balachandran Sivakumar Arise Awake and stop not till the goal is reached. Mail: benignb...@gmail.com Blog: http://benignbala.wordpress.com/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> The trouble is that in our culture, when we criticise the question many > people take it personally. Well, if a person takes such criticism > personally, he is not going to go very far in the foss world. > > What i felt long before was like if we ban Kenneth Gonslaves newbies wont be afraid. No Offense.. Just criticizing the way he is behaving in the mailing list. I think he wont take this personally. If he takes then he is not in FOSS world according to him. -- *Thank You Best Regards* *Yuvaraj L* ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 13:40 +0530, Venkatraman S wrote: > the noise-to-signal ratio(!!). ilugc has the best SNR ratio of all LUG lists in India (Mumbai is the worst) -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Ok; my 2 paise 1. There is an opinion that the list needs to be 'friendly' for some values of that term 2. It appears that many newcomers `will' not know some things that all seasoned users take for granted: eg: top posting, asking poorly framed questions, all caps 3. Many people believe that such newcomers should be educated and that they are actually being scared away by the type of answers that are given 4. Many people (often those who do answer such queries) believe that the simple, direct, rude, blunt, offensive (Choose your pick) answer is the best way. 5. Many people (often those that do not answer queries) are going on record questioning the style of such answers 6. The defenders of newcomers are almost taking the view that we can educate the newcomers ONLY after answering the questions. 7. I almost 'hear' an undertone of "If you try to educate them any other way they will be lost to the community 8. The seasoned users opine that in order to be a member of any group one has to first understand the rules of that group. Else the group will first ask you to do that before responding to your needs. My stance: If you want to be part of the group that nurtures the newcomers please do so. The people who answer questions will not (cannot, should not) stop you. You can explain to and educate the new comers about the expected behaviour on the list and deprecate the attitude of the answers as part of such mails. But do not start send mails whose only purpose is criticizing and educating those who answer. -- Asokan Pichai *---* We will find a way. Or, make one. (Hannibal) ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 10:00 +0530, manoj kumar wrote: > >On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves > wrote: > > > > before that analyse what is supposed to be wrong. This month, > apart > > from > > > announcements etc, 14 questions were asked, of which 12 were > answered. > > > So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? > > > > The discussion here is about the questions that were "unasked" . we need a josiyer to answer them ;-) I have been flamed innumerable times on many lists worldwide for asking dumb questions or not asking questions properly - or people have been extremely rude even while giving the correct answers, or hints. But I persist, because I *need* the answers, and, after all, I am not paying these guys. There was this guy on IRC - insulted every one with pretty vulgar language, but had all the answers. I met several deadlines because of him. If people do not ask questions because they are scared, then they do not really *need* the answers. Here is a thread where I *needed* the answer - you can see what I went through. But I got the answer. http://groups.google.com/group/django-users/browse_thread/thread/bc47e17b51cfc478/5f991b8823c4dcb5?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=russell%2Blawgon#5f991b8823c4dcb5 our list is user-friendly - we need to make some of our users list-friendly. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi Shrini, On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Shrinivasan T wrote: > > it will be nice if you share your thoughts on how we can improve the > niceness of the list. > I would like to quote what Randal Schwartz[0] mentioned on perl-beginners list mentioned when people on that list felt that we should use kind and polite words when dealing with beginners. Here (and on monks and usenet and now StackOverflow), I'm (often) reacting to bad code. And I make no apologies for saying code is bad or wrong or illpurposed or a security threat, if that's indeed what it is, and I also believe that the person who creates such code needs to understand that in *no* uncertain terms. Softening the blow does nobody any good there. Weaselwording is counterproductive. If they don't have a thick skin already, they'd better get one soon, or they'll be useless as an advanced programmer. Without thick skin, they won't be able to submit their code for review regardless of how much their ego is invested in it. And down that path lies security breaches and thedailywtf.com submissions. I have no tolerance for that. I'm trying to make the world a better place, one correction at a time. :) I am also linking[1] to the actual thread on nntp.perl.org. The discussion started on a similar note, when some beginner used a bad construct and was asked not to use that in a hard manner. The scenario is much similar here. A lot of beginners ask questions, of course genuine. But there might be something wrong, or something that would have been better and hence someone tells that in strict manner. I don't think there is anything wrong there. PS: There might be people who "hate" Randal Schwartz. But he is no doubt a respected perl guy. Let's just look at this comments from that angle. [0] - Randal Schwartz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randal_L._Schwartz [1] - Link to the thread from which the quote was taken - http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.beginners/2011/04/msg116679.html -- Thank you Balachandran Sivakumar Arise Awake and stop not till the goal is reached. Mail: benignb...@gmail.com Blog: http://benignbala.wordpress.com/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
>On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 6:00 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves >wrote: > > before that analyse what is supposed to be wrong. This month, apart > from > > announcements etc, 14 questions were asked, of which 12 were answered. > > So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? > The discussion here is about the questions that were "unasked" . -- < *A.ManojKumar* > http://getch.wordpress.com ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
>On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Shrinivasan T wrote: > >I am seeing a lot of people FEAR to shoot a mail to the list. > >It seems that the newbies should have thick skin to write to our list. > > >The mailing list guidelines are there but we have to > >think on how our responses and replies to the list > >are welcoming the new users. > >Yes. The new users will do mistakes like top/bottom posting, > >mails in FULL CAPS, sms language etc. > >But, we should teach them in a very friendly tone. > +1 < *A.ManojKumar* > http://getch.wordpress.com ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 05:26, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > The people who took > offence were some do-gooders who where trying to educate people how to > answer questions - but the interesting thing is that *they* did not make > the slightest effort to answer the question. Wow, this is such a good point! Although, like with most other issues, both sides have valid arguments. Meta-discussions such as these don't go anywhere, so maybe the solution is that if anyone feels that a question could have been answered better, or in a more sensitive way, go ahead and provide that better, more sensitive answer. -- http://about.me/rosh ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 21:25 +0530, Yogesh Girikumar wrote: > Recently someone asking if he can use Ubuntu alongside Windows Server > was > rebuked for no reason. rebuked? what was the rebuke? He asked if open source software was available for ubuntu client and windows server. The answer was 'no'. And the answer is still 'no'. And he did not take offence - he realised his question may have been misunderstood and clarified. The people who took offence were some do-gooders who where trying to educate people how to answer questions - but the interesting thing is that *they* did not make the slightest effort to answer the question. So please do not make wild allegations. -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 18:39 +0530, devjyoti patra wrote: > So if it does'nt harm our respected and beloved seniors in any way, > please do not criticize the person, The trouble is that in our culture, when we criticise the question many people take it personally. Well, if a person takes such criticism personally, he is not going to go very far in the foss world. > but instead think that > if you are truly a FOSS evangelist, your answer should generate more > interest in him. why assume that everyone here is an evangelist? -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 18:23 +0530, Shrinivasan T wrote: > >So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? > > Answer from 0: > > > ilugc has got a lot of potential > > but if you ask me today whether I would recommend it to a beginner, > the > > answer would be no. this a total misreading of ILUGC. ILUGC is *the* leading forum for linux and open source in the country today. It is active both in discussion and action. It is the best possible place for a beginner and for an old hand. I always recommend it for beginners. Here people can not only learn about anything under the sun - they can also interact with the cream of the open source community in India. When I recommend people to join, I also advise them not to jump in at the deep end - lurk on the list, study how people behave, read the guidelines, take care and trouble to formulate your posts. You will be rewarded. We are not social workers here - we are a bunch of people with a common interest. I would be interested to know what the OP recommends for beginners - paid private tuition? -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> i disagree. ilugc is beginner friendly. i learnt linux mostly after > joining ilugc. But does expects you know working english and some > basic manners like reading completely before posting. Diluting these > basic principle, will be determinative to the list. We are already > doing a good job. Why do you think we are not. By beginner, in the broader sense, I mean those folks who use the computer only for basic purposes such as web mail, managing documents, playing music etc.. They essentially learn how to operate the computer through their friends and family. Also, Please don't feel offended, it was just a personal opinion which, I hope, will change over time. -- 0 ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On 12 July 2011 18:23, Shrinivasan T wrote: > Question by KG: > >>So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? > > Answer from 0: > >> ilugc has got a lot of potential >> but if you ask me today whether I would recommend it to a beginner, the >> answer would be no. i disagree. ilugc is beginner friendly. i learnt linux mostly after joining ilugc. But does expects you know working english and some basic manners like reading completely before posting. Diluting these basic principle, will be determinative to the list. We are already doing a good job. Why do you think we are not. Please do not dilute and bring down the quality of dicussion in ml. with regards, ashwin ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
2011/7/12 Balajee - Gmail > > When I drive my car on the road I should follow the rules, otherwise we > know what will happen. The same way when a > member like to participate in the list let him see the previous mails, > study > list rules and understand how to ask questions. Most new comers have zero idea about seeking support from the Internet. We need to be polite to them. We should educate them. If you think we have no business educating them then we should stay silent instead of rebuking them the very first time. Repeated mistakes can be taken seriously. We should first welcome them and then maybe point them to list rules. Recently someone asking if he can use Ubuntu alongside Windows Server was rebuked for no reason. For all we know, he might have had some good reason for that. I was working part time at an Internet cafe and I have tried to switch the whole cafe to Ubuntu. The proprietor told be "Do whatever you want, just don't touch the server"! He had his own concerns. Everyone has to start somewhere. I would certainly expect the senior Linux experts / Veterans to be a bit more kind and forgiving. And this thread is not about decline in the number of posts. It's about new comers to the list and how they (and their mistakes) are treated. -- Y ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
we can make videos and make short films to aware the people ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> Whatever might be the case, new comers look to the seniors in getting > ready to enter the world of FOSS. > It has happened with me, and I'm sure it must have happened with many > members of this list. > So if it does'nt harm our respected and beloved seniors in any way, > please do not criticize the person, but instead think that > if you are truly a FOSS evangelist, your answer should generate more > interest in him. I wont say that this is a responsibility but in my > opinion it definitely is a nice thing to do. I am a passive member of the list. I am a Hardware Engineer who is sparingly using Linux. But I read all the mails for the last two years. I enjoy the questions and answers. This list is doing fine. Linux is Free & Open Source, that doesn't mean when some member ask a question and expect a free answer from the other member of the list. If some one try to answer the question we should be thankful to him. Let us understand what is freedom. When I drive my car on the road I should follow the rules, otherwise we know what will happen. The same way when a member like to participate in the list let him see the previous mails, study list rules and understand how to ask questions. Even some one point the mistake let the member say thanks to him and correct his mistake. I think now a days we are slowly loosing patience. The other member is taking his time to correct us. Why don't we accept it. Let us show our honesty on this list to accept our mistakes and correct them. If we do not understand the answers we can ask them to explain in details rather than criticizing them. Thanks, Balajee ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
>May be this is because majority of newbie are college going guys/gals and >they are on summer vacations *or* may be a quick data analysis *may* reveal >that newbie questions are more when the college reopens and new student >join. If this is the case then the number of people joining the list in past months should also go down significantly. Whatever might be the case, new comers look to the seniors in getting ready to enter the world of FOSS. It has happened with me, and I'm sure it must have happened with many members of this list. So if it does'nt harm our respected and beloved seniors in any way, please do not criticize the person, but instead think that if you are truly a FOSS evangelist, your answer should generate more interest in him. I wont say that this is a responsibility but in my opinion it definitely is a nice thing to do. ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi, > ilugc has got a lot of potential > > but if you ask me today whether I would recommend it to a beginner, the > > answer would be no. > May be but when I first used the mailing list's I was also a newbie and I never faced any problem :). -- With Regards, Gaurav Paliwal http://gauravpaliwal.com ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Question by KG: >So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? Answer from 0: > ilugc has got a lot of potential > but if you ask me today whether I would recommend it to a beginner, the > answer would be no. -- Regards, T.Shrinivasan My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com Free/Open Source Jobs : http://fossjobs.in Get CollabNet Subversion Edge : http://www.collab.net/svnedge ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Hi, On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Shrinivasan T wrote: > Friends. > > I am seeing a lot of people FEAR to shoot a mail to the list. > It seems that the newbies should have thick skin to write to our list. > May be this is because majority of newbie are college going guys/gals and they are on summer vacations *or* may be a quick data analysis *may* reveal that newbie questions are more when the college reopens and new student join. -- With Regards, Gaurav Paliwal http://gauravpaliwal.com ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 17:38 +0530, Shrinivasan T wrote: > Rather than replying with > +1,+2,-1,-2, like, etc > > it will be nice if you share your thoughts on how we can improve the > niceness of the list. > > before that analyse what is supposed to be wrong. This month, apart from announcements etc, 14 questions were asked, of which 12 were answered. So what is the problem that you are attempting to solve? -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> Rather than replying with > +1,+2,-1,-2, like, etc > > it will be nice if you share your thoughts on how we can improve the > niceness of the list. > I am new to the list so I haven't grasped the exact purpose of the list yet. But, in my opinion, I agree with your thoughts and to promote the idea of free/open software it is necessary that newcomers from all sections of the society feel welcome. ilugc has got a lot of potential but if you ask me today whether I would recommend it to a beginner, the answer would be no. To change that, all questions asked should be considered as genuine and reasonable, even if they seem unreasonable and bogus. Just my 2 cents. -- 0 ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Rather than replying with +1,+2,-1,-2, like, etc it will be nice if you share your thoughts on how we can improve the niceness of the list. Thanks. -- Regards, T.Shrinivasan My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com Free/Open Source Jobs : http://fossjobs.in Get CollabNet Subversion Edge : http://www.collab.net/svnedge ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
> Dear Mr. Srinivasan, > > you have caught& highlighted the right point. > > it is really welcome to have this. > > Thanks for this initiative. > +1 -- 0 ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Dear Mr. Srinivasan, you have caught & highlighted the right point. it is really welcome to have this. Thanks for this initiative. with warm regards s.sivakumar 98200 1072 mumbai ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, 2011-07-12 at 15:32 +0530, ashwin kesavan wrote: > So Shrini the reason why you are seeing less traffic where is the decline? http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.org.user-groups.linux.ilugc http://gmane.org/details.php?group=gmane.org.user-groups.linux.ilugc -- regards KG http://lawgon.livejournal.com Coimbatore LUG rox http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/ ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On 12 July 2011 13:22, Shrinivasan T wrote: > Friends. > > I am seeing a lot of people FEAR to shoot a mail to the list. > It seems that the newbies should have thick skin to write to our list. > > Did anyone hear the same from the silent members of the list? > Please check with your friends why they are not posting > or asking any questions to our list. Hi Shrini, I think the results you see in the list and the resulting fear you precive are b'cos you misunderstood/mis-interpreted the results. And if i am correct we will continue to see decline in mailing list traffic and newbie postings. So this is the best time to take the list to next level by creating more discussion between long timers in the list and linux expert gurus in the list. We dont necessarily need to have to get novice level doubts. instead we can start discussions on our experinces and get best practices. Start discussion on newer/less discussed technologes in linux. the one that comes to mind immediately is configuration management system. (not content management system) like pupet or cfengine, etc. Open source app development for desktop application (not OSS web app). I mean something like GUI app in python with gtk+ bindings or qt bindings or wxwidget. One application which i am trying to look into porting to linux is this http://keepfocused.codeplex.com/ . Currently it is alpha but stable . Code review by the peers of the app in ilugc seniors would be great. that way we get to know differernt coding techniques. Now don't limit your self to code. There is a world in IT filed out there that doesnt do code as primarly but yet do wonders. Like sys ops. Try to involve them in discussion by posting information related to them thereby pulling them to the discuss in the list. I mean when faced by sys ops problem andsolvedf by another sys ops. I don't mean usual stuff like db, web server, app server, mail , etc problems. But problems on lesser discussed items like cfengine maybe. So Shrini the reason why you are seeing less traffic esp., from newbies is that linux has become old enough that most of the common problems are already discussed in length in lot of places online in world. And this resulted in google able to pick the most problems and their best solution. So when newbie face a problem he searched in the internet and finds the answer , thereby never needing to post to list. Second reason, most products have become mature enough after gaining limelight by being under linux. For example , mysql, postgresql, httpd, sendmail, samba, etc. And so most critical bugs are already fixed. And company employees are officially asked to work in OSS projects as a part of their part of pushing their commercial product into the market by using the OSS product. For example, you may be providing email service like mail.com. So they might be using sendmail in place of exchange to serve its users., thereby saving the money spend on software and support. So when there is critical bug in sendmail then it is definetly going to affect our mail.com vendor. So this vendor would deploy people in his payroll to fix that bug and give them back to OSS b'cos he got the original s/w as free OSS so it makes sense that he give back to community in what the community has given him. That way the bugs are also getting fixed, atleast so for the long time famous products. New products have the tough challenge of getting large users mindshare. If they prove he worth they will surive and get corporate hornors like our sendmail example got. So the moral of the story: Linux has become old, since linux is in existance for nearly 20 years. So here the waterhole has dried up. Move to the other emerging field where the pasture are still green. i stick on to it b'cos, it maybe old, but it is not going to be dead anywhere near. In fact it has gained ground so much that it is going to live for another few decades before something close to that happens. That time i will move out . infact most people will move out. But during this phase it will lead a life without much happenings. Its grandpa(unix) is still relavent today and that shows some of the strengths of linux and strong lineage it holds for the future. This is how it is going to be . Accept and move on... with regards, ashwin ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
Re: [Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Shrinivasan T wrote: > > I am seeing a lot of people FEAR to shoot a mail to the list. > It seems that the newbies should have thick skin to write to our list. > Expecting others to change is a 'nice' way of living in the world ;) I dont think we should expect others to behave as per our wishes. Newbies need not have a thick skin, but they should feel that this list is a grandpa, to whom they can approach easily and get their queries clarified. I have consistently seen that a selected few do not have the naiveness while posting which is taken as being disrespectful. The problem *is* with the former; for they being in the list for a long time should not take the liberty in 'owning' this group; and should rather help in 'promoting' -- do understand that being curt in replies is dangerous thing - and is often understood as being disrespectful. Btw, i see the same behavior by those *few* across mailing lists too; so i have kind of lived that. Been in this group since 2004-05, i have posted very less and i am always flabbergasted with the noise-to-signal ratio(!!). Code of Conduct should be 'freindly' - like a marketing campaign, and not a checklist. -V ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
[Ilugc] How to make ILUGC list user friendly?
Friends. I am seeing a lot of people FEAR to shoot a mail to the list. It seems that the newbies should have thick skin to write to our list. Did anyone hear the same from the silent members of the list? Please check with your friends why they are not posting or asking any questions to our list. Just thinking on how to make our list more user friendly. The users should not feel odd to send mail to our list. The mailing list guidelines are there but we have to think on how our responses and replies to the list are welcoming the new users. Yes. The new users will do mistakes like top/bottom posting, mails in FULL CAPS, sms language etc. But, we should teach them in a very friendly tone. Quoting from the code of conduct of ubuntu community http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project and with users of Ubuntu. Hope this can be applied to our ILUGC Community too. Please share your thoughts on how can we make our list more friendly. Thanks. -- Regards, T.Shrinivasan My Life with GNU/Linux : http://goinggnu.wordpress.com Free/Open Source Jobs : http://fossjobs.in Get CollabNet Subversion Edge : http://www.collab.net/svnedge ___ ILUGC Mailing List: http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/mailman/listinfo/ilugc
