Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - Linux gurus - linux helplines
All I was saying was if some extra help could be extended to people who are new to Linux, it could make things easier for them. When I say extra help...I dont mean anything more than emailed solutions that list a stepwise procedure, instead of a referal to a manual that has several thousand things to confuse a beginner. OTOH, keep things in perspective.. he was asking for QoS. Hardly a beginner's topic, is it ? :) So what did you expect ? one of us coding a readymade script for him and saying here you go.. we will pretend it is still christmas ? :) He made out like he was the admin. So frankly speaking he should be used to reading manuals and getting what he wanted from them. Or if he is not the admin, his company should hire a competent guy. I think it is a bad idea to allow a guy who shirks from learning things to setup servers etc., and thus leave open mail relays and easily exploitable servers which get used to create a problem for other people.(not necessarily insinuating that *he* is one or not). You may have valid points but they are not applicable to the case in question. - Abhi ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - linux gurus
On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 12:26, Raj Shekhar wrote: Hello! My 0.50 Rs addition to the thread Linux Guru == Someone who has read the manual my 0.25 Rs to this: Linux Guru = someone who refers to a manual to find a 'gur' or an insight into how to solve a problem or issue. Linux Expert = someone who reads the manual cover to cover. :-) LL ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - linux gurus
My 0.50 Rs addition to the thread Linux Guru == Someone who has read the manual my 0.25 Rs to this: The thread seems to have an opposite effect. Contirbutions from gurus are reducing mail by mail. ;o) Linux Guru = someone who refers to a manual to find a 'gur' or an insight into how to solve a problem or issue. Linux Expert = someone who reads the manual cover to cover. Linux newbie = Tries to lift the manual. Fails miserably. Requests guru+expert to come and pour wisdumb. ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
Nope. It is like: Linux Techie : Here, take this manual. It teaches you how to make a plane. If you cant understand any part of the manual, only then ask me about the specific difficult part. Show me that you made an effort yourself to learn at first. I really cant afford to sit down with you in the plane and teach you step by step - I have a job to do and a family to support. For that either get a paid trainer, or a paid pilot - ofcourse I may be available for these two positions. ;) Yikes!! This gives an impression that all Linux Techie lead a hand to mouth life. I thought Linuxers/GNUers are driven by the statement The most courageous people in the world are volunteers. However, most of the replies that come from gurus in this mailing list are like, newbies need to be looked down upon. No doubt there are words of encouragement that appear to just float all over. But when a newbie asks a technical query. The replies have a tone HUH! You don't even know that!, get lost, read this, this and this, do a million sit-ups and then come back, I might explain you the real answer. Could be due to the fact that 1) The guru is tired of replying to stupid questions 2) The guru is conceited. 3) The guru doesn't want to be with newbies any more. 4) guru is not a guru, but simply wants to be called a guru. For eg. Ghane replies as if he is going to skin a newbie alive if he/she dared to ask what the command to see a directory listing is! The above example has not much to do with the rest of the mail. If I was a guru I'd probably know. Having, said all that, I as a novice, I still feel nice to be a part of ILUGD. Perhaps the above is NOT true to that extreme, but I do sense it sometimes. -Amit. ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
Amit == amit soni [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Nope. It is like: Linux Techie : Here, take this manual. It teaches you how to make a plane. If you cant understand any part of the manual, only then ask me about the specific difficult part. Show me that you made an effort yourself to learn at first. I really cant afford to sit down with you in the plane and teach you step by step - I have a job to do and a family to support. For that either get a paid trainer, or a paid pilot - ofcourse I may be available for these two positions. ;) Amit Yikes!! This gives an impression that all Linux Techie lead Amit a hand to mouth life. I thought Linuxers/GNUers are driven Amit by the statement The most courageous people in the world Amit are volunteers. Amit However, most of the replies that come from gurus in this Amit mailing list are like, newbies need to be looked down Amit upon. No doubt there are words of encouragement that appear Amit to just float all over. Amit But when a newbie asks a technical query. The replies have Amit a tone HUH! You don't even know that!, get lost, read Amit this, this and this, do a million sit-ups and then come Amit back, I might explain you the real answer. Nah, you have to distinguish between looking down on newbies (which I don't) and looking down on idiots, for some user-defined value of ``idiot'' (which I do). It's fine to ask newbie questions on the list; OTOH the list is not meant to replace simple Google searches. To take an example, asking ``Has anyone had problems using RTL8139-based ethernet cards?'' on the list should get you reasonable responses. Asking ``Do RTL8139-based cards work under Linux?'', however, is a bit dumb, since Google can answer that question faster and without consuming anyone else's time or bandwidth. Similarly, ranting about stuff like ``MS must realise that they're harming all of humanity and make Winduhs source GPL'' are likely to get short shrift on the list. In other words, it's fine if you lack knowledge but it's not fine if you refuse to use the brains that $DEITY gave you. Amit Could be due to the fact that 1) The guru is tired of Amit replying to stupid questions 2) The guru is conceited. 3) Amit The guru doesn't want to be with newbies any more. 4) guru Amit is not a guru, but simply wants to be called a guru. Or (5) All of the above ;) Amit For eg. Ghane replies as if he is going to skin a newbie Amit alive if he/she dared to ask what the command to see a Amit directory listing is! The above example has not much to do Amit with the rest of the mail. I don't know... Ghane normally keeps quiet unless (a) he gets a chance to display his rotten wit and put me down g,dr or (b) someone makes completely irrational or baseless statements in a message. Haven't really seen him put anyone down for lack of knowledge yet. Amit If I was a guru I'd probably know. Amit Having, said all that, I as a novice, I still feel nice to Amit be a part of ILUGD. Perhaps the above is NOT true to that Amit extreme, but I do sense it sometimes. Regards, -- Raju -- Raj Mathur[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kandalaya.org/ GPG: 78D4 FC67 367F 40E2 0DD5 0FEF C968 D0EF CC68 D17F It is the mind that moves ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
[ilugd] Club bandwidth - Linux gurus - linux helplines
Amit But when a newbie asks a technical query. The replies have Amit a tone HUH! You don't even know that!, get lost, read Amit this, this and this, do a million sit-ups and then come Amit back, I might explain you the real answer. Nah, you have to distinguish between looking down on newbies (which I don't) and looking down on idiots, for some user-defined value of ``idiot'' (which I do). It's fine to ask newbie questions on the list; OTOH the list is not meant to replace simple Google searches. To take an example, asking ``Has anyone had problems using RTL8139-based ethernet cards?'' on the list should get you reasonable responses. Asking ``Do RTL8139-based cards work under Linux?'', however, is a bit dumb, since Google can answer that question faster and without consuming anyone else's time or bandwidth. Similarly, ranting about stuff like ``MS must realise that they're harming all of humanity and make Winduhs source GPL'' are likely to get short shrift on the list. In other words, it's fine if you lack knowledge but it's not fine if you refuse to use the brains that $DEITY gave you. Is Linux not for dumbos ? We might be talking about masses here. Does a Linux user require more brains than Windows ? I am not sure[ ;o) ] , but probably a dumbo's point of view is, that when 'she' asks the same question to a windows support tech and a Linux support tech the difference in the reply recevied is staggering! For example. I have lost my account password. Windows Tech Support: Happy New year! I am glad that you have lost your password and have given me the opertunity to assist you. do this this and this to restore your password or use a different computer and buy the following patches from so and so url. Linux Techie: would probably tell loads of tricks to hack into your machine or bootloaders +single user mode or things that are beyond the dumbo! Result: dumbo buys the 10% extra performance patches(that require 3 times faster harware). It'll be a tough task to promote linux if we assume the dumb=masses formula.(masses= simple desktop users?) Amit For eg. Ghane replies as if he is going to skin a newbie Amit alive if he/she dared to ask what the command to see a Amit directory listing is! The above example has not much to do Amit with the rest of the mail. I don't know... Ghane normally keeps quiet unless (a) he gets a chance to display his rotten wit and put me down g,dr or (b) someone makes completely irrational or baseless statements in a message. Haven't really seen him put anyone down for lack of knowledge yet. Let me search probably I still have the messages stored somewhere. -Amit. ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
RE: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
Comments emembeded... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of amit soni Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 7:14 PM To: The Linux-Delhi mailing list Subject: Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Yikes!! This gives an impression that all Linux Techie lead a hand to mouth life. I thought Linuxers/GNUers are driven by the statement The most courageous people in the world are volunteers. Aren't you trying to exploit this statement??? However, most of the replies that come from gurus in this mailing list are like, newbies need to be looked down upon. No doubt there are words of encouragement that appear to just float all over. But when a newbie asks a technical query. The replies have a tone HUH! You don't even know that!, get lost, read this, this and this, do a million sit-ups and then come back, I might explain you the real answer. It won't be a sit-up exersice but yes, no body should encourage Mouth Feeding. Progress has little to do with speed, but much to do with direction!!! So a breif direction would let me *scratch* all the possibilties to solve the problem and let all my brothers know, if I found another related thing that would help others in future... Could be due to the fact that 1) The guru is tired of replying to stupid questions 2) The guru is conceited. 3) The guru doesn't want to be with newbies any more. 4) guru is not a guru, but simply wants to be called a guru. The conscience of the soul will help you change and be the best you can be!!! For eg. Ghane replies as if he is going to skin a newbie alive if he/she dared to ask what the command to see a directory listing is! The above example has not much to do with the rest of the mail. If I was a guru I'd probably know. Having, said all that, I as a novice, I still feel nice to be a part of ILUGD. Perhaps the above is NOT true to that extreme, but I do sense it sometimes. And life is what we make it, always has been and always will be :-) -Amit. Cheers!!! -Gurpreet Singh Sachdeva ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
[ilugd] Club bandwidth - linux gurus
to mouth life. I thought Linuxers/GNUers are driven by the statement The most courageous people in the world are volunteers. Aren't you trying to exploit this statement??? No I was just suggesting that rude(which apparantly only I felt) comments to linux newbies from Linux gurus can act as a detterent to newbies from being a part of Linux community. Some initial mouth feeding could resolve this ? But when a newbie asks a technical query. The replies have a tone HUH! You don't even know that!, get lost, read this, this and this, do a million sit-ups and then come back, I might explain you the real answer. It won't be a sit-up exersice but yes, no body should encourage Mouth Feeding. Progress has little to do with speed, but much to do with direction!!! So a breif direction would let me *scratch* all the possibilties to solve the problem and let all my brothers know, if I found another related thing that would help others in future... Oh I dont know! But this is similar to reinventing the wheel.[Something GNU is against.] To a tribe that has seen a wheel for the first time, isnt it better for the world if the tribe is shown how a wheel is used rather than handling them a manual they cant read. The tribe could then develop if furhter, rather than discovering the use of the wheel on their own and then starting on to something better OR dumping the wheel aside because they couldnt figure what a wheel is all about ! Ofcourse, Sandip's point of hiring is accepted. But hire or I wont tell you a thing, just do what you want with the manual is unhealthy. Can we call the tribe dumb if they are not able to figure out the use of a wheel on their own ? The conscience of the soul will help you change and be the best you can be!!! Oink! And life is what we make it, always has been and always will be :-) Mercy! but ...are you drunk or a philosopher ? ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - Linux gurus - linux helplines
amit soni wrote: I am not sure[ ;o) ] , but probably a dumbo's point of view is, that when 'she' asks the same question to a windows support tech and a Linux support tech the difference in the reply recevied is staggering! Yes, the difference is staggering. But there are many reasons for that. A lot of it is cultural. Not much of it can be generalised totally but maybe to some degree. Let me ask you something - have you seen beggars at the traffic points in Delhi? You must have seen that there are two kinds of people - one who gives alms to these beggars and ones who do not. Now those who do NOT give alms to the beggars are again of two kinds - ones who do not want to give their money to somebody, and ones who feel that giving money to these people will only make these people get dependent on this as a way of living. Let us consider this second class of non-paying people and those who pay. Why do the paying person pay? Because there is a sense of instant self-gratification. The person feels good for having helped the beggar through his/her misery and feels good from the thank yous that the beggar might give in return. However, this person doesnt care to think a bit more about the beggar. He doesnt care to think that ok - he provided money for the beggars lunch/dinner/etc. Then what? Where does the beggar get the next meal from? Obviously begging, because now that seems the easiest way out. The person who doesnt pay doesnt get any form of self-gratification. The beggar might make pitiful faces at him. His wife might call him an insensitive clod, maybe even a miser ;). But he knows inside that what he did was in the long-term interest of the beggar. If tomorrow the beggar finds that begging is not paying off, he will try to earn money in some other way - maybe take up pottery or something. If during this endeavour he needs an initial set of customers to help him start his profession, I am sure that this second kind of people would be happy to help him out there because they know that this beggar(who is no longer a beggar) is making an effort to get out of their situation. I am sure that you can draw the analogy, ofcourse I hope that you dont get offended by the comparison of beggars and newbies. There are good windows tech sites and mailing lists, but go look through the archives of most windows user groups (if such a thing exists) and linux users groups. The cultural difference is staggering. Linux community encourages (rather pushes for) self learning, because people here know that if there is something really important for newbies to learn, it is to find out how to extract information from the wealth of documentation that there is on the web and on the operating system itself! When this newbie is stranded on a weekend at his/her office and most LUG people are sleeping over the weekend, this culture of self-help is what is going to help the newbie. There is also the fact that the process of self-help causes the newbie to learn a lot of things on the way that he/she did not intend to learn at that time ;) but would definitely help in the future. A lot like the man-on-the-moon project that India wants to get into - there is not any presently tangible benefit that India can get from it, but the technological advances required to get there might have far more significant spinoffs .. like advances in the field of launching mechanisms and satellites. - Sandip P.S. Bless you if you have read this far :D -- Sandip Bhattacharyahttp://www.sandipb.net sandip at puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. http://www.puroga.com ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
RE: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - linux gurus
No I was just suggesting that rude(which apparently only I felt) comments to linux newbies from Linux gurus can act as a detterent to newbies from being a part of Linux community. Some initial mouth feeding could resolve this? Why we guys always have an escapist attitude??? We never want to open a book or document and dream that some day some magician will come with his magic stick, will make a liquid of the book and will put it in our brain... I *believe* that no one in this group will refuse to answer a sub query on a query (provided you have made a sincere effort to tackle that... Oh I dont know! But this is similar to reinventing the wheel. Something GNU is against.] To a tribe that has seen a wheel for the first time, isnt it better for the world if the tribe is shown how a wheel is used rather than handling them a manual they can't read. Good example!!! But I never knew that you are unable to read the manual... Plz, I am sure that you are grown enough to read something written in simple salty English and even if you find some spice in it, you can always refer to www.dictionary.com. And if any Technical query (no matter how basic it may be); you are always welcome to post them in the list... The tribe could then develop if furhter, rather than discovering the use of the wheel on their own and then starting on to something better OR dumping the wheel aside because they couldnt figure what a wheel is all about! Believe me, I would be the last person on this earth to discourage any one or be a hindrance in the development on anyone in this world... You are most welcome to post any of the queries/questions/suggestions and I am nobody to stop anyone from doing this... Ofcourse, Sandip's point of hiring is accepted. But hire or I wont tell you a thing, just do what you want with the manual is unhealthy. Can we call the tribe dumb if they are not able to figure out the use of a wheel on their own ? Mercy! But ...are you drunk or a philosopher? Sorry!!! I don't drink and it was just to lighten up the mood... At the center of the Linux philosophy is a concept that we now call Open Source Software Cheers!!! Regards, Gurpreet Singh Sachdeva ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - Linux gurus - linux helplines
I am blessed. :o) I understand the point you made, and disagree. The beggers became beggers because at that time they thought they had nothing else to do. Linux newbies are mostly already aware of windows, and in a country like india, practically both are free. :o) All I was saying was if some extra help could be extended to people who are new to Linux, it could make things easier for them. When I say extra help...I dont mean anything more than emailed solutions that list a stepwise procedure, instead of a referal to a manual that has several thousand things to confuse a beginner. If at the start of a trek, a person is given two options, to climb a tall perpendicular cliff or a steady incline. The person would probably prefer the steady incline. Because at that point he doesnt know that the cliff top is heaven and the steady incline leads to a closed source hell ! Back to beggars, if a NGO takes time to teach pottery to a beggar, it will be easier for the beggar to start pottery. However those little tips(coins) will instead deter them from starting a venture. Ofcourse, if gurus feel their time is too precious to write detailed emails for newbies, then beggers die. If beggars die, GNU falls sick. So next time when you stop at a traffic point, appricaite the effort the beggar has made ! ;o) I am not sure[ ;o) ] , but probably a dumbo's point of view is, that when 'she' asks the same question to a windows support tech and a Linux support tech the difference in the reply recevied is staggering! Let me ask you something - have you seen beggars at the traffic points in Delhi? You must have seen that there are two kinds of people - one who gives alms to these beggars and ones who do not. Now those who do NOT give alms to the beggars are again of two kinds - ones who do not want to give their money to somebody, and ones who feel that giving money to these people will only make these people get dependent on this as a way of living. There is also the fact that the process of self-help causes the newbie to learn a lot of things on the way that he/she did not intend to learn at that time ;) but would definitely help in the future. A lot like the - Sandip P.S. Bless you if you have read this far :D ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth - linux gurus
Hello! My 0.50 Rs addition to the thread Linux Guru == Someone who has read the manual -- \°°/ (oo) +ooO-- -Ooo-+ |Raj Shekhar |My home: | |System Administrator|http://geocities.com/lunatech3007 | |Media Web India |My blog: | |http://www.netphotograph.com|http://lunatech.journalspace.com | +---+ |__|__| || || ooO Ooo ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
Let me know what u need to get done, and we will get it fixed for you. alok sinha Gurpreet Singh Kochhar wrote: thanks can you or someone help in making a Linux machine for me (I will provide the hardware and reasonable expenses) thanks Gurpreet -Original Message- From: Sandeep Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Linux-Delhi mailing list Subject: Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Read this one. http://lartc.org/lartc.html Sandeep - Original Message - From: Gurpreet Singh Kochhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Linux-Delhi mailing list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:42 PM Subject: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Hi I have 3 ISP connections - always on I want help in making a Linux box which can take inputs from 3 different ISP connections and make fat pipe output if it can do bandwidth load balancing that would be great please revert ASAP thanks Gurpreet ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
This is like... Person 1 : I want to fly in a plane ASAP. Linux Techie : Here, take this manual. It teaches you how to make a plane. Read this one. http://lartc.org/lartc.html Hi I have 3 ISP connections - always on I want help in making a Linux box which can take inputs from 3 different ISP connections and make fat pipe output if it can do bandwidth load balancing that would be great ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
amit soni wrote: This is like... Person 1 : I want to fly in a plane ASAP. Linux Techie : Here, take this manual. It teaches you how to make a plane. Nope. It is like: Linux Techie : Here, take this manual. It teaches you how to make a plane. If you cant understand any part of the manual, only then ask me about the specific difficult part. Show me that you made an effort yourself to learn at first. I really cant afford to sit down with you in the plane and teach you step by step - I have a job to do and a family to support. For that either get a paid trainer, or a paid pilot - ofcourse I may be available for these two positions. ;) This is how open source volunteer support works in principle. When one finds people on the list who can actually hand-hold him over the knowledge expedition, then the person should find himself damn lucky. - Sandip -- Sandip Bhattacharyahttp://www.sandipb.net sandip at puroga.com Puroga Technologies Pvt. Ltd. http://www.puroga.com ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
[ilugd] Club bandwidth
Hi I have 3 ISP connections - always on I want help in making a Linux box which can take inputs from 3 different ISP connections and make fat pipe output if it can do bandwidth load balancing that would be great please revert ASAP thanks Gurpreet ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
Read this one. http://lartc.org/lartc.html Sandeep - Original Message - From: Gurpreet Singh Kochhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Linux-Delhi mailing list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:42 PM Subject: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Hi I have 3 ISP connections - always on I want help in making a Linux box which can take inputs from 3 different ISP connections and make fat pipe output if it can do bandwidth load balancing that would be great please revert ASAP thanks Gurpreet ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
RE: [ilugd] Club bandwidth
thanks can you or someone help in making a Linux machine for me (I will provide the hardware and reasonable expenses) thanks Gurpreet -Original Message- From: Sandeep Agarwal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 6:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Linux-Delhi mailing list Subject: Re: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Read this one. http://lartc.org/lartc.html Sandeep - Original Message - From: Gurpreet Singh Kochhar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'The Linux-Delhi mailing list' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 5:42 PM Subject: [ilugd] Club bandwidth Hi I have 3 ISP connections - always on I want help in making a Linux box which can take inputs from 3 different ISP connections and make fat pipe output if it can do bandwidth load balancing that would be great please revert ASAP thanks Gurpreet ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd ___ ilugd mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://frodo.hserus.net/mailman/listinfo/ilugd
