[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
@tres Voice of reason. Thanks @all Solution I am proposing will work even for M$FT. If and when (sort-of- a) supporting IE4-7 becomes not-feasible. They did the same solution but for XP. Instead of supporting legacy OS they delivered a virtual environment for legacy OS apps. I simply am suggesting the same for legacy web apps. jQuery and IE old : I am wondering why mainstream jQ supports IE6 actually? How many developers actually need and use that? Who and when will be developing an web app today , that will run on IE6 too ? 99% of web apps developed on jQ are new apps for new browsers. If I develop web app today, using jQ or not, I would certainly not promise it will run on IE6, or IE7. Certainly there are large customers still using IE6 for their corporate intranets, but they can introduce FF or Chrome in parallel. The number of developers actually developing today and supporting IE6 is very small. jQuery or not. In any case they should be easy to count. I vote for droping IE6 and IE7 support from jQuery. In the same time there should be a separate version that will support them. But not for ever. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
jQuery isn't only for web apps. It's also for smaller websites. And it'd be a shame for show/hide to stop working in older browsers when it has no reason to. ~Daniel Friesen (Dantman, Nadir-Seen-Fire) [http://daniel.friesen.name] DBJDBJ wrote: @tres Voice of reason. Thanks @all Solution I am proposing will work even for M$FT. If and when (sort-of- a) supporting IE4-7 becomes not-feasible. They did the same solution but for XP. Instead of supporting legacy OS they delivered a virtual environment for legacy OS apps. I simply am suggesting the same for legacy web apps. jQuery and IE old : I am wondering why mainstream jQ supports IE6 actually? How many developers actually need and use that? Who and when will be developing an web app today , that will run on IE6 too ? 99% of web apps developed on jQ are new apps for new browsers. If I develop web app today, using jQ or not, I would certainly not promise it will run on IE6, or IE7. Certainly there are large customers still using IE6 for their corporate intranets, but they can introduce FF or Chrome in parallel. The number of developers actually developing today and supporting IE6 is very small. jQuery or not. In any case they should be easy to count. I vote for droping IE6 and IE7 support from jQuery. In the same time there should be a separate version that will support them. But not for ever. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
jQuery and IE old : I am wondering why mainstream jQ supports IE6 actually? How many developers actually need and use that? Who and when will be developing an web app today , that will run on IE6 too ? 99% of web apps developed on jQ are new apps for new browsers. That's a pretty myopic view of the industry. If jQuery, today, didn't support IE6, I doubt I'd be using it. If I develop web app today, using jQ or not, I would certainly not promise it will run on IE6, or IE7. If my company couldn't promise that our web app or site runs on IE6 or IE7, you can bet that the vast majority of clients would look elsewhere. And that's likely true for many, many other developers/companies as well. Certainly there are large customers still using IE6 for their corporate intranets, but they can introduce FF or Chrome in parallel. That's a really naive way of thinking. I certainly would not be willing to bank the success or usability of my application on the willingness of a corporate IT dept to parallel install FF. The number of developers actually developing today and supporting IE6 is very small. jQuery or not. In any case they should be easy to count. Care to provide some evidence? Anecdotally, my company -- and many others that colleagues work at -- would immediately switch to another framework if jQuery decided to drop IE6 and IE7 support in the near future. -- dz --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
To clarify: run on does not mean fully support. Products can and should have different grades of support. But this does not mean completely disregarding IE6 or 7. In any case, jQuery should not be making that sort of decision. Unless supporting IE6/7 is imposing significant roadblocks to the further development of jQuery core, I don't see what benefit anyone gains from removing that support. -- dz On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 4:51 AM, David Zhouda...@nodnod.net wrote: jQuery and IE old : I am wondering why mainstream jQ supports IE6 actually? How many developers actually need and use that? Who and when will be developing an web app today , that will run on IE6 too ? 99% of web apps developed on jQ are new apps for new browsers. That's a pretty myopic view of the industry. If jQuery, today, didn't support IE6, I doubt I'd be using it. If I develop web app today, using jQ or not, I would certainly not promise it will run on IE6, or IE7. If my company couldn't promise that our web app or site runs on IE6 or IE7, you can bet that the vast majority of clients would look elsewhere. And that's likely true for many, many other developers/companies as well. Certainly there are large customers still using IE6 for their corporate intranets, but they can introduce FF or Chrome in parallel. That's a really naive way of thinking. I certainly would not be willing to bank the success or usability of my application on the willingness of a corporate IT dept to parallel install FF. The number of developers actually developing today and supporting IE6 is very small. jQuery or not. In any case they should be easy to count. Care to provide some evidence? Anecdotally, my company -- and many others that colleagues work at -- would immediately switch to another framework if jQuery decided to drop IE6 and IE7 support in the near future. -- dz --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
The more advanced web app is , the more difficult its team to support IE6/7. M$FT and the rest of us are quickly reaching the point where supporting IE6/7 is not feasible any more. When M$FT reaches that point, it will be game over for IE6/7. It is as simple as that. PS: M$FT is already reaching this point not because of love for javascript or jQuery, but because of support for Office 2010, Silverlight and XAML in general. If they have decided to label XP as not compatible they will certainly have no problems to kill of IE6/7 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
It has been repeatedly stated that jQuery has NO plans to drop support for IE7, and that pretty much everything in jQuery that is there for IE7 also is there for IE6, meaning that support for the two pretty much comes in tandem. IE6 is a bitch to develop for, we all know that, but I don't think we need a drop IE6 support from jQuery thread on this list once a month. On Jul 22, 12:42 pm, DBJDBJ dbj...@gmail.com wrote: The more advanced web app is , the more difficult its team to support IE6/7. M$FT and the rest of us are quickly reaching the point where supporting IE6/7 is not feasible any more. When M$FT reaches that point, it will be game over for IE6/7. It is as simple as that. PS: M$FT is already reaching this point not because of love for javascript or jQuery, but because of support for Office 2010, Silverlight and XAML in general. If they have decided to label XP as not compatible they will certainly have no problems to kill of IE6/7 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
Exactly. Also, two things: 1. Can we stop with the silly M$ nomenclature? We're not script kiddies with an axe to grind. 2. Again, building an advanced web application does not mean forgetting the lessons of progressive enhancement. Using advanced features of newer browsers does not preclude partial support (i.e., IE6 in a usable state) for older browsers. Obviously, the support matrix for #2 is dependent on the specific context and goals of the application, but that matrix is not something jQuery should dictate without good reason. -- dz On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:52 PM, ajpianoajpi...@gmail.com wrote: It has been repeatedly stated that jQuery has NO plans to drop support for IE7, and that pretty much everything in jQuery that is there for IE7 also is there for IE6, meaning that support for the two pretty much comes in tandem. IE6 is a bitch to develop for, we all know that, but I don't think we need a drop IE6 support from jQuery thread on this list once a month. On Jul 22, 12:42 pm, DBJDBJ dbj...@gmail.com wrote: The more advanced web app is , the more difficult its team to support IE6/7. M$FT and the rest of us are quickly reaching the point where supporting IE6/7 is not feasible any more. When M$FT reaches that point, it will be game over for IE6/7. It is as simple as that. PS: M$FT is already reaching this point not because of love for javascript or jQuery, but because of support for Office 2010, Silverlight and XAML in general. If they have decided to label XP as not compatible they will certainly have no problems to kill of IE6/7 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
@dbj That is not a bad concept at all. In IE8, they've implemented a compatibility mode for IE7, I'm sure it could be done for IE6. @david This is actually very related to jQuery development in that at some point, the decision will have to be made to drop support for IE6 (and other older browsers). Whether this is within the next week or the next few years, it is still an issue. @all You still have some - and a substantial amount - using operating systems that aren't supported by more recent browsers and are complicated by situations where they can't upgrade to experience the latest and greatest in web technology. At some point, we as professionals in this industry cannot cater to that crowd anymore and have to move on. Just because someone moves next to the airport and they don't like the noise doesn't mean they're gonna move the airport. This may not be the right time to drop IE6, but will there ever be a right time? On the other hand, if it's not a big deal to support IE6, then why not support it? But if it's dragging down the development of one of the best JavaScript frameworks out there, then that might be a reason to start thinking about it now. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
Well the only reason this is a link to a blog is the image present. Which speaks a thousand words. Which in turn should make the discussion here productive. Same as any other useful discussion on this good forum about legacy browsers issue. Which in turn is important for this forum, since this issue is taking a lot of time and effort since currently jQuery has to support IE6 and other legacy browsers. I suggest this mechanism might take away all that pain, from us jQuery supporters. This mechanism (same as VXP) will make legacy corporate intranets, run happily as long as anyone wants them to. While in the same time we can (almost) forget about legacy browsers and enjoy modern web applications. Probably the only other way will be to simply ignore IE6 and similar, which we can not do right now. @David : it requires imagination to understand this from the blog post provided, without explicitly being told so... --DBJ On Jul 19, 6:38 pm, David Zhou da...@nodnod.net wrote: jquery-dev is not your personal soapbox. If you're going to shamelessly plug your blog, can you at least plug a post that's reasonably related to jquery development? /rant -- dz On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 1:13 PM, DBJDBJdbj...@gmail.com wrote: http://dbj.org/dbj/?p=244 --DBJ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 2:46 AM, DBJDBJdbj...@gmail.com wrote: Well the only reason this is a link to a blog is the image present. Which speaks a thousand words. Which in turn should make the discussion here productive. Same as any other useful discussion on this good forum about legacy browsers issue. Useful discussions on good forums typically involve an opening post/email that consists of more than a single link to a single undiscussed image. Which in turn is important for this forum, since this issue is taking a lot of time and effort since currently jQuery has to support IE6 and other legacy browsers. As long as jQuery supports IE7, I don't see any reason to drop IE6. IIRC, John's said several times that in terms of javascript support, there's not much difference between IE6 and IE7 -- as such, I don't really see the appeal of removing IE6 support whilst keeping IE7 support. While in the same time we can (almost) forget about legacy browsers and enjoy modern web applications. Probably the only other way will be to simply ignore IE6 and similar, which we can not do right now. This is a false dichotomy. Many applications and websites take advantage of modern browsers while still maintaining support for IE6. The concept of progressive enhancement does not disappear with modern web applications. -- dz --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[jquery-dev] Re: My solution for legacy web applications demanding IE6
jquery-dev is not your personal soapbox. If you're going to shamelessly plug your blog, can you at least plug a post that's reasonably related to jquery development? /rant -- dz On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 1:13 PM, DBJDBJdbj...@gmail.com wrote: http://dbj.org/dbj/?p=244 --DBJ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups jQuery Development group. To post to this group, send email to jquery-dev@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to jquery-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
