Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Andrey Kostin via juniper-nsp 

Hi Mark,
100% agree if it could help.
Very annoying. If UX designer touched it, he or she probably never 
actually worked with Junos.


Kind regards,
Andrey

Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp писал(а) 2023-07-12 04:49:

So, this is going to be a very priviledged post, and I have been
spending the last several months mulling over even complaining about
it either on here, or with my SE.

But a community friend sent me the exact same annoyance he is having
with Junos 21 or later, which has given me a final reason to just go
ahead and moan about it:

tinka@router> show rout
 ^
'rout' is ambiguous.
Possible completions:
  route    Show routing table information
  routing  Show routing information
{master}
tinka@router>

I'm going to send this to my Juniper SE and AM. Not sure what they'll
make of it, as it is a rather priviledged complaint - but in truth, it
does make working with Junos on a fairly historically commonly used
command rather cumbersome, and annoying.

The smile that comes to my face when I touch a box running Junos 20 or
earlier and run this specific command, is unconscionably satisfying
:-).

Mark.

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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Jeff Haas via juniper-nsp 


On 7/12/23, 11:46 AM, "Mark Tinka" mailto:m...@tinka.afri>ca> wrote:
> Will any of these issues register significantly on Juniper's roadmap of
> how to make customers happier? Likely unlikely.

Cynically, money moves things the best.

But these comments don't fall on deaf ears.  Occasionally, they fall on ears 
that just solve the problem.  Sadly, for this one, that's not in my power to 
unilaterally address.

Minimally, this has prodded a conversation about "why wasn't this considered 
during our process reviews?"

-- Jeff


Juniper Business Use Only
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 




On 7/12/23 15:45, Jeff Haas wrote:


You don't need to tell my fingers that. __

With the infrastructure as it is, the only "solution" is we stop adding things. 
 Good luck with that.

The general here is the explosion of keywords.  I have about 15 features 
sitting in my backlog that are small things to do to bgp policy.  The policy 
stanza is already a mess.

... and that's not including the work to let users match on flowspec filter 
components.

The CLI could be taught to not include certain auto-completions as a 
user-profile, locally, with hints from TACACS, etc... but it means we get into 
an inconsistent user experience.

Feel free to spend some collective thinking time on what a "this would suck 
less" solution would look like.  I suspect that the competing opinions on what to do 
will eventually involve a cage fight match.


Will any of these issues register significantly on Juniper's roadmap of 
how to make customers happier? Likely unlikely.


Will it stop customers from buying Juniper gear. Even more likely unlikely.

Does it hurt to ask? Nope.

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 



On 7/12/23 15:38, Chris Wopat wrote:

Another offender in 21. `protocols bgp` doesn't autocomplete as it did 
since `bgpmcast` was added.


me@r-mx304-lab-re1# set protocols bgp?
Possible completions:
> bgp                  BGP options
> bgpmcast             BGP multicast options


Yes, that has been painful too since Junos 21. But in the hierarchy of 
annoying changes, the one to "route" is higher.


Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 




On 7/12/23 15:08, Vladimir Blazhkun wrote:


You can probably deny that command using the login class ACL.


As I'd mentioned to someone else already, not looking to create custom 
hacks that would not survive staff movement.


While it is an option, it would be one of extreme last resort.

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Jeff Haas via juniper-nsp 
You don't need to tell my fingers that. __

With the infrastructure as it is, the only "solution" is we stop adding things. 
 Good luck with that.

The general here is the explosion of keywords.  I have about 15 features 
sitting in my backlog that are small things to do to bgp policy.  The policy 
stanza is already a mess.

... and that's not including the work to let users match on flowspec filter 
components.

The CLI could be taught to not include certain auto-completions as a 
user-profile, locally, with hints from TACACS, etc... but it means we get into 
an inconsistent user experience.

Feel free to spend some collective thinking time on what a "this would suck 
less" solution would look like.  I suspect that the competing opinions on what 
to do will eventually involve a cage fight match.

-- Jeff


On 7/12/23, 9:39 AM, "juniper-nsp on behalf of Chris Wopat via juniper-nsp" 
mailto:juniper-nsp-boun...@puck.nether.net> on behalf of 
juniper-nsp@puck.nether.net > wrote:


[External Email. Be cautious of content]




Another offender in 21. `protocols bgp` doesn't autocomplete as it did
since `bgpmcast` was added.


me@r-mx304-lab-re1# set protocols bgp?
Possible completions:
> bgp BGP options
> bgpmcast BGP multicast options




https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/junos/multicast/topics/ref/statement/bgpmcast.html
 

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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Chris Wopat via juniper-nsp 
Another offender in 21. `protocols bgp` doesn't autocomplete as it did
since `bgpmcast` was added.

me@r-mx304-lab-re1# set protocols bgp?
Possible completions:
> bgp  BGP options
> bgpmcast BGP multicast options


https://www.juniper.net/documentation/us/en/software/junos/multicast/topics/ref/statement/bgpmcast.html
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Vladimir Blazhkun via juniper-nsp 
You can probably deny that command using the login class ACL.

-- 
Vladimir Blazhkun (via iPhone).

> On 12 Jul 2023, at 11:49, Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 
>  wrote:
> 
> So, this is going to be a very priviledged post, and I have been spending 
> the last several months mulling over even complaining about it either on 
> here, or with my SE.
> 
> But a community friend sent me the exact same annoyance he is having with 
> Junos 21 or later, which has given me a final reason to just go ahead and 
> moan about it:
> 
> tinka@router> show rout
>  ^
> 'rout' is ambiguous.
> Possible completions:
>   routeShow routing table information
>   routing  Show routing information
> {master}
> tinka@router>
> 
> I'm going to send this to my Juniper SE and AM. Not sure what they'll make of 
> it, as it is a rather priviledged complaint - but in truth, it does make 
> working with Junos on a fairly historically commonly used command rather 
> cumbersome, and annoying.
> 
> The smile that comes to my face when I touch a box running Junos 20 or 
> earlier and run this specific command, is unconscionably satisfying :-).
> 
> Mark.
> ___
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 




On 7/12/23 11:12, Chris Kawchuk wrote:


+1 Mark!


For transparency, it was Chris who gave me the nudge, so thanks for 
that, mate :-).




As any good problem begs for a solution, my suggestions to JNPR are as follows, 
as alternative places for this command:

"show route transport-class ..." (or really, is it even a routing thing? might 
be better w/the segment-routing or spring commands)i.e.:
"show segment-routing ..."
"show spring transport-class ."

...but whatever is done, please, for the love of 20+ years of finger-memory please do 
NOT make it conflict with "sh[TAB] rou[TAB]"


The other option that came to mind is - they could make it part of the 
BGP or MPLS command set, as it is specific to those features.




- CK.

(P.S. NOTE that since this new 'show' command is part of base JunOS 21 and 
above; it's also present on all EX, QFX, SRX, etc.. devices you would never 
ever think of ever running segment-routing on w/transport classes or colours, 
but that *do* have a basic routing table, so it's not just on PTX/ACX/EVO or 
MX/P/PE devices we run into this...)


The beauty of "One Junos to rule them all" :-).

Mark.
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Re: [j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Chris Kawchuk via juniper-nsp 
+1 Mark!

As any good problem begs for a solution, my suggestions to JNPR are as follows, 
as alternative places for this command:

"show route transport-class ..." (or really, is it even a routing thing? might 
be better w/the segment-routing or spring commands)i.e.:
"show segment-routing ..."
"show spring transport-class ."

...but whatever is done, please, for the love of 20+ years of finger-memory 
please do NOT make it conflict with "sh[TAB] rou[TAB]"

- CK.

(P.S. NOTE that since this new 'show' command is part of base JunOS 21 and 
above; it's also present on all EX, QFX, SRX, etc.. devices you would never 
ever think of ever running segment-routing on w/transport classes or colours, 
but that *do* have a basic routing table, so it's not just on PTX/ACX/EVO or 
MX/P/PE devices we run into this...)




> On Jul 12, 2023, at 18:49, Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 
>  wrote:
> 
> So, this is going to be a very priviledged post, and I have been spending the 
> last several months mulling over even complaining about it either on here, or 
> with my SE.
> 
> But a community friend sent me the exact same annoyance he is having with 
> Junos 21 or later, which has given me a final reason to just go ahead and 
> moan about it:
> 
> tinka@router> show rout
>  ^
> 'rout' is ambiguous.
> Possible completions:
>   routeShow routing table information
>   routing  Show routing information
> {master}
> tinka@router>
> 
> I'm going to send this to my Juniper SE and AM. Not sure what they'll make of 
> it, as it is a rather priviledged complaint - but in truth, it does make 
> working with Junos on a fairly historically commonly used command rather 
> cumbersome, and annoying.
> 
> The smile that comes to my face when I touch a box running Junos 20 or 
> earlier and run this specific command, is unconscionably satisfying :-).
> 
> Mark.
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> https://puck.nether.net/mailman/listinfo/juniper-nsp

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[j-nsp] Junos 21+ Killing Finger Muscle Memory...

2023-07-12 Thread Mark Tinka via juniper-nsp 
So, this is going to be a very priviledged post, and I have been 
spending the last several months mulling over even complaining about it 
either on here, or with my SE.


But a community friend sent me the exact same annoyance he is having 
with Junos 21 or later, which has given me a final reason to just go 
ahead and moan about it:


tinka@router> show rout
 ^
'rout' is ambiguous.
Possible completions:
  route    Show routing table information
  routing  Show routing information
{master}
tinka@router>

I'm going to send this to my Juniper SE and AM. Not sure what they'll 
make of it, as it is a rather priviledged complaint - but in truth, it 
does make working with Junos on a fairly historically commonly used 
command rather cumbersome, and annoying.


The smile that comes to my face when I touch a box running Junos 20 or 
earlier and run this specific command, is unconscionably satisfying :-).


Mark.
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