Re: Login for bug reporting
On 2013年02月07日 19:02, Jan Kundrát wrote: Are most of these reports coming from DrKonqi? If so, have it fetch the list of supported versions from somewhere and tell the user to upgrade when their version is too old, then. (And don't accidentally prevent the automated reporting when the version is actually an output from `git describe` etc). Cheers, Jan That is not doable until recently. It's on my TODO list for drkonqi and is actually the original motivation for me to start working on drkonqi. Regards Jekyll
Re: Login for bug reporting
On 2013年02月07日 01:56, Kevin Krammer wrote: Hi at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Well, there is good reason to not put the account creating/logining operation at the beginning : Not every crash is worth reporting. DrKonqi already does some basic checking before allowing users to report a crash. If the account creating/logining operation is put at the very beginning, then users might be told they should not report this crash AFTER they have spent time in creating the account or logining. I think that would be more annoying than the complaint raised in this thread. They may get the impression of being cheated to waste their time, especially creating one account for nothing. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. As for the questions of supporting alternative authentication, anonymous bug database , etc, I lack the related knowledge to make them happen so I wouldn't make stupid comments. But there is one thing I would like to raise : bugs.kde.org is already receiving TOO MANY crash reports, especially useless reports from outdated versions. We don't lack (useful) crash reports. We lack people/time/method to deal with them. So as long as we still use bugs.kde.org for crash reporting, I'm against any change that makes more (useless) crash reports flooding in. I would rather spend time in the opposite direction. One thing that immediately comes into my mind is preventing crash reports from outdated versions (anything older than 4.9.x at the moment) . That is actually already possible after https://reviewboard.kde.org/r/108512 , and I will try my best to make it happen in 4.11. Regards Jekyll
Re: Login for bug reporting
On 2013年02月07日 17:21, Kevin Krammer wrote: It was definitely the process of creating an account, the developer was explicitly stating that providing an email address isn't the problem. Does the crash report dialog offer the option of creating an account? Does it store the password so that it can be automatically retrieved for further reports or when interacting with the web interface in a browser? It doesn't at the moment. It only offers a link to open https://bugs.kde.org/createaccount.cgi in web browser, which asks users to offer one email address and sends the confirmation mail to that email address. Bugzilla does provide the web service API for creating new account, but in effect it does not make difference. It asks for one email address and sends the confirmation mail , too. It is doable, but I don't see real advantage. My understanding of how bugzilla works is that it sends emails to people registered for a certain bug, so an email address would be sufficient, no? I think bugzilla only cares about email addresses it has already verified (meaning registered accounts). It doesn't care about random email addresses.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On 2013年02月07日 18:29, Martin Gräßlin wrote: Also spend a moment and look at the report. There is multiple times written that we don't want any further comments on the bug and that doesn't help anything. Still attachements, still duplicates. I guess you are talking about https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=278636. That should be easier to implement after the operation of fetch bug report information is ported to using xml-rpc API. But still, there should first be some way for developers to mark one report as not welcoming DrKonqi anymore. Regards Jekyll
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Sunday 10 February 2013 16:40:06 Jekyll Wu wrote: On 2013年02月07日 18:29, Martin Gräßlin wrote: Also spend a moment and look at the report. There is multiple times written that we don't want any further comments on the bug and that doesn't help anything. Still attachements, still duplicates. I guess you are talking about https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=278636. That should be easier to implement after the operation of fetch bug report information is ported to using xml-rpc API. But still, there should first be some way for developers to mark one report as not welcoming DrKonqi anymore. and a feedback channel. E.g. for that bug there was one setting to change and it would have been great to just be able to tell the users that in an easy way. -- Martin Gräßlin
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Sat, Feb 09, 2013 at 03:25:12PM +0100, Martin Graesslin wrote: and a feedback channel. E.g. for that bug there was one setting to change and it would have been great to just be able to tell the users that in an easy way. I wish there was a way to have a summary on top in all bugs, editable by us. So instead of just adding a first comment, the reporter writes a summary that we can later edit. -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Login for bug reporting
I believe a similar statistical analysis is also being done by Ubuntu in the last couple of releases. Whoopsie ( the ubuntu crash reporting tool ) sends a bug report to a server called daisy and when daisy detects a large number of bug reports with the same backtrace, it automatically files a bug on Launchpad. No login required, and very simple and straightforward. They have a website dedicated to tracking these bug reports here [1] Maybe such a mechanism could also implemented for KDE? Best Rohan Garg [1] https://errors.ubuntu.com/ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 3:45 PM, Kevin Krammer kram...@kde.org wrote: On Thursday, 2013-02-07, Martin Sandsmark wrote: On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:10:35AM +0100, Kevin Krammer wrote: I met a guy from Mozilla on my flight back home from FOSDEM and his job is doing statistic analysis on their crash reports to find those that happen most often and then enter those as issues for the developers to look at. So they definitely don't add all crash reports to their bug tracker. But do they accept crashes which are not from their own builds? No idea, I was more interested in having him talk about FirefoxOS :) The only thing I remember from the initial introduction was that they get so many crash reports that they can't look at them individually but need to perform statistical analysis first. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring
Re: Re: Login for bug reporting
Martin Gräßlin wrote: That depends on how the easier works. Email address only is for me a big no- no as it means that the user cannot add attachments, which is quite important in the case of a crash trace. Attachments should be possible with just an e-mail address / automatic account creation, I think. if the backtraces go to a special system where I don't see the dups, I'm all fine. If they go to bugzilla I want less and I mean it. The number of duplicates is a real problem and costs us lot's of time and work. I don't want to see anything done to make it easier. And no, we cannot expect users to recognize a duplicate crash, That's too difficult, we can also not expect users from recognizing whether a backtrace is useful. True, it's up to the system to handle dups and invalid backtraces, imo. -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
Martin Sandsmark wrote: On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 01:58:14AM +0100, Teemu Rytilahti wrote: What kind of reports are those useless ones? Dupes? Downstream bugs? Missing information? In my opinion reporting bugs to b.k.o is not that easy (or I've become lazy) as it should be and that's why I'm wondering.. All of the above, as well as obvious PEBKACs and support requests. Dupes for crashes should be an easy one. Downstream bugs not so. Missing information, can we get some of that information automatically from the user's system, like e.g. Ubuntu and Mozilla are doing? PEBKACs and support requests for crashes? Though for regular bug reporting I would like to see something similar to what Mozilla does; forward the user clearly needing support to forums and/or userbase, from the report a bug or b.k.o's bug input page.. -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: 2013/2/7 Kevin Krammer: On Wednesday, 2013-02-06, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. This isn't a way of lowering the barrier of reporting, it is about allowing different means of providing the necessary personal information of the bug reporter. In any case, the main issue of the person was to encounter the account requirment after having gone through the process of making the crash report useful. If we don't want any further bug reports from non-account holders, we can alternatively change the order of things, e.g. check for account credentials before checking for debug symbols. Fair enough, telling people in advance that they will need an account in order to proceed certainly makes sense. I do wonder though why our wikis allow different ways of login if we seem think that only input from people with accounts on KDE infrastructure provide valueable content. I must say that comments like this make me a bit angry. I do wonder why people who apparently never did any serious bug triaging work refuse to listen to people who do it every single day [1]. Again: most bug reports are not useful, but every incoming bug report requires a few minutes of bug triager/developer time, which is a scarce resource. If you don't believe me, look at the crashes reported in January [2]. All those which have DUPL, INVA, WAIT, DOWN, UNMA, DOWN, UPST, WORK, BACK in the 'Resolution' column were not useful, but still required at the very, very least a minute or two each to handle them. Many of those which are still 'UNCO' are probably not useful either. I think that the awesome users who take great efforts to write good reports and find ways to reproduce bugs reliably don't mind the 1 minute registration process. OTOH, people who do think that this registration is too much to ask for are probably not the ones who will invest even more time to provide feedback and make their report useful. I think that a person who is not willing to spend 1 minute creating an account should not have the right to make me spend one or more minutes handling her/his bug report. Cheers, Frank [1] Number of bugs that a person commented on according to the bugs.kde.org search: Myriam: 1 Martin: 3638 Frank: 3104 Kevin: 141 [2] https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?bug_severity=crashbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=CONFIRMEDbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDbug_status=RESOLVEDbug_status=NEEDSINFObug_status=VERIFIEDbug_status=CLOSEDchfield=[Bug%20creation]chfieldfrom=2013-01-01chfieldto=2013-01-31list_id=479548query_format=advancedorder=bug_idlimit=0 Your experience may vary, based on which application you are working on. I mostly work on Krita (960 bugs with comments, so I guess that would be semi-triager) and we don't have that many duplicates. I checked the resolved bugs for the last year and it only has about 10% duplicates while 75% are fixed. Of course Krita is a bit smaller than the other application and does only get about 65% of what Amarok or KWin is getting. I think for smaller applications and a limited timeframe it might be useful like in the first 1-2 months after a release. I would add a few requirements though: Developers would have to activate it so you would have to opt in for each application, these bugs should show up in a seperate component so they are not mixed with the other bugs, can be filtered out by developers who don't want them, only though the crash dialog with a good rated backtrack, some sort of spam protection and maybe limit it to certain plattforms e.g. exclude Windows.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 10:20:07PM +0100, Frank Reininghaus wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. Wouldn't this be solved if backtraces weren't entered as bugs, but into a separate system as Nicolás talks about? That system would hopefully also be able to group together backtraces for the same crashes, and thereby also automatically discarding backtraces marked as fixed (especially if we get version information together with the backtrace). -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday, 2013-02-06, Anders Lund wrote: Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 21:52:53 skrev Alex Fiestas: On Wednesday 06 February 2013 20:36:33 Christoph Cullmann wrote: Hi, actually, if he has taken the obstacles of installing tens of megabytes of stuff, what was the problem with creating an account? Haven't it ever happened to you that you are buying something on the interwebs or checking some stuff and when you are asked to login/register you stop? It has happened to me hundreds of times, maybe because I'm lazy. I sympathize with this user. So do I. Wouldn't it be possible to send a confirmation link for a bug reported by someone not logged in? It was definitely the process of creating an account, the developer was explicitly stating that providing an email address isn't the problem. Does the crash report dialog offer the option of creating an account? Does it store the password so that it can be automatically retrieved for further reports or when interacting with the web interface in a browser? My understanding of how bugzilla works is that it sends emails to people registered for a certain bug, so an email address would be sufficient, no? Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday, 2013-02-06, Frank Reininghaus wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. This wouldn't be another channel of communication, just a different way to provide the bug tracker with the usual contact information. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 22:20:07 skrev Frank Reininghaus: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. Anders
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday, 2013-02-06, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. This isn't a way of lowering the barrier of reporting, it is about allowing different means of providing the necessary personal information of the bug reporter. In any case, the main issue of the person was to encounter the account requirment after having gone through the process of making the crash report useful. If we don't want any further bug reports from non-account holders, we can alternatively change the order of things, e.g. check for account credentials before checking for debug symbols. I do wonder though why our wikis allow different ways of login if we seem think that only input from people with accounts on KDE infrastructure provide valueable content. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Anders Lund and...@alweb.dk wrote: Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 22:20:07 skrev Frank Reininghaus: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. How would the demand for having an account lower the amount of duplicates? The other way round: we already have a lot of duplicates with the current system, if the reports don't have to make an account anymore we would get even more useless reports. Regards, Myriam -- Proud member of the Amarok and KDE Community Protect your freedom and join the Fellowship of FSFE: http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300)
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Anders Lund and...@alweb.dk wrote: Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 22:20:07 skrev Frank Reininghaus: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. How would the demand for having an account lower the amount of duplicates? The other way round: we already have a lot of duplicates with the current system, if the reports don't have to make an account anymore we would get even more useless reports. Beside, does the account generation not at least validate the E-Mail address, or? I mean, I have nothing against allowing people to login with their Google account or whatever if that is possible, but I would not like to see bug reports by idontc...@lala.org. Greetings Christoph -- -- Christoph Cullmann - AbsInt Angewandte Informatik GmbH Email: cullm...@absint.com Science Park 1 Tel: +49-681-38360-22 66123 Saarbrücken Fax: +49-681-38360-20 GERMANYWWW: http://www.AbsInt.com Geschäftsführung: Dr.-Ing. Christian Ferdinand Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Saarbrücken, HRB 11234
Re: Login for bug reporting
Torsdag den 7. februar 2013 10:29:53 skrev Myriam Schweingruber: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Anders Lund and...@alweb.dk wrote: Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 22:20:07 skrev Frank Reininghaus: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. How would the demand for having an account lower the amount of duplicates? The other way round: we already have a lot of duplicates with the current system, if the reports don't have to make an account anymore we would get even more useless reports. Noone /wants/ to create duplicates. Preventing bug reports not only prevents duplicates, it also prevents usable reports. If we want fewer duplicates, making it more likely that they are caught before reported is a better idea. Make the duplicate search step more efficient, for example by having it on a page of its own, so it can't be scrolled past as easily, and provide better information about using it. And what others can come up with... Anders
Re: Login for bug reporting
Torsdag den 7. februar 2013 10:37:38 skrev Christoph Cullmann: Beside, does the account generation not at least validate the E-Mail address, or? I mean, I have nothing against allowing people to login with their Google account or whatever if that is possible, but I would not like to see bug reports by idontc...@lala.org. Thus the idea of using a confirmation link. Anders
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi everyone, Frank Reininghaus wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. The duplicate problem is really an issue I'm sure, but the partial solution might be to use a separate crash-tracker like Nicolás mentioned. Basically the crash-tracker would collect the crash information, from which the bug reports can be made if/when needed. Actually this might even make the situation better for the triaging (aggregation, dupfinding, keeping b.k.o clean..), but can't say for sure of course. I'm not (yet) sure how the process works for Mozilla folks, but all the crashes are reported to a centralized place and aggregated afaik, all done without logging. The bug entries in their Bugzilla are then linked (and vice-versa?) to the crash reports, see https://crash- stats.mozilla.com/products/Firefox . Btw, what kind of reports are they mostly you're marking as dupes/invalids? Not crashes I assume, as DrKonqi should do dupe-checking before letting one to submit reports.. -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi, Rolf Eike Beer wrote: I want to hijack this thread, as it is similar to what I find annoying (but for a totally different reason). I have an account, but sometimes I hack around at other peoples machines. I usually don't have my credential there and I don't even want to put them on this machines. But when I see a crash I would like to have Dr. Konqi to be able to tell me if this is a dupe or not. If it is I could just dump the trace and go on, if it is not I could still save it and report it back at home. Currently I need to log in before it is able to find dupes, which is IMHO not necessary as the information in public. Agreed. And in the same breath it would be nice to relay information about already fixed bugs ala This bug has been fixed in version x or You can use this thing as a workaround. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where a work- around information would be really useful also in cases when the bug is not easily fixable (see AkregatorMetakit crashes, some KWin crashes probably too?). -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hello, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. What kind of reports are those useless ones? Dupes? Downstream bugs? Missing information? In my opinion reporting bugs to b.k.o is not that easy (or I've become lazy) as it should be and that's why I'm wondering.. Bogus spam can probably be handled more or less automatically, when we know what we want and what's are the problems currently. -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi, Martin Graesslin wrote: +1 from me. I don't want reports from users not willing to create an account So easier account creation is also a big no-no? For crashes or for all bugs? Mozilla allows one to supply an e-mail address if the user is willing for that, but still allows sending the traces for aggregation. That doesn't apply for regular bugs though... -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi again, Frank Reininghaus wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. Just wanted to add also, that in case the version stuff is a problem, entering the bugs can be limited of course. I think the big thing with 4.8 crashes might be that they're already fixed and there's a solution available (upgrade), in which case that information could be delivered directly to the user (though when collecting all the crashes to a separate crash reporting system, it'll give nice stats how common the crash is) without even adding that information to the bug-tracker. -- Best Regards, Teemu Rytilahti
Re: Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thursday 07 February 2013 02:00:19 Teemu Rytilahti wrote: Hi, Martin Graesslin wrote: +1 from me. I don't want reports from users not willing to create an account So easier account creation is also a big no-no? For crashes or for all bugs? That depends on how the easier works. Email address only is for me a big no- no as it means that the user cannot add attachments, which is quite important in the case of a crash trace. Also it *must* be clear to the user that they are interacting with a web software and not sending an email to a person. This is something I see again and again, that users are not aware of that. Mozilla allows one to supply an e-mail address if the user is willing for that, but still allows sending the traces for aggregation. That doesn't apply for regular bugs though... if the backtraces go to a special system where I don't see the dups, I'm all fine. If they go to bugzilla I want less and I mean it. The number of duplicates is a real problem and costs us lot's of time and work. I don't want to see anything done to make it easier. And no, we cannot expect users to recognize a duplicate crash, That's too difficult, we can also not expect users from recognizing whether a backtrace is useful. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thursday, 2013-02-07, Teemu Rytilahti wrote: I'm not (yet) sure how the process works for Mozilla folks, but all the crashes are reported to a centralized place and aggregated afaik, all done without logging. The bug entries in their Bugzilla are then linked (and vice-versa?) to the crash reports, see https://crash- stats.mozilla.com/products/Firefox . I met a guy from Mozilla on my flight back home from FOSDEM and his job is doing statistic analysis on their crash reports to find those that happen most often and then enter those as issues for the developers to look at. So they definitely don't add all crash reports to their bug tracker. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 01:58:14AM +0100, Teemu Rytilahti wrote: What kind of reports are those useless ones? Dupes? Downstream bugs? Missing information? In my opinion reporting bugs to b.k.o is not that easy (or I've become lazy) as it should be and that's why I'm wondering.. All of the above, as well as obvious PEBKACs and support requests. -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:10:35AM +0100, Kevin Krammer wrote: I met a guy from Mozilla on my flight back home from FOSDEM and his job is doing statistic analysis on their crash reports to find those that happen most often and then enter those as issues for the developers to look at. So they definitely don't add all crash reports to their bug tracker. But do they accept crashes which are not from their own builds? -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Login for bug reporting
2013/2/7 Kevin Krammer: On Wednesday, 2013-02-06, Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. This isn't a way of lowering the barrier of reporting, it is about allowing different means of providing the necessary personal information of the bug reporter. In any case, the main issue of the person was to encounter the account requirment after having gone through the process of making the crash report useful. If we don't want any further bug reports from non-account holders, we can alternatively change the order of things, e.g. check for account credentials before checking for debug symbols. Fair enough, telling people in advance that they will need an account in order to proceed certainly makes sense. I do wonder though why our wikis allow different ways of login if we seem think that only input from people with accounts on KDE infrastructure provide valueable content. I must say that comments like this make me a bit angry. I do wonder why people who apparently never did any serious bug triaging work refuse to listen to people who do it every single day [1]. Again: most bug reports are not useful, but every incoming bug report requires a few minutes of bug triager/developer time, which is a scarce resource. If you don't believe me, look at the crashes reported in January [2]. All those which have DUPL, INVA, WAIT, DOWN, UNMA, DOWN, UPST, WORK, BACK in the 'Resolution' column were not useful, but still required at the very, very least a minute or two each to handle them. Many of those which are still 'UNCO' are probably not useful either. I think that the awesome users who take great efforts to write good reports and find ways to reproduce bugs reliably don't mind the 1 minute registration process. OTOH, people who do think that this registration is too much to ask for are probably not the ones who will invest even more time to provide feedback and make their report useful. I think that a person who is not willing to spend 1 minute creating an account should not have the right to make me spend one or more minutes handling her/his bug report. Cheers, Frank [1] Number of bugs that a person commented on according to the bugs.kde.org search: Myriam: 1 Martin: 3638 Frank: 3104 Kevin: 141 [2] https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?bug_severity=crashbug_status=UNCONFIRMEDbug_status=CONFIRMEDbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDbug_status=RESOLVEDbug_status=NEEDSINFObug_status=VERIFIEDbug_status=CLOSEDchfield=[Bug%20creation]chfieldfrom=2013-01-01chfieldto=2013-01-31list_id=479548query_format=advancedorder=bug_idlimit=0
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thursday, 2013-02-07, Martin Sandsmark wrote: On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:10:35AM +0100, Kevin Krammer wrote: I met a guy from Mozilla on my flight back home from FOSDEM and his job is doing statistic analysis on their crash reports to find those that happen most often and then enter those as issues for the developers to look at. So they definitely don't add all crash reports to their bug tracker. But do they accept crashes which are not from their own builds? No idea, I was more interested in having him talk about FirefoxOS :) The only thing I remember from the initial introduction was that they get so many crash reports that they can't look at them individually but need to perform statistical analysis first. Cheers, Kevin -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thursday 07 February 2013 11:14:01 Frank Reininghaus wrote: If you don't believe me, look at the crashes reported in January [2]. All those which have DUPL, INVA, WAIT, DOWN, UNMA, DOWN, UPST, WORK, BACK in the 'Resolution' column were not useful, but still required at the very, very least a minute or two each to handle them. I once calculated it for our most often reported bug. It's a driver crash, nothing we could do about it. It has 133 duplicates. Workflow: * incoming mail in bugs mail folder * read backtrace * click the link * switch to browser * scroll down to duplicate field * enter kwin-intel * click submit (* curse because Thomas was faster) With the it interrupted the work it takes about 1 to 2 minutes. That's an easy one as we don't have to look for the duplicate. So it's 266 minutes just for this one bug which is half a person day of work. Also spend a moment and look at the report. There is multiple times written that we don't want any further comments on the bug and that doesn't help anything. Still attachements, still duplicates. -- Martin Gräßlin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:15:48AM +0100, Kevin Krammer wrote: The only thing I remember from the initial introduction was that they get so many crash reports that they can't look at them individually but need to perform statistical analysis first. Well, AFAIK they use breakpad, which means they need to store the debug symbols on their server, and people only upload the minimal stack traces with addresses. This makes it much easier to analyze (statistically and otherwise) and find duplicates, but it's not something we can do. If anything, it would have to be done at a distro level. -- Martin Sandsmark
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:26:52 CEST, Anders Lund wrote: I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Are most of these reports coming from DrKonqi? If so, have it fetch the list of supported versions from somewhere and tell the user to upgrade when their version is too old, then. (And don't accidentally prevent the automated reporting when the version is actually an output from `git describe` etc). Cheers, Jan -- Trojitá, a fast Qt IMAP e-mail client -- http://trojita.flaska.net/
Login for bug reporting
Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi, actually, if he has taken the obstacles of installing tens of megabytes of stuff, what was the problem with creating an account? Was it some problem with privacy, that he doesn't want his mail to register there (than he won't give his mail address as feedback point, anyway) or was the process to much work? Last time I did so, that takes 1 minute and if you won't spend that time, would you spend the time to reply to any question in the bug you reported, because most times, if the backtrace is not just perfect or it is easily reproducable, without any interaction, the bug won't help at all ;) Greetings Christoph - Ursprüngliche Mail - Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring -- -- Christoph Cullmann - AbsInt Angewandte Informatik GmbH Email: cullm...@absint.com Science Park 1 Tel: +49-681-38360-22 66123 Saarbrücken Fax: +49-681-38360-20 GERMANYWWW: http://www.AbsInt.com Geschäftsführung: Dr.-Ing. Christian Ferdinand Eingetragen im Handelsregister des Amtsgerichts Saarbrücken, HRB 11234
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday 06 February 2013 20:36:33 Christoph Cullmann wrote: Hi, actually, if he has taken the obstacles of installing tens of megabytes of stuff, what was the problem with creating an account? Haven't it ever happened to you that you are buying something on the interwebs or checking some stuff and when you are asked to login/register you stop? It has happened to me hundreds of times, maybe because I'm lazy. I sympathize with this user.
Re: Login for bug reporting
Onsdag den 6. februar 2013 21:52:53 skrev Alex Fiestas: On Wednesday 06 February 2013 20:36:33 Christoph Cullmann wrote: Hi, actually, if he has taken the obstacles of installing tens of megabytes of stuff, what was the problem with creating an account? Haven't it ever happened to you that you are buying something on the interwebs or checking some stuff and when you are asked to login/register you stop? It has happened to me hundreds of times, maybe because I'm lazy. I sympathize with this user. So do I. Wouldn't it be possible to send a confirmation link for a bug reported by someone not logged in? Anders
Re: Login for bug reporting
2013/2/6, Kevin Krammer kram...@kde.org: Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. We have some vague ideas to make the crash reporter not use bugzilla at all, and instead submit backtraces to a separate server, which may very well be anonymous (or optionally anonymous). See how Firefox sends crash reports, for example. But... don't hold your breath. -- Nicolás
Re: Login for bug reporting
Am 06.02.2013 18:57 schrieb Kevin Krammer: Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. Cheers, Frank
Re: Login for bug reporting
Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 06.02.2013 18:57 schrieb Kevin Krammer: Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. Regards, Myriam -- Proud member of the Amarok and KDE Community Protect your freedom and join the Fellowship of FSFE: http://www.fsfe.org Please don't send me proprietary file formats, use ISO standard ODF instead (ISO/IEC 26300)
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday 06 February 2013 22:41:25 Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 06.02.2013 18:57 schrieb Kevin Krammer: Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. +1 from me. I don't want reports from users not willing to create an account -- Martin Gräßlin
Re: Login for bug reporting
On Wednesday 06 February 2013 23:00:53 Martin Graesslin wrote: On Wednesday 06 February 2013 22:41:25 Myriam Schweingruber wrote: Hi all, On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Frank Reininghaus frank7...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 06.02.2013 18:57 schrieb Kevin Krammer: Hi folks, at FOSDEM I was approached by a person who asked me to relay his dissatisfaction with the requirement of having a KDE Bugzilla account to report crashes via the KDE crash handler dialog. The issue in his case was kind of made worse by having this obstacle appear too late, i.e. after he had followed the instructions to create a useful backtrace and had downloaded several tens of megabytes of debug symbols. Being a FOSS developer himself he said that he understands the need for having a communication channel with the reported, but just having an email address for that would be sufficient (e.g. Debian's bug tracker works that way). So the question is whether alternative login options [1] are something we could do or whether this is impossible in our setup or just something we don't want to do because of certain drawbacks. Cheers, Kevin [1] assuming that a KDE bugzilla login is nowadays a KDE Identity login, could we have something like on the Wikis, e.g. OpenID, or something comment sections of websites used, e.g. login via Facebook? considering that we get lots of duplicates for any reproducible bug, my impression is actually not that there are to many obstacles in the bug reporting process. Providing any kind of contact me via email/Facebook channel will only make it worse. I'm already spending a lot of time marking reports as duplicate/invalid or telling people that reporting bugs for KDE 4.8 or earlier is not quite as useful as they think. Please do not make it worse by lowering the bug reporting barriers. I fully agree with Frank here, we already get way enough useless reports, please don't lower the barrier even more. IMHO it is already very easy to report a bug in BKO, much easier actually than in other bug trackers out there, and, unless you find a miracle solution to increase the number of triagers at least 10x the current number, lowering the barrier would also mean more bogus and spam. Please don't make our work harder than it already is. +1 from me. I don't want reports from users not willing to create an account +1 from my side.
