Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Am 19.01.23 um 01:35 schrieb Nicolas Fella: Hi, can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold until we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? Several people already expressed concerns about this. Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same copy&paste message this care is not applied here. At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am not aware of any such announcement/discussion. For context, since not everyone may be aware of what's going on: I'm referring to the practice of pinging old bugreports with a generic "Is this still happening" message and setting the status to NEEDSINFO_WAITINGFORINFO, which will cause the bug to be closed in 30(?) days if not reset.
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi Nicolas, This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not applied. I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a priority right now for the majority. Regards, Justin On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: Hi, can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold until we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? Several people already expressed concerns about this. Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same copy&paste message this care is not applied here. At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am not aware of any such announcement/discussion. Cheers Nicolas
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi, For pim* it’s ok for me. We have a very old bug, but pim* changed a lot. Or some apps are dead (blogilo etc.) A lot of bug report are duplicated or obsolete. Thanks for doing it. Regards Le jeudi 19 janvier 2023, 04:04:45 CET Justin a écrit : > Hi Nicolas, > > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this > cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. > > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they > are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as > there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon > thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not applied. > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is > decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice > more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a > priority right now for the majority. > > Regards, > > Justin > > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: > > Hi, > > > > can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold until > > we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? Several > > people already expressed concerns about this. > > > > Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may > > close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody > > replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. > > > > Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires > > some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still > > useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same > > copy&paste message this care is not applied here. > > > > At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before > > doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am > > not aware of any such announcement/discussion. > > > > Cheers > > > > Nicolas -- Laurent Montel | laurent.mon...@kdab.com | KDE/Qt Senior Software Engineer KDAB (France) S.A.S., a KDAB Group company Tel: France +33 (0)4 90 84 08 53, http://www.kdab.fr KDAB - The Qt, C++ and OpenGL Experts
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Also, note that we can provide exceptions when doing this, like we have done with Krita, (excluded from both MR and bug report cleanup). If you would like your project to be excluded, just let us know! Thanks - Kye Potter, KDE Gardening On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 5:07 pm, Laurent Montel wrote: > Hi, > For pim* it’s ok for me. > We have a very old bug, but pim* changed a lot. > Or some apps are dead (blogilo etc.) > A lot of bug report are duplicated or obsolete. > > Thanks for doing it. > Regards > > Le jeudi 19 janvier 2023, 04:04:45 CET Justin a écrit : > > Hi Nicolas, > > > > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this > > cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. > > > > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I > > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that > > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they > > are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as > > there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon > > thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > applied. > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is > > decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice > > more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a > > priority right now for the majority. > > > > Regards, > > > > Justin > > > > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold > until > > > we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? > Several > > > people already expressed concerns about this. > > > > > > Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may > > > close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody > > > replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. > > > > > > Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires > > > some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still > > > useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the > same > > > copy&paste message this care is not applied here. > > > > > > At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before > > > doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am > > > not aware of any such announcement/discussion. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Nicolas > > > -- > Laurent Montel | laurent.mon...@kdab.com | KDE/Qt Senior Software > Engineer > KDAB (France) S.A.S., a KDAB Group company > Tel: France +33 (0)4 90 84 08 53, http://www.kdab.fr > KDAB - The Qt, C++ and OpenGL Experts > > >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
I don't think that wishlist items should be treated in the same way as actual bugs. Even if the original reporter is no longer interested in a wishlist report or is no longer contactable, the feature asked for may still be valid. For KAlarm at least, please exclude wishlist reports from gardening processes. On 19 January 2023 06:17:23 GMT, AnnoyingRains wrote: > Also, note that we can provide exceptions when doing this, like we have > done with Krita, (excluded from both MR and bug report cleanup). If you > would like your project to be excluded, just let us know! > > Thanks > - Kye Potter, KDE Gardening > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 5:07 pm, Laurent Montel wrote: > > > Hi, > > For pim* it’s ok for me. > > We have a very old bug, but pim* changed a lot. > > Or some apps are dead (blogilo etc.) > > A lot of bug report are duplicated or obsolete. > > > > Thanks for doing it. > > Regards > > > > Le jeudi 19 janvier 2023, 04:04:45 CET Justin a écrit : > > > Hi Nicolas, > > > > > > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this > > > cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. > > > > > > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I > > > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that > > > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. > > > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they > > > are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as > > > there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon > > > thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > applied. > > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is > > > decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice > > > more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a > > > priority right now for the majority. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Justin > > > > > > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold > > until > > > > we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? > > Several > > > > people already expressed concerns about this. > > > > > > > > Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may > > > > close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody > > > > replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. > > > > > > > > Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires > > > > some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still > > > > useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the > > same > > > > copy&paste message this care is not applied here. > > > > > > > > At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before > > > > doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am > > > > not aware of any such announcement/discussion. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Nicolas > > > > > > -- > > Laurent Montel | laurent.mon...@kdab.com | KDE/Qt Senior Software > > Engineer > > KDAB (France) S.A.S., a KDAB Group company > > Tel: France +33 (0)4 90 84 08 53, http://www.kdab.fr > > KDAB - The Qt, C++ and OpenGL Experts > > > > > > -- David Jarvie KAlarm author, KDE developer
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Wishlist items are already excluded for all projects. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 7:39 pm David Jarvie, wrote: > I don't think that wishlist items should be treated in the same way as > actual bugs. Even if the original reporter is no longer interested in a > wishlist report or is no longer contactable, the feature asked for may > still be valid. > > For KAlarm at least, please exclude wishlist reports from gardening > processes. > > On 19 January 2023 06:17:23 GMT, AnnoyingRains > wrote: >> >> Also, note that we can provide exceptions when doing this, like we have >> done with Krita, (excluded from both MR and bug report cleanup). If you >> would like your project to be excluded, just let us know! >> >> Thanks >> - Kye Potter, KDE Gardening >> >> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 5:07 pm, Laurent Montel wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> For pim* it’s ok for me. >>> We have a very old bug, but pim* changed a lot. >>> Or some apps are dead (blogilo etc.) >>> A lot of bug report are duplicated or obsolete. >>> >>> Thanks for doing it. >>> Regards >>> >>> Le jeudi 19 janvier 2023, 04:04:45 CET Justin a écrit : >>> > Hi Nicolas, >>> > >>> > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this >>> > cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. >>> > >>> > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I >>> > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that >>> > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. >>> > >>> > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still >>> > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if >>> they >>> > are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as >>> > there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon >>> > thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. >>> > >>> > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any >>> > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate >>> > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user >>> > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to >>> > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. >>> > >>> > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not >>> applied. >>> > >>> > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it >>> is >>> > decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to >>> entice >>> > more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a >>> > priority right now for the majority. >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Justin >>> > >>> > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: >>> > > Hi, >>> > > >>> > > can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold >>> until >>> > > we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? >>> Several >>> > > people already expressed concerns about this. >>> > > >>> > > Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We >>> may >>> > > close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody >>> > > replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. >>> > > >>> > > Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it >>> requires >>> > > some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is >>> still >>> > > useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the >>> same >>> > > copy&paste message this care is not applied here. >>> > > >>> > > At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before >>> > > doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am >>> > > not aware of any such announcement/discussion. >>> > > >>> > > Cheers >>> > > >>> > > Nicolas >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Laurent Montel | laurent.mon...@kdab.com | KDE/Qt Senior Software >>> Engineer >>> KDAB (France) S.A.S., a KDAB Group company >>> Tel: France +33 (0)4 90 84 08 53, http://www.kdab.fr >>> KDAB - The Qt, C++ and OpenGL Experts >>> >>> >>> -- > David Jarvie > KAlarm author, KDE developer >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:05 AM Justin wrote: > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they > are still valid. FWIW that probably doesn't work nearly as well as one would hope when the user is a developer. I for one just ignore the entire flood of ping comments. I'm 99% certain bugs I have reported have been closed as collateral damage. HS
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
I'll have a look when I'm back at my PC and see if I can exclude bugs reported by you. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 8:57 pm Harald Sitter, wrote: > On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:05 AM Justin wrote: > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they > > are still valid. > > FWIW that probably doesn't work nearly as well as one would hope when > the user is a developer. I for one just ignore the entire flood of > ping comments. I'm 99% certain bugs I have reported have been closed > as collateral damage. > > HS >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Actually, what if we just ignore reports that come from a *@kde.org email address? On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 9:42 pm, Justin Zobel wrote: > I'll have a look when I'm back at my PC and see if I can exclude bugs > reported by you. > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 8:57 pm Harald Sitter, wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:05 AM Justin wrote: >> > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still >> > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they >> > are still valid. >> >> FWIW that probably doesn't work nearly as well as one would hope when >> the user is a developer. I for one just ignore the entire flood of >> ping comments. I'm 99% certain bugs I have reported have been closed >> as collateral damage. >> >> HS >> >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
We can do that but not all developers use a KDE email address. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 9:15 pm AnnoyingRains, wrote: > Actually, what if we just ignore reports that come from a *@kde.org email > address? > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 9:42 pm, Justin Zobel > wrote: > >> I'll have a look when I'm back at my PC and see if I can exclude bugs >> reported by you. >> >> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 8:57 pm Harald Sitter, wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 4:05 AM Justin wrote: >>> > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still >>> > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if >>> they >>> > are still valid. >>> >>> FWIW that probably doesn't work nearly as well as one would hope when >>> the user is a developer. I for one just ignore the entire flood of >>> ping comments. I'm 99% certain bugs I have reported have been closed >>> as collateral damage. >>> >>> HS >>> >>
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi, Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: Hi Nicolas, This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved this cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. KDE consists of more than Nate tough. We discuss and "review" things in the open. I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report. The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not applied. Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a priority right now for the majority. Regards, Justin Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the initiative of cleaning up bugs. But we do need to handle this with a lot of care to avoid it backfiring. Cheers Nico On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: Hi, can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold until we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? Several people already expressed concerns about this. Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same copy&paste message this care is not applied here. At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am not aware of any such announcement/discussion. Cheers Nicolas
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
In the regard then it falls to developers with the understanding of the codebase to triage these. However it's clear due to the age of these bugs that most developers don't have time or aren't prioritising these reports. This is why I've volunteered time to try get engagement happening with community (the bug reporters) to help confirm these issues still exist and if they do, try and encourage evolvement from the project maintainers. Regards, Justin On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 9:56 pm Nicolas Fella, wrote: > Hi, > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > Hi Nicolas, > > > > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved > > this cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. > > KDE consists of more than Nate tough. We discuss and "review" things in > the open. > > > > > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I > > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that > > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report. > > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > applied. > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly > > not a priority right now for the majority. > > > > Regards, > > > > Justin > > > Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the initiative of cleaning up bugs. > But we do need to handle this with a lot of care to avoid it backfiring. > > Cheers > > Nico > > > > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold until > >> we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? Several > >> people already expressed concerns about this. > >> > >> Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may > >> close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody > >> replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. > >> > >> Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires > >> some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still > >> useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same > >> copy&paste message this care is not applied here. > >> > >> At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before > >> doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am > >> not aware of any such announcement/discussion. > >> > >> Cheers > >> > >> Nicolas > >> >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Involvement not evolvement. On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 10:06 pm Justin Zobel, wrote: > In the regard then it falls to developers with the understanding of the > codebase to triage these. > > However it's clear due to the age of these bugs that most developers don't > have time or aren't prioritising these reports. > > This is why I've volunteered time to try get engagement happening with > community (the bug reporters) to help confirm these issues still exist and > if they do, try and encourage evolvement from the project maintainers. > > Regards, > > Justin > > On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, 9:56 pm Nicolas Fella, wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: >> > Hi Nicolas, >> > >> > This has been discussed with Nate Graham directly who has approved >> > this cleanup of Bugzilla including the messaging behind it. >> >> KDE consists of more than Nate tough. We discuss and "review" things in >> the open. >> >> > >> > I am happy to discuss any concerns that people have around this. I >> > understand Krita requested we exclude them from any gardening and that >> > has been done, however this is the only feedback I have received. >> > >> > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still >> > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if >> > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps >> > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the >> > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. >> >> Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to >> their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the >> report. >> >> > >> > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any >> > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate >> > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user >> > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to >> > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. >> > >> > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not >> > applied. >> >> Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of >> understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no >> simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. >> Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into >> account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. >> >> > >> > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it >> > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to >> > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly >> > not a priority right now for the majority. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Justin >> > >> Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the initiative of cleaning up bugs. >> But we do need to handle this with a lot of care to avoid it backfiring. >> >> Cheers >> >> Nico >> >> >> > On 19/1/23 11:05, Nicolas Fella wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> can we please put the effort of "gardening" old bugreports on hold >> until >> >> we figured out whether this is actually something we want to do? >> Several >> >> people already expressed concerns about this. >> >> >> >> Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may >> >> close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody >> >> replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. >> >> >> >> Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires >> >> some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still >> >> useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the >> same >> >> copy&paste message this care is not applied here. >> >> >> >> At minimum such initiatives should be announced and discussed before >> >> doing them, to allow people to give their input on the proposal. I am >> >> not aware of any such announcement/discussion. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> >> Nicolas >> >> >> >
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hello folks, I did approve this initiative and I do think there's value to it, but of course we can definitely have this discussion in the open and tweak its parameters, or end it if we think it's destroying more value than it's creating. I totally agree with Nicolas that in an ideal world, all bug triaging would be done on a bug-by-bug-basis, and this is what I personally do with products I'm familiar with and have some technical knowledge about. But I also can't blame anyone else who doesn't do this, because manual bug triaging is a tedious, laborious, time-consuming, energy-draining task. It's hard enough for new bugs, and for old bugs which were poorly-handled in the past, lack key information, or are full of angry users, it can be even more unpleasant. In my experience mentoring volunteer bug triagers over the past 5 years, few stick around for manual bug triage longer than about 3 months. It's not fun and it feels like work. It's hard enough even to get maintainers to do it consistently, for the same completely justifiable reasons. I have tremendous respect for those who grit their teeth and do it anyway. But it's currently not enough to handle the volume of bug reports we get daily, or reduce the backlog of old un-handled bugs. This causes Bugzilla's signal-to-noise ratio to worsen over time. The automatic bug triage initiative emerged to try to address that. If our consensus ends up being to terminate it, I'd like it to be because more folks are stepping up to make manual bug triage a part of their daily routine--and not just for new bugs, but for old ones too. And on a consistent basis, not just once or twice. The more human labor we get consistently working on the problem, the less drive there will be for machines to do it. Here's our documentation on how to do it: https://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Guidelines_and_HOWTOs/Bug_triaging If that doesn't happen, I think we need to consider other options for bug management, such as doing it automatically or hiring more people to do it manually. Let me know your thoughts! Nate
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
On 1/19/23 02:35, Nicolas Fella wrote:> Properly cleaning up old bugreports is important. However, it requires some level of care and expertise to judge whether a bugreport is still useful. Judging by the volume of bugreports that is pinged with the same copy&paste message this care is not applied here. For projects like kwin it's unrealistic to go through all bug reports. Just for the record, there are currently almost 1.3k open bug reports filed for kwin. Going through old bug reports is not fun! After triaging about 20 bug reports, I already feel exhausted. It's a time and energy consuming process that kills future motivation to do bug triaging again. Now scale that to 1000 bug reports! I have no doubt that there are old bug reports that are actually still valid and useful. But, from my personal experience, the ratio of such good bug reports to "noise" is small. > Improperly applied such mass changes can do more harm than good. We may > close bugreports that are actually still useful just because nobody > replied on then in a relatively short timeframe. IMHO it makes sense to poke old bug reports (say 1 year old or so) My two cents, Vlad
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi, Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report. Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to speak out in favor of something that is already happening. > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > applied. > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly > > not a priority right now for the majority. Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. Thank you for doing it! Cheers, Johannes
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: > Hi, > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to > > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report. > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like it. > Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to > speak out in favor of something that is already happening. > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > > applied. > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional > nudge > on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they are > still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I > don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an > absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your attic, > you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment as > yourself. > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it > > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly > > > not a priority right now for the majority. > > Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. Thank > you for doing it! I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and the automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed helps a lot. -- Regards Thomas Baumgart - With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled into the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis Kabaila †) - signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate you. Exclusions so far: - okteta - krita - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org Thanks again for the feedback! On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart wrote: > > On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > > > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > > > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to > > > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the > > > report. > > > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like > > it. > > Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to > > speak out in favor of something that is already happening. > > > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > > > applied. > > > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. > > > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional > > nudge > > on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they > > are > > still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I > > don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. > > > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an > > absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your attic, > > you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment as > > yourself. > > > > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it > > > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > > > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly > > > > not a priority right now for the majority. > > > > Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. Thank > > you for doing it! > > I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and the > automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed helps a lot. > > > -- > > Regards > > Thomas Baumgart > > - > With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. > It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled into > the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis Kabaila †) > -
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:57 PM Justin Zobel wrote: > > Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > > Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to > resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not > been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product > out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > accommodate you. > > Exclusions so far: > - okteta > - krita > - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > Hold up, what? Why is Harald being excluded? -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
He mentioned that the activity he was getting on the reports was just noise to him and was ignoring them. So instead of causing more noise for him, I have excluded reports made by him. If he'd like to continue receiving them I'm happy to work on them. On 28/1/23 08:51, Neal Gompa wrote: On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 4:57 PM Justin Zobel wrote: Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate you. Exclusions so far: - okteta - krita - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org Hold up, what? Why is Harald being excluded?
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hello, > Exclusions so far: > - okteta > - krita > - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > > Thanks again for the feedback! Can you also add Falkon to the exclusion list? There are not that many bugs nor people working on it and at the moment it is easy to browse the bugs. Also I do not know if this was discussed, but some info message on the bugzilla would be nice, if this project is managed by this BugBot or not. Thank you for the help. Best regards, Juraj. On piatok 27. januára 2023 22:56:09 CET Justin Zobel wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > > Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to > resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not > been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product > out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > accommodate you. > > Exclusions so far: > - okteta > - krita > - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > > Thanks again for the feedback! > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart wrote: > > On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > > > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are > > > > > still > > > > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in > > > > > determining if > > > > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and > > > > > helps > > > > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > > > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in > > > > > years. > > > > > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being > > > > done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the > > > > content of the report.> > > > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who > > > don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few > > > people will take the time to speak out in favor of something that > > > is already happening. > > > > > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not > > > > > had any > > > > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to > > > > > reinvigorate > > > > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If > > > > > the user > > > > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug > > > > > is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug > > > > > Janitor. > > > > > > > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care > > > > > is not > > > > > applied. > > > > > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is > > > > no > > > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good > > > > enough. > > > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority > > > > into > > > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently > > > > applied. > > > > > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an > > > occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over > > > old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody > > > else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some > > > bug that could be closed or fixed. > > > > > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal > > > knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you > > > want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does > > > not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. > > > > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. > > > > > However if it > > > > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will > > > > > need to > > > > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is > > > > > clearly > > > > > not a priority right now for the majority. > > > > > > Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla > > > gardening. Thank you for doing it! > > > > I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and > > the automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed > > helps a lot. > > > > > > -- > > > > Regards > > > > Thomas Baumgart > > > > - > > With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. > > It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled > > into the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis > > Kabaila †) > > - signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi Juraj, Of course we are happy to exclude Falkon from the list. Regards, Justin On 28/1/23 23:45, Juraj Oravec wrote: Hello, Exclusions so far: - okteta - krita - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org Thanks again for the feedback! Can you also add Falkon to the exclusion list? There are not that many bugs nor people working on it and at the moment it is easy to browse the bugs. Also I do not know if this was discussed, but some info message on the bugzilla would be nice, if this project is managed by this BugBot or not. Thank you for the help. Best regards, Juraj. On piatok 27. januára 2023 22:56:09 CET Justin Zobel wrote: Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate you. Exclusions so far: - okteta - krita - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org Thanks again for the feedback! On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart wrote: On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: Hi, Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report.> > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to speak out in favor of something that is already happening. The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not applied. Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a priority right now for the majority. Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. Thank you for doing it! I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and the automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed helps a lot. -- Regards Thomas Baumgart - With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled into the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis Kabaila †) -
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Just to clarify, should we just exclude Falkon from bug report gardening or also from merge request gardening too? Merge request gardening is pinging MRs with no activity for 30 days, then closing if there is no response even two months after the ping message. On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 1:18 PM Justin wrote: > > Hi Juraj, > > Of course we are happy to exclude Falkon from the list. > > Regards, > > Justin > > On 28/1/23 23:45, Juraj Oravec wrote: > > Hello, > > > >> Exclusions so far: > >> - okteta > >> - krita > >> - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > >> > >> Thanks again for the feedback! > > Can you also add Falkon to the exclusion list? > > There are not that many bugs nor people working on it and at the moment > > it is easy to browse the bugs. > > > > Also I do not know if this was discussed, but some info message on the > > bugzilla would be nice, if this project is managed by this BugBot or > > not. > > > > Thank you for the help. > > > > Best regards, > > Juraj. > > > > > > > > > > > > On piatok 27. januára 2023 22:56:09 CET Justin Zobel wrote: > >> Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > >> > >> Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to > >> resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not > >> been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product > >> out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > >> manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > >> accommodate you. > >> > >> Exclusions so far: > >> - okteta > >> - krita > >> - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > >> > >> Thanks again for the feedback! > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart > > wrote: > >>> On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl > > wrote: > Hi, > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas > > Fella: > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > >> The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are > >> still > >> relevant by involving the users who reported them in > >> determining if > >> they are still valid. This increases community involvement and > >> helps > >> KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > >> thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in > >> years. > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being > > done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the > > content of the report.> > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who > don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few > people will take the time to speak out in favor of something that > is already happening. > > >> The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not > >> had any > >> activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to > >> reinvigorate > >> discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If > >> the user > >> does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug > >> is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug > >> Janitor. > >> > >> I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care > >> is not > >> applied. > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is > > no > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good > > enough. > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority > > into > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently > > applied. > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an > occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over > old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody > else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some > bug that could be closed or fixed. > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal > knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you > want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does > not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. > > >> I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. > >> However if it > >> is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will > >> need to > >> entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is > >> clearly > >> not a priority right now for the majority. > Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla > gardening. Thank you for doing it! > >>> I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and > >>> the automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed > >>> helps a lot. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Thomas Baumgart > >>> > >>>
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hello, > Just to clarify, should we just exclude Falkon from bug report > gardening or also from merge request gardening too? > > Merge request gardening is pinging MRs with no activity for 30 days, > then closing if there is no response even two months after the ping > message. Good idea, I would also exclude Falkon from MR-Bot. Thank you, Juraj. > On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 1:18 PM Justin wrote: > > Hi Juraj, > > > > Of course we are happy to exclude Falkon from the list. > > > > Regards, > > > > Justin > > > > On 28/1/23 23:45, Juraj Oravec wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > > >> Exclusions so far: > > >> - okteta > > >> - krita > > >> - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > > >> > > >> Thanks again for the feedback! > > > > > > Can you also add Falkon to the exclusion list? > > > There are not that many bugs nor people working on it and at the > > > moment it is easy to browse the bugs. > > > > > > Also I do not know if this was discussed, but some info message on > > > the bugzilla would be nice, if this project is managed by this > > > BugBot or not. > > > > > > Thank you for the help. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Juraj. > > > > > > On piatok 27. januára 2023 22:56:09 CET Justin Zobel wrote: > > >> Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > > >> > > >> Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan > > >> to > > >> resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have > > >> not > > >> been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your > > >> product > > >> out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > > >> manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > > >> accommodate you. > > >> > > >> Exclusions so far: > > >> - okteta > > >> - krita > > >> - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > > >> > > >> Thanks again for the feedback! > > >> > > >> On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart > > >> > > > > > > wrote: > > >>> On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl > > > > > > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas > > > > > > Fella: > > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > >> The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are > > >> still > > >> relevant by involving the users who reported them in > > >> determining if > > >> they are still valid. This increases community involvement > > >> and > > >> helps > > >> KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review > > >> the > > >> thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in > > >> years. > > > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes > > > being > > > done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the > > > content of the report.> > > > > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who > > don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few > > people will take the time to speak out in favor of something > > that > > is already happening. > > > > >> The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not > > >> had any > > >> activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to > > >> reinvigorate > > >> discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If > > >> the user > > >> does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug > > >> is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug > > >> Janitor. > > >> > > >> I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care > > >> is not > > >> applied. > > > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level > > > of > > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there > > > is > > > no > > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good > > > enough. > > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority > > > into > > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently > > > applied. > > > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an > > occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over > > old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody > > else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some > > bug that could be closed or fixed. > > > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal > > knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you > > want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does > > not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. > > > > >> I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. > > >> However if it > > >> is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will > > >> need to > > >> entice more people in sorting old bug
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Please exclude from the bug report reminder: koko tokodon kalendar kde.org planet.kde.org www.kde.org season.kde.org KDE Mediawiki and any bug reported by myself as well as the following projects for the MR reminder: koko tokodon kalendar arianna vail arkade basically everything in the websites namespace and any MR created by myself I'm getting already way too many emails and I have an hard time keeping up with them so if I can avoid getting more of them, that would be good. Cheers, Carl --- Original Message --- Le vendredi 27 janvier 2023 à 10:56 PM, Justin Zobel a écrit : > Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > > Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to > resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not > been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product > out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > accommodate you. > > Exclusions so far: > - okteta > - krita > - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > > Thanks again for the feedback! > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart t...@net-bembel.de wrote: > > > On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > > > > > > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > > > > > > > > The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > > > > > relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > > > > > they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > > > > > KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > > > > > thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to > > > > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the > > > > report. > > > > > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like > > > it. > > > Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to > > > speak out in favor of something that is already happening. > > > > > > > > The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > > > > > activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > > > > > discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > > > > > does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to > > > > > NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > > > > > > > > > > I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > > > > > applied. > > > > > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > > > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > > > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > > > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. > > > > > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional > > > nudge > > > on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they > > > are > > > still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I > > > don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. > > > > > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an > > > absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your > > > attic, > > > you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment > > > as > > > yourself. > > > > > > > > I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it > > > > > is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > > > > > entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly > > > > > not a priority right now for the majority. > > > > > > Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. > > > Thank > > > you for doing it! > > > > I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and the > > automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed helps a lot. > > > > -- > > > > Regards > > > > Thomas Baumgart > > > > - > > With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. > > It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled into > > the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis Kabaila †) > > -
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
We can turn it off for bugs reported by you, but I'm not sure "I'm getting too many emails" is a good reason to turn it off for whole products. These products aren't owned by you; they're community property and it's important for them to get triaged for the benefit of everyone. Nobody wins when Bugzilla fails to reflect an accurate state of reality. If those products are being actively triaged by you or someone else, that's a good reason. But if they're not, and stale bug reports and merge requests are piling up, that's a problem that needs to be fixed, and ignoring emails or preventing the Gardening team from doing part of their job isn't going to fix it. Nate On 1/29/23 02:23, Carl Schwan wrote: Please exclude from the bug report reminder: koko tokodon kalendar kde.org planet.kde.org www.kde.org season.kde.org KDE Mediawiki and any bug reported by myself as well as the following projects for the MR reminder: koko tokodon kalendar arianna vail arkade basically everything in the websites namespace and any MR created by myself I'm getting already way too many emails and I have an hard time keeping up with them so if I can avoid getting more of them, that would be good. Cheers, Carl --- Original Message --- Le vendredi 27 janvier 2023 à 10:56 PM, Justin Zobel a écrit : Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to accommodate you. Exclusions so far: - okteta - krita - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org Thanks again for the feedback! On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart t...@net-bembel.de wrote: On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: Hi, Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done to their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the report. Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't like it. Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the time to speak out in favor of something that is already happening. The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set to NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not applied. Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an occasional nudge on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if they are still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes sure I don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge is an absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your attic, you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional attachment as yourself. I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if it is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clearly not a priority right now for the majority. Speaking for KPhotoAlbum, I really appreciate the bugzilla gardening. Thank you for doing it! I can second that for the KMyMoney project. An occasional poke and the automated cleanup when no response arrives where it is needed helps a lot. -- Regards Thomas Baumgart - With every day I come closer to the grave and learn something new. It all happens because I have wandered around too much and stumbled into the Linux world - which is a fantastic place to be! (Algis Kabaila †) -
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
On zondag 29 januari 2023 10:29:10 CET Nate Graham wrote: > get triaged The problem is that the bug gardening process does no triaging, it asks reporters to triage. Halla Rempt
Re: "Gardening" old bugreports
Hi, Please exclude KTimeTracker. Thanks! On Sun, Jan 29, 2023 at 10:29 AM Nate Graham wrote: > We can turn it off for bugs reported by you, but I'm not sure "I'm > getting too many emails" is a good reason to turn it off for whole > products. These products aren't owned by you; they're community property > and it's important for them to get triaged for the benefit of everyone. > Nobody wins when Bugzilla fails to reflect an accurate state of reality. > > If those products are being actively triaged by you or someone else, > that's a good reason. But if they're not, and stale bug reports and > merge requests are piling up, that's a problem that needs to be fixed, > and ignoring emails or preventing the Gardening team from doing part of > their job isn't going to fix it. > > Nate > > > On 1/29/23 02:23, Carl Schwan wrote: > > Please exclude from the bug report reminder: > > > > koko > > tokodon > > kalendar > > kde.org > > planet.kde.org > > www.kde.org > > season.kde.org > > KDE Mediawiki > > and any bug reported by myself > > > > as well as the following projects for the MR reminder: > > > > koko > > tokodon > > kalendar > > arianna > > vail > > arkade > > basically everything in the websites namespace > > and any MR created by myself > > > > I'm getting already way too many emails and I have an hard time keeping > up > > with them so if I can avoid getting more of them, that would be good. > > > > Cheers, > > Carl > > > > --- Original Message --- > > Le vendredi 27 janvier 2023 à 10:56 PM, Justin Zobel < > justin.zo...@gmail.com> a écrit : > > > > > >> Thanks for the feedback, everyone. > >> > >> Given the distribution of positive vs negative feedback, we plan to > >> resume automatic bug triage of old non-wishlist bugs that have not > >> been updated in over 2 years. If you would like to opt your product > >> out of this initiative because you're able to keep on top of the > >> manual bug triage work, please let us know and we'll be happy to > >> accommodate you. > >> > >> Exclusions so far: > >> - okteta > >> - krita > >> - any bug reported by sit...@kde.org > >> > >> Thanks again for the feedback! > >> > >> On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:10 PM Thomas Baumgart t...@net-bembel.de > wrote: > >> > >>> On Donnerstag, 19. Januar 2023 22:39:45 CET Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote: > >>> > Hi, > > Am Donnerstag, 19. Jänner 2023, 12:26:08 CET schrieb Nicolas Fella: > > > Am 19.01.23 um 04:04 schrieb Justin: > > > >> The gardening team aims to find out if the bug reports are still > >> relevant by involving the users who reported them in determining if > >> they are still valid. This increases community involvement and helps > >> KDE as there isn't anywhere near enough manpower to review the > >> thousands upon thousands of bugs that haven't been touched in years. > > > > Anecdotally many people don't like such automated changes being done > to > > their bugreports that don't actually engage with the content of the > report. > > Well, anecdotally you will mostly get feedback from people who don't > like it. > Unless something is exceptionally great, few people will take the > time to > speak out in favor of something that is already happening. > > >> The bugs that we are interacting with are ones that have not had any > >> activity for over 2 years. We are simply trying to reinvigorate > >> discussion on those bugs to see if they are still valid. If the user > >> does not reply within the standard 30 day period after a bug is set > to > >> NEEDSINFO, it is automatically closed by the Bug Janitor. > >> > >> I am not simply closing bugs, so I do take offense that care is not > >> applied. > > > > Properly "triaging" old reports requires at least some level of > > understanding of the project, codebase etc. I'm afraid there is no > > simple solution to that and rule-based approaches aren't good enough. > > Even taking things like CONFIRMED status or wishlist priority into > > account assumes that these have actually been consistently applied. > > As a maintainer on a small project, I'm quite happy to get an > occasional nudge > on old reports. Yes, I do occasionally go over old reports to see if > they are > still valid, but having somebody else doing this methodically makes > sure I > don't gloss over some bug that could be closed or fixed. > > Having this done by someone else without too much internal knowledge > is an > absolute plus in my opinion. After all, if you want to clean up your > attic, > you try to find a helper who does not have the same emotional > attachment as > yourself. > > >> I will halt it until it is approved by more developers. However if > it > >> is decided that it isn't wanted then the KDE as a whole will need to > >> entice more people in sorting old bugs individually as it is clear
