KR> Stick forces
My Cassutt is probably close to a KR. I have a friend with a Lancair 235 sporting an 0-290. He and I are both over 200lbs resulting in a rearward cg.. When I first flew the aircraft it took a concerted effort to to not cause pilot induced oscillations. To fly it required "caging" the stick until flying for a few minutes. I would not own an aircraft that sensitive in pitch. I extended my KR2SS 28 inches (two extra bays) to insure a stable cross country airplane. Bob Johnson Oregon, USA badbob0...@embarqmail.com
KR> Stick forces
Yes, a Monnett Moni motorglider. Fly with your fingertip. Ron --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Dan Heath wrote: > From: Dan Heath > Subject: RE: KR> Stick forces > To: "'KRnet'" > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 2:06 AM > I am just curious. Has anyone > ever flown a plane that has lighter stick > forces than a KR, fly by wire does not count??? > > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics > See you at the 2010 - KR Gathering in Richmond, Ky - I39 > There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the > time for Flying > has begun. > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> Stick forces
I am just curious. Has anyone ever flown a plane that has lighter stick forces than a KR, fly by wire does not count??? See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2010 - KR Gathering in Richmond, Ky - I39 There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for Flying has begun. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
KR> Stick forces
No, some of us(me) are just a little denser than others:-) Fred Johnson Reno, NV Mark L wrote: I guess I'm not very good at explaining things, but that's exactly what I was trying to say. Except I used "3 or 4 inches" and you used 3.5".
KR> Stick forces
Fred Johnson wrote: > If your stick is 12" but your attachment point is say 3.5" (from center of > torque tube) wouldn't the forces be 12 divided 3.5 =3.4 times what you > feel > at the end of the stick? I guess I'm not very good at explaining things, but that's exactly what I was trying to say. Except I used "3 or 4 inches" and you used 3.5". Mark Langford N56ML "at" hiwaay.net website at http://www.N56ML.com
KR> Stick forces
Mark Langford wrote: > > I designed the ailerons to have the same surface area at the same effective > moment arm about the fuselage roll axis > > Mark, I'm not exactly certain I understand this measurement. Could you give me a brief explanation? Thanks. -- Glenn Martin Owner KR2 N1333A Biloxi, MS, 39532 rep...@martekmississippi.com
KR> Stick forces
Hi, I found the following article on the web. http://www.sportplanedesign.com/pdf/LSA_Specs_26-31_SportPilot_v2.pdf It states that for Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) the maximum allowable short-term stick force is 45 lbs and the prolonged is 5.2 lbs. For FAR Part 23 certified aircraft its 60 lbs and 10 lbs respectfully. This can be used as a basis if you can't find anything else. Bob Belgau Ft. Pierce, FL On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Fred Johnson wrote: > I looked at the archives and not much more was said about the stick force > meter? > Does anyone have an idea of what the actual stick forces are on the KR? > > Fred Johnson > Reno, NV > > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html >
KR> Stick forces
What about the leverage factor of the stick itself? If your stick in 12" but your attachment point is say 3.5" (from center of torque tube) wouldn't the forces be 12 divided 3.5 =3.4 times what you feel at the end of the stick? Fred Johnson Reno, NV Mark L wrote? Don't forget the ratio of the stick pivot point to the bellcrank attachment points is also a factor. It's probably 3:1 or 4:1 depending on how long the stick is, so a 5 pound pull could induce 20 pounds of tension in the cable, but that's still way under 80 pounds.
KR> Stick forces
Fred Johnson wrote: > My thought was a cable with the capacity of 80# would be enough, as I > think > that would be two fisted flying:-) Don't forget the ratio of the stick pivot point to the bellcrank attachment points is also a factor. It's probably 3:1 or 4:1 depending on how long the stick is, so a 5 pound pull could induce 20 pounds of tension in the cable, but that's still way under 80 pounds. And my control system and ailerons are unlike any other KR that I know of, but I designed the ailerons to have the same surface area at the same effective moment arm about the fuselage roll axis, so it's probably very similar...except for the airfoil cusp, which is another factor that could drive up my stick forces over a plans-built KR2S Mark Langford n5...@hiwaay.net website www.n56ml.com
KR> Stick forces
At 01:05 PM 1/18/2010, you wrote: >I ask because I am considering a change in aileron controls. I was >considering a push/pull cable. +++ Just make sure the system you intend to use can be adjusted for "zero" slop in the system to eliminate any possibilities of control surface flutter. If you can lock the stick and have any movement at all at the control surface, that's too much. Larry Flesner
KR> Stick forces
Thanks Mark! I ask because I am considering a change in aileron controls. I was considering a push/pull cable. I can find them rated from 40# to 200# depending on lengths and total movement required. The cable would be connected to the control stick and connect directly to the ailerons via rod bearings. My thought was a cable with the capacity of 80# would be enough, as I think that would be two fisted flying:-) Any thoughts? Fred Johnson Reno, NV Mark L wrote: Sid Wood brought one to the Gathering, and I flew with it in my plane. I don't remember the exact number (maybe Sid does), but I believe is was a pound or less is all you need to make the plane climb hard, and it's probably closer to 4-5 pounds on turns. Stick force on turns is highly dependent on airspeed...the faster I go, the more force it takes, less so with elevator.
KR> Stick forces
Fred Johnson wrote: >I looked at the archives and not much more was said about the stick force > meter? Sid Wood brought one to the Gathering, and I flew with it in my plane. I don't remember the exact number (maybe Sid does), but I believe is was a pound or less is all you need to make the plane climb hard, and it's probably closer to 4-5 pounds on turns. Stick force on turns is highly dependent on airspeed...the faster I go, the more force it takes, less so with elevator. This sounds like light stick forces, and it probably is, but a couple of minutes of KR time is all you need to get used to it. Some folks pick it up immediately, and some try to treat it like a DC-3 and overcontrol, but I'd say on average it's a couple of minutes and you're good to go. Mark Langford n5...@hiwaay.net website www.n56ml.com
KR> Stick forces
I looked at the archives and not much more was said about the stick force meter? Does anyone have an idea of what the actual stick forces are on the KR? Fred Johnson Reno, NV
KR> Stick Forces
...what can be done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to > PIO. Has any one made the elevator smaller? I know the hoz stab has been made larger (giving same effect? as making elevator smaller), but in looking at aircraft tails most seem to have 2/3 non movement and 1/3 moveable do we need that much elevator area? Bill White VA
KR> Stick Forces
The KR has been around for almost 35 years and that subject has been discussed many times for almost as many years. Once you fly it for a while, it will not be a problem just like it is, in fact, you might just like it. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building is OVER. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC ---Original Message--- what can be done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to > PIO.
KR> Stick Forces
Interesting! Can these be used in lieu of mass balance? Regards, Peter Wastney - Original Message - From: "Ronald R.Eason" To: "'KRnet'" Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:34 AM Subject: RE: KR> Stick Forces > Some people think it's a matter of getting use to the sensitivity. > > However, you could install a self contained Velocity & Feed Controller on > the linkage which makes it harder to move the sick but will not desensitize > the motion. The device is force adjustable and self contained. Check one out > at www.acecontrols.com > > > > Ronald R. Eason Sr. > President / CEO > Ph: 816-468-4091 > Fax: 816-468-5465 > http://www.jrl-engineering.com > Our Attitude Makes The Difference! > > > -Original Message- > From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf > Of Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN > Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 1:14 PM > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Stick Forces > > ...what can be done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. > > 1. You could balance the elevator. The extra mass may slow down > jerking around for PIO. Helps with flutter control also. > 2. Move the elevator cables closer together on the stick and/or move > the cables on the elevator bell crank further apart. That means more stick > movement for less elevator movement. Might not be able to get full elevator > travel with this change. > 3. Put some centering springs in the elevator circuit. Might get some > oscillation or flutter in rough air. > 4. Make the Trim Tab into an anti-servo tab so that the tab moves in > the direction of the elevator movement. That will tend to center the > elevator into the air stream. The effect will be exponential for stick > forces. Take care with this change; you could get some bad flutter if the > servo is set to aggressive. And even if the elevator is mass balanced. > 5. Be certain the CG is towards the forward end of range. Aft CG can > make the aircraft non-controllable in pitch. > 6. Reprogram the flight control computer between the headset. Skill > goes a long way here. A smooth, easy touch is required. > > Sid Wood > Tri-gear KR-2 N6242 > Mechanicsville, MD USA > sidney.w...@l-3com.com > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.7/379 - Release Date: 29/06/2006 >
KR> Stick Forces
Hi all, Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be done to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work.
KR> Stick Forces
Wladimir: Perhaps some creative ways to place springs in the system to create a false load on the stick? This would of course add weight and complexity and there would also be a permanent load on the structure where ever the spring was anchored. Good or bad I am not sure but i would think it could be done in an easy to undo way and you should be able to test it with out leaving the ground.. Don Wladimir Kummer de Paula wrote: > Hi all, > > Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would > incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Stick Forces
I think that I will take this in a different direction. I would not change the sensitivity on my KR for love or money. I became comfortable with the elevator with inn the first couple landings. And in fact Mark Langford and I had recently talked about how stiff the ailerons were at speed with the new airfoil. Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA. joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:40:43 -0300 Wladimir Kummer de Paula writes: > Hi all, > > Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would > > incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be > done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less > prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work.
KR> Stick Forces
Make the stick longer thus requiring more movement of the hand/arm, if you hold it at the top, to move the elevator and ailerons. Once you get the feel of the plane, lower your hand on the stick and fly with your finger tips. On smooth days, I generally only have my thumb and forefinger on my stick and only move my fingers to move the plane. Once you find the length you like after some flights you could cut the stick off to your preference. Mark Jones (N886MJ) Wales, WI Web site: www.flykr2s.com Mailto:flyk...@wi.rr.com Wladimir Kummer de Paula wrote: > Hi all, > > Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would > incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Stick Forces
...what can be done to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. 1. You could balance the elevator. The extra mass may slow down jerking around for PIO. Helps with flutter control also. 2. Move the elevator cables closer together on the stick and/or move the cables on the elevator bell crank further apart. That means more stick movement for less elevator movement. Might not be able to get full elevator travel with this change. 3. Put some centering springs in the elevator circuit. Might get some oscillation or flutter in rough air. 4. Make the Trim Tab into an anti-servo tab so that the tab moves in the direction of the elevator movement. That will tend to center the elevator into the air stream. The effect will be exponential for stick forces. Take care with this change; you could get some bad flutter if the servo is set to aggressive. And even if the elevator is mass balanced. 5. Be certain the CG is towards the forward end of range. Aft CG can make the aircraft non-controllable in pitch. 6. Reprogram the flight control computer between the headset. Skill goes a long way here. A smooth, easy touch is required. Sid Wood Tri-gear KR-2 N6242 Mechanicsville, MD USA sidney.w...@l-3com.com
KR> Stick Forces
Not if it's an ANTI servo. This is what I had planned for my project, wherever it is now . I agree with item 6 also. Ron Freiberger mail to ronandmartha at earthlink.net -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ 4. Make the Trim Tab into an anti-servo tab so that the tab moves in the direction of the elevator movement. That will tend to center the elevator into the air stream. The effect will be exponential for stick forces. Take care with this change; you could get some bad flutter if the servo is set to aggressive. And even if the elevator is mass balanced.
KR> Stick Forces
Some people think it's a matter of getting use to the sensitivity. However, you could install a self contained Velocity & Feed Controller on the linkage which makes it harder to move the sick but will not desensitize the motion. The device is force adjustable and self contained. Check one out at www.acecontrols.com Ronald R. Eason Sr. President / CEO Ph: 816-468-4091 Fax: 816-468-5465 http://www.jrl-engineering.com Our Attitude Makes The Difference! -Original Message- From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 1:14 PM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: KR> Stick Forces ...what can be done to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. 1. You could balance the elevator. The extra mass may slow down jerking around for PIO. Helps with flutter control also. 2. Move the elevator cables closer together on the stick and/or move the cables on the elevator bell crank further apart. That means more stick movement for less elevator movement. Might not be able to get full elevator travel with this change. 3. Put some centering springs in the elevator circuit. Might get some oscillation or flutter in rough air. 4. Make the Trim Tab into an anti-servo tab so that the tab moves in the direction of the elevator movement. That will tend to center the elevator into the air stream. The effect will be exponential for stick forces. Take care with this change; you could get some bad flutter if the servo is set to aggressive. And even if the elevator is mass balanced. 5. Be certain the CG is towards the forward end of range. Aft CG can make the aircraft non-controllable in pitch. 6. Reprogram the flight control computer between the headset. Skill goes a long way here. A smooth, easy touch is required. Sid Wood Tri-gear KR-2 N6242 Mechanicsville, MD USA sidney.w...@l-3com.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR> Stick Forces
I believe that if you go with #5 and #6, that you will have no problem with PIO. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building is OVER. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC ---Original Message--- 5. Be certain the CG is towards the forward end of range. Aft CG can make the aircraft non-controllable in pitch. 6. Reprogram the flight control computer between the headset. Skill goes a long way here. A smooth, easy touch is required. Sid Wood
KR> Stick Forces
> >Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would >incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be done >to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less prone to >PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. ++ While many suggestions have been made and most of them may help eliminate PIO, the only solution you really need is to insure your arm is supported to eliminated any movement and then fly with wrist action alone. Your thumb and several fingers are all you really need once you are airborne. Control forces are so light and the range of stick movement is so small that you can/will easily over control without your arm immobilized until you adjust to the sensitivity. I have dual sticks and my arm rest on my leg. I've had no trouble ,even on the first flight and I wouldn't change the way it flies for any reason. Larry Flesner - 225 hours and still grinnin'
KR> Stick Forces
I started building a KR-1 in 1974 and built the fuselage and tail and wing spars and had it on the gear and my piloet budies said i would get it into a PIO and kill myself so I stoped. One of our sailplane piolets got a 126 in a PIO on final and did hit his head on the aide rail and did die, maybe that gave me second thoughts. Many years later I read about Bill Rents KR-1 and all the fun he had in the 25 years he flew it and it made me sick knowing all the fun I had missed. The point is he taxied it for about ten hours to get the feel of pitch on the main gear near flight speed before he flew it. Get the pitch feel before you fly it and I am sure you will love it the way it is. You could also modify the horizontal tail (reduce the elevator area and increase the stablelizer area like Troy Pettiway airplane) Jim On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:40:43 -0300 Wladimir Kummer de Paula writes: > Hi all, > > Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would > > incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be > done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less > prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > >
KR> Stick Forces
If you think this will be a problem? go to www.KRnet.org and look at the KR's that are flying especially Troy Petteway's photo of the horizontal tail and read what he done to solve that very problem when he rebuilt is plane. also look at Bill Rents' KR-1 website. Jim On Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:40:43 -0300 Wladimir Kummer de Paula writes: > Hi all, > > Although this topic is not specifically KR related I think it would > > incite some discussion. Once you have your plane ready what can be > done > to raise the stick forces, mainly the elevator, to make it less > prone to > PIO. Also, something like a exponential command would also work. > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > >
KR> Stick Forces
I agree with most KR guys - it flies great just as is - you get used to it real fast - makes a 150 feel like a dumptruck though Bill and 41768
KR> stick forces
Make the stick longer than the plans. It will slow everything down. Bob Clark Ankeny Iowa - Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
KR> stick forces.
For you lucky ones that are flying already. So how much resistance in our chosen little birds stick is there? What kind of pressure from the elevator? I have read there is next to nothing in the ailerons. How about the tail? What kind of back pressure do you feel thru the pedals? Steve McGee Endeavor Wi. USA Building a KR2S widened. lmc...@maqs.net
KR> stick forces.
>For you lucky ones that are flying already. So how much resistance in our chosen little birds stick is there? What kind of pressure from the elevator? I have read there is next to nothing in the ailerons. How about the tail? What kind of back pressure do you feel thru the pedals? >>Steve McGee I can't give you an exact measurement in pounds of force but I can give you my general impression. On a scale where +10 is the average Cessna/Piper and 0 is no force at all: Mooney +20 (it drives like a truck) Cessna / Piper +10 Cub's, Champ, etc. +6 /+8 T-Craft +4 /+5 Acro Sport +2 /+3 KR +1 In flight at cruise I don't really feel any rudder pressure and often find that the weight of my feet on the peddles can throw the ball off center if I don't watch what I'm doing. I will notice the ball off center, take both feet of the rudder peddles, and the ball returns to center. In cruise flight the top of the stick will not go outside a 1 inch circle. In spite of that the KR is a fun airplane to fly. Just don't count on doing a lot of cockpit activities that require more than one hand. Don't even think about using both hands to refold a sectional unless it is in PERFECTLY calm air. Flight planning and organization will serve you well when going cross country in a KR. If possible set up you cockpit / panel so you can operate most switches and controls with one hand and not be changing hands on the stick for each activity. I fly with my right hand on the stick (dual sticks) and have my throttle on the left sidewall. All my switches and controls, except the Xponder and circuit breakers, are located so I can operate them with me left hand. I would guess that having a single center stick would make this even more critical. Given all that I just said, each time I shut down after a flight I'm looking forward to going back up the next time. I hope everyone has a much fun flying their KR as I'm having with mine. Larry Flesner
