KR> elevator mass balance

[Chris Johnston]

I am wondering what peoples thoughts  are on extending the elevator horn 
either above or below and forward of  the elevator, via a curved  plate and 
mount the mass balance weight internally in the top of the rear fuse, below the 
elevator, or above the elevator in the base  of the fin,  obviously, the fin 
location would be a bit cramped as you need to get the pushrod out. Still 
thinking about the details. I don't have any foam or glass on the elevators 
yet, but it looks liks a reasonable amount of lead will be needed.



Chris Johnston

292 Bells line road

nORTH rICHMOND NSW

Australia.

KR> elevator mass balance

[Joseph H. Horton]

I have a mass balance in mine that predates the simpler design that Mark
Langford and others are using. There was a fair amount of time invested
in the idea and getting it all to fit and operate well, but it is fine
and is tested to 200 mph with stock tail feathers. My pictures are from
the olden days when film had to be developed. i could probably scan a
couple and mail them to you. In any case I don't see the need to change
the control horn dramatically
Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:22:13 +1000 "Chris Johnston" 
writes:
> I am wondering what peoples thoughts  are on extending the 
> elevator horn either above or below and forward of  the elevator, 
> via a curved  plate and mount the mass balance weight internally in 
> the top of the rear fuse, below the elevator, or above the elevator 
> in the base  of the fin,  obviously, the fin location would be a bit 
> cramped as you need to get the pushrod out. Still thinking about the 
> details. I don't have any foam or glass on the elevators yet, but it 
> looks liks a reasonable amount of lead will be needed.
> 
> 
>  
>Chris Johnston
>  
>292 Bells line road
>  
>nORTH rICHMOND NSW
>  
>Australia.

KR> elevator mass balance

[R. Eason Sr.]

That is exactly what I did but the weight is on the bottom.  I found it more 
difficult to mount it on the top part of the horn. I had to carve out some foam 
though to allow the movement. All of the control is by cable.

Ronald R. Eason Sr.
Pres. & CEO, KCMO Office
J.R.L. Engineering Consortium Ltd.
816-468-4091, Kansas City, MO. 
Web Page: www.jrl-engineering.com


-- Original Message --
From: "Chris Johnston" 
Reply-To: KRnet 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 2006 20:22:13 +1000

I am wondering what peoples thoughts  are on extending the elevator horn 
either above or below and forward of  the elevator, via a curved  plate and 
mount the mass balance weight internally in the top of the rear fuse, below the 
elevator, or above the elevator in the base  of the fin,  obviously, the fin 
location would be a bit cramped as you need to get the pushrod out. Still 
thinking about the details. I don't have any foam or glass on the elevators 
yet, but it looks liks a reasonable amount of lead will be needed.



Chris Johnston

292 Bells line road

nORTH rICHMOND NSW

Australia.
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Sent via the WebMail system at jrl-engineering.com

KR> elevator mass balance

[Wood, Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN]

Here is my elevator mass balance arrangement
http://websites.expercraft.com/sidwood/index.php?q=log_entry_id=7739
Click on the pics for larger download.

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

KR> elevator mass balance

[Ronald R.Eason]

I like you web site and good work.

Ronald R. Eason Sr.
President / CEO
Ph: 816-468-4091
Fax: 816-468-5465 
http://www.jrl-engineering.com 
Our Attitude Makes The Difference!


-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+ron=jrl-engineering@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+ron=jrl-engineering@mylist.net] On Behalf Of Wood,
Sidney M (Titan) @ TITAN
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:57 AM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> elevator mass balance

Here is my elevator mass balance arrangement
http://websites.expercraft.com/sidwood/index.php?q=log_entry_id=7739
Click on the pics for larger download.

Sid Wood
Tri-gear KR-2 N6242
Mechanicsville, MD, USA

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KR> elevator mass balance

[Ed Janssen]

Ron,

Did you mean this to go to over 600 netters?

Ed

Ed Janssen
mailto:ejans...@chipsnet.com


> I like you web site and good work.
> 
> Ronald R. Eason Sr.

KR> Re: KR Elevator Mass balance

[Phil Matheson]

Mark L
Have you connected your mass balance yet.( I seem to rember you did not use 
it for your early flights)
The reason I ask is That my balance id tailered on yours and wanted to know 
if your using it and does it work OK?? or do I need to remove it all 
together ??

Phil Matheson
mathes...@dodo.com.au
VH-PKR  ( Phil's KR)
61 3 58833588
Australia.( Down Under)
See My KR2 Building Web Page at:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/flyingkrphil/VHPKR.html
See our VW Engines and Home built web page at
http://www.vw-engines.com/
www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
http://corvair.vw-engines.com/ 

KR> Re: KR Elevator Mass balance

[Mark Langford]

Phil Matheson wrote:

> Have you connected your mass balance yet.( I seem to rember you did not
use
> it for your early flights)

I reconnected it for my first flight!  Troy didn't want it, because it was
just another uncertainty that he didn't need, but I'm not too worried about
it.  Somebody at the Gathering told me how they'd stiffened it up with
another support, and that would be better, but for now I'm going with what
I've got, and it works fine...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
--

@SPAM++++++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[JW]

Just wondering but why would people Counter-balance their elevators because
of a bigger engine when you still can not exceed the VNE of 200mph?

J
- Original Message -
From: "gleone" <gle...@rtconnect.net>
To: <serge.vi...@ate-international.com>; <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: @SPAM++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis


> I couldn't get the second link to work but found an interesting one here:
>
> http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
>
> Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming
>
> Why is Chelsea Clinton so homely?
>
> Because Janet Reno is her real father.
> ---Original Message---
>
> From: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
> Date: 04/12/04 04:09:34
> To: 'KRnet'
> Subject: @SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
>
> Here is the link to Old Tony's articles
>
> http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/
>
> ... and the one about flutter.
>
>
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
> Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
>
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 ZS-WEC
> - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
> - Total aircraft time: 390h
> - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
> - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
> E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
> <mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
>
> I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about. In the interim,
> this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> topic. I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> for and respect such warnings.
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
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KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[gleone]

 J,

Like you, I agree the vne would seem balancing the elevator is overkill, but
there is the possibility of flutter before reaching vne.  Some things I
think are overkill but when it's on the side of safety, I tend to shoot for
overkill.  That's just me.  I just have this thing about raining body parts
and debris all over the Big Horn Basin.  Hell, most my family, friends and
neighbors have already started writing my eulogy!  My two pennies worth!

Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming



Why is Chelsea Clinton so homely? 

Because Janet Reno is her real father. 
---Original Message---

From: KRnet
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 04/13/04 07:27:30
To: gle...@rtconnect.net
Subject: @SPAM+ Re: $SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance
mounting / Bingelis

Just wondering but why would people Counter-balance their elevators because
of a bigger engine when you still can not exceed the VNE of 200mph?

J
- Original Message -
From: "gleone" <gle...@rtconnect.net>
To: <serge.vi...@ate-international.com>; <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: @SPAM++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis


> I couldn't get the second link to work but found an interesting one here:
>
> http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
>
> Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming
>
> Why is Chelsea Clinton so homely?
>
> Because Janet Reno is her real father.
> ---Original Message---
>
> From: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
> Date: 04/12/04 04:09:34
> To: 'KRnet'
> Subject: @SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
>
> Here is the link to Old Tony's articles
>
> http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/
>
> ... and the one about flutter.
>
>
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
> Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
>
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 ZS-WEC
> - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
> - Total aircraft time: 390h
> - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
> - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
> E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
> <mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
>
> I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about. In the interim,
> this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> topic. I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> for and respect such warnings.
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html


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@SPAM++++++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[joe]

What do you mean by bigger. (i.e. heavier; power; )
Changing some characteristics may require other changes
which would effect weight and balance.
- Original Message - 
From: "JW" <jmw...@socal.rr.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: @SPAM++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis


> Just wondering but why would people Counter-balance their elevators
because
> of a bigger engine when you still can not exceed the VNE of 200mph?
>
> J
> - Original Message -
> From: "gleone" <gle...@rtconnect.net>
> To: <serge.vi...@ate-international.com>; <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: @SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting /
Bingelis
>
>
> > I couldn't get the second link to work but found an interesting one
here:
> >
> > http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html
> >
> > Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming
> >
> > Why is Chelsea Clinton so homely?
> >
> > Because Janet Reno is her real father.
> > -------Original Message---
> >
> > From: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
> > Date: 04/12/04 04:09:34
> > To: 'KRnet'
> > Subject: @SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
> >
> > Here is the link to Old Tony's articles
> >
> > http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/
> >
> > ... and the one about flutter.
> >
> >
>
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
> > Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
> >
> > Serge Vidal
> > KR2 ZS-WEC
> > - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
> > - Total aircraft time: 390h
> > - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
> > - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
> > E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
> > <mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
> >
> > I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> > (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about. In the interim,
> > this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> > topic. I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> > for and respect such warnings.
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> >
> > ___
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> > ___
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[Edward Seaman]

+++ I agree the vne would seem balancing the elevator
is overkill

+++ when it's on the side of safety, I tend to shoot
for overkill

Wise man.

Surely we already know enough to appreciate that
dynamically and statically balanced CTL surfaces are
the way fwd - particularly when we are aspiring to 150
mph plus.

Put another way - we know enough to know that there is
a great deal more to know.

In 19 seventy something I stood and watched in utter
amazement as a ragwing rudder started to flutter just
before take off.  It was bizzare, the whole vert stab
was eventually in a slow motion oscillation - this all
occered in seconds.  I doubt that the old girl had
reached 40 mph.

Wisely, the driver gave it a miss and taxied back.

Ed








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KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[Murray Gill]

Yes I can see what the problem is. The URL that you copied and posted was
not complete.  The rest of the URL was on the next line.
This might work.  The important thing to note is that "TopOfPage"is the end
of the URL

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage

Murray Gill

> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-bounces+mjgill=webone.com...@mylist.net
> [mailto:krnet-bounces+mjgill=webone.com...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Norm
> Seel
> Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 15:47
> To: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
>
>
> I can't get the link on flutter to open.  Suggestions?
> Norman Seel
> Brandon, FL
> norman.s...@verizon.net
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Serge F. Vidal" <serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
> To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 3:07 AM
> Subject: RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
>
>
> > Here is the link to Old Tony's articles
> >
> > http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/
> >
> > ... and the one about flutter.
> >
> >
> http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to
%20Mass%20
> Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
>
> Serge Vidal
> KR2 ZS-WEC
> - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
> - Total aircraft time: 390h
> - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
> - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
> E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
> <mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
>
> I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about.  In the interim,
> this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> topic.  I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> for and respect such warnings.
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>


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KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[Steve and Lori McGee]

When you type th url in an email, do not hit enter until you are done.
Hitting enter at the end of the line stops the url address.
- Original Message - 
From: "Murray Gill" <mjg...@webone.com.au>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis


> Yes I can see what the problem is. The URL that you copied and posted was
> not complete.  The rest of the URL was on the next line.
> This might work.  The important thing to note is that "TopOfPage"is the
end
> of the URL
>
>
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
> Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
>
> Murray Gill
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: krnet-bounces+mjgill=webone.com...@mylist.net
> > [mailto:krnet-bounces+mjgill=webone.com...@mylist.net]On Behalf Of Norm
> > Seel
> > Sent: Thursday, 15 April 2004 15:47
> > To: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
> > Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
> >
> >
> > I can't get the link on flutter to open.  Suggestions?
> > Norman Seel
> > Brandon, FL
> > norman.s...@verizon.net
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Serge F. Vidal" <serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
> > To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
> > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 3:07 AM
> > Subject: RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis
> >
> >
> > > Here is the link to Old Tony's articles
> > >
> > > http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/
> > >
> > > ... and the one about flutter.
> > >
> > >
> > http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to
> %20Mass%20
> > Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage
> >
> > Serge Vidal
> > KR2 ZS-WEC
> > - Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
> > - Total aircraft time: 390h
> > - Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
> > - Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
> > E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
> > <mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>
> >
> > I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> > (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about.  In the interim,
> > this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> > topic.  I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> > for and respect such warnings.
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> >
> > ___
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
>
> ___
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> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[Phillip Matheson]

  Jim Wrote
  Was the strengh of the counterbalance mount the original issue, or am I
having a senior moment?
  

  Yes , my point in the begining ( before all this got carried away) was to
impact on the importance of the Mass mounting arm strength as well as the
way it is mounted to the elevator

  I was concerned with the mass weight on the elevator tips. and glassing
4130 to the tips and filling with lead.

  Where Mark Lankford has mounted his on the Bell crank infront of the
elevator.
  I also know the John Martindale from here ,( Down Under) mounted his mass
weight on the bell crank mounted to the rear spar.

  But at least it got some comments.

  Has anyone got any comments on my post regarding R.E.Bearings on the
rudder, and the side load weight of the rudder on the Rod end Bearing
  How will the REB handle the side Load???




  Phillip Matheson
  mathe...@dodo.com.au
  Australia
  VH PKR
  See our engines  and kits at.
  http://www.vw-engines.com/
  http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
  See my KR at Mark Jones web
  http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[joe]

Weight on the ends distributes more effectively when dynamic forces are
applied. I have used this method on the last aircraft I built(not a KR).
Please don't use this
as a solution on my account without more expert advice.
Joe

- Original Message - 
From: "Phillip Matheson" <mathe...@dodo.com.au>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting


>   Jim Wrote
>   Was the strengh of the counterbalance mount the original issue, or am I
> having a senior moment?
>   
>
>   Yes , my point in the begining ( before all this got carried away) was
to
> impact on the importance of the Mass mounting arm strength as well as the
> way it is mounted to the elevator
>
>   I was concerned with the mass weight on the elevator tips. and glassing
> 4130 to the tips and filling with lead.
>
>   Where Mark Lankford has mounted his on the Bell crank infront of the
> elevator.
>   I also know the John Martindale from here ,( Down Under) mounted his
mass
> weight on the bell crank mounted to the rear spar.
>
>   But at least it got some comments.
>
>   Has anyone got any comments on my post regarding R.E.Bearings on the
> rudder, and the side load weight of the rudder on the Rod end Bearing
>   How will the REB handle the side Load???
>
>
>
>
>   Phillip Matheson
>   mathe...@dodo.com.au
>   Australia
>   VH PKR
>   See our engines  and kits at.
>   http://www.vw-engines.com/
>   http://www.homebuilt-aviation.com/
>   See my KR at Mark Jones web
>   http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj/pmkr2.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[Murray Gill]

Phil,
Re your question about rod end bearings for attaching a rudder:
I downloaded the Aurora catalogue
http://www.aurorabearing.com/2003-04_Internet_Catalog.pdf and from a quick
read it would appear that the load you are concerned about is the axial load
when used as a rudder hinge. For a three piece rod end, such as the MW3 used
in the Dean hinge solution, (see article on Mark Langford's site) the
maximum axial load should be no greater than 10% of the radial load.  For
the MW3 the maximum radial load is 6,805 Newtons which is the force exerted
by a load of 694 kg or 1527 lb.  10% of that is 153lb which would be the
ultimate load.  If you are designing for the utility category the limit load
is calculated at 4.4g and if a composite structure the ultimate load is 2 x
limit load ie 8.8g. I guess that means the weight of the rudder should be
limited to about 153/8.8 = 17.38 lb.  Of course this calculation assumes
that the whole rudder load is being taken on one bearing.
(It also assumes I know what I'm talking about)

For what its worth :-)
Murray Gill

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[Stephen Jacobs]

Hi Guys

Some of the stuff I have been reading here is really worrying -
particularly after we had some input from Phil (Oz) - with particular
reference to weight distribution and G loading requirements.

This may be one good example of leaving well alone unless you know what
you are talking about.

It is interesting that the pilots that have experienced flutter become
very preoccupied with wanting tell everyone that will listen.  (at least
those that lived to talk about it).  Fortunately the irreplaceable Tony
Bingelis did both (experience and survive flutter) 

I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
(in my opinion) does know what he is talking about.  In the interim,
this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
topic.  I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
for and respect such warnings.

I would not be surprised if these (and more) are in the KRnet archives
somewhere - failing which, I am happy to email both to anyone interested
- let me have your address.  MS Word format would mean you get to see
his drawings as well (not many).

I selected this particular section because of the recent flurry of
discussion on G loading of counter-weights.

Steve J


How to Mass Balance Control Surfaces
Sport Aviation- 08/79
By Tony Bingelis


(Extract Only - Not the Complete Article)

Distribution of Mass Balance

Concentrating a single externally mounted mass balance weight in one
location to balance the control surface may not be ideal but because of
limited space available inside the structure, it is usually more
convenient to do so. However, whenever possible, distribute the weight
uniformly along the span of the control surface. If the weights must be
separate and attached in two or more locations along the span, they
should be positioned, if possible, on either side of hinges to reduce
flexing and torsional stresses on the structure.

A method for obtaining good distribution of balance is through the
installation of a solid steel rod along the entire length of the leading
edge or perhaps you could install a steel tube instead. Although the
steel tube would be lighter than a steel rod, its weight could be
increased to exceed that of the solid rod by pouring in molten lead to
obtain whatever additional weight is needed. You may have to pre-heat
the tube to achieve this objective. (Naturally, you will remember to
plug the open end?)
Not only must balance weights be attached solidly, they must also be
capable of withstanding high G loads. How high's high? Well, in a
yesteryear study conducted at the NASA Langley Research Center by Arthur
A. Regier (Flutter of Control Surfaces and Tabs), it was determined that
the balance weights should be capable of withstanding 36 G's normal to
the surface. However, more recently (1979), the FAA, in its AC23.629-1
"Means of Compliance with FAR 23.629, Flutter," states that all balance
weight supporting structure should be designed for a limit static load
of 24 G's normal to a plane containing the hinge and the weight and 12
G's within that plane parallel with the hinge. FAA also points out that
proof of these criteria can be accomplished by simple static tests of
the control surface mounted in a jig. That's really not too much as a 2
lb. weight need only be static tested to 48 lbs. to equal the
requirement imposed on store bought aircraft.
Now that you have all this under control, take care that the weights
will not work loose under prolonged use and vibration or all that G load
capability will be for naught.


A Summary On Balancing Controls

Many aircraft currently flying do not have balanced ailerons or
elevators or rudders. These designs, however, have proven to be
inherently free from flutter problems for the most part. So, I can't say
with any conviction that the designer intended for them to be balanced
or that they need it. However, and of this you may be sure, regardless
of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control
surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have
been tested in flight - for that tendency

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[joe]

The actual tests and results for elevator balancing for the many kit
aircraft on the market are available from the manufacturers, including the
results of the (GVT) Ground Vibration Tests done to establish flutter.
 Also the established methods for Elevator Balancing with illustrations are
easy to come by.
Joe

- Original Message - 
From: "Stephen Jacobs" <ask...@microlink.zm>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 3:56 AM
Subject: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting


> Hi Guys
>
> Some of the stuff I have been reading here is really worrying -
> particularly after we had some input from Phil (Oz) - with particular
> reference to weight distribution and G loading requirements.
>
> This may be one good example of leaving well alone unless you know what
> you are talking about.
>
> It is interesting that the pilots that have experienced flutter become
> very preoccupied with wanting tell everyone that will listen.  (at least
> those that lived to talk about it).  Fortunately the irreplaceable Tony
> Bingelis did both (experience and survive flutter)
>
> I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
> (in my opinion) does know what he is talking about.  In the interim,
> this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
> topic.  I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
> for and respect such warnings.
>
> I would not be surprised if these (and more) are in the KRnet archives
> somewhere - failing which, I am happy to email both to anyone interested
> - let me have your address.  MS Word format would mean you get to see
> his drawings as well (not many).
>
> I selected this particular section because of the recent flurry of
> discussion on G loading of counter-weights.
>
> Steve J
>
>
> How to Mass Balance Control Surfaces
> Sport Aviation- 08/79
> By Tony Bingelis
>
>
> (Extract Only - Not the Complete Article)
>
> Distribution of Mass Balance
>
> Concentrating a single externally mounted mass balance weight in one
> location to balance the control surface may not be ideal but because of
> limited space available inside the structure, it is usually more
> convenient to do so. However, whenever possible, distribute the weight
> uniformly along the span of the control surface. If the weights must be
> separate and attached in two or more locations along the span, they
> should be positioned, if possible, on either side of hinges to reduce
> flexing and torsional stresses on the structure.
>
> A method for obtaining good distribution of balance is through the
> installation of a solid steel rod along the entire length of the leading
> edge or perhaps you could install a steel tube instead. Although the
> steel tube would be lighter than a steel rod, its weight could be
> increased to exceed that of the solid rod by pouring in molten lead to
> obtain whatever additional weight is needed. You may have to pre-heat
> the tube to achieve this objective. (Naturally, you will remember to
> plug the open end?)
> Not only must balance weights be attached solidly, they must also be
> capable of withstanding high G loads. How high's high? Well, in a
> yesteryear study conducted at the NASA Langley Research Center by Arthur
> A. Regier (Flutter of Control Surfaces and Tabs), it was determined that
> the balance weights should be capable of withstanding 36 G's normal to
> the surface. However, more recently (1979), the FAA, in its AC23.629-1
> "Means of Compliance with FAR 23.629, Flutter," states that all balance
> weight supporting structure should be designed for a limit static load
> of 24 G's normal to a plane containing the hinge and the weight and 12
> G's within that plane parallel with the hinge. FAA also points out that
> proof of these criteria can be accomplished by simple static tests of
> the control surface mounted in a jig. That's really not too much as a 2
> lb. weight need only be static tested to 48 lbs. to equal the
> requirement imposed on store bought aircraft.
> Now that you have all this under control, take care that the weights
> will not work loose under prolonged use and vibration or all that G load
> capability will be for naught.
>
>
> A Summary On Balancing Controls
>
> Many aircraft currently flying do not have balanced ailerons or
> elevators or rudders. These designs, however, have proven to be
> inherently free from flutter problems for the most part. So, I can't say
> with any conviction that the designer intended for them to be balanced
> or that they need it. However, and of this you may be sure, regardless
> of whether your plans require mass balancing of one or more control
> surfaces, you will never be sure they are flutter-free until they have
> been tested in flight - for that tendency
>
>
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[Edward Seaman]

Joe says

Weight on the ends distributes more effectively when
dynamic forces are applied. I have used this method on
the last aircraft I built(not a KR).


Ed says - Weight on the "ends" is at an extremity -
very far from evenly distributed.  This extremeity is
the furthest possible distance from the input force
(control rod) and will thus precipitate the max
torsional load - not a good idea.

Steve J - please copy me on the info by Tony B - the
guy that talks from the right end.

Edward (edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk)













Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[joe]

Ed,
  I apologize for being so vague. I didn't mean to imply that "all" counter
balance weights were on the ends.
But, actually the same as Ed indicated. The word "effectively" was a poor
choice of words.
  However, the aircraft that I built came with weights and
most of the weight was at the ends. The aircraft had a canard.
Joe
- Original Message - 
From: "Edward Seaman" <edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting


> Joe says
>
> Weight on the ends distributes more effectively when
> dynamic forces are applied. I have used this method on
> the last aircraft I built(not a KR).
>
>
> Ed says - Weight on the "ends" is at an extremity -
> very far from evenly distributed.  This extremeity is
> the furthest possible distance from the input force
> (control rod) and will thus precipitate the max
> torsional load - not a good idea.
>
> Steve J - please copy me on the info by Tony B - the
> guy that talks from the right end.
>
> Edward (edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping"
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
>
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[joe]

Ed,
  My old construction webpage has been removed.
However, you can find something similar at
http://www.velocityxl.com/Canard.htm

- Original Message - 
From: "Edward Seaman" <edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting 


> Joe says
> 
> Weight on the ends distributes more effectively when
> dynamic forces are applied. I have used this method on
> the last aircraft I built(not a KR).
> 
> 
> Ed says - Weight on the "ends" is at an extremity -
> very far from evenly distributed.  This extremeity is
> the furthest possible distance from the input force
> (control rod) and will thus precipitate the max
> torsional load - not a good idea.
> 
> Steve J - please copy me on the info by Tony B - the
> guy that talks from the right end.
> 
> Edward (edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
> your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
> 
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting

[joe]

I did not say outboard ends, I said ends.
- Original Message - 
From: "joe" <feg...@earthlink.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting 


> Ed,
>   My old construction webpage has been removed.
> However, you can find something similar at
> http://www.velocityxl.com/Canard.htm
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Edward Seaman" <edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:08 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting 
> 
> 
> > Joe says
> > 
> > Weight on the ends distributes more effectively when
> > dynamic forces are applied. I have used this method on
> > the last aircraft I built(not a KR).
> > 
> > 
> > Ed says - Weight on the "ends" is at an extremity -
> > very far from evenly distributed.  This extremeity is
> > the furthest possible distance from the input force
> > (control rod) and will thus precipitate the max
> > torsional load - not a good idea.
> > 
> > Steve J - please copy me on the info by Tony B - the
> > guy that talks from the right end.
> > 
> > Edward (edpsea...@yahoo.co.uk)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" 
> > your friends today! Download Messenger Now 
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html
> > 
> > ___
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> ___
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[Serge F. Vidal]

Here is the link to Old Tony's articles

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/

... and the one about flutter.

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage

Serge Vidal
KR2 ZS-WEC
- Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
- Total aircraft time: 390h
- Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
- Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com


I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
(in my opinion) does know what he is talking about.  In the interim,
this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
topic.  I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
for and respect such warnings.
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

@SPAM++++++++ RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

[gleone]

 I couldn't get the second link to work but found an interesting one here:

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/howto/v6-1-36.html

Gene Leone, Worland, Wyoming

Why is Chelsea Clinton so homely? 

Because Janet Reno is her real father. 
---Original Message---

From: serge.vi...@ate-international.com; KRnet
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 04/12/04 04:09:34
To: 'KRnet'
Subject: @SPAM RE: KR> Elevator Mass Balance mounting / Bingelis

Here is the link to Old Tony's articles

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/

... and the one about flutter.

http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/authors/bingelis/How%20to%20Mass%20
Balance%20Control%20Surfaces.html#TopOfPage

Serge Vidal
KR2 ZS-WEC
- Taildragger, VW powered (2.4 liter, dual electronic ignition)
- Total aircraft time: 390h
- Aircraft hangared at: Orleans, France
- Pilot moaning in: Tunis, Tunisia
E-mail: serge.vi...@ate-international.com
<mailto:serge.vi...@ate-international.com>

I wish I could find the URL to the original articles by Mr. Bingelis who
(in my opinion) does know what he is talking about. In the interim,
this extract from one of two articles (by Tony) that I have on the
topic. I do not remember any copyright restrictions - I tend to look
for and respect such warnings.
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html


___
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html