Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
As, I understand it, the principle behind copyright law is to encourage creativity by ensuring that those who invest effort in a pattern or other intellectual property may profit from it. Publishers who take the risk in publishing the work are also deserving of the right to profit. I believe whole heartedly in this principle. I pay top dollar for lace books with the hope that the publisher will continue to print them and the creator will continue to create them. It breaks my heart when I hear a gifted lace person regret ever having spent the time writing a book, and this happens quite often. I get a little confused though when the fact pattern gets as convoluted and distorted as the Channer Mat problem. Ruth Bean constantly asserts that there is no profit to be made from this pattern. I have no doubt they are correct. It is rare that you hear that anyone has made any money publishing a lace book. The market is extremely small. They already published it once, thus saturating the market. It is entirely doubtful that they would ever publish it again. I am not sure what the minimum print run is that can be profitable. I am sure it is not 100. It is probably not 1000. If Ruth Bean keeps a list of everyone who wants the pattern with the idea of publishing when it gets to 1000, I think that it will take 20 years and the people who put their names on the list first will be dead, so there will still not be a thousand people who want the pattern even then. There are roughly 7,000 lacemakers in the English speaking world. Probably 500 have the pattern. Probably 6,400 don't want it. I don't blame Ruth Bean for not wanting to take a financial bath by republishing Channer's Mat. So, if there is no profit in the pattern, hypothetically, copying it doesn't sound like it is hurting them. If you were, hypothetically, to say the profit on each pattern was $10 and they suffer a $10 loss if you photocopy the pattern, they could sue you for $10 according to Tom. I even asked them if they would allow people to photocopy the pattern and send them the amount that they would consider the profit, ie. $10 and they said no. It is too much trouble for them to accept the individual $10 sums. This is entirely understandable. Maybe someone should offer to handle the paper work of clearing the checks from honor payments so they could receive it in a yearly lump sum which would be cheaper for them to process. Meanwhile, of course, the pattern is selling on e-bay and the second hand market. When these sell the dealers profit, extraordinarily. No money is kicked back to Ruth Bean or Channer, or Bury. Theoretically people could sell one copy to each other, copy for their own use, sell to another. Personally, I would rather see the creators or the publishers profit in order to encourage creativity and the publication of more lace patterns. I appreciate the role that used book sellers play and that they work quite hard. However, it would make more sense in terms of accomplishing the goals of the copyright law to photocopy the pattern and use the $70 you would pay on e-bay for the pattern to take the president of Ruth Bean, Bury and the Channer heirs out to dinner as a special thank you for creating and publishing it originally. Morally, I find the whole thing quite confusing. Mind you, I don't even want a copy. My skills aren't up to it and I don't think it is all that pretty. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] fan book
I got my Edward Hamilton catalog in the mail today and noticed they have Ann Collier's Lace Fans book for $17.95 instead of $26.95. I paid full price for this book and it is worth having if only for the eye candy. Check the web page. Janice http://www.hamiltonbook.com/Discount_Books/Catalog/Lacemaking_LAC.html -- Janice Blair Crystal Lake, 50 miles northwest of Chicago, Illinois, USA A mistake is simply another way of doing things. Katherine Graham - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] lawyers
Devon Your suggestion of a gaggle (delegation) of Indian lawyers descending on Ruth Bean absolutely tickles my funny bone. Maybe Ruth Bean will crumple with enough pestering (especially creative pestering). Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: Miss Channer/jurisdictional issues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose we send a delegation of Indian lawyers to call on Ruth Bean and discuss jurisdictional issues and the fascinating subject of Indian copyright law and how it has developed in the post-colonial sub-continent. I think this will finally bring them to their knees :) Devon, You *are* a devil! ((^_^)) Betty Ann - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] using patterns
Clay Dressmakers who serve customers by making dresses for them use commercially available patterns produced by the standard pattern companies. I suppose you are talking about producing 1000 copies of a McCall pattern and selling it at KMart or TJ Max. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: Miss Channer/enforcement issues
On Wednesday, Aug 27, 2003, at 19:02 US/Eastern, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Devon) wrote: I get a little confused though [...] So, if there is no profit in the pattern, hypothetically, copying it doesn't sound like it is hurting them. [...] The reason you're getting confused is because you're trying to make *logical* sense of the whole thing, where there isn't any... :) There are roughly 7,000 lacemakers in the English speaking world. Probably 500 have the pattern. Probably 6,400 don't want it. [...] Morally, I find the whole thing quite confusing. Mind you, I don't even want a copy. My skills aren't up to it and I don't think it is all that pretty. Yours, with you in the 6.4 thousand group who couldn't care less, except in theory; I liked the mat the first time I saw it, but not on second thought. There are patterns in existence which are both more challenging and prettier, and I have no intention of trying my hand at *those*, either :) I *might* buy the patern/book if it were available, legally, at a reasonable price, but then again I might not. I think the mat has become some sort of status symbol among the English-speaking lacemakers, altogether out of proportion to its value (in terms of visual appeal, intricacy of of design, etc, etc). Well, I'm not into it, any more than I would be into wearing a Rolex or driving a Rolls just to show how big I was... - Tamara P Duvall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Lexington, Virginia, USA Formerly of Warsaw, Poland - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer and Copyright
I knew when I sent the message earlier today that a few replies would be posted. All of the copyright information you ever wanted to know is on the Internet. First, international copyright legislation is for the most part governed by the Berne Convention, which you will find at: http://www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/overview.html Now, let's take a look at what the Berne people have to say: First of all, regarding which laws apply to the work, the Berne Convention (Section 5) says : ... the extent of protection, as well as the means of redress afforded to the author to protect his rights, shall be governed exclusively by the laws of the country where protection is claimed. That means that it doesn't matter how very British Miss Channer and her mat were, if the mat is copied in Canada, then Canadian copyright laws apply when considering whether or not an infraction has been committed. US laws apply in the US, and so on and so on. This matter is reinforced in other Sections of the convention in even plainer language. Now, how long is the duration? Under the Berne Convention (Section 7), The term of protection granted by this Convention shall be the life of the author and fifty years after his death. The same section goes on to explain that (1) countries do have the right to decided on a longer time or even a shorter time, but In any case, the term shall be governed by the legislation of the country where protection is claimed; however, unless the legislation of that country otherwise provides, the term shall not exceed the term fixed in the country of origin of the work. For US law, I took a look at http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/duration.html: In the United States, anything published before 1923 has no copyright whatsoever; it doesn't matter when the author/creator died. For after 1923 the current copyright law is if a work was published between 1923 to 1963, the copyright owner was required to have applied for a renewal term with the Copyright office. If they did not, the copyright expired and the work entered into the public domain. If they did apply for renewal, these works will have a 95 year copyright term and hence will enter into the public domain no sooner that 2018 (95 years from 1923). If the work was published between 1964 to 1977, there is no need to file for a renewal, and these works will automatically have a 95 year term. So, what does this mean for us and our lace patterns? Well, if you live in the States, you can copy and republish and do whatever you want with anything that was published before 1923. After that date and before 1963 it becomes a bit dicier because you have to figure out whether or not the copyright was renewed. Personally, I bet it wasn't, but that's just me. Now, what was protected? If Ruth Bean had someone copy an old pattern and copyrighted it, the more power to her. However, she just has copyright on the copy *she* made, not on Miss Channer's original. No one can ever have a copyright again on something whose copyright expires. So, as I said in my original posting, if you want to make your own copy based on your own rendering of a pre-1923 photo from a book published before 1923, and you live in the States, go ahead. Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer's Mat URL
Dear Johanna and all interested parties. The Poole Bobbin Lace Society has a picture of the mat worked by a member. (With close-ups). http://www.cyberlink.co.uk/pblc/mat.htm Patty Dowden - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: Dicouraging teachers
On Wednesday, Aug 27, 2003, at 08:00 US/Eastern, Malvary Cole wrote: The teacher (whose name I forget - blacked out for ever from my memory in disgust at her attitude) took one look at my feeble attempts and said in a very snooty voice - Not very good, is it? There are people in every profession who make themselves look big the only way they *can* (or know) -- by making *others* look small... But *nowhere* is it more devastating than when such bucket of very cold BS is dumped by a teacher/parent; demanding is one thing (carefully adjusted to the needs of the recipient), denigrating quite another. At least, most of us take up lacemaking as *paying adults*, for the fun of it, so we have the option of voting with our feet and out of *that* classroom... All the same, I must say that y'all's (Malvary not being the only one) recollections only confirm me in thinking myself lucky; I was self-taught all the way until my skills were strong enough to withstand *constructive* criticism, and to disregard the nonsensical :) Ann Durant's: Maybe Torchon was the only lace the teacher knew how to make? rings very true. It's a pity however that so many people let themselves be victimised - Tamara P Duvall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Lexington, Virginia, USA Formerly of Warsaw, Poland - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Doreen Wright
In a message dated 8/27/03 9:23:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was very sorry to hear about Doreen Wright - and a little surprised that there has been no more comment about her. Dear Lacemakers and Jane Read, This is typical of many postings - no comments. In this case, I did not write to the list, but did write privately to Jean's marvelous husband - David Leader. To thank him for always giving freely of his limited time and considerable computer talents, especially when Jean is away and something Lace Guild-related needs to be done. They are a great team. I think the people behind the scenes (the backup teams) often are not acknowledged by us. Also, I would like to suggest that it is nice to keep biographies of our lace legends up-to-date for those times when they are needed in a hurry. (Doreen Wright was 95. An obituary would be needed - sooner, rather than later.) Jean Leader had the Doreen Wright tribute - written by Gwynedd Roberts - ready-to-use. Major publications do this. Our much smaller lace organizations do not (that I know of). It is a good idea, because the information can be polished, and there is more time to verify facts and include all important information that might otherwise be forgotten. It is the best send-off to Lace Heaven we can give - an accurate picture documenting a lacemaker's life. Read at this address, and marvel at the obstacles overcome by this one lacemaker. If you have Doreen Wright's book, it would be nice to print and put in the book: http://www.laceguild.org Jeri Ames in Maine USA Lace and Embroidery Resource Center - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright(as per Aurelia)
--- Forwarded Message --- From: Aurelia L. Loveman, 103364,1155 To: Jane Read, INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, Aug 27, 2003, 4:10 PM RE: [lace] Doreen Wright Well, since you ask... she was indeed quite a character. Endless, boundless energy, and she would let nothing and nobody stand in her way when she was out to accomplish something, even if it meant protracted struggle. I was not anything like a close friend; but we knew her well enough that she stayed with us overnight when she travelled in this country (U.S.). We first met when my husband and I drove down to her cottage at Chalfont St. Giles one day (unexpected and unannounced except for a telephone call an hour earlier to say we were coming and to get driving directions -- which I guess makes us characters too). This was in the early 1970's. I had learned how to do Torchon and was frantic to learn more. She welcomed us briefly and got right down to business. She put me in a window with a pillow and bobbins and a pattern of Duke's Garter, gave me half a dozen brisk words, and I was on my way, too terrified to object or to ask any questions (the ultimate result of that beginning rests on the sleeves of a blouse that I still have and love!). She had another student in the room that same day, an Australian woman as I remember it, who had come to study with her a year earlier, and was living in the house. The study year was just coming to an end, and I think the two of them had gotten pretty sick of each other; the day that I was there they weren't on speaking terms; and Doreen told me all these various details, at intervals over the whole afternoon, in a perfectly audible voice (the Australian didn't say anything). She was the author of a book, Bobbin Lace Making, which, although written in a somewhat rushed style characteristic of her, was helpful at a time (1971) when there weren't that many books around for the ardent student of lace, and I was grateful for it. And she gave me one of the most wonderful presents I have ever had in my life: Dentelles de Notre Temps, by Elena Holeczyova, a stunning book that opened up a new world for me, the wonderful world of 20th century Czechoslovakian lace. Doreen didn't say much; she just gave it to me with a smile, and wrote her name in it. She really loved lace. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Copyright/Publishing
My publisher told me that the break-even point for book sales/publishing costs is 300 copies, and they won't normally publish anything unless they can sell at least that number. Obviously they want to sell more to make a profit, but the philosophy of the company is that even a small interest group should be able to buy books of interest to them. So, provided some books make a profit, they publish others they think worthy, even if they know they're unlikely to sell 300. I own the copyright on the contents of my books, which are digrammatic patterns and instructions on how to make various things for horses and riders. Although I'd be a bit peeved if someone copied the patterns and passed them on to their friends, I've got no objection to anyone setting up a cottage industry making horse rugs. They won't make a fortune because, like the lace world, the amateur horse world is relatively small, but if I've enabled someone to earn a few bob they wouldn't otherwise have been able to earn, then good luck to them. Jean in Poole - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: Doreen Wright
On Thursday, August 28, 2003, at 05:18 AM, Jeri wrote: If you have Doreen Wright's book, it would be nice to print and put in the book: http://www.laceguild.org Thanks Jeri for that suggestion; I've just printed it off; now to find the book! I think I know where it is. Brenda http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/paternoster/ Supporting the [EMAIL PROTECTED] campaign - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright
I've just found my copy of her book to add the print out of The lace Guild' s website obituary, and it's signed by her - on 28 August 1981, 22 years ago today! Brenda http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/paternoster/ Supporting the [EMAIL PROTECTED] campaign - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer's mat
Hello Everybody, What's written here: But someone else could do the same thing - get the original and make it into a pricking and a pattern, I mean. All you would have to do is draw it out and make the pricking and keep records of the process so that you could prove you didn't just copy Ruth Bean's version. is only possible for personal use not for selling. Greetings Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright
Thank you to those who responded to my query about Doreen Wright. I greatly enjoyed reading your stories and some really made me smile; Brenda's desk! and Aurelia's australian student! They reinforce the impression I have of a real character. While I'm most interested in making lace, I enjoy knowing a little about the people who made it, it makes the craft come more alive. I agree with Jeri that we should keep information about our big names - and the Lace Guild was trying to do this, publishing interviews in the Lace magazine. But sometimes I wonder, what was Miss Channer really like, and Thomas Lester - all those fabulous designs! and so on. Jane Ms Jane Read Southampton Oceanography Centre, Empress Dock, Southampton, SO14 3ZH, U.K. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: 02380-596432 - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re Miss Channer mat
I wonder if Ruth Bean realises that many of the lacemaker desperate for the mat pricking are not interested in the book which was sold separately. So printing the pricking and accompanying sheet should not be such a problem. Diana (Northamptonshire, UK) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright book
There is a copy of Doreen Wright's book just listed on ebay... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=3547446797 Clay Clay Blackwell Lynchburg, VA - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright's Lace book/York bobbin
I was wondering what those of you that have Doreen's book think of it. Can anybody tell me what the copywrite date is and is it still in print? I would like to also thank all of those people that sent me emails on the York (in the Shambles) Lace shop and bobbin response. I accidently deleted the address and phone number of the store. Could that person please send me that info again? One thing I found out from my responses is I was not the only one that bought a bobbin from the shop as a souvenir. I have enjoyed reading the stories of how they stumbled upon the shop themselves. Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues
From: Bev Walker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I prefer to make my original designs available through lace magazines, for the price of buying the magazine. OK, we've been exploring copyright law through the hypothetical example of Miss Channer's mat. And Vivienne, I do believe most of the messages were hypothetical, using the mat as an example--not actually advocating violating Ruth Bean's copyright to produce the mat's pricking. Bev brings up something I've wondered about. If I buy the magazine with her design in it, would it violate copyright if I let my friend(s) copy her pattern? Are they supposed to buy their own copies of the magazine in order to do a pattern from it? What if the magazine is not available, either because it requires a subscription/membership for a whole year (too late, when you see a pattern in the current issue) or it's an old issue? This can actually get pretty complicated when one is dealing with lace organizations' magazines. Some magazines hold the copyright for their contents so, like books, there's a demonstrable loss from unsold copies. However, don't most of the lace orgs leave the copyright with the designer? The designer may get some sort of payment (like copies of the issue, or a bobbin), but gets no royalties for the *number* of copies of the magazine sold. When IOLI sells off extra back issues, the designers aren't getting any extra payment, so the designers aren't losing any income when I reproduce patterns in old copies. The IOLI may claim lost membership (why pay those pesky dues if Robin will let me copy patterns from her old issues?), but they don't hold the copyright on the patterns being copied. So if the copyright holder can't lose income, is it a copyright violation? If anyone's worried, I *do* buy magazines (or join organizations) in order to have my own copy of patterns, and I *don't* give away copies from my magazines. I've just wondered. Robin P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright's Lace book/York bobbin
I was wondering what those of you that have Doreen's book think of it. Can anybody tell me what the copywrite date is and is it still in print? I would like to also thank all of those people that sent me emails on the York (in the Shambles) Lace shop and bobbin response. I accidently deleted the address and phone number of the store. Could that person please send me that info again? One thing I found out from my responses is I was not the only one that bought a bobbin from the shop as a souvenir. I have enjoyed reading the stories of how they stumbled upon the shop themselves. Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Omaha Lace Workshop
Hello Lacemakers We still have openings in all of the classes, both bobbin lace and tatting, for the Living Lace of Omaha's Lace Workshop Weekend--October 18th and 19th. There are alot of cheap hotels in the area. We have alot of vendors coming: Snowgoose, Unique Expressions, DS9 Designs, Heartland Natural Fibers, Debbie Beever (can't remember the name of her shop), M M Lace Network. (These are just the ones that I can think of right now.) Our vendor room will be worth the trip in itself! All the information is at the following url: http://creighton.edu/~kbovard/workshop.htm Plan on joining us for a great weekend of lace away from home. Karen Bovard (The ShuttleSmith) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Omaha, NE - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] I forgot to mention...Milanese workshop
I will be in Ithaca,New York and will be taking the Milanese Workshop Sat-Monday. I am so Cited!! I have been wanting to take a workshop on this kind of lace for along time. I hope as in last year...I can finish the learning piece before I leave the classroom on Monday afternoon...Here is hopingLOL!! Is there anyone else on the list that will be in this workshop too...I would love to hear from you. Sherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer/calculation of loss
Some years ago at a lace convention a lawyer addressed us on the subject of copyright. It was an amusing presentation because the orientation of the talk was the supposition that members of the audience may have designed something that they would like to protect and how to do that. However, all the questions were about how far you could go in publishing other people's work before you had gone too far. One questioner was absolutely certain that you could publish another person's pattern, without payment, a long as you mentioned the other person's name as the originator of the pattern. Although the answer was, only if that person has agreed to it, the questioner would not accept this answer. Another question was, If I buy the pattern, can I make a copy for a friend? The answer was, if I recall correctly, only if it does not damage the person who owns the copyright. The lawyer said, You might consider everyone in this room to be your friend, but if you gave a copy of a pattern from a book to everyone in this room, it would materially damage the sale of the book it came from, because the market is so small. I had the interesting experience of writing an article for the IOL Bulletin and later receiving a request to translate it into German for publication in a German Lace Mag. I had no idea what the legal status of this request was. I had no objection to it being republished. In fact, I was flattered. I asked the IOL and they had no idea whether their permission was required, but said they had no objection. My personal take on this is that I own the copyright, because I wrote it, and the IOL printed it with my permission. Now the German magazine is printing the translation with my permission. I may have gotten an extra copy of the issue, but the IOL certainly didn't buy it from me. Perhaps the IOL is missing a bet. It should have Tom write a regular feature called Copyright Corner where he deals with hypotheticals such as the Channer Mat Paradox. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
A couple of things... the first is that the pricking published by Ruth Bean is not the original but an adaptation by Anne Buck of the original. Perhaps she can have some influence on the possibility of republishing the pricking? Does anyone know when Ruth Bean Publishers started in business? If it was after 1949, there may be some question as to their right to hold a copyright that legally belongs to the heirs of Miss Channer until the year 2019. Second, this is a sterling example of the flaw in the ridiculous length of copyright duration. Catherine Channer died in 1949 and Ruth Bean Publications is sitting on her work, making it unavailable to those Miss Channer devoted her time and talents to during her lifetime! Those of us who are designing need to consider what will happen to our own work after we are no longer around to control it. A greedy (or uncaring) publisher or uncaring (or hateful) relative could bury our work in much the same way as Miss Channer's work is being buried... for nearly 3/4 of a century after we die, or longer if a corporation can get hold of the copyright! I appreciate Vivienne and other's wish to make a fair return on their work and I would never advocate copying a *living* author's work, but for heaven's sake do you really want your *legacy* consigned to obscurity at the whim of someone else? That is really what is being discussed here. Consider Sr. Judith who is well over 80 years old... she has designed nearly every scrap of Withof on the planet. What will happen to her work when she passes (God willing she lives in health many more years)? Will Withof simply disappear with her? Pattern Book 7 is already rare as hen's teeth and not being printed, and IMHO it contains some of her best work. I don't have a copy and it's unlikely I'll ever be able to get one from bookfinder.com or ebay at any price. Lacemakers 50 - 70 years from now certainly won't. Realizing that there is little we can do against the battalions of lawyers and piles of bucks corporations like Disney use to drive the copyright laws further and further out of the realm of common sense, it is still a travesty that an important work like Miss Channer's Mat will be allowed to languish for so long. When Miss Channer died, what was the expected length of her copyright and what has it ended up as years later? Even if she had thought about this at all, how could she know what would happen? Do *we* even know where this will end? Since the copyright on Mickey Mouse hasn't expired yet the length of time could be extended many more times. With the advent of DVD-based movies and music, there will be even more pressure to extend the duration copyrights. Sorry to go on so, but this is one of my soapboxes. (For non-Americans, the term soapbox comes from a time when people would stand on a soapbox (or other such wooden box) in a public place and cry out their personal message to the world.) Marcie - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer's mat
Dear Adele, But someone else could do the same thing - get the original and make it into a pricking and a pattern, I mean. All you would have to do is draw it out and make the pricking and keep records of the process so that you could prove you didn't just copy Ruth Bean's version. I'm throwing out this suggestion just in case somebody hasn't thought of it and wants to try ... I've already done it, but at this stage daren't do anything with it except use it myself. David in Ballarat Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Hand-made Maltese lace from NY
I just did a search on Ebay for maltese lace one of the items was for 2 lengths of an narrow edging. The third photo is of the lace being made on a very narrow pillow held up against the window frame. I was so intrigued that I asked the seller if he/she made the lace if they were from Malta. Lace can be seen here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=2553524689category=39448rd=1 The seller (John) replied to my questions by saying the lace was made by his mother they are both from Malta. Massapequa, NY is listed as their location, which is on Long Island. Maybe someone from nearby could contact them. John's email is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that having a Maltese lace-maker demonstrate at a meeting would be very interesting. I think her lace is worth more than $10 for 3.5 + 3 yards. Pene Piip [EMAIL PROTECTED] N.E.L.G. Newsletter Editor Formerly from Sydney, Australia. Now residing in Groton, MA, USA. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Miss Channer/do the right thing
Consider the following dark scenario. The president of Ruth Bean finds that the e-mail campaigns to republish Channer are now coming quarterly, rather than yearly. The increasingly angry tone of these campaigns suggests that some people who would not engage in illicit photocopying might engage in murder. The added stress of providing refreshments for delegations of Indian copyright lawyers who like spicy teas and must obey difficult to understand dietary laws causes the president to lose his or her mind and actually republish Channer's Mat. Ten thousand dollars is spent producing 2,000 copies to be sold at $10 a piece. Of the hundred people who said they wanted the pattern reproduced, 50 of them decide that $10 is too high. Ruth Bean makes $250 on the 50 sold and loses $9,750. Ruth Bean declares bankrutpcy and goes out of business. The wee mites of the employees go hungry. I certainly wouldn't want it on my conscience. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
Do you know the date of the copyright and whether it was copyrighted by Bean or Buck. Is Buck dead? As to morality? Is it moral to sit on something that you cannot profit from and keep it from the rest of the world just because you have a *legal* right to do so? Tom Andrews - Original Message - From: Panza, Robin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Marcie Greer' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arachne (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox) From: Marcie Greer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Second, this is a sterling example of the flaw in the ridiculous length of copyright duration. Catherine Channer died in 1949 and Ruth Bean Publications is sitting on her work, making it unavailable to those Miss Channer devoted her time and talents to during her lifetime! It's my understanding that Miss Channer's mat, or a photograph of it, are all that survived her death--NOT a pricking. Anne Buck developed a pattern from a photograph of the mat, Bean published Buck's pricking and a picture of Buck's piece--NOT the original mat. I don't know if Bean commissioned the piece or the designer offered it to Bean. I also don't know how much change there was from the original mat and the developed design, but we assume Bean was legal in all this. Either the mat was changed enough, or it was late enough, to not violate Channer's estate's copyright. The copyright we are in danger of infringing is Bean's/Buck's pricking. As I understand it, if someone got a photo of the original mat and developed their own pricking, that would be legal. If they reproduced Bean's/Buck's pricking, they would be in violation of Bean's copyright. Robin P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Miss Channer/enforcement issues (Soapbox)
Yes, if you own something it is your right what you do with it. Also a lot of the people on this soap box have never seen the mat, second it is quite boring, third they couldn't do it and finally the only thing that excites people is the number of bobbins! KEEP LACING, VIVIENNE, BIGGINS - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: copyright and copying magazines
In a message dated 8/28/03 11:43:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bev brings up something I've wondered about. If I buy the magazine with her design in it, would it violate copyright if I let my friend(s) copy her pattern? Are they supposed to buy their own copies of the magazine in order to do a pattern from it? What if the magazine is not available, either because it requires a subscription/membership for a whole year (too late, when you see a pattern in the current issue) or it's an old issue? YES! It does violate copyright. Your friend should buy it, you are not legally entitled to copy it for anyone else but yourself. If the mag is out of print, it still applies. If they need to be a member, then maybe they should join. Copyright is copyright and just because someone is a friend or doesn't want to be inconvenienced by having to hunt down a back issue on ebay or something, it is still a copyright violation! Ohh, back on the list for less than a week and I stumbled on my soap box! LOL. As an artist, I've looked into copyright extensively as well as working at the Wash. Post, where we have copyright presentations by the staff lawyers frequently. Even if the law seems silly, it IS the law. Pam ;-) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Ms. Channer
Hi Spiders, I am struck with amount of energy we pour in to discussing Ms. Channer and her mat. What is it about us as a group that makes this topic so riveting? She was determined to not let lace die, as was Doreen Wright, whom I have begun to know belatedly through your anecdotes. These thoughts are drifting through my mind. The discussion has wandered to having what we want when we want it. One of my friends has suggested that I use lace to keep sane. Absolutely! It is one of the few things over which I have control. So it IS a control issue, at least for me. Responding to the thread about how much you need to know about the basics of lace before you can branch out, I have to laugh. I am a How does it work?, How do I do that? , I don't like this bit, what can I do with it? kind of a person. The mere thought that a teacher would tell me no and get away with it has me in stitches. I believe, out of respect, that I follow the teacher's recommendation during the workshop, but when I get home, all bets are off! I learn something in every workshop, even if it's only that I didn't have as many holes in what I know as I thought I did. But I never did the go to class every week type of tutoring, so maybe I wouldn't be quite so cavalier if I had to face a person week after week. Bemusedly, Patty Dowden - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Re: copyright and copying magazines
In a message dated 08/28/2003 1:25:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Copyright is copyright and just because someone is a friend or doesn't want to be inconvenienced by having to hunt down a back issue on ebay or something, it is still a copyright violation! As I recall this original posting dealt with the situation where Bev designs a pattern and gives her permission, for free, to a lace magazine to publish it because she would like to share it with as many people as possible. The lace magazine has not bought the pattern. I think Bev is the copyright holder in this case and she feels she would like to share it with as many people as possible. So, is the copyright being violated, or is the pattern being used with permission when someone copies it. Does the publication which has not bought the pattern have a property interest in it that it can protect by limiting use when it is Bev's desire to share the pattern as widely as possible? Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Copyright legacy
Marcie wrote: A greedy (or uncaring) publisher or uncaring (or hateful) relative could bury our work in much the same way as Miss Channer's work is being buried... for nearly 3/4 of a century after we die, or longer if a corporation can get hold of the copyright! I appreciate Vivienne and other's wish to make a fair return on their work and I would never advocate copying a *living* author's work, but for heaven's sake do you really want your *legacy* consigned to obscurity at the whim of someone else? If you register your book for Public Lending Right in the UK (an author is paid an extremely small pittance every time a book is borrowed from a public library to make up for loss of royalties) there is a reminder that you need to assign this to a person or organisation in your will. I contacted a lawyer friend, and asked about copyright. As a result, in my will my Public Lending Right, any royalties being earned if my books are still in print, and the copyright on them are assigned to the British Heart Foundation (a charity researching into heart disease) on my death, purely because DH survived 2 heart attacks. That way someone continues to benefit regardless of what the publisher or my relatives want. It's my right to decide. It's not a lot in monetary terms, but every little helps. I don't think many authors or artists have thought that their work forms part of their estate and therefore don't think about including it in their will. Jean in Poole - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Doreen Wright's book, copyright etc
On Thursday, August 28, 2003, at 04:41 PM, Sherry wrote: I was wondering what those of you that have Doreen's book think of it. Can anybody tell me what the copywrite date is and is it still in print? I think it's fair to say that it's not the best BL book around, but it was the first of the *modern /lace revival* era and as such was invaluable. It' s mostly Bucks, but has a bit of Honiton, Beds Torchon, and finishing mounting, etc. If you only had that one book to learn from it would be a STEEP learning curve! There are instructions for making a pillow, the bandage to learn the basic stitches and several traditional narrow Bucks patterns and then quite a lot more patterns with progressively less instructions. It goes from basics to Floral Bucks. What was that other thread about learning torchon first? Not so with Doreen Wright. As far as copyright goes, I don't know. If Doreen sold her copyright to the publisher (Bell Hyman) then I think they would have copyright for however many years (50? 70? 100?) from the purchase (publication was 1971) , but if copyright remained with the author then, under UK law it remains with her for her lifetime and then with her heirs for 70 years, so until August 2073. Whichever way it is, the copyright will be on the artwork in the book ie the drawings, diagrams, photos, typesetting etc, not in the lace patterns themselves as these are nearly all traditional patterns, with names, which Doreen re-drew, (some show the graph paper grid, some don't) plus a couple of prickings from Aylesbury Museum. I guess she obtained the proper permission to publish. On the subject of Miss Channer's mat; copyright is the right to exactly reproduce. I believe that if you own a worked mat (from a purchased pricking), and then re-drew it from scratch using a suitable grid you would own the copyright on the new artwork although you wouldn't (morally)own the design. Tracing wouldn't be allowed as that is mechanical copying. Shakespeare's works are centuries out of copyright and anyone can re-write all his words in the correct sequence, but unless your copy of Hamlet, Macbeth or whatever is old you cannot just photocopy the book as the publisher will have copyright on the artwork/typesetting. Brenda http://users.argonet.co.uk/users/paternoster/ Supporting the [EMAIL PROTECTED] campaign - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] Wright's book, copyright etc
From: Brenda Paternoster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On the subject of Miss Channer's mat; copyright is the right to exactly reproduce. I believe that if you own a worked mat (from a purchased pricking), and then re-drew it from scratch using a suitable grid you would own the copyright on the new artwork although you wouldn't (morally)own the design. Tracing wouldn't be allowed as that is mechanical copying. I believe there's more to it than that. If I make a hooked rug from someone's watercolor painting, I can be infringing the painter's copyright by selling copies of my rug pattern. It's my understanding that changing media doesn't automatically bypass copyright--it has to be changed enough to be an adaptation. Robin P. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re Channer mat
As far as I am aware Miss Anne Buck is alive (and I hope well), she wrote the book that accompanied the pricking but did not adapt it, that was done by Mrs Patricia Bury. 'Miss Buck is well known for her work in the fields of English costume and lace. As a young assistant at Luton Museum she took private lessons with Miss Channer'. Quoted from the book 'In the Cause of English Lace'. Diana (Northamptonshire, UK) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Channer mat
The photograph of the mat which appears in the book In the Cause of English Lace I quote: 'Point ground lace designed by Miss Channer worked by Mrs Dixon of Clapham, Bedford, at one of the classes of the Bedford Technical Institute, c.1926. Actual size 340mm x 250mm. (Cecil Higgins Art Gallery)'. Which would appear to me that the actual mat is in the collection of the art gallery. I believe (though don't quote me) that Miss Channer's collection was split up between several museums at a time when cataloguing was not always done with care - putting it nicely ;) The museum at Northampton has some of the collection but as I helped with catalogue a few years ago I pretty sure that there is nothing held there as regards the mat. Diana (Northamptonshire, UK) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] copyright issues
Hi everyone This is indeed 'ein weites Feld' and a topic that rears its head at least once a year on arachne, or so it seems ;) Robin wrote: Bev brings up something I've wondered about. If I buy the magazine with her design in it, would it violate copyright if I let my friend(s) copy her pattern? No, it doesn't violate copyright as far as I'm concerned, and I would consider it 'fair use'. . The pattern is copyright the designer, but not - at least not in the case of Canadian Lacemaker Gazette - not the property of the magazine itself. The pattern can be copied many times over for personal use - including giving to your friends - but not published somewhere else without the permission of the designer, and certainly not as someone else as the designer, and more importantly shall not be *sold* as such. How can this be policed? We rely on the likeminded principles of others. Admittedly, on one hand it would be nice for the magazine if everyone bought their own copy, but on the other hand - if several people are sharing the magazine, the purpose of the publication (as a vehicle to communicate information about lacemaking) is furthered - - it isn't as though it is a huge profit-making venture. Lace groups subscribe to the magazine, and other magazines like it, and one would assume group members borrow the magazines. They could photocopy what interests them in general, and will photocopy patterns for their own use in particular. I design little patterns for the fun of it, and am pleased if others enjoy them. I think this is the same for all who contribute their designs to our non-profit lace magazines. As an aside, I consider the photocopy machine a bonafide lace tool :) I have been asked by authors of articles that I've published in the Gazette to release permission for the article to be published somewhere else - this is no matter of the Gazette's. The author may publish their article anywhere they like. However, given the smallness of the lace community, and if I'm so asked, I suggest they change the article somewhat, in fairness to readers who have seen it already in the first publication. Some magazines have a policy of publishing only first-time articles; they do not like to publish something that has already appeared somewhere else (I don't know if that is a copyright issue, or just the organizations's policy). I've been nosing around checking out 'Mars' information sites - the National Research Council of Canada encourages use of the information at its site, with a few provisions - I think the wording is excellent for describing fair use. If anyone is interested, the info is here: http://www.hia-iha.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/notices_e.html -- bye for now Bev in Sooke, BC (west coast of Canada) and editor of Canadian Lacemaker Gazette http://www.lacegazette.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Lace Friends of Luton Museum Bobbin Lace pattern book on ebay
There are six copies of Lace Friends of Luton Museum Bobbin Lace pattern book for sale on ebay at a 'Buy-it-now' price of just 70 pence plus postage. Description: Lace Friends of Luton Museum Bobbin Lace pattern book with a variety of original patterns in Torchon, Bedfordshire, Honiton, Bucks Point, Tape Lace, Carrickmacross and Brugge. Proceeds going to charity. I've just bought the 7th copy. Unfortunately the seller will post to the UK only. Search on ebay.uk for 'bobbin lace pattern book' Jean in Poole - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Librarians-thugs?
I am glad Bev brought up the matter of libraries. There is an entire profession of people devoted to the principle that making published material available to people who have not bought the books or magazines serves an important public interest. Why they are not rounded up and put behind bars is a mystery to me. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] one-handed lacing
Hi everyone Just to change the subject to a less wide Field than copyright...remember we were chatting about one-handed lacing - I tried it with my Flanders ground edging - did not last long with working with one hand. Torchon no problem, but Flanders ground - it goes much better with both hands in motion (not to say it can't be done with one hand, just that the technician is happier using both). I did learn something else about technique - I made a dandy straw bolster - the Bucks insertion needing 24 pairs, and theres' not much room for more on this bolster - is well underway. I'm using my brass pins, pricking as I go through two layers - a photocopy of the pattern (from 100 Patterns) glued to cover card - the pins go through the pattern, into the pillow, nicely, and they don't bend. I had covered the straw bolster with several firm wraps of old wool blanket. The nature of the bolster changes the way one works - it is a curved surface, with a front and back, not domed like the cookie pillow. The bobbins hang to the front when in use, and pushed to the back when not needed - most of the bobbins are at the back (I always wondered about that, in the pictures in Thomas Wright for instance - why the lacemakers had so many bobbins at the back of their pillows - perhaps this is why). I can see that if one had mastered the pattern, and would work quickly, one hand would favour putting in pins, while the other moved bobbins. I also learned that with evening light, if I didn't want to be in my own shadow, I *had* to pin with the hand away from the light, only. It is a short stretch to imagine that a lacemaker, accustomed to pinning with one hand to avoid shadow, got used to putting pins with that one hand. The insertion I'm doing has tallies scattered through it - tally-making, too, is different again on this sort of pillow. I haven't got a good method yet, for speed and neatness - but I think my hands will teach me what that should be. There's always something new to learn in lace ;) -- bye for now Bev in Sooke, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Librarians-thugs?
Thank you, Devon, for adding some levity to this subject which has become ponderous to the point that I'm beginning to delete without reading... but the thugs got my attention!! Clay - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 4:46 PM Subject: [lace] Librarians-thugs? I am glad Bev brought up the matter of libraries. There is an entire profession of people devoted to the principle that making published material available to people who have not bought the books or magazines serves an important public interest. Why they are not rounded up and put behind bars is a mystery to me. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Lace Frog
I'm afraid I think this was purely an exercise in bolstering the teacher's ego and sense of power, rather than one in teaching!! Ruth Budge (Sydney, Australia) --- Jean Nathan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In my first lace class there had been a lady who'd been making lace for several years and who ,according to the rest of the class, was very competent in several types of lace. She'd had to leave the class when she moved out of the area, and the teacher in the class she then joined made her go back to producing a bandage and said she had to work through samples of basic elements to prove she could produce work of a satisfactory standard before she would be allowed to work on a piece of her own choice. Naturally she only stayed a couple of weeks. On the other hand two ladies joined the class I'm currently in last September. By February neither was aware of their limitations, so they had no limitations and were thoroughly enjoying what they were doing. Jean in Poole - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] Liberty's in London
I went shopping in there once in 1989, and was looking for a tie to take home to my Dad - I went into the rooms with ties - and have never seen so many in one place in my life! That was a wonderful experience! :-) Cheers, Helen, Aussie in Denver To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] Broadband
Broadband is available from Telstra. You buy the install it yourself kit from Harvey Norma for $129, and then connect up with Telstra. Depending on the amount of access to your internet you want the prices vary. I believe there is a minimum contract period of 18 months. Hope that helps. Lynn Scott, Wollongong, NSW wrote: I am hoping I can get some information about broadband in Australia. To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace-chat] photo
Just funny : http://www.anniecicatelli.com/liens.htm Sof from France without sun To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace-chat] au revoir, so long, ta ta - etc. . . .
Dear Toni, Well, ladies, it's been both fun and educational, but I'm not leaving to stagnate (compost ? g) - I will be 'growing' in a different direction. I'm sure some of us blokes are going to miss you too It was fun David in Ballarat To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
