Re: [lace] Diagrams
Sue, I'm glad you mentioned the ghost pillow, putting pins in the diagram. That was strongly recommended by Ulrike (Lohr) Voelcker in an Old Flanders class I took with her; she was also strong on expecting her students to understand the lace and do things the way they work best, not just slavishly following directions--showing that using a diagram is not contradictory to understanding the lace. Someone (Lorelei?) called her ghost pillow a voodoo board, a term that ever since I've been enjoying using as I stick pins in it! Nancy Connecticut, where I've fled south to a house with lights, heat, water, HOT water, working stove, microwave...aaahhh. (Power not expected to be restored at home until sometime this Sunday.) From: Sue Fink sarnia...@orcon.net.nz To: lace digest lace@arachne.com Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:12 AM Subject: [lace] Diagrams Hi All, Hear, hear Clay!! I could not agree with you more about using diagrams while making Binche!! In fact I go further, one pin in the lace - pin in the same place on the diagram... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Diagrams
Hi All, Hear, hear Clay!! I could not agree with you more about using diagrams while making Binche!! In fact I go further, one pin in the lace - pin in the same place on the diagram. I use map pins and have a colour coding of my own that I use. Green for a finished pin, yellow where there is a thread waiting for its mate to catch up and red for where I have to start next time I pick up my pillow!! No way do I regard it as cheating, its absolutely necessary for me. If I don't touch my lace for a week or two I could not pick it up again so quickly without my colour coded board!! I was so pleased to see Avital post a message asking people to cut the old messages when replying to a topic. Some of the recent ones have been incredibly long and when long replies follow long replies, well its just mind blowing!! I do hope there is no serious idea about moving Arachne from its current platform. I for one would not join if it was on Facebook or anything like that! It is possible to send pictures that you want to share with Arachne to a specially set up place (can't remember the details, but they are available!!) So what would be the point of moving it anyway!! Sue Fink In Masterton, New Zealand, where we have had some lovely sunny warm days recently (Sorry about the snow in America!!) - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
RE: [lace] Lace diagrams / twist
I recently took a class where the teacher said she doesn't mark the twists. This creates confusion. Drawing twists makes a diagram more error prone. Better no marks than wrong marks. So it is better to teach them by mouth in those situations they don't come natural with your level of understanding of the lace. It also depens on whether you are a tc-er or ct-er where the twists should be drawn. No twists makes the diagrams universal. Jo - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Lace diagrams / twist
I think it depends on the person using the diagram, the thread choice and whatever lace it is ;) I like to see twists marked that aren't part of our usual bobbin lace stitches! I can choose not to do them, or add more or less as it works out. If the markings aren't there to remind me - I forget. We had this posted in our teaching room at the local museum: I hear, I forget. I see, I remember. I do, I understand. then in pencil underneath someone had scribbled ' I'm old and need reminding.' (ha ha). That's me and lacemaking... I recently took a class where the teacher said she doesn't mark the twists. This creates confusion. Drawing twists makes a diagram more error prone. Better no marks than wrong marks. So it is better to teach them by mouth in those situations they don't come natural with your level of understanding of the lace. -- Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Lace diagrams
Dear Lacemakers- On the subject of diagrams, I find diagrams extremely useful and do try to make the lace without continuously looking back at the diagram. Sometimes it takes working a couple of repeats, but with each repeat of the pattern it is easier to make the lace without the diagram. When taking a class, having a very precisely drawn diagram with all twists marked clearly is a great help to learn the lace with all its fine points. I recently took a class where the teacher said she doesn't mark the twists. This creates confusion. Yes, lace can be made with variations to the stitches used but when trying to learn a particular type of lace, I like to learn the lace as it was done traditionally before using non-traditional techiniques. I guess I am saying you need to learn the rules before you can change the rules. Another advantage to having a diagram is that when your memory begins to fail or life gets complicated and your lace knowledge gets pushed to one side, when you sit back down to your lace pillow after a time away - you can refresh your memory by referring to the diagram. Post-it notes and diagrams and lists (and talking out loud to yourself) are just ways of keeping all that information in your brain better organized and more easily retrievable. Kathy -in cold Marcola, Oregon (sunny but near freezing this morning) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:30:11 - From: Alex Stillwell alexstillw...@talktalk.net Subject: [lace] Lace diagrams Hi Robin Re: I, however, learn a whole lot more having a diagram than without it. Without the diagram or someone to show me at least one way to work a difficult part, When you have no teacher or opportunity to learn from others these diagams have their place, and a big place too. Also you are one of the 'thinkers' who will learn from the examples in the diagrams and use them elsewhere. Many do not and faithfully continue follow diagrams for years without thinking about how it all works. They are my concern. Best wishes and continue puzzling over the diagrams Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: Subject: [lace] diagrams
Hi Chris, Not only have I concluded from a very interesting discussion that colored diagrams are not cheating, but in addition to being another tool to accomplish the task of making lace, they are also a valuable tool for learning about a type of lace--all depends on one's goals and how the tool is used! Nancy Connecticut, USA, in the cold and dark after the big storm :-( From: Chris Brill-Packard cbpu...@yahoo.com To: Arachne Lace List email lace@arachne.com Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:52 PM Subject: Subject: [lace] diagrams Nancy asked if colored diagrams were cheating. I do not believe it is cheating at all, since individuals learn differently. It is just one more tool in our tool box to accomplish the task of making lace. Sometimes we do not have a good picture of the lace nor do we have a sample of the lace to copy. The colored diagram gives us some of the close-ups for the techniques of the particular lace. Maybe I should say the more tools in our lace box - the better! Chris Brill-Packard - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Lace diagrams
Hi Arachnids - Original Message - From: Jenny Brandis je...@brandis.com.au To: 'Alex Stillwell' alexstillw...@talktalk.net; lace@arachne.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [lace] Lace diagrams Many do not and faithfully continue follow diagrams for years without thinking about how it all works. They are my concern. But they are still making lace - for years. Many stay on the 'easy' pieces rather than challenge themselves but they still make lace. Many go on to try more than one type of lace before mastering the first but they still make lace. Many follow the pattern and only do what is in the pattern, never learning to design their own, but they still make lace. They still get the pleasure of sitting peacefully doing a craft that brings them joy. What is wrong with that? There will always be the 'challenge myself' people who need to know why? how? what if? Those are the ones who go on to leading the rest with new ideas, techniques and patterns. Every leader needs followers! Every writer needs people to buy their books. It takes all sorts to make a world. regards Jenny Brandis Kununurra, Western Australia - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Lace diagrams
Dear Arachnids I agree entirely with what you say Jenny, but unless lacemakers know the advantages of understanding the techniques and teachers teach them many lacemaker will never go that one step further. I have taught workshops to many students who have only ever followed charts and the times I have heard 'Now I can see what's happening' and the beaming smile that goes with it and then receive the follow up 'thank you' when they have started working on other patterns without charts shows that many only need to be started along this road. Happy lacemking to all, whether you use charts or not Alex - Original Message - From: Jenny Brandis je...@brandis.com.au To: 'Alex Stillwell' alexstillw...@talktalk.net; lace@arachne.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [lace] Lace diagrams Many do not and faithfully continue follow diagrams for years without thinking about how it all works. They are my concern. But they are still making lace - for years. Many stay on the 'easy' pieces rather than challenge themselves but they still make lace. Many go on to try more than one type of lace before mastering the first but they still make lace. Many follow the pattern and only do what is in the pattern, never learning to design their own, but they still make lace. They still get the pleasure of sitting peacefully doing a craft that brings them joy. What is wrong with that? There will always be the 'challenge myself' people who need to know why? how? what if? Those are the ones who go on to leading the rest with new ideas, techniques and patterns. Every leader needs followers! Every writer needs people to buy their books. It takes all sorts to make a world. regards Jenny Brandis Kununurra, Western Australia - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] lace diagrams
Lorelei Halley wrote: Balance, it seems to me, is a middle ground that a really good lacemaker eventually achieves: respect for tradition, an understanding and acceptance of the lacemaker's discretion and personal interpretation in executing someone else's design (antique or modern), and the ability to use all this in the creation of her own completely new work. The Californian Poppy designed by Ulrike is a wonderful example, which proves beyond all doubt that 'there IS more than one way of skinning a cat'! To date there are 37 different variations/interpretations of this identical design. Each lacemaker has worked the poppies in her own particular field of expertise and has written a brief description to accompany her work,of the trials and tribulations encountered throughout the process and how she solved them. It will be travelling to the US next year to the IOLI Convention and will also be on display at the OIDFA Conference in Caen, France 2012. Catherine Barley UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Subject: [lace] diagrams
Nancy asked if colored diagrams were cheating. I do not believe it is cheating at all, since individuals learn differently. It is just one more tool in our tool box to accomplish the task of making lace. Sometimes we do not have a good picture of the lace nor do we have a sample of the lace to copy. The colored diagram gives us some of the close-ups for the techniques of the particular lace. Maybe I should say the more tools in our lace box - the better! Chris Brill-Packard - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Diagrams
Alex wrote: In my experience the majority of lacemkers will follow the diagrams faithfully without understanding what is happening and also they believe it is the only way the pattern can be made. My first instructor taught with colored diagrams, thread diagrams and prickings. She would have me color diagram a pattern from a picture of the lace first, then to do a thread diagram before I made the lace. Yes, it was time consuming - it was my homework before I had my lace lesson on the actual lace. Since I already knew stitches and my basic rules, she stated make another color diagram and thread diagram of another variation of the lace. I would then change the motifs or change grounds and/or change edges. We discussed the changes and the issues at hand, then I got to make the lace. I really wanted to make the lace! So this extra step made me think it through. Most often I would do the first lace and my variation. This motivated me and I did more lace. Gunvor taught me Tonder laces. As I advanced to the most difficult laces, when I would question areas of the colored diagram with what was actually transpiring on my pillow; Gunvor would state you understand the lace - it needs to be your decision if an extra twist is needed there or even fits in that space with the tightness of all the threads. As long as you are consistent throughout the pattern it will be fine. She told me our thread was different (thicker) than the antique laces so we might need to make some adjustments for it to look nice. She also showed me on her antique pieces where the lacer of the piece made changes in different motifs. Did the lacer forgot to be consistent or just changed her mind based on what the lacer preferred? To me lace is a puzzle for each of us to work through. Chris Brill-Packard - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Diagrams
Hi Everybody: I often wonder about the patterns we have that are reconstructions of old lace pieces. Did the lacemaker who examined the old piece and made the modern pattern: - draw the overall design and then make it herself and diagram what she did, or - examine the threads paths in one repeat of the pattern and diagram that, repeating that diagram for the length of the modern pattern Because either way it is not an exact replication of the old lace, is it? The original lace would have had differences from repeat to repeat. Now, I am not suggesting that it would be a good idea to make some unfortunate lacemaker go through every single twist and cross of an old piece of lace to make us an exact pattern. What I'm saying is that I think we need to develop our own skills and *own* the lace - do what looks right to us and not slavishly follow diagrams. That's what the old lacemakers did and that's why their work varies from repeat to repeat. I'm not quite good enough to do this all the time and do it competently, but when I can do it I feel very powerful and confident in my lacemaking and it becomes a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating. Sometimes I make bad decisions and lace myself into a really bad situation, but I'm sure if I made more lace those situations wouldn't happen as much. Plus, look to the future of lacemaking. If we didn't obsess so much about correctness, what fun we could have making our own designs! Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) Gunvor would state you understand the lace - it needs to be your decision if an extra twist is needed there or even fits in that space with the tightness of all the threads. As long as you are consistent throughout the pattern it will be fine. She told me our thread was different (thicker) than the antique laces so we might need to make some adjustments for it to look nice. She also showed me on her antique pieces where the lacer of the piece made changes in different motifs. Did the lacer forgot to be consistent or just changed her mind based on what the lacer preferred? - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] Diagrams
On Mon Oct 31st, 2011 7:17 PM PDT Adele Shaak wrote:Hi Everybody:I often wonder about the patterns we have that are reconstructions of old lacepieces. Did the lacemaker who examined the old piece and made the modernpattern:- draw the overall design and then make it herself and diagram what she did,or- examine the threads paths in one repeat of the pattern and diagram that,repeating that diagram for the length of the modern patternBecause either way it is not an exact replication of the old lace, is it? Theoriginal lace would have had differences from repeat to repeat.Now, I am not suggesting that it would be a good idea to make some unfortunatelacemaker go through every single twist and cross of an old piece of lace tomake us an exact pattern. What I'm saying is that I think we need to developour own skills and *own* the lace - do what looks right to us and notslavishly follow diagrams. That's what the old lacemakers did and that's whytheir work varies from repeat to repeat.I'm not quite good enough to do this all the time and do it competently, butwhen I can do it I feel very powerful and confident in my lacemaking and itbecomes a lot more fun and a lot less frustrating.Sometimes I make bad decisions and lace myself into a really bad situation,but I'm sure if I made more lace those situations wouldn't happen as much.Plus, look to the future of lacemaking. If we didn't obsess so much aboutcorrectness, what fun we could have making our own designs!AdeleNorth Vancouver, BC(west coast of Canada) Gunvor would state you understand the lace - it needs to be your decision if an extra twist is needed there oreven fits in that space with the tightness of all the threads. As long as youare consistent throughout the pattern it will be fine. She told me our thread was different (thicker) than the antique laces so we might need to makesome adjustments for it to look nice. She also showed me on her antique pieces where the lacer of the piece made changes in different motifs. Did thelacer forgot to be consistent or just changed her mind based on what the lacer preferred? Greetings to One All! A few years ago I made a pattern for a ribbon bookmark. (My contribution to a SCA tourney to benefit Susan Kolman Foundation. My Mom was a 13 yr survivor.) After around the 20th bookmark (I made over 50) in order to keep my sanity, I started playing around with the background stitches then the ribbon itself. Each became a unique creation. On some I was definately coloring outside the lines! Dare to color outside the lines, you'll never know what you'll create. Hugs, Susie Rose - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] diagrams
Alex wrote: In my experience the majority of lacemkers will follow the diagrams faithfully without understanding what is happening and also they believe it is the only way the pattern can be made. When travelling abroad to teach, a tutor has no idea of the experience/standard of work that each student has reached and usually relies on the student's assessment of her competence i.e. beginner, intermediate or advanced. When a student tells a tutor that she has reached an 'intermediate' standard, naturally the tutor assumes that she does not need as much attention/information as a complete beginner and is fully aware of the basics so will allocate a pattern requiring an intermediate level of skills. When giving a needlelace pattern to a complete beginner, the instructions give a 'route' to travel in laying the cordonnet (outline couching) for the pattern and there are several different routes than one may take, but I can't draw diagrams and written instructions for all of them , as this would be akin to writing a book, but always explain that there is 'more than one way of skinning a cat'! This is the basic and first lesson that one learns to do before actually starting a piece of needlelace - much the same as winding your bobbins, as you can't make bobbin lace without any thread on your bobbins any more than you can make needleace, without couching down a foundation on which to work. I had a student who was extremely rude to me because the instructions I had given her did not include the 'route' to follow for couching the cordonnet. I told her that if she was of an intermediate standard, she should know this; it was quite obvious to me that she was a complete beginner. I offered her a pattern with instructions suitable for a complete beginner, but she was adamant that she was of an intermediate standard! One of the main requirements of a tutor is that of patience. Catherine Barley UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
Oh I so agree Catherine. Maureen - Original Message - From: Catherine Barley catherinebar...@btinternet.com To: lace@arachne.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 9:42 AM Subject: [lace] diagrams Alex wrote: In my experience the majority of lacemkers will follow the diagrams faithfully without understanding what is happening and also they believe it is the only way the pattern can be made. When travelling abroad to teach, a tutor has no idea of the experience/standard of work that each student has reached and usually relies on the student's assessment of her competence i.e. beginner, intermediate or advanced. When a student tells a tutor that she has reached an 'intermediate' standard, naturally the tutor assumes that she does not need as much attention/information as a complete beginner and is fully aware of the basics so will allocate a pattern requiring an intermediate level of skills. When giving a needlelace pattern to a complete beginner, the instructions give a 'route' to travel in laying the cordonnet (outline couching) for the pattern and there are several different routes than one may take, but I can't draw diagrams and written instructions for all of them , as this would be akin to writing a book, but always explain that there is 'more than one way of skinning a cat'! This is the basic and first lesson that one learns to do before actually starting a piece of needlelace - much the same as winding your bobbins, as you can't make bobbin lace without any thread on your bobbins any more than you can make needleace, without couching down a foundation on which to work. I had a student who was extremely rude to me because the instructions I had given her did not include the 'route' to follow for couching the cordonnet. I told her that if she was of an intermediate standard, she should know this; it was quite obvious to me that she was a complete beginner. I offered her a pattern with instructions suitable for a complete beginner, but she was adamant that she was of an intermediate standard! One of the main requirements of a tutor is that of patience. Catherine Barley UK - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
RE: [lace] Lace diagrams
Also you are one of the 'thinkers' ... Many do not and faithfully continue follow diagrams for years without thinking about how it all works. They are my concern. Why worry so much? One mans ceiling is another mans floor. Of course you can try to encourage. Someone called teachers with diagrams lazy. When one of my students finds a pattern with too little instructions for her skills, I'm usually too lazy to create a full diagram. I just make snippets for the spots where they have problems or I expect difficulties. jo - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
While in Brugge this summer working diagrams were described to me as the Esperanto of lace by one of the shop keepers. Without these technical drawings our lace world would be much poorer and not as accessible; I don't read Dutch, Flemish or German but I have books on my shelves in these languages that I can use and follow because I have learnt to understand diagrams. The world of lace is much more accessible thanks to diagrams. For me the saying a picture is worth a thousand words rings very true here. I wonder if we were a multi language group whether we would be having this discussion? I should say that the vast majority of the lace I work now a days is Binche. If I work Honiton I now draw my own colour coded diagrams for any fillings Iâm not familiar with, for me this means I can work them much quicker (and they stick in my head quicker) than I would if I was following a sequence of words. How you interact with the diagram dictates whether it is more lace by numbers. I always try to understand what is going on in the diagram before I start by making my own drawing, tracing over a copy of the diagram at least once (on a complex Binche pattern I'll often do a pencil then a black ink tracing then a colour tracing of this). When I'm doing this I'm not just tracing lines I'm thinking stitches, inputs, outputs, exchanges, methods of transiting through cloth areas etc the same as I've been taught when attempting to design my own Binche patterns. When I come to my pillow and follow the diagram I'm not looking at the diagram cross by cross, I work sections with the picture in my head, although as a âformâ rather than a picture) â to me it's a bit like learning to read when a child recognise a word and doesn't need to spell it letter by letter. There is also the translation of what you see on the pillow in work to the diagram, I've got to the stage where I just see it and can swap between the two. To me working out the diagram is the challenge and the puzzle of lace, I've drawn diagrams for almost 25 years now to try and work out what to do in a pricking, perhaps if I'd had a teacher at the time things would have been different but I know I wouldn't have learnt as much. An interesting exercise that we do as part of Anne-Marieâs Binche class every year is to take a photocopy of an old piece of lace that has been greatly enlarged and trace over it to work out the stitches that have been used. Most people are relatively ok with the plaits and cloth areas but the one that gets lots of people every time is half stitch. As a teacher I find it fascinating watching something you think is easy tying experienced lacemakers up in knots and confusion, Iâve learnt so much about how others visualise and interpret lace through discussions weâve had that has gone on to help me when I explain things to students. I do use diagrams/drawings when I'm teaching/supporting my students but I'll have been training them to think about the diagram not just follow it blindly. Iâve also broken steps of working down into diagrams for students, one example is for a footside edge where I draw diagrams for students in four steps â I donât just given them the stage diagrams I sit down and talk them through each of the stages. I found this the most effective way of explaining a footside to students and found they could work it correctly that it sticks much quicker than when i hadnât drawn the stage diagrams for them. Susan --- Susan Roberts http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/susanroberts -Original Message- From: robinl...@socal.rr.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:27 AM To: Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] diagrams - Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com wrote: I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post.- I have come across this attitude before. Holly Van Sciver does not use diagrams when she teaches, believing people become too dependent on the diagram instead of coming to understand the lace. If this happens, the student is unable to progress to any other piece unless it, too, has a thread diagram. I think this is probably true for some people. I, however, learn a whole lot more having a diagram than without it. Without the diagram or someone to show me at least one way to work a difficult part, I spend a very long and frustrating time trying to figure it out. I get very discouraged and get little or nothing done. If I am shown, I am perfectly able to generalize from this instance to other, similar situations. I learn at least one way to work the problem and may make adjustments to work it other ways as well. The first time I encounter the situation, I may rely heavily on diagrams; the second I work as much as I can remember/understand and refer to the pattern periodically; the third time, I work
Re: [lace] diagrams -- summary?
This has been a fascinating and very illuminating discussion--thanks to everyone who contributed so far. One general (but not absolute) pattern (pun) I see in the posts is the difference between those working the complex and less regular Belgian laces and those working point ground or piece laces. I've done both, and I find doing my own diagrams for floral Bucks much easier than diagramming the Belgian laces (beyond the beginning designs). Clay's analysis of the origin of the standardised colored diagrams being associated with the Belgian laces was an important point in my understanding of the value and place of diagrams. Also, the observations about how one interacts with the diagrams seem to me to show that the answer to my original question (...are we cheating...) is it depends--on how we use and interact with the diagrams, as several pointed out. Plus the value of the diagrams at any stage for those of us learning mostly from books is important. On the other hand, the place of diagrams (or not) in teaching in a classroom setting is valuable only to the extent that they are used sparingly or generated by the students under the guidance of the teacher. This is what I've got out of the discussions so far. I hope others feel free to jump in, or to argue with the above attempt at a summary of a valuable discussion. Thanks again. Nancy Connecticut, where I am thoroughly snowed in, being above the snow line in the corner of the state that got 26+ inches. The rest of the day will be spent digging out a long driveway in the hope of getting to work tomorrow. No lace for me today. No power either. Complete bummer. From: Susan Roberts susanjrobe...@tiscali.co.uk To: Arachne lace@arachne.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [lace] diagrams ...I should say that the vast majority of the lace I work now a days is Binche ...How you interact with the diagram dictates whether it is more lace by numbers. ...To me working out the diagram is the challenge and the puzzle of lace, I've drawn diagrams for almost 25 years now to try and work out what to do in a pricking, perhaps if I'd had a teacher at the time things would have been different but I know I wouldn't have learnt as much, Susan --- Susan Roberts http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/susanroberts -Original Message- From: robinl...@socal.rr.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:27 AM To: Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] diagrams - Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com wrote: I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post.- I have come across this attitude before. Holly Van Sciver does not use diagrams when she teaches, believing people become too dependent on the diagram instead of coming to understand the lace. If this happens, the student is unable to progress to any other piece unless it, too, has a thread diagram. I think this is probably true for some people. I, however, learn a whole lot more having a diagram than without it. If I am shown, I am perfectly able to generalize from this instance to other, similar situations... Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com While in Brugge this summer working diagrams were described to me as the Esperanto of lace by one of the shop keepers. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] diagrams, lace fairies, lace police, enjoyment of lace, how we learn The Decoder Ring
Hello All! We may need to agree to disagree here. I do best when I am in a workshop get some expert supervision. At home, my brain turns to mush it isn't long before the whole thing escapes me. Re-reading my notes my self-colored drawings doesn't always click. In that case, pre-colored diagrams have saved my bacon. E-mail phone counseling doesn't hurt either. Bottom line, once the lace is off the pillow in use, no one will know what methods were employed to achieve the result! There are so many levels of lace knowledge on Arachne--but not everyone has the desire/time/resources to rise to the Master level. I admire you I salute your achievements. Goals are just that--something to shoot for. If set too high, frustration ensues. If set too low, laziness creeps in. So please don't let the lace police wring out all the enjoyment of lace lacemaking by prescribing only one way to Nirvana. It's like saying that the only enjoyment of Tosca comes from havin! g the score libretto in hand. While I've seen that-- how do you shush the page turners--there wouldn't be many folks in the audience if the aforementioned items were the price of admission! Lace fairies are a special group. They offer respite to the overwrought student with overheated brain cells. Along the way, I've taken a few forced marches myself upon my return, the lace fairy had worked her magic. Then I was ready to restart with a fresh outlook renewed enthusiasm rather than still untangling the c.t.ct.tc.cccttt in no particular order! The lace fairy rarely needs to visit me now, but it's comforting to know that she's hovering not far away. The Decoder Ring that Peg mentioned was designed by Marjorie Preece taught (I believe) at an IOLI event. It would be hard to forget the color code after completing the piece. Although I missed the beta class, my bobbins are still wound the pricking is ready to go. Yet another reason to bemoan the impending lo! ss of Tracy's shop in Cortland--I have several projects that need a su pervised launch. Robin, thank you for reminding us all that we are so fortunate to be able to decide whether we will use a diagram or no, hand-colored or pre-made. A few summers ago, our blind lacemaker friend taught guild members how to make lace. What an experience! Needless to say, everyone wanted to borrow Duncan, her guide dog. Did I mention that she likes Torchon but also makes Milanese? Sincerely, Susan Hottle, Erie, PA USA - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams -- summary?
Two points that I don't think were mentioned were that it is easier to dispense with diagrams if you tend to make only one kind of lace. In the US it is not unusual to make all different kinds of lace depending on who might be teaching within a couple hundred miles of where you live. So one often does not develop such a high lever of familiarity with a particular set of conventions. Another point that I didn't see mentioned was that sometimes it is rather fun to follow a challenging diagram. I particularly like Ulrike Lohr's which have so many different numbers and letters that she has to resort to different letter and number systems to refer you to techniques and even other books. She uses cardinal numbers, Roman numerals, and decimals, capital letters, small letters, sometimes Greek letters. I am waiting for the day that she runs out of letters and has to resort to Cyrillic or possibly Windings.This can be a lot of fun if you like puzzles. You sort of get in a zone where your mind is totally occupied. Devon In a message dated 10/30/2011 9:52:40 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nnef...@yahoo.com writes: This has been a fascinating and very illuminating discussion--thanks to everyone who contributed so far. One general (but not absolute) pattern (pun) I see in the posts is the difference between those working the complex and less regular Belgian laces and those working point ground or piece laces. I've done both, and I find doing my own diagrams for floral Bucks much easier than diagramming the Belgian laces (beyond the beginning designs). Clay's analysis of the origin of the standardised colored diagrams being associated with the Belgian laces was an important point in my understanding of the value and place of diagrams. Also, the observations about how one interacts with the diagrams seem to me to show that the answer to my original question (...are we cheating...) is it depends--on how we use and interact with the diagrams, as several pointed out. Plus the value of the diagrams at any stage for those of us learning mostly from books is important. On the other hand, the place of diagrams (or not) in teaching in a classroom setting is valuable only to the extent that they are used sparingly or generated by the students under the guidance of the teacher. This is what I've got out of the discussions so far. I hope others feel free to jump in, or to argue with the above attempt at a summary of a valuable discussion. Thanks again. Nancy Connecticut, where I am thoroughly snowed in, being above the snow line in the corner of the state that got 26+ inches. The rest of the day will be spent digging out a long driveway in the hope of getting to work tomorrow. No lace for me today. No power either. Complete bummer. From: Susan Roberts susanjrobe...@tiscali.co.uk To: Arachne lace@arachne.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [lace] diagrams ...I should say that the vast majority of the lace I work now a days is Binche ...How you interact with the diagram dictates whether it is more lace by numbers. ...To me working out the diagram is the challenge and the puzzle of lace, I've drawn diagrams for almost 25 years now to try and work out what to do in a pricking, perhaps if I'd had a teacher at the time things would have been different but I know I wouldn't have learnt as much, Susan --- Susan Roberts http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/susanroberts -Original Message- From: robinl...@socal.rr.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:27 AM To: Arachne Subject: Re: [lace] diagrams - Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com wrote: I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post.- I have come across this attitude before. Holly Van Sciver does not use diagrams when she teaches, believing people become too dependent on the diagram instead of coming to understand the lace. If this happens, the student is unable to progress to any other piece unless it, too, has a thread diagram. I think this is probably true for some people. I, however, learn a whole lot more having a diagram than without it. If I am shown, I am perfectly able to generalize from this instance to other, similar situations... Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com While in Brugge this summer working diagrams were described to me as the Esperanto of lace by one of the shop keepers. - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing
[lace] lace diagrams
All this talk of slavishly following diagrams and thinking that is the only way to work a pattern has me perplexed. I don't get it. I learned bobbin lace from Doris Southard's book. I enlarged her prickings and dotted them out on 4/inch graph paper, and worked them in 10/2 linen. Her photographs were very clear. Once I had the enlarged pricking I drew in lines connecting each pinhole to the ones where its thread came from, and where they would go afterward. In the process of doing this for each pattern I arrived at an understanding of why torchon pinholes are spaced the way they are. I came to understand what parts of a pattern can be varied and how those parts might be varied. When I teach I explain to students from the first day that the lacemaker has many choices to make about how she can vary a design and insert her own preferences. For those of you who think that a diagram teaches mindless repetition, I'm wondering if no one ever told you about ways to vary a pattern. Even a Binche design has places where the lacemaker can choose to insert her own preferences: snowballs can be made in half stitch or cloth stitch. The links between snowballs can be made in 4 different ways. Large sections of clothwork can have some areas in half stitch (though this is harder for a novice to judge). I have found the discussion of floral Bucks designs interesting especially the part about reading the pricking and deciding where pinchains work better that honeycomb. I've always thought of floral Bucks as a kind of fudger's paradise. You have got to get the threads going in the right direction, but the main problem is to make the cloth parts -- flowers and leaves -- dense enough to look good, without a cheesecloth appearance in certain areas. In the few floral Bucks (simple ones) that I've tried, I relied on the diagram to advise me about the best pinhole for bringing pair x into the clothwork to achieve a good cloth density. I'm assuming that the diagrammer has already figured this out, and I respect her advice. After all, why make a mess when I don't have to? But some of you all have noted that in antique laces you can often see that each repeat is worked differently. This alone tells us that there isn't just one solution to the problem of what do I do with THIS (Meaning this one pair that seems to be extra, where on earth did it come from and where is it suppose to go?) Possibly our discussion is really about underlying attitudes rather than about diagrams. I have met some lace teachers who are adamant that there is only one right way to do something, their school is the only one that teaches the lace corectly, and everybody else does it wrong. (Perhaps I exaggerate the attitude a bit.) In part this attitude is about respect for the tradition. But even with respect there are degrees and different ways of honoring the tradition. Balance, it seems to me, is a middle ground that a really good lacemaker eventually achieves: respect for tradition, an understanding and acceptance of the lacemaker's discretion and personal interpretation in executing someone else's design (antique or modern), and the ability to use all this in the creation of her own completely new work. I think of it like this. Bobbin lace technique is a 360 degree circle. Bobbin lace presents problems: how to attach the motifs of a design to each other, and to a ground. How to attach the ground to the foot. And so forth. These are all solutions to problems presented by the necessity to make a 2 dimensional object that won't fall apart. Each style of bobbin lace presents a set of solutions to these problems (uses a segment of this 360 degree circle). The styles of bobbin lace are actually sets of solutions. Learning each set increases the lacemaker's repertory of possible solutions. In creating a completely modern design the designer can choose to remain firmly within the tradition of a particular style, or may create something that is eclectic in its choice of solutions to problems. I'd better stop before this turns into a book. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams. (long)
Clay thank you so much for making the comment using continental laces as your example. I agree with all you say concerning the need for coloured diagrams. Further when working lace from the Dutch 17th century where the pricking consists of a few isolated pins, the diagram is essential. I suspect that where a person has had limited exposure to the wide variety of lace techniques then they pontificate and come out with blanket rules. I for one thinks that diagrams are great to get started on and for some forms are absolutely essential but once you get the hang of a techniques try it without diagrams and experiment. I for one sometimes wants the whole diagram set since I'm making lace to give as a gift an have limited time and do not want to reinvent the wheel ( 2 years ago I had 4 weddings within 6 months and bridal handkerchiefs were coming out of my ears). Other times I want to design and experiment. While Alex Stillwell does not like her students using diagrams and forces them to work things out for themselves is OK for Bucks it is NOT OK for the more complex European laces. One must have a lot of experience with Binche before you can design or experiment with different snowflakes. I should at this point mention that after attending one of Alex's floral Buck workshops recently I was very disappointed that she point blank refused to answer one of my questions concerning holes in kat stitch ground entering the main bucks floral pattern. She refused to answer this question twice. I do not think this helps students understand lace if a tutor refuses to answer questions. Earlier in the class she told a fellow student that there were NO rules in Buck but later this student was told that she had broken one of the rules of floral Bucks. If there are no rules, how could she break a rule? Both this other student and I are experienced lace makers who have taught lacemaking and wanted to learn the nuances of floral bucks compared to Tonder, Bayeau and Chantilly. We were not satisfied and learnt NOTHING from the class. Why should I pay to be told to experiment, I've spent 10 years experimenting and wanted to get a few answers which were denied. Anna from a balmy sunny Sydney On 30/10/11 7:43 AM, Clay Blackwell wrote: I've been reading, with interest, the various views on color coded diagrams, and thought I'm add my perspective. There are many laces which can be worked from the pricking alone - assuming you know what the various components are meant to look like. Especially in the smaller pieces which have repeating sections, the lacemaker is usually able to work without a diagram at all, let alone in color. To my knowledge (and I can depend on this list to correct me if I'm wrong!), the Belgian Color Code was developed because of the complexity of the traditional Belgian laces. Originally, lacemakers had worked without diagrams, using their knowledge of the desired effect and their skills with many techniques to achieve the finished lace. In fact, when studying old laces closely, it is not at all uncommon to see variations in the way repeats are worked. People who reconstruct old laces often look at numerous versions of a section of lace before deciding how they want to work it. Snowflakes are standard features in Flanders and Binche laces. If every type of snowflake known were drawn in black ink only, there might be several dozen drawings to represent them. However, you need to consider that those pairs in each snowflake might be worked c-t, or maybe c-t-c, or even c-t-c-t. And to add to the confusion, there might be various combinations of these stitches in each snowflake! And furthermore, not all snowflakes are the same in each piece, with different variations appearing side-by-side. I have made this point while talking about snowflakes, but the variations apply to every component of the lace! That is why, in anything but the most basic beginner pieces of Belgian lace, (a term that neatly covers many laces which share numerous techniques, making it difficult to say Binche, or Mechlin, for example), the color code is the essential tool for the person reconstructing the lace to convey the necessary information. This past summer at Lace at Sweet Briar Anny Noben-Slegers guided a group of experienced Binche lacemakers through the process of designing Binch/Flanders lace. We all were keenly aware of how important the color code is to communicating our intentions about the designs. Now, while working the piece I designed, I'm very grateful that I don't have to depend on my foggy brain to remember what I intended, nor do I have to follow a thousand footnotes. So, when you take your first courses in Binche or Flanders, don't skip learning the color code while you're at it. It will make it a great deal easier as you progress to more complex (and more exciting!) laces. I have still not worked any lace since the beginning of the month
RE: [lace] Lace diagrams
Hi All, The best thing about coloured diagrams is that it allows many more lace books to be printed, the one edition catering for up to 5 language groups. I am sure I am not the only one whose mind works quicker that than her hands, plans to do more lace have to be shelved, or to put off finishing something. The diagrams are useful to refresh ones memory when returning. Many of the books I have give coloured diagrams for only the early, simpler pieces. When looking at a book of a style of lace not familiar to me, it is useful to have the diagrams - as with the Swiss book with a different style of Point Ground I bought at the Lace Guild Week earlier this month - so I can understand the differences. Flanders is another lace that the learner understands better with coloured diagrams - have not actually made any, hope to book for a class in 2012. Correspondence, and Rosemary Shepard was my first teacher of Bobbin Lace and I think Rosemary's diagrams for the absolute beginner are the best available anywhere. For crochet, knitting and tatting diagrams make working those laces possible! Mary Carey Campbelltown, NSW, Australia - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] lace diagrams
I think people come to lacemaking the same way they do to anything else in the world. There are some people who love to be creative and will want to dive in immediately to see how the lace works. There are also lots of people that want to learn enough of the language to be able to work a certain type of pattern. There are also lots of people that learn things by rote, or only want to learn what is neccessary in that moment. I think it is important to honor each type of learning style, as they are vastly different. Of course, I am sure we have all run into some real humdingers either in classes we have taken or classes we taught, people who don't want to put in the time. But, I think people like that do not last long because they don't really want to be there, and they are also in the minority. When I was teaching kindergarten one year I had a student who could not learn to sound things out no matter how hard we both tried. I had never encountered a person like this in my 15 years teaching pre-k and k students. I went to a reading specialist as I was determined I must be lacking somehow as a teacher: there had to be something I was not doing. As it turned out, she told me there is a percentage of people who never learn to sound words out. They simply memorize. Sure enough, the child had been memorizing things and beggining to read that way. I was surprised as we put so much emphasis on phonics. I later learned there are many languages that do not have a sound symbol relationship, and everyone learns by rote. I think we tend to focus a lot on the creative process of lace, but I do think there are some people who are very much fulfilled not chewing on the puzzle and just being in the moment making the lace. I know I am guilty of focusing on the puzzle of it, that is what I find so enthralling about it! Kim On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Lorelei Halley lhal...@bytemeusa.comwrote: All this talk of slavishly following diagrams and thinking that is the only way to work a pattern has me perplexed. I don't get it. I learned bobbin lace from Doris Southard's book. I enlarged her prickings and dotted them out on 4/inch graph paper, and worked them in 10/2 linen. Her photographs were very clear. Once I had the enlarged pricking I drew in lines connecting each pinhole to the ones where its thread came from, and where they would go afterward. In the process of doing this for each pattern I arrived at an understanding of why torchon pinholes are spaced the way they are. I came to understand what parts of a pattern can be varied and how those parts might be varied. When I teach I explain to students from the first day that the lacemaker has many choices to make about how she can vary a design and insert her own preferences. For those of you who think that a diagram teaches mindless repetition, I'm wondering if no one ever told you about ways to vary a pattern. Even a Binche design has places where the lacemaker can choose to insert her own preferences: snowballs can be made in half stitch or cloth stitch. The links between snowballs can be made in 4 different ways. Large sections of clothwork can have some areas in half stitch (though this is harder for a novice to judge). I have found the discussion of floral Bucks designs interesting especially the part about reading the pricking and deciding where pinchains work better that honeycomb. I've always thought of floral Bucks as a kind of fudger's paradise. You have got to get the threads going in the right direction, but the main problem is to make the cloth parts -- flowers and leaves -- dense enough to look good, without a cheesecloth appearance in certain areas. In the few floral Bucks (simple ones) that I've tried, I relied on the diagram to advise me about the best pinhole for bringing pair x into the clothwork to achieve a good cloth density. I'm assuming that the diagrammer has already figured this out, and I respect her advice. After all, why make a mess when I don't have to? But some of you all have noted that in antique laces you can often see that each repeat is worked differently. This alone tells us that there isn't just one solution to the problem of what do I do with THIS (Meaning this one pair that seems to be extra, where on earth did it come from and where is it suppose to go?) Possibly our discussion is really about underlying attitudes rather than about diagrams. I have met some lace teachers who are adamant that there is only one right way to do something, their school is the only one that teaches the lace corectly, and everybody else does it wrong. (Perhaps I exaggerate the attitude a bit.) In part this attitude is about respect for the tradition. But even with respect there are degrees and different ways of honoring the tradition. Balance, it seems to me, is a middle ground that a really good lacemaker eventually achieves: respect for
[lace] diagrams
Fellow Arachnids, I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post. The full quote is It has colored diagrams for the whole thing, which is sort of paint by numbers, but if you think about what you are doing, and try to figure out why it is planned that way, you learn a lot. I agree with everything said except that paint-by-numbers reference. It's not that I don't think it is valuable to tackle a lace without a diagram. I have done my own diagramming of lace, for a relatively simple floral bucks pattern for example, and found it challenging but do-able. Also, I have found what I think are errors in diagrams (not just twists, but in thread paths), or at least places where I thought there was a better way to do something. One can indeed learn a lot from following diagrams--I agree with part of the statement. They are important for those of us who don't have easy access to a regular teacher and have learned lace mostly from books with clear diagrams and published patterns with the standardized-color diagrams. Finally, however, I think the colored diagrams are invaluable in lace reconstructions because they document how the original laces were actually made. Plus I find following a colored diagram in a wide piece of Binche or Old Flanders quite a bit more challenging than I ever found the one paint-by-number I started. (I don't remember finishing it, I think because I found it boring.) I think I found the phrase a little disconcerting because I have had to retro-lace more often than I care to admit because I've made a mistake in following the diagram in more difficult parts of the Binche I'm working on now. I just wondered what others think of using colored diagrams in making lace. Are we cheating a little, at least in modern designs? Nancy Connecticut, where the snow has started to fall... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
Lacemaking is a hobby, the diagrams are useful and in some cases necessary. For some laces, such as Binche, I for one am married to the diagram g Sometimes, if convenient, I use the diagram as the pricking! I like it when I don't need a diagram, it is a feeling of freedom but I'd be lost without one for most patterns. It is an interesting challenge to try a pricking without a diagram, nor even a photo of the finished lace - if that was the only way to make a lace, I'd soon give it up ;) On 10/29/11, Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com wrote: I just wondered what others think of using colored diagrams in making lace. Are we cheating a little, at least in modern designs? -- Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
From: Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com full quote is It has colored diagrams for the whole thing, which is sort of paint by numbers, but if you think about what you are doing, and try to figure out why it is planned that way, you learn a lot. I agree with everything said except that paint-by-numbers reference. This is exactly why I believe that pricking out a pattern helps you to understand and gain a feel for the pattern. Marking in the directions, stitches etc also help learn this. It is how I first learnt to deconstruct a pattern (the second way I learnt was to make lace backwards but I'm not going off on that one again. L Kind Regards Liz Baker thelace...@btinternet.com My chronicle of my bobbins can be found at my website: http://thelacebee.weebly.com/ - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] diagrams
Nancy I agree with you that diagrams are very useful. I would even say they are essential for learning and working the more complex laces such as Flanders, Binche and Valenciennes. And more, for those of us who usually learn from books instead of live teachers, good diagrams are absolutely essential to advancing one's knowledge. If I ever get to the point with Flanders, Binch and Valenciennes that I can work them without a diagram I will count myself a master lacemaker. And if I ever reach that point, I won't be working other people's patterns or copying antique examples, I will be inventing my own patterns. I don't actually expect to get that far in my lifetime. But there are obviously some few who have arrived at it, and those are the people who are designing new Flanders and Binche patterns and writing books about them. Using a diagram is more like using a tutorial that comes with a computer program, or using the help function that is embedded in the program. It isn't really like paint by numbers at all. When I'm explaining something to a student, or helping a friend, I often draw a diagram to explain what I think the lacemaker should do: it is clearer than verbal descriptions and looks more like what is actually on the pillow. a verbal description has to be translated into an image in the student's head before she can follow the instruction. A diagram does the translation work. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
I think we are 'cheating' a little. On the other hand, we aren't spending time in the convent learning a lace pattern we will make for the rest of our lives, either. Making yardage, you learn the pattern from the diagram, but after some repeats, the number depending on the complexity, you ignore the diagram. Lacemakers go from one piece to another, and most lacemakers make more than one kind of lace. Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying making lace with a diagram, because then I know exactly what to do at that particular point. And I am learning a new kind of lace, on my own, no teacher. I hate to say this, but it just seems too easy. I'm waiting for the other shoe to fall. Call me crazy. And the diagram, with a possible exception of twists at the edges, is completely accurate, so I'm never confronted with pondering why the diagram isn't working with the pricking. Also, this is a relatively simple piece of lace, where I'm not confronted with multiple motifs, different grounds and the like. One element at a time. I recently took a course where the teacher flat out told us that the goal was to be able to read the pricking. And in the part laces, where the 'pricking' is actually a line drawing, one is constantly making decisions about the number of pairs to use, what stitch to use for light and shade, all that sort of thing. A colored diagram, which instructs pinhole by pinhole just doesn't afford such freedom, or give such responsibility to the lacemaker. Is this good or bad? I don't know. Might be necessary. Certainly is welcome to me as a student of this kind of lace. Lyn in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, US, where they've closed the libraries, churches are beginning to close for today. West of us is much more serious. Power outages are occurring. -Original Message- From: Nancy Neff Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 1:56 PM To: Arachne Subject: [lace] diagrams Fellow Arachnids, I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post. The full quote is It has colored diagrams for the whole thing, which is sort of paint by numbers, but if you think about what you are doing, and try to figure out why it is planned that way, you learn a lot. I agree with everything said except that paint-by-numbers reference. It's not that I don't think it is valuable to tackle a lace without a diagram. I have done my own diagramming of lace, for a relatively simple floral bucks pattern for example, and found it challenging but do-able. Also, I have found what I think are errors in diagrams (not just twists, but in thread paths), or at least places where I thought there was a better way to do something. One can indeed learn a lot from following diagrams--I agree with part of the statement. They are important for those of us who don't have easy access to a regular teacher and have learned lace mostly from books with clear diagrams and published patterns with the standardized-color diagrams. Finally, however, I think the colored diagrams are invaluable in lace reconstructions because they document how the original laces were actually made. Plus I find following a colored diagram in a wide piece of Binche or Old Flanders quite a bit more challenging than I ever found the one paint-by-number I started. (I don't remember finishing it, I think because I found it boring.) I think I found the phrase a little disconcerting because I have had to retro-lace more often than I care to admit because I've made a mistake in following the diagram in more difficult parts of the Binche I'm working on now. I just wondered what others think of using colored diagrams in making lace. Are we cheating a little, at least in modern designs? Nancy Connecticut, where the snow has started to fall... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
Yes, Lorelei! I've always felt like the diagram was a diagrammatic version of a computer algorithm. Nancy Connecticut ...Using a diagram is more like using a tutorial that comes with a computer program, or using the help function that is embedded in the program. ... - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
Re: [lace] diagrams
- Nancy Neff nnef...@yahoo.com wrote: I am interested in what you all think about the colored diagrams that accompany much published lace. I was struck by the phrase which is sort of paint by numbers in a recent post.- I have come across this attitude before. Holly Van Sciver does not use diagrams when she teaches, believing people become too dependent on the diagram instead of coming to understand the lace. If this happens, the student is unable to progress to any other piece unless it, too, has a thread diagram. I think this is probably true for some people. I, however, learn a whole lot more having a diagram than without it. Without the diagram or someone to show me at least one way to work a difficult part, I spend a very long and frustrating time trying to figure it out. I get very discouraged and get little or nothing done. If I am shown, I am perfectly able to generalize from this instance to other, similar situations. I learn at least one way to work the problem and may make adjustments to work it other ways as well. The first time I encounter the situation, I may rely heavily on diagrams; the second I work as much as I can remember/understand and refer to the pattern periodically; the third time, I work it more-or-less fine but may refer to something on the pattern; after that I usually don't need the pattern and I will remember the solution for future, similar situations. Robin P. Los Angeles, California, USA robinl...@socal.rr.com - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://community.webshots.com/user/arachne2003
[lace] Diagrams again (long, I'm afraid)
As I was in at the beginning of the current round on the use of diagrams, in that it was triggered by Tamara commenting on my comments to her, but haven't actually posted on it, I thought I should set out what I was interested in, especially as the subsequent debate has illuminated some of it. I think it is fairly obvious that when it comes to showing how a particular stitch is done, or how some technique works, a standard diagram can be invaluable, and not using one where it is appropriate, on grounds of tradition or authenticity, is counter-productive and not very sensible at best. It is now as basic and useful as standard music notation is. For the sort of recording of laces that Jeri is interested in, it is nearly ideal, and it is nice to see (latest OIDFA magazine again) that they want to pursue her idea of establishing a standard notation. The point I had picked on was the one Lorelei made explicitly, that it does depend on the lace. The extreme example is, I think, Torchon, where the designer, patternmaker and maker all can follow a standard to get the desired results. The designer may well work with and through diagrams, and the maker who wants to adapt or redesign a pattern is not going to be inhibited in any way by the diagram - indeed, it may well make it easier to substitute one stitch for another, or devise new stitches, and adapt a pattern for a different shape or width. Indeed, to continue the music metaphor, standard diagrams and Torchon go well together, as they provide most of the information needed. Some laces can be different - the order of working may be important, possibly the tension, and there are only a couple of basic stitches anyway - so a non-standard notation may be useful - rather as lute or guitar tablature instantly tells you not only the note, but which fret of which string to use, something which standard music does not do as well. I was considering what I think of as the other extreme, the jazz laces, where the standard notation may not be as appropriate to describe the whole piece, and the use of it may inhibit recreating works in the original tradition. This seems to me to be the case with the English East Midlands laces, where following diagrams for the whole piece (not just the odd tricky bit or unusual filling) stops the worker adapting to circumstances and adding and throwing out as needed. It's clear that the designers and patternmakers did not work from or even to diagrams. Anne Buck's Thomas Lester book makes this quite clear, showing old partly created patterns, with the motives outlined first, then the fillings put in, and only then the holes for the cloth, and then the ground. The ground grid would not necessarily be that of the fillings - in general, the angle is often different, and the ground can be on a larger scale. In the Paisley pattern in the Art Trade or Mystery book, the ground gets denser in the last inch and a half towards the footside - the pattern is ten inches at its widest. It looks very effective, must have been quite a challenge to work, and I really doubt if it would have been done on a pattern designed on a grid and produced with a full working diagram. Some lovely modern designs use the same grid for fillings and ground, and this can be a weakness; the honeycomb in a flower almost always looks better if on a finer grid and more acute angle, and certainly it is worth considering the effect of a change. The only really floral Bucks pattern in Miss Channer's book (which does use diagrams where appropriate) shows this; there are two repeats on the pricking and on the sample - and each repeat is different, and worked differently! It's in the original and revised editions of the book, and the differences are I think best seen in the leaf motive in the ground, though once you get your eye in, they can be seen elsewhere. And that's an instruction book for beginners! The original book is quite emphatic on the need to sort out what to do on the pricking as you go along, and to do repeats differently if it suits. This did not all survive into the later editions. Of course, using diagrams can help. My favourite example is the eagle cuff on pages 56 and 57 of Anne Buck's book. The worker clearly hadn't cracked the wheel ground until she'd worked a fair bit, and if someone had put something down on paper (or possibly even marked the pricking) it would not have been a problem. But you don't really notice that; what does strike is the liveliness of the working of the birds, with the denser and more open cloth and the veining giving them and the lace such life and spontaneity. I do feel the worker added to the designer's efforts like a jazz performer, and this dimension would be lost if a formal diagram had been produced and followed. Using our different threads, I suspect you would have to recreate to get the right effect rather than follow the original thread for thread. I think the main debate between Tamara and me was
Re: [lace] Diagrams again (long, I'm afraid)
In a message dated 24/08/2004 21:14:05 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think it is fairly obvious that when it comes to showing how a particular stitch is done, or how some technique works, a standard diagram can be invaluable, and not using one where it is appropriate, on grounds of tradition or authenticity, is counter-productive and not very sensible at best. I have had a period of about 6 years where I made minimal lace - about 3 or 4 pieces a year and have realised that my empathy for patterns had diminished. I had got to the point where I could look at a pattern and feel how it should be made. Now I intellectually know but don't have that empathy because I'm not making lace all the time. Yes, it will come back but in the mean time I thought that using diagrams would help me but this has been a two edged sword. Yes, it's allowed me to make pieces that I would have shied away from recently (but happily done before) but then I realised that it's made me dependent on the diagrams so I've started to go back to the way I learnt to make lace - and that's to look at the picture of the lace and feel how it is made. It's working! I'm getting the old empathy back. Regards Liz in London I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Diagrams again (long, I'm afraid)
To Leonard, and to Liz - I am SO envious of the empathy you have experienced, Liz... and Leonard, I am SO in touch with the need to follow diagrams in order to understand how to create what we are seeing... To my way of thinking, you are not at all contradictory - just expressing different stages of development in the grand pursuit of knowledge in lacemaking. And, to be fair, if I decide to pursue Torchon lace for a lifetime, I believe that I could cut the umbilical after a relatively short period of time. If I choose to pursue Point Ground laces, I can learn the moves fairly quickly, but in order to be true to the many variations on a theme (Bucks, Tonder, Bayeux, Downton, Blonde de Caen, Malmesbury, etc., etc.), I'm sure that I would continue to rely on diagrams (at least intermittently) to be sure that those subtle differences were observed. When it comes to the continental laces, the learning curve is much more demanding, and the need for the diagrams is more protracted. And ANY time a new lace is explored, it would be hopeless without benefit of the diagram. For those who are long-term students and devotees of one type lace, the diagram is not essential. For those who continue to explore the vast schmorgasbord of laces, the diagram is something we treasure. (Yes... we tend to be Americans, and consider ourselves somewhat blessed that we do NOT have a regional tradition!). Nevertheless, I reaffirm... I strive for that moment of Zen lace, when I can simply create a stunning piece without the diagram. (Did it once! Still tingle with excitement! It was Torchon!!) But I'm with you as well, Leonard! Without the diagrams, I'd be helpless in the face of the challenges of new laces!! Hats off to all of you! You're STILL one among millions in the world!! Clay - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [lace] Diagrams again (long, I'm afraid) In a message dated 24/08/2004 21:14:05 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think it is fairly obvious that when it comes to showing how a particular stitch is done, or how some technique works, a standard diagram can be invaluable, and not using one where it is appropriate, on grounds of tradition or authenticity, is counter-productive and not very sensible at best. I have had a period of about 6 years where I made minimal lace - about 3 or 4 pieces a year and have realised that my empathy for patterns had diminished. I had got to the point where I could look at a pattern and feel how it should be made. Now I intellectually know but don't have that empathy because I'm not making lace all the time. Yes, it will come back but in the mean time I thought that using diagrams would help me but this has been a two edged sword. Yes, it's allowed me to make pieces that I would have shied away from recently (but happily done before) but then I realised that it's made me dependent on the diagrams so I've started to go back to the way I learnt to make lace - and that's to look at the picture of the lace and feel how it is made. It's working! I'm getting the old empathy back. Regards Liz in London I'm back blogging my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link or going to http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Diagrams
Dear Lacemakers, The discussion of the merits of diagrams, etc. (and introducing originality) comes on the heels of two weeks of pouring over a lace collection with lace identification experts - attempting to accurately describe and identify as many individual items as possible. Imagine the problems that future lace identification experts will encounter!!! Just a thought that noone else has voiced, from an amused reader. Jeri Ames in Maine USA Lace and Embroidery Resource Center - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] diagrams (was Chantilly babble)
From: Tamara P. Duvall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I've just had a private message from Leonard (not yet answered; sorry g), musing on the advantages/disadvantges of diagrams. I agree with him up to a point: diagrams do clip our wings, and limit our imagination/flexibility; they ossify our lace, making us fearful to stray from the path... Where, surely, the old-time lacemakers thought on the pillow, and did what was needful to get the best effect... I beg to differ. I learn a whole lot from a diagram, about how that lacemaker solved the problems associated with that pattern and how that region's lacemakers developed their distinctive style. I use it as a learning tool, so I can file away the techniques for when they may be needed again (like, when there isn't a diagram). But I make no promises to follow the diagram's details. Since I learn primarily through the visual channel, I get very little out of someone explaining things to me but I get a lot out of seeing a map. When I take a class where the teacher doesn't believe in diagrams because they're limiting, I generally get little out of the class. I'm unlikely to even continue the pattern on the pillow, because I don't understand it. If I have diagrams during the class, I come to *understand* how that style of lace is put together. After a couple of repeats, I don't need either diagrams or explanations, and I can take the project home and continue without help (and go on to other patterns of that style). Yes, I can forego both diagrams and explanations, relying on my knowledge and trial-and-error. If I'm well-versed in the lace, that's not bad. However, I like to learn new kinds of lace and they all have different tricks that have been worked out over the centuries. Why should I have to re-invent all the wheels that go with that lace? Unlike Tamara, I strongly dislike re-inventing wheels. Why should I waste time and thread trying to figure out how something is done, discover that won't work, and have to start over again, just because it's a new (to me) style of lace? Give me a diagram and I can learn the conventions of the style, *then* do what I want. And when I solve problems for myself without a diagram, I haven't learned that style of lace. My decisions aren't necessarily appropriate to a particular style. Like the first time I tried a Bucks pattern, I used Torchon techniques. That's right, CTpCT ground, among other things. The lace looks OK, but it's sure not Bucks! Nor is it Torchon (it's a 52 degree grid). It's Pittsburgh lace or Panza lace. For that project, it was fine, but I couldn't say I'd ever done Bucks at that point. Apparently *some* people become overly dependent on diagrams and never transfer the information on them into knowledge about lace. However, don't penalize the rest of us who need to convert words to diagrams in order to understand the words. Robin P. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA http://www.pittsburghlace.8m.com/ - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] diagrams (was Chantilly babble)
I like diagrams a lot too. I agree it's a good idea to try to change things to get the effect you like instead of just following the pattern exactly, but first I'd like to know how whoever made the pattern did it, since they probably have a better idea of what they're doing than I do... And even if I don't like the way they're doing something, I can keep the diagram and maybe use the method in another piece. Diagrams are a really nice way of concisely showing exactly what's going on, so great for notes. When I design my own piece or change one I got from a book, I'll often draw my own diagram, so that all my repeats are the same - otherwise I'd either have to look at the previous repeat very closely to remember what the hell I was doing there, or just try to figure out each one separately to get the rigth effect and end up with a whole lot of slightly different repeats for no good reason (unless I'm actually not sure which method is best, in which case I'll happily make a bunch of slightly different repeats to see how they look). And especially since I'm a beginner, I often just have no idea how to get a particular effect, so I'd have a lot of trouble trying to figure it out on my own... Explanations work (preferably written - I can't keep to many spoken words in my head at once), but diagrams are better, since I'm also a largely visual person. On Wed, Aug 18, 2004 at 04:22:43PM -0400, Panza, Robin wrote: I beg to differ. I learn a whole lot from a diagram, about how that lacemaker solved the problems associated with that pattern and how that region's lacemakers developed their distinctive style. I use it as a learning tool, so I can file away the techniques for when they may be needed again (like, when there isn't a diagram). But I make no promises to follow the diagram's details. -- Weronika Patena Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] diagrams
Robin and Tamara and all I think we've had similar discussions on the usefulness of diagrams before. I think in this matter I'm closer to Robin's view than Tamara's. It may be a function of the kinds of lace we are trying to make. In learning a traditional form of lace which has a recognized set of rules, like Flanders, for instance, one first learns the recognized authentic set of rules accepted by the traditional experts in that form. If one then designs new patterns for that form and wants to make them available to others, it is useful to stick to the accepted authentic rules for that form, and to construct a diagram on how to make it that follows those rules. The reason for this is that most people who would want to make your design will probably assume, once they've seen you describe it as a new Flanders design, that it will follow the accepted rules and that they will be able to figure it out from your diagram. My impression is that most lacemakers in America are strongly traditional in their outlook and approach to bobbin lace. I am not saying that all lacemakers SHOULD be traditional in their approach, but that most are. My impression also is that in Europe this is not the case, that there is more innovative, rules-breaking lacemaking going on there. Those lacemakers who want to authentically reproduce traditional laces in the traditional manner will probably want diagrams that they can follow to make these authentic copies. But lacemakers who are inventing their own laces may very well not care whether they follow rules or diagrams. And there is no reason why they should. In my own practice, I'm sometimes a diagram follower, and sometimes a diagram spurner. If I'm doing Flanders I am absolutely going to follow the diagram and may not even be able to MAKE the lace at all without one. Since I am still learning that form and count myself only at the intermediate level. I want to do it right and I sure as hell can't figure it out on my own, yet. If I'm doing tape lace or torchon, or even geometric point ground, I figure it out as I go, and may decide to improve on what the diagram shows. In Beds I sometimes get exasperated by the diagrams and decide to just do it my way. In my original floral free/part lace designs I mix Honiton and Duchesse techniques and get those threads going where I want them any old way I can. And I don't care whether anyone disapproves. But in the two Withof workshops I took ten years ago, I went home each evening and spent the whole evening making detailed diagrams of every little thing the teacher had explained to me. And wrote verbal notes as well. But those diagrams are my future crib sheet for the next Withof design I try to make. Without those diagrams I wouldn't be able to even start. So why is my attitude about Withof different from my attitude about my own designs? Because Withof experts have a sense of an accepted, authentic body of techniques that they have themselves been developing since the 1980s. It isn't Withof unless it uses their designs and their method, but especially their method. I personally find their method interesting because it introduces a whole new set of ideas about how to solve problems, like that crazy bundle that surrounds each motif and gives relief to lines even within each motif. Once I master their concepts you'll be finding crazy bundles popping up in my own designs (but that is years off yet). Tamara I have the impression that you are a very creative lacemaker who is constantly inventing new designs. So it makes sense that you are impatient with diagrams. It goes with the territory. But a lacemaker who is in love with the traditional forms, and is not yet such a total master of a particular form that she doesn't need guidance, will want to have a detailed diagram to follow (like Robin who learns the design after 2 repeats and then doesn't need the diagram). Now me, with Flanders I still haven't totally mastered why and when each technique is supposed to be used, and until I do understand it, I won't be able to design for it. I will only count myself as a Flanders expert, or advanced Flanders lacemaker, when I CAN design for it. But that is my personal definition of expert. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] diagrams (was Chantilly babble)
Another thing diagrams are very useful for is when using threads in different colors - I can just go over the diagram with a colored pencil and I know where all of my threads are going, and I can fiddle if I'd prefer them to go somewhere else. Much harder with verbal descriptions... Weronika -- Weronika Patena Caltech, Pasadena, CA, USA http://vole.stanford.edu/weronika - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
