Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Reinier Olislagers]

On 26/10/2013 16:52, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> Marco van de Voort schrieb:
> 
 In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after
 students
 were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is
 still too
 much.
>>> Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)
>>
>> Same problem as with an Dos emulator for TP. Concepts too alien, install
>> troubles etc.
> 
> Problems are quite different. A full DOS emulator includes a lot of low
> level stuff (running real-mode programs, disk formatting,
> networking...), that is not required for program development. A C64 or
> similar emulator can use virtual devices instead, interprets also the
> programs to run, and screen output is simple with a (fixed size) paintbox.
> 
> My experience with development systems also suggests an installation in
> a virtual machine. VM software installation is extremely simple,
> compared to an FPC/Lazarus installation and configuration, and a single
> VM can contain a fully installed and configured development system,
> ready for educational use. When somebody succeeded in breaking his
> system, a simple restore of the initial VM state allows to proceed
> normally within seconds (sandbox).
> 
> At the same time the students can learn about virtual machines
> (optional), which later also should be used in professional software
> development. A VM is insensitive to hardware replacement/upgrade, and
> allows continued use of a specific compiler version. See the persistent
> trouble with RadStudio installations, caused by upgrades of either
> Delphi or Windows - currently Win8.1 causes such trouble, and on Linux
> it will be ongoing GUI (gtk...) upgrades.
> 
> Plus a VM can be isolated perfectly from the real world, unreachable by
> NSA and other exploits and attacks (Merkel... ;-)
> 
> 
>> I was actually flabbergasted by how little pre existing
>> knowledge/experience
>> the avg student understood of the console concept. And that was in
>> 2005-7,
>> now it will be even less.
> 
> Nowadays cloud experience is more important than DOS experience. How
> many jobs will you find later, wich require DOS experience and coding,
> compared to the many jobs for writing (mobile) GUI and cloud applications?
> 
> 
 Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.
>>> This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the
>>> interested can learn more about using Delphi.
>>
>> This energy does not exist outside mandatory classes :-)
> 
> It exists, it's only a matter of motivation. Let the students suggest
> projects of *their* interest, then teach them the useful techniques for
> their projects - learning by doing can be mere fun :-)
> 
> DoDi
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Marco van de Voort schrieb:


In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students
were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too
much.

Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)


Same problem as with an Dos emulator for TP. Concepts too alien, install
troubles etc.


Problems are quite different. A full DOS emulator includes a lot of low 
level stuff (running real-mode programs, disk formatting, 
networking...), that is not required for program development. A C64 or 
similar emulator can use virtual devices instead, interprets also the 
programs to run, and screen output is simple with a (fixed size) paintbox.


My experience with development systems also suggests an installation in 
a virtual machine. VM software installation is extremely simple, 
compared to an FPC/Lazarus installation and configuration, and a single 
VM can contain a fully installed and configured development system, 
ready for educational use. When somebody succeeded in breaking his 
system, a simple restore of the initial VM state allows to proceed 
normally within seconds (sandbox).


At the same time the students can learn about virtual machines 
(optional), which later also should be used in professional software 
development. A VM is insensitive to hardware replacement/upgrade, and 
allows continued use of a specific compiler version. See the persistent 
trouble with RadStudio installations, caused by upgrades of either 
Delphi or Windows - currently Win8.1 causes such trouble, and on Linux 
it will be ongoing GUI (gtk...) upgrades.


Plus a VM can be isolated perfectly from the real world, unreachable by 
NSA and other exploits and attacks (Merkel... ;-)




I was actually flabbergasted by how little pre existing knowledge/experience
the avg student understood of the console concept. And that was in 2005-7,
now it will be even less.


Nowadays cloud experience is more important than DOS experience. How 
many jobs will you find later, wich require DOS experience and coding, 
compared to the many jobs for writing (mobile) GUI and cloud applications?




Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.
This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the 
interested can learn more about using Delphi.


This energy does not exist outside mandatory classes :-)


It exists, it's only a matter of motivation. Let the students suggest 
projects of *their* interest, then teach them the useful techniques for 
their projects - learning by doing can be mere fun :-)


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> > Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)
> 
> Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(

Sadly enough they were, though not the highest level (aimed for bachelor as
end-diploma).  But since it was their first weeks at the school, one could
consider them secondary school students still. Extremely playful, and
interested in anything but work.

 
> > In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students
> > were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too
> > much.
> 
> Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)

Same problem as with an Dos emulator for TP. Concepts too alien, install
troubles etc.

I was actually flabbergasted by how little pre existing knowledge/experience
the avg student understood of the console concept. And that was in 2005-7,
now it will be even less.

> > Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.
> 
> This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the 
> interested can learn more about using Delphi.

This energy does not exist outside mandatory classes :-)
 
> > The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer,
> > and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton GUI
> > app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their
> > programs to use the skeleton units.
> 
> In your timeframe (9*1.5 hrs) I wouldn't address GUI programs at all.

I don't, that is exactly the point. But I would have wanted something the
students recognized as an IDE (read GUI app) that is hardwired to generate a
visual app, without iniviting students to do things beyond their assignment.

Later, when they are properly potty-trained they can still graduate 

 Even if that is only an
inmutable skeleton with a memo for input and output.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Paul Breneman]

On 10/20/2013 07:07 AM, Paul Breneman wrote:

On 10/20/2013 05:22 AM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

Marco van de Voort schrieb:

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:25:25AM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker,
e.g. a Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students
can learn how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1
hour, sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The
Art of Computer Programming" [Knuth].


Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)


Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(


In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after
students
were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is
still too
much.


Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)



Creating and using a GUI can become a detached course, covering both
the general GUI design principles and how to master event driven
applications.


My point was that TP was too alien, and the tricks to keep it running
prevented it for students to run it on their own laptop.


ACK


Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.


This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the
interested can learn more about using Delphi.


The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without
designer,
and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton
GUI
app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their
programs to use the skeleton units.


In your timeframe (9*1.5 hrs) I wouldn't address GUI programs at all.


Almost 6 years ago I started this educational project:
   http://www.turbocontrol.com/monitor.htm

Several times I've used it to introduce people to programming.  I
usually start by downloading a small zip file from here:
   http://www.turbocontrol.com/helloworld.htm

After we compile and run the program I next show them the (few) files
involved and try to give them a picture of how the source is changed
into the executable.

What I'd like to have is a very simple IDE to go to next.  So a
"stripped Lazarus" as mentioned above might be good.  Graeme (the fellow
in the subject) has an IDE started with fpGUI that might (eventually)
work too.  You can quickly see an earlier version of that IDE using a
zip from this page:
   http://www.turbocontrol.com/easyfpgui.htm


Last year I bought ten kits similar to this:
  http://www.parallax.com/product/90005
Those are my favorite way to introduce programming, by blinking a single 
LED on and off every second.


On that page you can download the PDF for the book, and also the editor 
software (it used to be written with Delphi or C++ Builder).



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Paul Breneman]

On 10/20/2013 05:22 AM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

Marco van de Voort schrieb:

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:25:25AM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker,
e.g. a Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students
can learn how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1
hour, sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The
Art of Computer Programming" [Knuth].


Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)


Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(


In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students
were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is
still too
much.


Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)



Creating and using a GUI can become a detached course, covering both
the general GUI design principles and how to master event driven
applications.


My point was that TP was too alien, and the tricks to keep it running
prevented it for students to run it on their own laptop.


ACK


Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.


This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the
interested can learn more about using Delphi.


The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer,
and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton
GUI
app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their
programs to use the skeleton units.


In your timeframe (9*1.5 hrs) I wouldn't address GUI programs at all.


Almost 6 years ago I started this educational project:
  http://www.turbocontrol.com/monitor.htm

Several times I've used it to introduce people to programming.  I 
usually start by downloading a small zip file from here:

  http://www.turbocontrol.com/helloworld.htm

After we compile and run the program I next show them the (few) files 
involved and try to give them a picture of how the source is changed 
into the executable.


What I'd like to have is a very simple IDE to go to next.  So a 
"stripped Lazarus" as mentioned above might be good.  Graeme (the fellow 
in the subject) has an IDE started with fpGUI that might (eventually) 
work too.  You can quickly see an earlier version of that IDE using a 
zip from this page:

  http://www.turbocontrol.com/easyfpgui.htm


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Marco van de Voort schrieb:

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:25:25AM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a 
Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students can learn 
how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1 hour, 
sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The Art of 
Computer Programming" [Knuth].


Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)


Yes, I was thinking of IT students. Sorry for that :-(


In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students
were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too
much.


Then a good ole homecomputer (C64 emulator...) would be more useful ;-)


Creating and using a GUI can become a 
detached course, covering both the general GUI design principles and how 
to master event driven applications.


My point was that TP was too alien, and the tricks to keep it running
prevented it for students to run it on their own laptop.


ACK


Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.


This energy could be used in extra (voluntary) courses, where the 
interested can learn more about using Delphi.



The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer,
and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton GUI
app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their
programs to use the skeleton units.


In your timeframe (9*1.5 hrs) I wouldn't address GUI programs at all.

DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 12:25:25AM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a 
> Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students can learn 
> how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1 hour, 
> sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The Art of 
> Computer Programming" [Knuth].

Either your students were different, or that is very optimistic :)

In this class, all this simply ate too much time, and even after students
were ackward with it. And it was only 9 x 1.5 hr, then an hour is still too
much.

> Creating and using a GUI can become a 
> detached course, covering both the general GUI design principles and how 
> to master event driven applications.

My point was that TP was too alien, and the tricks to keep it running
prevented it for students to run it on their own laptop.

Delphi on the other hand invited too much play.

The ideal usage IMHO would be a stripped lazarus/Delphi without designer,
and some skeleton application under "new" that instantiates a skeleton GUI
app (delivered in .ppu), and the students can use procedures from their
programs to use the skeleton units.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 04:45:48PM +0200, Mattias Gaertner wrote:
> > IIRC I installed DOS 6.2 in VirtualBox, and then used it to install
> > Win98SE (from which I had no bootable CD or image).
> > All this on Win7-64.
> 
> What has this to do with Lazarus?

FPC/trunk has a 16-bit compiler, and I assume you'll port Lazarus to it? :-)

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Lukasz Sokol]

On 17/10/13 16:35, Lukasz Sokol wrote:
> On 17/10/13 14:05, Reimar Grabowski wrote:

>> Now I feel like I have to apologize for making fun of you as my mail
>> clearly went straight over your head. I am sorry. Can this discussion
>> now finally end here?
>>
>> R.
>>
> http://xkcd.com/1207/
> 
> :)
> 
> -L.
> 
And http://xkcd.com/493/

:)
-L



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Lukasz Sokol]

On 17/10/13 14:05, Reimar Grabowski wrote:
> Looks like I have to explain my last mail. It was just a test to see
> if you get that this discussions is off-topic or if you keep it going
> as long as somebody (me in this case) is willing to fuel it. You even
> missed or (most probably) ignored the last and most important
> statement. But the best part is that you took my proposal for
> teaching beginners seriously. Teaching them C and JS (or even PHP),
> Pascal being for advanced programmers only (and all of that on a
> Pascal related mailing list), really highly amusing.
> 
> Now I feel like I have to apologize for making fun of you as my mail
> clearly went straight over your head. I am sorry. Can this discussion
> now finally end here?
> 
> R.
> 
http://xkcd.com/1207/

:)

-L.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Jürgen Hestermann]

Am 2013-10-17 15:05, schrieb Reimar Grabowski:

Can this discussion now finally end here?


No. ;-)

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Reimar Grabowski]

Looks like I have to explain my last mail.
It was just a test to see if you get that this discussions is off-topic or if 
you keep it going as long as somebody (me in this case) is willing to fuel it.
You even missed or (most probably) ignored the last and most important 
statement.
But the best part is that you took my proposal for teaching beginners 
seriously. Teaching them C and JS (or even PHP), Pascal being for advanced 
programmers only (and all of that on a Pascal related mailing list), really 
highly amusing.

Now I feel like I have to apologize for making fun of you as my mail clearly 
went straight over your head. I am sorry.
Can this discussion now finally end here?

R.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Michael Schnell schrieb:

On 10/16/2013 04:34 AM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:


C certainly is not safe enough for beginners, and has too few data types.
Java script IMHO is horribly "unsafe" and has no (strict) data types. As 
it _is_ recommended for beginners. (Not a good choice at all, IMHO.)


I'd distinguish between "beginners" and "students":

Beginners appreciate a language that is easy to master, even without 
further studies.


Students instead should understand programming principles first, before 
digging into the differences between programming languages.


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Michael Schnell]

On 10/16/2013 04:34 AM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:


C certainly is not safe enough for beginners, and has too few data types.
Java script IMHO is horribly "unsafe" and has no (strict) data types. As 
it _is_ recommended for beginners. (Not a good choice at all, IMHO.)


-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Michael Schnell]

On 10/15/2013 03:48 PM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:


VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...);


IIRC, we did use 16 bit clients as well in VMWare as in VBox.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Sven Barth]

Am 16.10.2013 00:51 schrieb "Hans-Peter Diettrich" :
>
> Sven Barth schrieb:
>
>> On 15.10.2013 15:48, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on
>>> an 64 bit host.
>>
>>
>> If the CPU is fully emulated (e.g. QEMU without KVM) then it should be
no problem.
>
>
> That's not the point.

That is exactly the point, because you said that you weren't sure wether it
is possible to run 16-bit code in a 32-bit VM on a 64-bit system. Florian
and I simply confirmed that it is indeed possible.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Reimar Grabowski schrieb:

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 00:25:25 +0200 Hans-Peter Diettrich
 wrote:


For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker,
e.g. a Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems.

But not as a starting point. As a starting point you should teach C.


NAK

During my studies I've learned about 30 programming languages, and none
was C because it didn't exist at that time. Instead we started with
Algol 60, of which Pascal is a mini-descendant, Simula for OOP, Lisp as
a functional language, APL etc.  Understanding and implementing 
algorithms is not related to a specific language, and C certainly is not 
safe enough for beginners, and has too few data types.



Plain and vanilla C and not some obscure language like Pascal (these
are reserved for advanced programmers). Maybe a little object
oriented programming in C (no C++) and GUI and event driven
programming in C and multi-platform programming in C, as time
permits. Most important is not how exactly or on what systems you
teach students. The most important part is that they know C after the
course and that people who fail to understand pointers in all their
beauty fail the course (they would never be good programmers anyway).


C in fact is only a high-level assembler, allowing (or requiring) tricks 
with pointers and other low-level stuff, that are not necessary in 
better equipped languages. It may be useful together with assembler in 
an hardware or OS implementation course.



 Next thing is Javascript.


You can add any current languages later, after the students have learned 
how to translate algorithms into well structured code.


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Reimar Grabowski]

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 00:25:25 +0200
Hans-Peter Diettrich  wrote:

> For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a 
> Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems.
But not as a starting point. As a starting point you should teach C. Plain and 
vanilla C and not some obscure language like Pascal (these are reserved for 
advanced programmers). Maybe a little object oriented programming in C (no C++) 
and GUI and event driven programming in C and multi-platform programming in C, 
as time permits.
Most important is not how exactly or on what systems you teach students. The 
most important part is that they know C after the course and that people who 
fail to understand pointers in all their beauty fail the course (they would 
never be good programmers anyway).
Next thing is Javascript. Does not need to be much JS as you write in C and 
compile to JS anyway but a little knowledge is needed.
Now that the students know C and can compile it to JS the Web is all theirs. 
Win.
If you think C is too hard for the students just give them PHP and be done with 
it. Win.
If you think the language is not important but the concepts are teach them 
pseudo code and write on paper. No need for any computers. Cheap and to the 
point. Epic win.
And one last but very important thing. Teach them about technical mailing lists 
and chat rooms and especially their differences. Teach them about on- and 
off-topic discussions. Teach them how to behave if you have politely been 
informed that your discussion actually is off-topic and they will become better 
coders and the Web will be a nicer place for us all.

R.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Sven Barth schrieb:

On 15.10.2013 15:48, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on
an 64 bit host.


If the CPU is fully emulated (e.g. QEMU without KVM) then it should be 
no problem.


That's not the point. You even can teach people using (emulated) punched 
cards for job control and coding, but such knowledge is of no use on 
nowadays systems. Teaching OS specific console operations (commands...) 
is related to IT, but not to writing programs in general.


For writing programs you need some editor and an compiler/linker, e.g. a 
Lazarus IDE which runs on a variety of systems. Then students can learn 
how to use a console (window) for program I/O in about 1 hour, 
sufficient for the following introduction and practice in "The Art of 
Computer Programming" [Knuth]. Creating and using a GUI can become a 
detached course, covering both the general GUI design principles and how 
to master event driven applications.


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Florian Klämpfl]

Am 15.10.2013 20:08, schrieb Sven Barth:
> On 15.10.2013 15:48, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
>> I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on
>> an 64 bit host.
> 
> If the CPU is fully emulated (e.g. QEMU without KVM) then it should be
> no problem.
> 

This is not needed, 16 bit applications on Windows XP work fine in
Virtual box running on W7 64 Bit.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Sven Barth]

On 15.10.2013 15:48, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on
an 64 bit host.


If the CPU is fully emulated (e.g. QEMU without KVM) then it should be 
no problem.


Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[waldo kitty]

On 10/15/2013 9:48 AM, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:

waldo kitty schrieb:

On 10/15/2013 8:55 AM, Sven Barth wrote:



No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit Windows. The
reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- and 64-bit.


'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not install
virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 16bit apps? that
is part of "proper configuration" after all ;)


VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but probably only
on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).


it was an example and something that today's BBS operators have to do if they 
offer DOS BBS door games and utilities on their BBSes... i don't have to deal 
with this right now since i still have true DOS environments available fir this 
but the concept is still the same... i do, actually, have the DOS version of FPC 
available which i use for compiling code i've written on my winwhetever boxen... 
i also compile that same code with the OS/2 version of FPC ;)




I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on an 64
bit host.


me either but there are solutions out there ;)

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Sven Barth]

Am 15.10.2013 15:06 schrieb "waldo kitty" :
>
> On 10/15/2013 8:55 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
>>
>> Am 15.10.2013 14:08 schrieb "waldo kitty" > >:
>>
>>  >
>>  > On 10/15/2013 12:52 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" <
skalogryz.li...@gmail.com
>> >:
>>
>>  >>  > On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort <
mar...@stack.nl
>> > wrote:
>>  >>  >>
>>  >>  >> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console
cmdline and
>>  >>  >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>>  >>  >>
>>  >> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be
just
>>  >> start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines,
don't know
>>  >> about *nix systems).
>>  >>
>>  >> This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they
don't support
>>  >> 16-bit applications anymore.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper
configuration" come
>> into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;)
O:)
>>
>> No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit
Windows. The
>> reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- and
64-bit.
>
>
> 'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not install
virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 16bit apps?
that is part of "proper configuration" after all ;)

In my opinion Dmitry meant without 3rd party programs as he explicitely
mentioned DOS and XP.

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Reimar Grabowski]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 17:08:17 +0200
Dave Coventry  wrote:

> > Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast.
> 
> To be fair, the topic was the relevance of Pascal/Delphi/Lazarus in a
> modern teaching environment.
Some start out 'Lazarus related'
 
> I suppose the degeneration into running 16 bit applications on a
> modern Operating system evolved from there...
but they deteriorate very fast

Point proven.

R.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dave Coventry]

On 15 October 2013 16:58, Reimar Grabowski  wrote:
> You are long enough on this list to know that long threads NEVER have 
> anything to do with Lazarus.
> Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast.

To be fair, the topic was the relevance of Pascal/Delphi/Lazarus in a
modern teaching environment.

I suppose the degeneration into running 16 bit applications on a
modern Operating system evolved from there...

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Reimar Grabowski]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:45:48 +0200
Mattias Gaertner  wrote:

> What has this to do with Lazarus?
You are long enough on this list to know that long threads NEVER have anything 
to do with Lazarus.
Some start out 'Lazarus related', but they deteriorate very fast.

R.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Mattias Gaertner]

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 16:39:24 +0200
Bart  wrote:

> On 10/15/13, Hans-Peter Diettrich  wrote:
> 
> > VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but
> > probably only on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).
> 
> IIRC I installed DOS 6.2 in VirtualBox, and then used it to install
> Win98SE (from which I had no bootable CD or image).
> All this on Win7-64.

What has this to do with Lazarus?

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Bart]

On 10/15/13, Hans-Peter Diettrich  wrote:

> VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but
> probably only on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).

IIRC I installed DOS 6.2 in VirtualBox, and then used it to install
Win98SE (from which I had no bootable CD or image).
All this on Win7-64.

Bart

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

waldo kitty schrieb:

On 10/15/2013 8:55 AM, Sven Barth wrote:


No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit 
Windows. The
reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- 
and 64-bit.


'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not 
install virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 
16bit apps? that is part of "proper configuration" after all ;)


VirtualBox does not support 16 bit OS (MS-DOS...); VMWare does but 
probably only on 32 bit hosts (never tested on my 64 bit Windows).


I'm not sure whether it's possible to run 16 bit code in a 32 bit VM on 
an 64 bit host.


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[waldo kitty]

On 10/15/2013 8:55 AM, Sven Barth wrote:

Am 15.10.2013 14:08 schrieb "waldo kitty" mailto:wkitt...@windstream.net>>:
 >
 > On 10/15/2013 12:52 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
 >>
 >> Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" mailto:skalogryz.li...@gmail.com>>:
 >>  > On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort mailto:mar...@stack.nl>> wrote:
 >>  >>
 >>  >> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline 
and
 >>  >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
 >>  >>
 >> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
 >> start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't 
know
 >> about *nix systems).
 >>
 >> This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't 
support
 >> 16-bit applications anymore.
 >
 >
 > i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper configuration" come
into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;) O:)

No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit Windows. The
reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32- and 64-bit.


'scuse me? are you saying that the system administrator would not install 
virtual box or something similar so as to enable the use of 16bit apps? that is 
part of "proper configuration" after all ;)



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Sven Barth]

Am 15.10.2013 14:08 schrieb "waldo kitty" :
>
> On 10/15/2013 12:52 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
>>
>> Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" <
skalogryz.li...@gmail.com>:
>>  > On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort 
wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console
cmdline and
>>  >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>>  >>
>> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
>> start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't
know
>> about *nix systems).
>>
>> This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't
support
>> 16-bit applications anymore.
>
>
> i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper configuration"
come into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play
;) O:)

No, not in this case. The NTVDM does simply not exist for 64-bit Windows.
The reason is related to switching the processor's mode between 16-, 32-
and 64-bit.

Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[waldo kitty]

On 10/15/2013 12:52 AM, Sven Barth wrote:

Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" :
 > On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
 >>
 >> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
 >> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
 >>
with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't know
about *nix systems).

This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't support
16-bit applications anymore.


i would think that that is where the phrase "with proper configuration" come 
into play and even moreso when "(by system administrator)" is in play ;) O:)


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Sven Barth]

Am 15.10.2013 01:30 schrieb "Dmitry Boyarintsev" :
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort 
wrote:
>>
>> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
>> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>>
> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't
know about *nix systems).

This will fail on Windows 64-bit systems (including XP) as they don't
support 16-bit applications anymore.

Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[wkitty42]

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:25 PM, Marco van de Voort  
wrote: 
> On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Michael Schnell wrote: 
> > > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
> > > instant-gratification 
> > 
> > Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all. 
>  
> Why bother then, just pass them all, and forget about stressing any of them. 

exactly... social promotion in education and the work environment have really 
brought standards down over the last 20 (at least) years... we need to learn 
from our mistakes to move forward and achieve greater learning...



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[wkitty42]

On Monday, October 14, 2013 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort  
wrote: 
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 05:14:14PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote: 
> > > Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good 
> > > educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not 
> > > contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much. 
> > > 
> > > How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact 
> > the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os). 
>  
> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and 
> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc) 

really? i just put an icon on the desktop that opens TP directly or it opens a 
console window in the necessary directory and they take it from there... this 
on winwhatever and OS/2... other things like timeslicing came later and were 
advanced techniques to work on...
 
> They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the 
> end 
> gave up. 

sadly this is understandable... too many give up too soon, these days, because 
they don't get instant gratification... kinda like the schools giving out those 
bumper stickers saying "proud parent of a high school student" vs the original 
"proud parent of an honor roll student" and similar... it is well known that 
constant (and many times undeserved) ego boosting results in less achievement 
and lower quality results... this is even seen in such things as simple 
exercising at the gym where trainers drive and praise you but your results take 
longer and longer to achieve...



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
>
> Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
> general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)
>
> with proper configuration (by system administrator) the tp would be just
start and use (at least it was so for XP and earlier MS  machines, don't
know about *nix systems).

How about Delphi's console applications? No 8.3 limitation, can be ran from
GUI.
Doesn't need to teach stdin/stdout as they are, instead teach for: "the
computer waits for user to type something in and press enter". As well as
stdout is actually "the window with text". No need to bother with working
dir as well.

And yet again, nothing but pure problem solving. (no guis, message queues,
event handlers etc).

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 09:25:51PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from
> "Children" list of this page?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language

Looks like a list filled by the creators rather than the users.
 
> Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section.

With an IMHO totally wrong description, but let's nog go there. Life is too
short to rectify all unnecessary and false slights to Pascal.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 05:14:14PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> > Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
> > educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
> > contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.
> >
> > How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact
> the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

Because you first need to teach people dos (and 8.3), console cmdline and
general concepts (stdin/stdout, working dir etc)

They stuck with it a long time (mostly for the lack of better), but in the end 
gave up.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 09:38:24AM +0200, Michael Schnell wrote:
> > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
> > instant-gratification
> 
> Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all.

Why bother then, just pass them all, and forget about stressing any of them.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Michael Schnell]

On 10/12/2013 01:36 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
instant-gratification


Better than frustrating the "weaker" students with no gratification at all.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Michael Schnell]

On 10/12/2013 09:18 PM, wkitt...@windstream.net wrote:

Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

IMHO the contrary is true.

Using Delphi (or Lazarus) you can concentrate on the problem solving , 
while doing status outputs and only-for-testing inputs is nearly for free.


You can argue that this (RAD) leads to being trained to do bad software, 
as for a _final_product_ it is much better to separate GUI oriented 
units from "Business logic" units (as this allows for better portability 
and easier maintenance).


But this is a completely different argument.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Antonio Fortuny]

  
  

Le 12/10/2013 13:36, Marco van de Voort
  a écrit :


  On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:

  
There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education
commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.

So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and
graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.

Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

  
  
One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
instant-gratification.

1

Antonio.

  

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from
"Children" list of this page?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_programming_language

Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section.



On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev <
skalogryz.li...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Marco van de Voort wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
>> educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
>> contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.
>>
>> How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact
> the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).
>
> thanks,
> Dmitry
>
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
>
> Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
> educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
> contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.
>
> How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact
the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

thanks,
Dmitry
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 02:51:31PM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> > One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a 
> > good
> > choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not 
> > spending
> > their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.
> 
> What's a form worth without a task and event handlers?

(essentially to all replyers)

The course changed from TP to Delphi (as tool) and suddenly a lot more time
was spend on non-programming.

Not everything vaguely related (to IT) is part of a /programmer's/ course.
We knew students could click around in GUIs just fine. That was not what the
course was about. 

Btw, the course abandonned TP because too many students were unfamiliar
with the concept of console apps. Explaining it took a too large part of the 
course, and due to its (101) nature it had to be early in the curriculum.

> > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> > instant-gratification.
> 
> Modern (portable) devices are GUI based

I hope they use it in the Mobile development class then. This was not the
mobile development class. This was introduction to programming (not UI
design, not Mobile, not, not, ...) :-)

So the idea is that the students, euh, spend their time programming.


Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[wkitty42]

On Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:36 AM, Marco van de Voort  
wrote: 
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote: 
> > Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense. 
>  
> One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a 
> good 
> choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not 
> spending 
> their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment. 
>  
> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives 
> instant-gratification. 

we've been seeing this for what? 20 years, now? even m$ operates in the mind 
set of "a pretty interface trumps (unseen) sickness and disease" al la "yeah, 
i'd hit that unless someone tells me it has an STD... even then, i still might 
hit it" al la "we've redone the GUI to make it prettier but the seedy 
underworld of skiddies and hackers can still get in thru the same holes they've 
been using for the last decade" :lol: :angel_horns:



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Hans-Peter Diettrich]

Marco van de Voort schrieb:


One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.


What's a form worth without a task and event handlers?


Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
instant-gratification.


Modern (portable) devices are GUI based, so that mastering a GUI is 
important. Not everybody likes to control the progress and results of 
some task by writing WriteLn statements, so that a GUI *in addition* to 
console applications is a good base for all students.


DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Jürgen Hestermann]

Am 2013-10-12 13:36, schrieb Marco van de Voort:
> One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
> choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
> their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.
> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> instant-gratification.

Yes, that's true.
But as always when learning the best motivation is rapid success.
And learning without beeing able to make use of it is not useful.
So a developement envrionment that lets you create a GUI program quickly is 
neccessary IMO.
Although the language is only one part (libraries and IDE are nearly as 
important)
it is still usefull to choose a clear and easy to learn language so I also would
recommend to use Pascal at School (and of course in "real life" too if 
possible).

The question is: Why *not* use Pascal?
There maybe constraints that forces you to use another language later on
but at School this is not the case (in general).
And pupils should know how easy and clear a fast programming can be
to judge all other awkward or slow languages so they *need* to know Pascal.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dave Coventry]

On 12 October 2013 13:36, Marco van de Voort  wrote:
> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> instant-gratification.
>

My view is that instant gratification is the key.

Once they see how easy it is to produce an application, some will look
to develop the possibilities.

The ones that get side tracked by making the Forms pretty; well,
they'll probably concentrate on web design.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education
> commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.
> 
> So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
> The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and
> graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.
> 
> Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
instant-gratification.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Marco van de Voort]

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 08:18:16PM +0100, vfclists . wrote:
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy 
> 
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123

Makes the classic mistake of assuming there is no difference between chosing
a certain approach/tool/whatever for educational purposes and the use of
that particular approach/tool after graduation.

Remember, this is basic education.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dave Coventry]

On 12 October 2013 09:44, Graeme Geldenhuys  wrote:
> But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has
> no idea what the other is doing!

I'm afraid that corruption is rife in the Education Department, too,
so some kind of ministerial incentive from Microsoft cannot be ruled
out.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 12/10/13 07:00, Dave Coventry wrote:
> 
> Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment
> here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

The "MS Office mandate" is what is really confusing me. The South
African government was always very pro to open source products and open
standards. eg: using ODT file format for official government documents.
The [Mark] Shuttleworth Foundation also did (or does - the last time I
checked) fantastic work in South Africa, promoting open source and free
alternatives like Ubuntu, Edubuntu, and setting up teaching centres etc.

But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has
no idea what the other is doing!

Regards,
  Graeme


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Graeme Geldenhuys]

On 11/10/13 20:18, vfclists . wrote:
> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

One of the comments sum it up perfectly:  "kickbacks rule once again...
who gives a  about the kids..."


Lets just hope this was a bad joke.


Regards,
  G.



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dave Coventry]

On 12 October 2013 04:21, leledumbo  wrote:
> 3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as
> well, guys?

Yes, one of them would be me. (Rinkhals).

Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment
here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

"You get what you pay for" is a phrase I hear a lot.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[leledumbo]

3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as
well, guys?



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[vfclists .]

I suspect is its a trick to introduce Linux by the back door. If their
Delphi programs can easily be switched to Lazarus the software will be easy
to convert to Linux and the Mac


On 11 October 2013 20:18, vfclists .  wrote:

> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?
>
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy 
>
>
>
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123
>
> --
> Frank Church
>
> ===
> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
>



-- 
Frank Church

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Nikolay Nikolov]

On 10/11/2013 10:18 PM, vfclists . wrote:

You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA 
Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in 
contradiction of government's own policy 



http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123


E:

"Python, PHP, Java, Javascript... any 21st Century language would be 
better than Delphi. Any. Any at all."


I just don't know what to say...

Nikolay
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Benito van der Zander]

Well at least they are mandating Delphi.

Could be worse, could be Visual Basic...


On 10/11/2013 09:18 PM, vfclists . wrote:

You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA 
Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in 
contradiction of government's own policy 



http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123

--
Frank Church

===
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dave Coventry]

Debate on here, if anyone's interested in contributing:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/565779-Delphi-and-MS-Office-forced-on-South-African-schools/page4

On 11 October 2013 21:18, vfclists .  wrote:
> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?
>
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy
>
>
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123
>
> --
> Frank Church
>
> ===
> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
>
> --
> ___
> Lazarus mailing list
> Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org
> http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
>

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[Dmitry Boyarintsev]

Nice!

There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education
commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.

So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and
graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.

Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

thanks,
Dmitry


On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 3:18 PM, vfclists .  wrote:

> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?
>
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy 
>
>
>
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123
>
> --
> Frank Church
>
> ===
> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
>
> --
> ___
> Lazarus mailing list
> Lazarus@lists.lazarus.freepascal.org
> http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
>
>
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[Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

[vfclists .]

You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
contradiction of government's own policy 


http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123

-- 
Frank Church

===
http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
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