Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kwon wrote: >> Some times ago, I rebooted an old LRP floppy based Firewall (with an >> uptime of 2 years) only to discover that the floppy has gone. From that >> moment I use Compact Flashes. >> My 2 cents > Do you mean you don't have another "backup" of your floppy disk? Of course, I had anoother floppy :-) But it was not working, too :-( And I had another backup-image on my PC :-) That has not floppy :-( So I went to a store for a USB Floppy Drive :-) Only to discover I'd not the correct drive :-( But, with the help of BigG, I discovered it on the Internet :-) Then I installed the driver and made a copy of the floppy Only to discover that the old floppy was malfunctioning :-( So i passed on CF ... Sorry for the long story ;-) Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGnx2g4yUxzYWi6QcRAtZSAKDZ4yoLReM3W3YTK3ChMNBtDsZjPwCggliv aUCuuxaMZpD4WQcSwerIVR4= =ILdi -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Imagine this scenario, you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Regards, Harry. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin with? I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Tony Harry Lachanas wrote: > Imagine this scenario, > you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, > would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? > > Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, > I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. > > Regards, > Harry. > > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > > leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user > Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ > > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
> This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried > about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin > with? > Not so old!!! Depends on case. > I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base > seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. > Agreed, I guess is ok or whatever for home use or simple cases. Even though for home use is a waste of energy having an old PC instead of a small routerboard like device 12-24V. Harry - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Tony wrote: > This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried > about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to begin > with? > > I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, but the user base > seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. > > Tony > > Harry Lachanas wrote: >> Imagine this scenario, >> you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, >> would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? >> >> Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, >> I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. >> >> Regards, >> Harry. >> Imagine this scenario, I'm a person who hates to throw working stuff away. So I have two identical back-up machines ready in the shelf if my main Hw decides to buy the farm. I have recently also salvaged a 5½ floppy drive just in case I want to go really medieval on this...and yes I have the floppies for a lifetime. I could always go to the Pc-superstore and buy a ready system. What's the fun in that? All releases are tried and if accepted by my "let's see if this works" method are made to a disk image complete with settings and all needed drivers but nothing extra for quick recovery. There is always two identical disks ready for service. Disk will only be read once a month in average. I usually also pull the media out after booting since firewall is protected by a UPS so it will stay up even if there is power outage, same goes for ADSL. Actually there was a blackout recently and only electronic devices still on in our neighborhood were my firewall and ADSL and the UPS beeping...creepy. OK but to the point. Is there a tried and easy method to make a IDE-CF image based on the disk version I'm now using? -Marko - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
On Thursday 19 July 2007 18:11:55 Harry Lachanas wrote: > Imagine this scenario, > you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, > would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups > around? > > Floppy disk devices have movable parts, CFs don't, usb-sticks don't, > I personally haven't used any floppies for 4 years now, period. Harry; I agree - the less movable parts a router has, the more reliable it will be over the years. Therefor LEAF provides ISO images, USB images and the ability to boot from harddisk, CF and whatever. One good reason to provide a floppy-based version is not just about to reuse old hardware, which btw is always a good starting point for new users to get in touch with a more secure and better adaptable software than delivered with the usual SoHo routers. For developers the "floppy orientation" is more or less a synonym for discpline and concentration on the goals. In contrast to the early days the costs for storage space is neglectable today. And yes, USB sticks are cheaper and easier to buy than floppy disks. It's easy to build a router based on Debian or any other Linux distro. But it's questionable if users have that easy that much control over the software installed, and therefor the potential security issues. In the long run the "embedded" aspect in LEAF may get more attention than today, so space will become more important again. The whole issue started with the question "can we go with a 2.6 kernel and what about the floppies then?". IMHO moving forward to a 2.6 kernel is a good idea. For the floppy versions the current branch can be maintained for a long time - as long as users understand that only harwdare supported by the 2.4 kernels can be used and that not every new package (version) can be added, because it can't be backported (easily). A floppy version based on 2.6 kernel may be doable as well, but for less usage scenarios than today (dhcpd and pppoe are both on the current images), maybe without a ntp daemon and other software. So either as proof-of-concept or by building several floppy images instead of one as today. So it's mainly not a question of preserving floppies as one target or forget about it; it's mainly a question of manpower to start with new versions, probably ports to other architectures beyond the x86 as of today and to improve the tools we developed over the last years to build LEAF software. kp - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
> Imagine this scenario, > you have LEAF boxes spread all over your country, > would you trust floppy disks on your installations even with backups around? I don't! I have only a few clients that are using Leaf boxes and the setup is identical: Old PC, 64-128mb Ram, CD with original .iso, 3 NICs and a floppy I also have endless supplies of the above hardware. Btw, Linux and open source are all about choice(s). - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marko Nurmenniemi wrote: > ... > OK but to the point. Is there a tried and easy method to make a IDE-CF > image based on the disk version I'm now using? > > -Marko > At the very fist time I worked as follow - - copy all floppy on a folder on my PC (Linux) - - copy initrd.lrp from this folder on /tmp/initrd.gz - - gunzip /tmp/initrd.gz - - mount -o loop /tmp/initrd /mnt - - cp ide-mod.o >> /mnt/boot/lib/modules - - echo ide-disk >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - echo ide-probe-mod >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules - - umount /mnt - - gzip /tmp/initrd - - copy /tmp/initrd.gz into the original folder then - - insert the cf into an adaptor (ide or PCMCIA) - - perform dmesg to see the device - - with fdisk /dev/device create a partition: - fdisk /dev/device - n (new partition) - p (primary) - 1 (first) - Default (first cylinder) - Default (last cylinder) --- - a (make partition bootable) - 1 (partition) --- - t (change partition type) - 1 (partition) - 6 (FAT 16) --- - w (write and exit) - - make filesystem mkdosfs /dev/device - - install syslinux syslinux -s /dev/device - - avoid syslinux from your directory (the goot was created by syslinus on your CF): rm /the_directory_from_floppy/ldlinux.sys - - Mount cf card mount /dev/device /mnt - - Copy all files - cp /the_directory_from_floppy/* /mnt - sync - umount /mnt - - Extract CF and use on your system HTH Giovanni -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn5194yUxzYWi6QcRAq7KAJ0aQNIIK5SSkavreVRn7IXr8/AMiwCZARzZ lQp3G4LijLFIk+Tcsn+19QE= =Jnac -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
> At the very fist time I worked as follow > - - copy all floppy on a folder on my PC (Linux) > - - copy initrd.lrp from this folder on /tmp/initrd.gz > - - gunzip /tmp/initrd.gz > - - mount -o loop /tmp/initrd /mnt > - - cp ide-mod.o >> /mnt/boot/lib/modules > - - echo ide-disk >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules > - - echo ide-probe-mod >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules > - - umount /mnt > - - gzip /tmp/initrd > - - copy /tmp/initrd.gz into the original folder > mv /cdrfom/initrd_ide_cd.lrp /tmp/initrd.lrp cdrom=BERING iso image > then > > - - insert the cf into an adaptor (ide or PCMCIA) > - - perform dmesg to see the device > - - with fdisk /dev/device create a partition: >- fdisk /dev/device > - n (new partition) > - p (primary) > - 1 (first) > - Default (first cylinder) > - Default (last cylinder) > --- > - a (make partition bootable) > - 1 (partition) > --- > - t (change partition type) > - 1 (partition) > - 6 (FAT 16) > --- > - w (write and exit) > > - - make filesystem mkdosfs /dev/device > - - install syslinux syslinux -s /dev/device > - - avoid syslinux from your directory (the goot was created by syslinus > on your CF): rm /the_directory_from_floppy/ldlinux.sys > - - Mount cf card mount /dev/device /mnt > - - Copy all files >- cp /the_directory_from_floppy/* /mnt >- sync >- umount /mnt > - - Extract CF and use on your system > > HTH > > Giovanni > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFGn5194yUxzYWi6QcRAq7KAJ0aQNIIK5SSkavreVRn7IXr8/AMiwCZARzZ > lQp3G4LijLFIk+Tcsn+19QE= > =Jnac > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > > leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user > Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ > > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
[leaf-user] [Fwd: Re: The old floppy question]
Sorry, I meant cp not move (mv) cp /cdrfom/initrd_ide_cd.lrp /tmp/initrd.lrp cdrom=BERING iso image harry --- Begin Message --- > At the very fist time I worked as follow > - - copy all floppy on a folder on my PC (Linux) > - - copy initrd.lrp from this folder on /tmp/initrd.gz > - - gunzip /tmp/initrd.gz > - - mount -o loop /tmp/initrd /mnt > - - cp ide-mod.o >> /mnt/boot/lib/modules > - - echo ide-disk >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules > - - echo ide-probe-mod >> /mnt/boot/etc/modules > - - umount /mnt > - - gzip /tmp/initrd > - - copy /tmp/initrd.gz into the original folder > mv /cdrfom/initrd_ide_cd.lrp /tmp/initrd.lrp cdrom=BERING iso image > then > > - - insert the cf into an adaptor (ide or PCMCIA) > - - perform dmesg to see the device > - - with fdisk /dev/device create a partition: >- fdisk /dev/device > - n (new partition) > - p (primary) > - 1 (first) > - Default (first cylinder) > - Default (last cylinder) > --- > - a (make partition bootable) > - 1 (partition) > --- > - t (change partition type) > - 1 (partition) > - 6 (FAT 16) > --- > - w (write and exit) > > - - make filesystem mkdosfs /dev/device > - - install syslinux syslinux -s /dev/device > - - avoid syslinux from your directory (the goot was created by syslinus > on your CF): rm /the_directory_from_floppy/ldlinux.sys > - - Mount cf card mount /dev/device /mnt > - - Copy all files >- cp /the_directory_from_floppy/* /mnt >- sync >- umount /mnt > - - Extract CF and use on your system > > HTH > > Giovanni > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFGn5194yUxzYWi6QcRAq7KAJ0aQNIIK5SSkavreVRn7IXr8/AMiwCZARzZ > lQp3G4LijLFIk+Tcsn+19QE= > =Jnac > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > - > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft > Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ > > leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user > Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ > > - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/ --- End Message --- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Hi All, Here is my opinion on the floppy question. I have been using LEAF for firewalls ever since LRP 2.9.x. Over the years I have tried just about every way of booting the system, floppies, ZIP, LS120, HD, CD + floppy for config and CF. In all cases when a floppy or floppy like device (ZIP or LS120) was used I have had failures. The HD based systems have had much better reliability. I have just started using CF based systems so I don't have any history on reliability yet but I expect that this will be more reliable. If you want reliability then floppies are not the way to go. Use a modern air bearing HD or use CF. Floppies are also fading away. I have not bought a machine for work in the last 3 years that has a floppy installed Why do I use LEAF at all? You can buy a decent ready to go out of the box firewall that supports wireless, VPNs, web based config and runs an embedded Linux distro from Linksys for less that $50 now so what advantage does LEAF offer? I still use LEAF for firewalls because of the more complex things that I can do with it. Most of my configs will not even fit onto a floppy. LEAF and the future. I certainly have no objection to small or floppy based systems for those that want to use them unless doing so holds back the development of LEAF. It seems to me (from a non developers point of view) that a lot of effort is being expended trying to shoe horn the current system into a bootable system smaller than 1.6 MB. Splitting the distro into 2 streams has been mentioned. This could be a good solution if the resources are available to do it. Personally I would rather spend a little money on adding CF or USB boot capacity to a system. LEAF is a great distro. The recent changes to Bering uClibc especially the new backup procedures are a huge step forward. I would hate to see LEAF fall behind due to a decision to support obsolete hardware. So that's my opinion. Not a complaint, just another data point. I really appreciate all of the work that the LEAF team has put in. Dave - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
Hello, I would like to add my own straw to the camel's back. I last used a floppy (DSL, not LEAF, I think) about four years ago as an emergency boot. (My CF was scrambled, and the backup had found its way into a childs camera...). My current LEAF box would not fit into a floppy - it is 3.1MB. However, I do remember spending a rather nice afternoon paring down the setup so it *would* fit. I found that: 1. The rigor of the floppy-limit made me think about what I wanted from the box, what I wanted to do, and how I could do it. 2. The embedded-ish box I was working towards responded well to a smaller installation - it leaves more space for logging/debugging/tracing. Is it true that 'smaller' still has some practical value on very tiny devices? 3. Smaller boots faster. (mostly) (sometimes?) Or am I kidding myself? Of these, I like the first the best - the size limit is an essentially arbitrary restriction that focuses me on getting what I want cleanly and well. If we were doing poetry, LEAF is a Haiku, not a Scandinavian epic. Sam - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
>This may be prudent, but it may not be reality. If you were worried >about resiliency, would you be using old or repurposed hardware to >begin with? Because some people (owners, bosses, comptrollers, et al) pinch pennies. Cost reduction is the business mantra these days. There's always some old box around that's been amortized down to nothing that can do the job. If you can do the job without spending money, vs. spending money to do the same job, guess which they choose? >I agree that CF's or USB sticks are a better choice, If they are for you, feel free. Why impose your preferences on everybody else? >but the user base seems to be indicating that the floppy isn't dead yet. Not around here. Besides, NOBODY walks away with a diskette! ;-) Thumbdrives seem to come with feet. Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ http://www.geocities.com/paulgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: "Everything you do communicates." (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
Re: [leaf-user] The old floppy question
>main Hw decides to buy the farm. I have recently also salvaged a 5 1/2" >floppy drive just in case I want to go really medieval on this...and yes >I have the floppies for a lifetime. I could always go to the Pc-superstore We also keep OLD hardware around, just in case. There's never enough budget to recopy all our old backups to new media, and our legal department wouldn't even allow it. We try hard to preserve our ability to read any media we've ever used, even if we're not sure, but think maybe someone might have, somewhere. When NASA was planning its missions to Jupiter, it figured out it had some useful data from old Voyager missions. They found the tapes, nicely cataloged. But they were 7-track tapes. Over the years ALL their computers had been upgraded and replaced. Call IBM! "Sorry, Sir, we don't have any customers with maintenance contracts on 7-track tape drives. We don't know where you could read those tapes. Have you tried one of the computer museums?" "Then MAKE us one!" "Umm, we'll get back to you, Sir." "Sir, we're sorry, we can find some old 9-track drives, but we don't have any 7-track heads in any inventory. We haven't made any of those since the 50's." Months later. "Umm, Sir? Are you still interested in a 7-track tape drive? One of our people found one that had fallen behind a rack. We might be able to re-engineer one of the last 9-track drive models to use it. Would you like an RPQ? (Request for Price Quotation)" "Sir, we have your RPQ available. That would be $1,000,000. Would you like us to proceed?" Paul Rogers ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/ http://www.geocities.com/paulgrogers/ Rogers' Second Law: "Everything you do communicates." (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-) - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2005. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ leaf-user mailing list: leaf-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-user Support Request -- http://leaf-project.org/
