Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-25 Thread Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason 
On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Assuming for a moment that my contributions to OSM are copyrightable and
> the CC-BY-SA license is valid, then if I license my data CC-BY-SA I have
> the right to request anyone using my data, or building or using derived
> versions thereof, to provide attribution in the form I believe is
> required, and I can drag them to court if they don't.

No you don't. You've just given them permission to use your works
under a license which dictates that distributors must attribute you
within the limited scope demanded of them by the license. As long as
they're otherwise in compliance you have no right to demand additional
attribution not required by the license.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Nick Black 
Regarding White House - I'll persue this from CloudMade's side and ask that
they add a link to CC-by-SA.  Please give them some time though :-)
--
Nick


On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > So, y'know, I look forward to every CloudMade tile incorporating a
> > 5,000-strong list of contributors, which swells to 5,001 the next time
> some
> > retard decides to globally change of shop=groceries to shop= greengrocers
> or
> > whatever it was.
>
> One reason we should really flag "bot" accounts - assuming that
> mass-changing something into something-other does not earn you any
> copyright *even* if original contributions were copyrightable.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> So, y'know, I look forward to every CloudMade tile incorporating a
> 5,000-strong list of contributors, which swells to 5,001 the next time some
> retard decides to globally change of shop=groceries to shop= greengrocers or
> whatever it was.

One reason we should really flag "bot" accounts - assuming that 
mass-changing something into something-other does not earn you any 
copyright *even* if original contributions were copyrightable.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Peter Miller 

On 22 Oct 2009, at 13:44, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Nick Black wrote:
>> Could you point out where CloudMade is not attributing OSM properly  
>> and
>> we'll fix it right away.
>
> The whitehouse.gov/change site does have a mixed OSM/Cloudmade  
> copyright
> notice but lacks the CC-BY-SA declaration that most people believe is
> required.
>
> It was me who added this entry originally, but in the "who" column I
> originally put "US Federal Government", not "Cloudmade". Other people
> have later extended the entry to talk of "Cloudmade clients" or
> something, and I removed my name from the "Added By" column at that
> point because I was, after all, only talking about the  
> whitehouse.gov site.

It is my understanding that the map tiles should be released CC-BY-SA  
until the new ODbL license appears when the tiles can be released  
under virtually any license (including pd and 'all rights reserved').

The current message on the CM site implies that the data is CC-BY-SA  
OpenStreetMap but that the map tiles are (C) CloudMade. I believe that  
currently it should be clear that the map tiles are released as CC-BY- 
SA by CloudMade (who may indeed also hold the (C) of the rendering.

Regards,


Peter




>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Andy Allan 
On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 6:58 PM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> Peter Miller wrote:
>> Sure, so lets get that page showing how things should be onto the wiki
>
> I think we've got that bit already:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F

Argh, but that FAQ is wrong. It's a requirement of the license that
you must provide either a link to the license or the license itself.
Section 4a:

"You may distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly
digitally perform the Work only under the terms of this License, and
You must include a copy of, or the Uniform Resource Identifier for,
this License with every copy or phonorecord of the Work You
distribute, publicly display, publicly perform, or publicly digitally
perform.,"

whereas the FAQ says:

"Where possible, 'OpenStreetMap' should be hyperlinked to
http://www.openstreetmap.org/, and CC-BY-SA to
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ ."

There's no "where possible" regarding the license. As far as I see it,
and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the three requirements are:

 * Attribution to the contributors (appropriate to the medium, etc)
 * Notice that the work is available under the license
 * Either the text of the license OR the URI for the license.

Cheers,
Andy

PS We can discuss including the text of the license/URI in every tile
served at some other point...

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Nick,

Nick Black wrote:
> Could you point out where CloudMade is not attributing OSM properly and 
> we'll fix it right away.

The whitehouse.gov/change site does have a mixed OSM/Cloudmade copyright 
notice but lacks the CC-BY-SA declaration that most people believe is 
required.

It was me who added this entry originally, but in the "who" column I 
originally put "US Federal Government", not "Cloudmade". Other people 
have later extended the entry to talk of "Cloudmade clients" or 
something, and I removed my name from the "Added By" column at that 
point because I was, after all, only talking about the whitehouse.gov site.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Sam Larsen 
Nick,

Personally i think your attribution is fine.  I was even pointing
people to your map attribution methods to use as an case study until i
found them in the list here: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
That's where all the confusion has come in, and personally i don't
think this impractical attribution problem will be solved until ODbL is
introduced (hopefully).  I guess until that time people will have different 
views
on what is 'proper' and what is not.


Sam

>
>From: Nick Black 
>To: Licensing and other legal discussions. 
>Sent: Thursday, 22 October, 2009 13:24:20
>Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution
>
>Hi Sam and list,
>
>
>Could you point out where CloudMade is not attributing OSM properly and we'll 
>fix it right away.  Our maps API puts:
>
>
>"© 2009 CloudMade - Map data CCBYSA 2009 OpenStreetMap.org contributors"
>
>
>Our FAQ says:
>
>
>"If you use our maps via the Web Maps Lite API a copyright and attribution 
>notice will appear in the bottom right hand corner of the window which says "© 
>2009 CloudMade - Map data CCBYSA 2009 OpenStreetMap.org contributors - Terms 
>of Use". You must show this attribution whenever you access our map tiles."
>
>
>For mobile use:
>
>
>"You should include the following information somewhere in the application 
>where it can be easily accessed, such as a "Help" or "About" screen or on a 
>splash screen: "© 2009 CloudMade - Map data CCBYSA 2009 OpenStreetMap.org 
>contributors - Terms of Use"."
>
>
>http://cloudmade.com/faq#license
>
>
>Our contacts page does not include attribution on the map, but has it under 
>the maps, as we judged them too small to be attributed:
>
>
>http://cloudmade.com/contact
>
>
>The OSM wiki says that CloudMade are violating because our client sites and 
>our own site says::
>
>
>"Whitehouse site says "Data (c) OpenStreetMap, rendering (c) CloudMade". 
>CloudMade site says both "Map data (c) OpenStreetMap contributors" and 
>separately "Map data CCBYSA OpenStreetMap contributors"."
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
>
>
>But the OSM wiki also says that the correct attribution is:
>
>
>"If you are using OpenStreetMap data only, we request that your credit reads 
>at least "Map data (c) OpenStreetMap (and) contributors, CC-BY-SA"."
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F
>
>
>Depending how precise you want to be, we say "Data" rather than "Map Data".
>
>
>I think the Foundation need to publish some clear guidelines about this.  
>>From the point of view of a company who is trying very hard to get it right 
>and to make it easy for people building on our platform to get it right, I can 
>vouch that attribution issues are confusing.  
>
>
>We want to do the right thing and we're even happy to help define what the 
>right thing is, but there needs to be more clarity.
>
>
>--
>Nick
>n...@cloudmade.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Sam Larsen  wrote:
>
>Hi all,
>>
>>>>I am looking into the proper attribution of OSM in a tiled web mapping 
>>>>scenario.  I know the guidelines on attribution can be found on the wiki - 
>>>>and i have read them.
>>>>There is also the list of non-conforming sites: 
>>>>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
>>>>Does anyone think, we should have a list of 'conforming' sites - as the 
>>>>CloudMade maps and even the main www.openstreetmap.org are listed as not 
>>>>having proper attribution.
>>>>
>>I think it would be useful to have at least one example of conforming 
>>attribution (even though i know the attribution will change in the near 
>>future anyway) for people to use as a case study / reference.  Of course if 
>>people were to be referencing this website, it would have to be absolutely 
>>correct and stay unchanged while it is used as a reference.
>>
>>>>Maybe a site could be mocked-up within the wiki somewhere?
>>
>>>>I haven't contributed to the wiki before - maybe this could be my calling - 
>>>>if anyone thinks it is needed.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Sam Larsen
>>>>Web GIS Specialist
>>>>York St, Cambridge, UK, CB1 2PY
>>>>M: +44 (0)794 433 7455
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>___
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>>
>
>
>-- 
>-- 
>Nick Black
>twitter.com/nick_b
>


  

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-22 Thread Nick Black 
Hi Sam and list,
Could you point out where CloudMade is not attributing OSM properly and
we'll fix it right away.  Our maps API puts:

"© 2009 CloudMade  - Map data
CCBYSA
 2009 OpenStreetMap.org  contributors"

Our FAQ says:

"If you use our maps via the Web Maps Lite API a copyright and attribution
notice will appear in the bottom right hand corner of the window which says
"© 2009 CloudMade - Map data CCBYSA 2009 OpenStreetMap.org contributors -
Terms of Use". You must show this attribution whenever you access our map
tiles."

For mobile use:

"You should include the following information somewhere in the application
where it can be easily accessed, such as a "Help" or "About" screen or on a
splash screen: "© 2009 CloudMade - Map data CCBYSA 2009 OpenStreetMap.org
contributors - Terms of Use"."

http://cloudmade.com/faq#license

Our contacts page does not include attribution on the map, but has it under
the maps, as we judged them too small to be attributed:

http://cloudmade.com/contact

The OSM wiki says that CloudMade are violating because our client sites and
our own site says::

"Whitehouse site says "Data (c) OpenStreetMap, rendering (c) CloudMade".
CloudMade site says both "Map data (c) OpenStreetMap contributors" and
separately "Map data CCBYSA OpenStreetMap contributors"."
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution

But the OSM wiki also says that the correct attribution is:

"If you are using *OpenStreetMap data only*, we request that your credit
reads at least "Map data (c) OpenStreetMap *(and)* contributors, CC-BY-SA"."
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F

Depending how precise you want to be, we say "Data" rather than "Map Data".

I think the Foundation need to publish some clear guidelines about this.
 From the point of view of a company who is trying very hard to get it right
and to make it easy for people building on our platform to get it right, I
can vouch that attribution issues are confusing.

We want to do the right thing and we're even happy to help define what the
right thing is, but there needs to be more clarity.

--
Nick
n...@cloudmade.com











On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Sam Larsen  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am looking into the proper attribution of OSM in a tiled web mapping
> scenario.  I know the guidelines on attribution can be found on the wiki -
> and i have read them.
> There is also the list of non-conforming sites:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
> Does anyone think, we should have a list of 'conforming' sites - as the
> CloudMade maps and even the main www.openstreetmap.org are listed as not
> having proper attribution.
> I think it would be useful to have at least one example of conforming
> attribution (even though i know the attribution will change in the near
> future anyway) for people to use as a case study / reference.  Of course if
> people were to be referencing this website, it would have to be absolutely
> correct and stay unchanged while it is used as a reference.
>
> Maybe a site could be mocked-up within the wiki somewhere?
>
> I haven't contributed to the wiki before - maybe this could be my calling -
> if anyone thinks it is needed.
>
>
>
> Sam Larsen
> Web GIS Specialist
> York St, Cambridge, UK, CB1 2PY
> M: +44 (0)794 433 7455
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
>



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-- 
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-21 Thread Richard Fairhurst 

Peter Miller wrote:
> Sure, so lets get that page showing how things should be onto the wiki  

I think we've got that bit already:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
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Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-20 Thread Tom Hughes 
On 20/10/09 11:36, Peter Miller wrote:

> On 20 Oct 2009, at 11:03, Sam Larsen wrote:
>
>> I am looking into the proper attribution of OSM in a tiled web
>> mapping scenario.  I know the guidelines on attribution can be found
>> on the wiki - and i have read them.
>> There is also the list of non-conforming sites: 
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
>> Does anyone think, we should have a list of 'conforming' sites - as
>> the CloudMade maps and even the main www.openstreetmap.org are
>> listed as not having proper attribution.
>
> I think we should be kicking arse to get better conformance on this
> rather than accepting that major websites and players within the
> community are not conforming.

I think we should start by asking people nicely before we get all 
medieval on their arses, don't you?

Incidentally I would also point out that much of that page is the work 
of one especially vociferous individual and there is considerable debate 
among other people as to whether all the claims made there are accurate.

I for example added text disputing whether openstreetmap.org was lacking 
attribution and the user in question simply reverted that edit without 
any comment or discussion.

The main issue of debate surrounds exactly what forms of attribution 
are/are not valid.

Tom

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[OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-20 Thread Peter Miller 

On 20 Oct 2009, at 11:03, Sam Larsen wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am looking into the proper attribution of OSM in a tiled web  
> mapping scenario.  I know the guidelines on attribution can be found  
> on the wiki - and i have read them.
> There is also the list of non-conforming sites: 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
> Does anyone think, we should have a list of 'conforming' sites - as  
> the CloudMade maps and even the main www.openstreetmap.org are  
> listed as not having proper attribution.

I think we should be kicking arse to get better conformance on this  
rather than accepting that major websites and players within the  
community are not conforming.

> I think it would be useful to have at least one example of  
> conforming attribution (even though i know the attribution will  
> change in the near future anyway) for people to use as a case  
> study / reference.  Of course if people were to be referencing this  
> website, it would have to be absolutely correct and stay unchanged  
> while it is used as a reference.
>
> Maybe a site could be mocked-up within the wiki somewhere?
>
> I haven't contributed to the wiki before - maybe this could be my  
> calling - if anyone thinks it is needed.

Sounds like a great idea - some simple html that one can cut and paste  
into one's application would be a great idea and may indeed be your  
'calling' :)


Regards,


Peter


>
>
>
> Sam Larsen
> Web GIS Specialist
> York St, Cambridge, UK, CB1 2PY
> M: +44 (0)794 433 7455
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> legal-talk mailing list
> legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
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[OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution

2009-10-20 Thread Sam Larsen 
Hi all,

I am looking into the proper attribution of OSM in a tiled web mapping 
scenario.  I know the guidelines on attribution can be found on the wiki - and 
i have read them.
There is also the list of non-conforming sites: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution
Does anyone think, we should have a list of 'conforming' sites - as the 
CloudMade maps and even the main www.openstreetmap.org are listed as not having 
proper attribution.  
I think it would be useful to have at least one example of conforming 
attribution (even though i know the attribution will change in the near future 
anyway) for people to use as a case study / reference.  Of course if people 
were to be referencing this website, it would have to be absolutely correct and 
stay unchanged while it is used as a reference.

Maybe a site could be mocked-up within the wiki somewhere?

I haven't contributed to the wiki before - maybe this could be my calling - if 
anyone thinks it is needed.


 
Sam Larsen
Web GIS Specialist
York St, Cambridge, UK, CB1 2PY
M: +44 (0)794 433 7455



  

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Proper attribution on mobile map?

2008-04-26 Thread Frederik Ramm 
Hi,

> Under a sensible license, it would be fine to include information about
> the data license as part of the software license displayed by the
> installer.

It's always the same story; the license text says that 

(quote on)

You must keep intact all copyright notices for the Work and give the
Original Author credit reasonable to the medium or means You are
utilizing by conveying the name (or pseudonym if applicable) of the
Original Author if supplied; the title of the Work if supplied; to the
extent reasonably practicable, the Uniform Resource Identifier, if
any, that Licensor specifies to be associated with the Work, unless
such URI does not refer to the copyright notice or licensing
information for the Work; and in the case of a Derivative Work, a
credit identifying the use of the Work in the Derivative Work (e.g.,
"French translation of the Work by Original Author," or "Screenplay
based on original Work by Original Author").

(end quote)

It all depends on what is thought to be 'reasonable to the medium'.
Most of all, it isn't even in the Foundation's powers to define what
is reasonable for a certain medium - the licensor of OSM data is not
the foundation, but you and me and the other mappers, each of whom
might have a different idea.

And with these words I hand over to Richard F who will tell you how
all this is hoped to improve in the future :-)

Bye
Frederik

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