[Libreoffice-ux-advise] (no subject)

[Cor Nouws]

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Ctrl+Enter to trigger the default button in dialogs

[Cor Nouws]

Hi friends,

From dialogs in the past I know that Ctrl+Enter triggers the default
button, often OK.
This is of course extremely convenient, especially in situations where
the 'o' is accelerator for one or more widgets beside the OK button.

I'm absolutely willing to file one or more bugs on this subject. But
before doing so: has there been some design decision, or is there
something else that I should know in this area?

greetings,
Cor


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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] happy new year

[Cor Nouws]

Hi friends,

Wishing you a year full of compassion, which is a great source of peace
and happiness. And much joy with our work on LibreOffice.

Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Fwd: [Bg 100502] The sequence in...

[Cor Nouws]

So that's the problem :)


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 100502] The sequence in the "File
Type" listing can be confusing when picking a filter/ module to use to
import a document
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:29:08 +

[...]
The applications are just too similar.
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Issue on default line spacing

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Input appreciated for
 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94464

thanks,
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Glade error ... Was: Re: [Bug 76937] In Style & Formatting

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Olivier,

Yesterday I installed Glade-gtk2
Added a reference to /extra/source/glade/libreoffice-catalog.xml.in

Still, when I try to open an ui-file, it gives an error.
Must the ui-file be in the same path as the libreoffice-catalog.xml.in ??

thanks,
Cor


bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org wrote (04-04-14 22:30)

> --- Comment #6 from Olivier Hallot  ---
> One of the advantages of having migrated the dialogs into GTK widgets was the
> possibility to use Glade, the tool to build the dialogs of GTK and to position
> widgets in the real-state of the dialog.



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] style with white font color in styles listbox

[Cor Nouws]

Hi David,

David Tardon wrote (12-02-14 15:30)

> Any ideas how to present this in a better way?

Shadow and/or light greyisch ?

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Minutes of ESC call 2014-01-09

[Cor Nouws]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Cor Nouws wrote (16-01-14 18:56)
> Jan Holesovsky wrote (09-01-14 18:41)
>> * Pending Action Items: + need design for copying styles between
>> templates (Cor Nouws/other UX?) cf.
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01658.html
>>
>> 
http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01663.html
> 
> This is one of the two things that I'm hoping to focus on at the 
> Brussels-UX-Hackfest!

So we worked out a solution for:
 - copying styles between templates
 - opening templates not from the repos
 - including Styles in the Side bar

It's close to finished. I hope that Astron/me can finish details soon.

cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Minutes of ESC call 2014-01-09

[Cor Nouws]

Jan Holesovsky wrote (09-01-14 18:41)
> * Pending Action Items:
> + need design for copying styles between templates (Cor Nouws/other UX?)
> cf. 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01658.html
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01663.html

This is one of the two things that I'm hoping to focus on at the
Brussels-UX-Hackfest!

Cheers,

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] minutes of ESC call ...

[Cor Nouws]

Michael Meeks wrote (20-12-13 10:36)
> 
> On Thu, 2013-12-19 at 22:24 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:
>> Michael Meeks wrote (19-12-13 21:24)
>>> * Pending Action Items:
>>> + need design for copying styles between templates (Cor Nouws/other UX?)
>>> cf. 
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01658.html
>>> 
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01663.html
>>
>> Thanks for having that here.
>> It's on my wish list (= portal to a todo list) to have a clear state of
>> wishes etc, in this area.
> 
>   IIRC we had some ux-advise bugzilla bridge here, so presumably we could
> queue all the open tasks and just query the UX component there for open
> tasks ?

Yes that would help.
But for what I've seen, quite a number of issues around this, is not in
a well triaged & clarified state. Some work to be done there first, IMO,
to prevent something is missed. (And cleaning up bugzilla around certain
tasks is a always good of course.)

Cheers,
Cor



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] minutes of ESC call ...

[Cor Nouws]

Michael Meeks wrote (19-12-13 21:24)
> * Pending Action Items:
> + need design for copying styles between templates (Cor Nouws/other UX?)
> cf. 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01658.html
> 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org/msg01663.html

Thanks for having that here.
It's on my wish list (= portal to a todo list) to have a clear state of
wishes etc, in this area.

Cheers,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Use of Navigation Toolbar

[Cor Nouws]

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (10-12-13 09:43)

> I didn't want to say that the Navigator is undocumented and confusing. I
> wanted to say that I first thought the Navigation toolbar has something
> to do with the Navigator. That was confusing to me.

OK, thanks for clarifying :)
Misunderstanding pops up so easy ;)

> Maybe? If I was to decide, I would remove this. But I know there are
> other opinions, so I don't want to take any action here unless there are
> no voices against this.
You may have noticed that in general I'm quite conservative in removing
stuff :)
In this case... I would say wait a little longer and then cut it off.
On the other hand, the option to jump from one hyperlink to another
one,is something that one would expect in the navigation button/panel.
But it's not in there... Strange.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Use of Navigation Toolbar

[Cor Nouws]

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (05-12-13 09:42)

> So what should we do about this one?
> There's no documentation how to use it and I also find the name of the
> toolbar very confusing. It reminds me of the Navigator.

I disagree with the latter ;) - as explained those are used.
But for the Navigation Toolbar: I've never seen any use of it (which
does nos say everything, but still..). Maybe it's a remainder from the
time that StarOffice had some integrated desktop and such??

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel, all,

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (30-11-13 15:17)

finally it's time to decide how to proceed. I created a poll with
(hopefully) all suggestions mentioned in this thread and ask everyone to
share their opinion there: http://doodle.com/pcbb859qgnapxz33

If an option is missing, please let me know.


Before adding my votes, I would like to know more about the option "in 
the Search bar".
Is the idea that, if added there, it would be done with the same 
controls as are at the top of the Navigator already?
Because in my interface I see problems with e.g. the needed vertical 
space for as it is done now at the bottom of the scroll bar.


thanks,

Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote (23-11-13 17:22)


Both bugs (tiny navigation buttons and tiny sheet tabs) have the same
root cause: they’re placed on (and depend on the size of) scrollbars.
That’s why I mentioned those tabs.


Ah, ok that makes sense of course. But still does not make the tabs 
(width) problem supportive for the removal of the other controls.



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Bjoern,

bjoern wrote (23-11-13 15:52)


The patch in question:
- was on gerrit since Sept. so it had to have a decision being make


OK, if there is a technical reason that a decision is needed, fine.
Therefore I thanked you to ask this list.


- on gerrit it had two votes supporting the change (Tor, Alfredo)
- I notified this list for their convenience, and checked back a week later
   with no conclusive vote to be found


One couuld also judge the many questions, doubts and oposite opinions 
in this list as a veto for push at this state? Especialy since you asked 
for a good consensus ;)



As such the change goes it, as letting the original author wait even longer
would be highly discouraging to the author and a bad precedent to contributors.


Of course the work of Samuel is much appreciated. Also, he contributes a 
lot!
But does that mean that there can't be a single patch that is build on a 
wrong assumption?
And as for now that might well turn out to be the case - lets see what 
response comes to the analysis in the other mails this afternoon.



As said, this doesnt bar this list to provide construtive input on how to 
proceed.


It might well do the other thing - it's not only developers that are 
humans that may get discouraged by the way things go.


Maybe there is a way to try prevent both :)


P.S.: Also note, that just because this is now in on master it would be
   impossible to undo for a release. But I would really hate to do that, as
   there is an opportunity to push this forward and let Samuel make this 
better in
   4.3. As said, that would need a quick and conclusive description on 
where to go
   from here.


I'm eager to learn what the real problem is that is solved with the patch.

Kind regards,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Adolfo,

Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote (21-11-13 15:06)

A simple reason to not have any widget over scrollbar area: when they
change size they cause a lot of usability issues. And it’s not only
this navigation set of buttons: remember what happens with the Sheet
tabs in Calc? We get a lot of bug reports regarding that they are too
small, hard to click, unreadable, etc. It's the same with the
navigation buttons. IT’S SIMPLY NOT the place to have any UI elements.


When I read this, I get confused because I read two different subjects.
You refer to the unreadable sheet tabs in Calc, that are caused by them 
being displayed way to small (the whole deviding of the stuff in the 
width of the window has shortcomings, as I see it.)
When the navigation buttons are not displayed well, I think that is a 
different subject. Or do I miss something?


Thanks,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel, *,

Since there is a wide variety of ideas how to act, I decided to look at 
the roots of this dicsussion. And IMO - but pls correct me if I'm wrong 
- that is in these issues:


Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (15-11-13 09:30)


The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].
 [...]
[1] https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40429 and
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58748 for example


Now in Bug 40429 I read:
- Description:   " in the middle of the two "double arrows". Should be a 
little circle, but it doesn't fit. "
- Comment 2: " the issue is Ubuntu (Unity Desktop) has very thin scroll 
bars.


OK, so there should be a circle but it is something different. ?
However it works fine, doesn't it. And it does not jump in the eye as an 
ugly distortion, anyway not to me.



With Bug 58748 / 36772 etc etc it is about the sheet tabs not being 
displayed correctly. I agree that that is a problem, and not a tiny one.
But I miss how that should that be improved by removing the navigation 
controls.


So after reading this in detail, I'm not sure if there is a real problem 
that can be solved by removing controls (that by the way just work and 
are being used).


Is there some other real problem that needs to be addressed by the 
patch? Is there something that I oversee?


Thanks,

Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Bjoern,

bjoern wrote (22-11-13 16:22)


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 01:02:03PM +0100, bjoern wrote:



Could you guys form a good consensus on if that should be done in the first



The solution does not have to be perfect, but it needs to be consistly
communicated as a consensus to the developers and have a limited scope. If its
not, someone will have to make an best-intend judgement call like I did with
this change for 4.2. Such things should not be needed -- e.g. this particular
change was lingering on gerrit since September without anyone arguing vicously
on it either way.


Thanks that you poked this list to get response.

It's obvious that the state of the discussion is far from reaching "good 
concensus" (what is what you asked for) and I do not understand why the 
control is removed (patch pushed) now, while it's unclear wheter there 
will be a better solution then the maybe in some cirucumstances "not 
perfect" present solution.


This really confuses me.


Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (15-11-13 09:30)


I created that patch, so let me also share my opinion.

The scrollbar is something which height/width depends on the OS and
visual theme used. So there are issues where the scrollbar is too small
and the widgets are displayed wrongly [1].


Yes, but since the function of the buttons is in the same line as 
clicking on the scroll bar ... IMO it's a natural place at that position.


The case where the scroll bar becomes to small because of the button 
must be very rare?




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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote (14-11-13 21:08)


Why to keep this navigation feature there ? In the scrollbar, you always
have it at hand. Many users do not have the Navigator always open.


Yes, why remove it? Because someone does not know what it is for and 
does not know that others use it? I see no other good reason for it.


I've seen people years and years back already using it. So why should I 
assume they have stopped using it :) ?


Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] File menu thoughts ...

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Michael,

Quick queries, dangerous future ... :)
When would you love to have my thoughts? After looking to your question, 
reading the two replies and thinking of what I've seen in recent 
improvements/changes here and some I remember from MsO2010, I realise 
that I need more time ...


Ciao,
Cor

Michael Meeks wrote (09-10-13 17:57)


Just a quick query; I rather like the idea of turning the 'File' menu


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Impress side pane & layout selection

[Cor Nouws]

hi Thorsten,

Thorsten Behrens wrote (08-10-13 00:04)


was playing with master & Impress today, just *lovely* how the sidebar
turned out there, kudos to all involved!


:)


Was wondering though, the 'Layout selection' menu is only visible if
no object is selected - if you select one, it gets replaced by other
stuff in the 'Properties' pane.


Well found ;)


Thoughts on how to better present that
appreciated, it appears hard to discover for users?


Didn't hear any complaints yet and for me it was not too hard to track...
But what about adding Lay-outs as separate sub-panel (with a +) at the top?


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)

[Cor Nouws]

Pedro wrote (19-09-13 12:02)


To be honest the Microsoft approach is much more efficient: when you press
the Bold button, the Style is automatically changed to Normal+Bold which
allows you to modify the Style for all Bold word at a later stage...


Distadvantage IMO it that it makes the concept, understanding, of styles 
look cludgy...



Maybe LO should make the buttons have the same effect? From a user
perspective it is applying a direct formatting but in the background it is
creating and applying Styles...





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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Pedro,

Pedro wrote (18-09-13 18:45)


Hmm. would you mind to explain why that is the case, in your opinion?


Because the direct format button are "in your face" and changing a style
requires clicking 1) left click the Style name (assuming the Style bar is
showing and that the user knows how to get to it); 2) Click Modify; 3)
search for the format option in one out of 12 (!!!)  tabs; 4) Click OK

Example for changing a full paragraph to Bold in direct format: 1) if you
are a keyboard addict as myself just navigate to the beginning of the
Paragraph and press Ctrl+Shift+Down and Ctrl+B. Done! 2) if you are a mouse
user just click at the beginning of the paragraph, drag to the end and
single click on the big B icon. Done!

To do the same with Styles you need to select the Paragraph and at least 5
mouse clicks (assuming you know where Styles are) ;)


Counting alone makes one tired ;)

It's one of the ideas I just discussed with Mirek, about mayeb future 
improvemens in the panel and styles: easier changeing.


Cheers,
Cor


BTW I just added an Enhancement Request so that Sidebar is set per
Module/Program
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69534


Good, I've been there!



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)

[Cor Nouws]

Hi David,

dollyp wrote (18-09-13 18:38)

Cor Nouws wrote



I'm being very subjective here. I considered I was a master of using styles
in MSO Word but I found it confusing moving to LO Writer. I acknowledge that
as a concept styles should be used for everything and so it's perhaps not
surprising that absolutely everything has to have a named style. However the
list of styles is just too large for normal use - four screens worth if
showing all styles.
Styles are divided into sections - paragraph, character, etc. - but for


It 's huge indeed.


example there are far more numbering and list styles in the paragraph
section than in the list styles section: that doesn't make sense. I know
many of these are both paragraph AND list styles, but why does "List 1
start" appear as a paragraph style but not as a list style. When I came to
my first LO document with numbers I couldn't get styles to work as I
expected them to do and still can't (I'll amplify if you wish); the answer


Indeed that is confusing, but senseful too. If you want to combine 
properties of a list style in paragraphs with different properties, 
that's why.
Tipically when I apply a list, I prefer to have distance of the 
paragraphs with that list to be less then the distance from the list to 
the parr above/below ..



was to reach for the numbering button on the toolbar - big mistake.


Hard lessons ;)


I think that it is too simplistic to just think that styles are the answer
to everything. Most users aren't purists and in practical terms for simple


Now you break my dreams ;)


short documents we won't get people to stop using direct formatting. The
dilemma is to make styles more useable without alienating those for whom
styles are essential. We are all converts here; those who move from MSO2003
and earlier will probably do just fine with LO's treatment of styles, but we
must also remember those whose only experience of styles is with MSO2007 and
later, where the emphasis appears more on direct formatting.


I think I agree that it's not ideal. So thanks for the ideas, and let's 
try to work further on drafting what could be improved.


Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Jean-Fraincois, *

[ picking up this thread, now/as far as time allows ]

Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote (19-09-13 07:14)


Le 18/09/2013 17:16, Cor Nouws a écrit :


It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for
direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a
useful way.


\o/ Yeah! I love you! Go for it! We *need* that!

Styles are the very feature that distinguishes LibO. It should be highly
publicised.


My idea :)


BTW, enhancements to styles are possible:

-- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles
This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't
be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to
apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well.


Can you pls explain what misses?


-- Table styles
A long-time missing feature


GSOC
 (I see the coder sitting rght in front of me at the Hackaton in Milan ;) )


-- Simplify the list styles
(though I do like them)

and probably others...


TBC..
Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Patch review for change of shortcut

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Markus,

Markus Mohrhard wrote (20-09-13 05:11)


https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5985/1


Thanks for asking. I say yes!

(It's for https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67159
Danny didn't mention the bug number in the commit message.)

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Mirek,

Mirek M. wrote (18-09-13 22:03)


OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some
formatting toolbar?

I'm not sure if I said it in this post, but I look at the Properties
panel as the replacement for modal dialogs -- like the Inspector in Mac
applications. Thus I imagine it not acting as a replacement to the
toolbar, but as a supplement.


I understand that. But the controls on the formatting toolbar act as 
such too.



When you're writing, you want your workspace to be clean, uncluttered,
so that you can focus on the task at hand. The toolbar serves you quick
formatting options, but generally stays out of the way (at least when
you remove or streamline and move the Standard toolbar). When you happen
to need an advanced formatting option that you rarely use, that's when
you show the Properties panel. It shouldn't be on full-time (unless you
refuse to use styles and constantly have breaks for using advanced
formatting options while creating content; that's not a use case we
should encourage, though).
Since the user won't be using the panel full-time and since the


Won't many people have the side bar visible all the time, just as the 
tool bar?



Show/Hide button for the panel should be part of the contextual toolbar
itself, it would be good to keep the toolbar visible even when the
Properties panel is shown to not disorient the user.


That is what I mean with my objection: it serves direct formatting :(


Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important
in my view then the items I brought forward .. ;)


They're very important to me -- I can't stand the odd duplication we
have going on, with two Navigators, two Galleries, and two Style panes.


I agree that it is important to solve that.
But most important is proper use of documents and formatting. Thus I 
would first focus on improving the use of styles via the side bar.



If you're using the Sidebar, you have to launch a separate Navigator in
case you need to use two panels at once.
And that might be hard to discover how to do, since it's not clear what
View -> Navigator or the Navigator icon in the toolbar will do.


That is nothing different from now :)
And when we talk about our new users: let's pls offer them great style 
handling :)



As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns
like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no
reason to
fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already
have the
Styles panel for that.


By the way: the styles panel is outdated, ugly, hides information and 
actions...
No problem for me. But how much better could it be if the possibilities 
in the side bar were used to make that modern etc.

(Just see the post of Olivier on ux-list - great idea to work out.)


It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for
direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a
useful way.


Despite favoring styles, I wouldn't dismiss the usefulness of
hard-formatted bold/italic/underlines -- they're much simpler to apply
than styles and they're as easy to replace (using Find and Replace).


We can't hide the key B and I for the users, alas ;)


I would love for the font picker and font size picker to be
deemphasized, though, given that these two should almost exclusively be
applied through paragraph styles.


Should yes. The same for indent, alignment, ... all direct formatting 
controls on the tool bar and in the side bar.



GMail had fonts under an icon-only drop-down before its redesign. [1]
Many mobile word processors do the same [2][3] (although Drive [4] has
the text label "Fonts" instead of an icon).
I would love for the font picker to use an icon-only drop-down as well.
That would not only deemphasize the font picker, it would also emphasize
the style picker, which would now be the widest element in the toolbar.


Like that idea as a good step.


I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand,
applying a style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other
style when it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too.


Of course. That's what the Styles panel is for. (That said, that panel
should really use single-click for applying styles -- double-click is
unnecessarily strenuous.)


You cannot change that click behaviour without other changes. (And read 
what I wrote above about that panel...)




PS See you in Milan?


Yes, I hope so. :)


:) - good to continue part of the conversation while looking at the screen!

thanks & best,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (06-09-13 14:44)


+ 1 to have the navigator in a sidebar cleary showing the "hidden"
elements (like graphics with sizes and formats) pressent in a document


I think I can't disagree with this idea for improving the Navigator!

Regards,
Cor

The discussion on the UX list on the side bar is to be found here

http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-September/002323.html

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Mirek,

Mirek M. wrote (09-09-13 14:46)


I share your sentiments about the sidebar. It should definitely be
hidden by default, as it adds minimal value in return for a bunch of
wasted space and a less focused, messier interface. The exception to
this would be Impress, because it already relies on the task pane for
key functionality and the sidebar is the replacement.


OK. And maybe, when visible in the other modules, remove some formatting 
toolbar?



My vision for the sidebar is a bit different, though.
First and foremost, I'm hoping that the sidebar will be made modular,
allowing the user to undock each individual panel (represented by a tab)
from the sidebar. Keep just a single panel docked, the tab bar would
disappear. That would mean that we'd get rid of the awful panel
duplication we have with the Sidebar now -- there would a single
Navigator, a single Gallery, and a single Style pane, and all of these
could be docked/undocked at any side of the window and grouped into tabs
as one wished. This is all standard panel behavior, btw -- if you want
to try it, just take a look at Gimp or Inkscape. (And I believe the
Adobe counterparts work similarly.)


Those ideas for panel behaviour look sound to me. But less important in 
my view then the items I brought forward .. ;)



As for the Properties panel, I'm hoping it will gain Style dropdowns
like those in the toolbar (Kendy's working on this). I see no reason to
fill the Properties panel with styles, though, as we already have the
Styles panel for that.


It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for 
direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a 
useful way.



Furthermore, it's the Properties panel, so I would expect it to hold any
and all of the object properties. That's the role dialogs play right
now, and I'm hoping that, over time, the Properties panel will gain all
of their functionality and replace them one by one. The advantage to
that would be fast and easy access to this functionality, and the
ability to see the changes happen live in the document.


I like the idea of seeing a life preview. On the other hand, applying a 
style and hitting Ctrl-z or the undo button, or the other style when 
it's not what is wanted, isn't a big deal too.



The concept is
basically the same as that of the Inspector window, which has long been
used on Mac OS and is a key part of iWork.


Cheers,
Cor

PS See you in Milan?

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Libreoffice-qa] minutes of ESC call ...

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Pedro!

Pedro wrote (06-09-13 10:58)


I disagree with both your points :)


 :\ ;)


Eating space: actually a side bar (optional) makes better use of screen
space on new screens which are widescreen. So the idea is to disable the
format toolbar (which becomes redundant) and use the horizontal space. Of
course for "old" 4:3 ratio screens it is better to use the top toolbars but
as long as it is *optional* each user can choose what is more convenient.


Yes, right nuancing of my initial writing (see the discussion on the UX 
list: 
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-ux-advise/2013-September/002323.html 
)



Not promoting syles: actually styles are much more accessible. Instead of
having a floating bar with styles


  (The window Styles and formatting can be docked easily too.)


  you just have the second button (from top)
on the right of the sidebar to switch to the style list... So in fact I
think it's a step forward in promoting styles :)


Hmm. Since it shows some more details of direct formatting, and in a 
more attractive way then in the tool bar, I am afraid that the possibly 
better visibility of styles alone is not enough.
But I agree that there is a real opportunity for improving, thanks to 
the side bar!


Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Jean-Baptiste,

Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote (10-09-13 07:54)


I do not agree with that except in the case of Calc. In Writer I work
always with the Navigator and/or the Stylist open. With the Sidebar, I
can close the Formatting toolbar and gain vertical space.


Yes, that is the idea.


I think the sidebar lacks the ability to embed whatever toolbar. For
example, in Writer, "Bullets and Numbering", "Table" or "Insert" toolbars.


Looks in line with the pane wishes Mirek write about :)


Another nice feature of the Sidebar could be to partially close it,
keeping visible only its small vertical button bar. So you could be able
to reopen the panel you need with one click. Currently, you need to
reopen the Sidebar then click the panel button.


[Thanks to Regina for answering this ;) ]


Ciao!
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)

[Cor Nouws]

Hi David,

dollyp wrote (06-09-13 23:11)






Direct formatting is
less effective than using styles but LO's styles are if anything more
confusing to the average user than MSO's.


Hmm. would you mind to explain why that is the case, in your opinion?

thanks,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi David,

dollyp wrote (06-09-13 23:11)


I don't agree with your comments about the sidebar eating space. Using
Writer on a widescreen notebook I prefer the option to have things down the
side of the screen so that the maximum vertical space is available, but with
Sheet a wider display is preferable.


I can agree with that.
My comment was based that we have now space taken above and at the side, 
both for the same (direct formatting).



So the first problem with sidebars as
currently implemented is that sidebar setting is universal, i.e. you can't
have a sidebar with Writer but not with Sheet (don't do enough with Impress
to know what would be best).


I thought Regina explained that you can minimize it per module with the 
cross.



I do agree with you that the sidebar could promote bad habits, but then
since the buttons on it are the same as the formatting toolbar moving to a
sidebar is really no more likely to lead to bad habits. Direct formatting is
less effective than using styles but LO's styles are if anything more
confusing to the average user than MSO's. I do like your screen shot of a
styles sidebar layout; even better would be if the styles appeared as
samples.


Yes, that is just a simple idea for improving.


I'm so pleased that LO is beginning to improve the UX. Less and less people
are learning with MSO2003 so there will be fewer MS-educated users prepared
to move to LO's seemingly outdated UX, and before anyone complains at that I
am one of those who have moved to LO to avoid the move to the MS ribbon. My
daughter, still at school, thinks LO is awful compared to what she has
learned to use. This first sidebar effort has its rough edges but I see it
as only the first step, and am very happy and grateful to our developers for
it.


Me too.
Thanks for your ideas,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Miguel,

mariosv wrote (04-09-13 23:09)


If until now it is not easy convince people about the great advantage of
using styles,


It's very easy when you have them in a class room ;)


 and if nothing is done about make more visible the styles in
the Sidebar over direct format, as e.g. show and edit the styles in it, in
the same way as direct formatting, showing the direct format as an Direct
format style, I think one of the most important features shall come less
used and known.


Yes. So lets see what can be improved there :)

Cheers,
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

I took the freedom to post a blog about the subject.

http://cor4office.blogspot.nl/2013/09/sidebar-avoiding-it-or-improve-it-for.html

Of course I skipped some details about the Sidebar that IMHO are not so 
relevant for my point.



Two quotes:

  " So for me, two reasons to dislike the Sidebar: for eating space and 
for promoting bad habits :(  "


  " it's clear that I would rather see support for the use of styles. 
So I mocked up a little version with various style categories shown at 
the same time. "


Would appreciate your ideas :)

thanks & ciao,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Proposed White Board Status - "UX"

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Joel, *,

Joel Madero wrote (02-06-13 04:58)


I'd like to propose a new whiteboard status that the UX team can monitor
- this being "UX"

Unless there are protests I will add this to the wiki next week and
start using it. What it will mean:



Sounds as a good Tag for UX issues.
Are there experiences from other teams with such tags?
E.g. do they find them easy to remember, how/when do they make use of 
the tags...


Thanks,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:36)


Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (13-05-13 09:50)



On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 10:47 +0200, Mirek M. wrote:

I'm not the best person to design for the dialog.


Still I find this design from you :)

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Copying_Styles_from_Templates



- I've added a description of the situation pre 4.0
Which is useful to consider proposals for the needed new situation

Also I added some ideas for
- the design by Mirek
- the places where this dialog may be used,


Is it then OK when I create a little changed mockup?



 59427 -  [Template Manager] low discoverability of new
 template manager
   - we could use "File → Organize templates" menu

>>

 I agree


Still on the todo-list, sadly didn't manage to come to it.


What are your ideas?
I find this a nasty problem to solve.
One could think of:
   File > Template > Save (exists in 4.0 in different wording)
   File > Template > Edit/Manage

but then the latter would simply open the new File from template dialog?


I've still not found any better idea.
If this is OK for all, I can try to help getting this in the code too.
OK?


Best regards,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05)

I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a
msg after, so you can test it.


Hi Rafael,

Just to make sure that I didn't miss anything: did you already have a 
change to push the work?


Kind regards,
Cor



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Hi ...

Would be really lovely to get some more feed back on the mail from last 
week!


Cor

Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:36)

Hi all,

Thanks for the ideas / proposals. Here few additions from me:

\

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Better colors for LibreOffice

[Cor Nouws]

Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote (25-05-13 23:44)

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Cor Nouws  wrote:

Does the subject 'better colors' belong to the UX list .. ? :)


Oh yes. Thanks for pointing that useful article out. It really moves
LibreOffice out of the 90s :-)


Now I did have a look at the Colors-section in 4.1.0beta, it's obvious 
that a great improvement already has been implemented :)


Ciao,

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Better colors for LibreOffice

[Cor Nouws]

Another nice post I recently saw:


http://www.openlogic.com/wazi/bid/289690/A-more-colorful-LibreOffice-unveiled

Does the subject 'better colors' belong to the UX list .. ? :)

Cheers,

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] study for tool bar labels

[Cor Nouws]

Hi,

Not sure if on this list the next has been seen:
  http://user-prompt.com/tip-the-tool-how-to-label-toolbar-functions/

A nice study by Heiko from User Prompt, of whom I remember Björn from 
our conferences :)


What do the people here think? Could be well possible to use to improve 
out tool tips, I guess.


Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Michel Renon wrote (20-05-13 16:25)


Well, that was already proposed 2 times in this thread !
;-)


Great that your memory is better then mine :-)
Thanks for summarising...


It seems to me that a simple dialog before opening template/creating new
file is technically much simpler and more obvious for users.


... but seen the latest work by Rafael, I think we can park the 
discussion (at least for the moment).


Ciao,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Rafael Dominguez wrote (20-05-13 04:05)

I did the rest of them already, ill push it tomorrow and ill send you a
msg after, so you can test it.


Wow :)  thanks a lot!


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Joren wrote (20-05-13 02:00)


Willing to help: SURE! Able to help ... mmh, I don't know :-). At least
I can test on Mac if new patches comes out (or if you have a draft patch
I can verify/test it on mac. I'm not sure I can develop something for
mac (without bugging other devs to help me out :) ).

So please tell me where I can be of any help in this project/task.


It's about _adding_ a checkbox to the File > Open dialog.
But Rafael knows more about it.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (20-05-13 01:39)


only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4
and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont
have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one.


Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and
then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint  ;)


Another idea - by far the simplest, but less elegant -
When a user opens a template, give a popup  ( :D )

  You choose a template
  Do you want a new file from that
  template or edit the template ?
  [[ New document ]]  [  Edit template  ]

New document = default

Ideas?

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Rafael,

Rafael Dominguez wrote (11-05-13 00:28)

Well i dont have that much free time to spend on libreoffice sadly, just


We find that sad too ;)


a few hours here and there so my progress on fixing and improving the
template manager is kinda slow.  About the dialog so far theres no
design or talk about copying and handling styles. Any ideas for the
style functionality??


See the other mails.


Im currently working on bug 61396 (Editing a template outside of the
repository),


Ah, only now (after the other mail) see this.
I think (see the other mail) that it would indeed be needed to have that 
one. So useful work :)



only managed to add the checkbox option to the gtk+, kde4
and native dialogs, still pending the windows one and mac, but i dont
have access to a mac, so its hard to work on that one.


Joren - also in cc here - does have and does some useful patches now and 
then. No idea if he would be able and willing... just posting the hint  ;)


Thanks a lot for your work!

Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Thanks for the ideas / proposals. Here few additions from me:

Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (13-05-13 09:50)

Hi Mirek, Michel,

On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 10:47 +0200, Mirek M. wrote:


 60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files
 and templates


[...]
Given that I wasn't in favor of the
shift in focus to organizing templates rather than creating new
documents from templates,


For me that also was a rather unexpected move in the process: I did not 
understand before that also the menu File > Template and the sub menus 
with the various functions were to be removed. But that's history.



I'm not the best person to design for the dialog.


Still I find this design from you :)

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Copying_Styles_from_Templates

thanks!

- I've added a description of the situation pre 4.0
Which is useful to consider proposals for the needed new situation

Also I added some ideas for
- the design by Mirek
- the places where this dialog may be used,



 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to
 edit a template that
 is not in the repository, is lacking



 I saw a comment with the proposal :
 "when a user does "Open" from the "File" menu and selects a
 template, then LO should open the template" ; instead of
 creating a new file from the template".
 It seems to be a coherent behavior : the user selects the
 command "open" so LO must open. When the user selects "new
 from template", then LO must create a new file from a
 template.


Sounds good.


If everyone agrees on that, then it should be pretty quick to fix.


Could work, but would _introduce_ the opposite problem, that a user 
cannot start a new file from a template that is not in the template 
repository...


Currently, I do not see a way out without adding a (visual) option to 
the file open dialog.. (as discussed in another thread).


Alternatively, I did thought of making the Edit button in the new dialog 
having a submenu, where you can choose "Edit other template" or something.
Little problem there: the Edit button is only active when a template is 
selected..

But maybe there is a solution?


 If you really want to prevent modification of bad file, maybe
 add an dialog asking confirmation : "Do you really want to
 open the template 'test.ott' ? or create a new file from this
 template ?"


Perhaps an infobar might be better?


Yes, InfoBar is the thing to use here.


That would indeed be needed to prevent unwanted editing of a file. Do 
not forget that a. many people do not get/notice the difference between 
.ott and .odt and b. file managers depending on settings hide extensions 
(but honestly I did not check how it looks on WIndows with that option 
checked for the Explorer.)


But I wrote _would_ be needed. As written further above: I don think 
alas that it is a solution.



 59427 -  [Template Manager] low discoverability of new
 template manager
   - we could use "File → Organize templates" menu

>>

 I agree


Still on the todo-list, sadly didn't manage to come to it.


What are your ideas?
I find this a nasty problem to solve.
One could think of:
  File > Template > Save (exists in 4.0 in different wording)
  File > Template > Edit/Magage

but then the latter would simply open the new File from template dialog?

Cheers,
Cor



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Impress : general feed back

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Michel,

Michel RENON wrote (09-05-13 16:11)


While working on entrance animations, I also ran an simple test of
Impress and found bizarre behaviors :
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Michelr#Impress_4.0_:_urgent_bugs_and_enhancements


Thanks for gathering those and writing down.
I do recognise this partly. But obviously since I know how to make 
proper use of Impress, I can avoid a lot of the pitfalls.
But that's not your point: it's for people that just need good guidance 
by a clear UI behaviour.



What do you think of my "Proposal for urgent bugs" ?


in slide view :

remove focus in "Recently used" and "Available for use"

No, I would not like to remove the use.

rename "Available for use" to "Available Templates"

OK

change default click of "Available Templates" from "apply to all 
slides" to "apply to selected slides"


OK. (There is the context menu too)

remove "Recently used" ? (ToBeConfirmed)

Why would you remove that choice?


in master view :

disable all task panels, or simply hide the "Tasks" panel,

OK

adapt tabs :
rename tab "Normal" to "Slide Master", rename tab "Notes" to 
"Notes Master"



OK

disable or hide all other tabs ("Outline", "Handouts", "Slide 
sorter")


OK

in slide pane, change title "Slides" to "Master pages"

OK



Can it be implemented easily ?


I've no real idea. But I think that things as disabling some tabs while 
in Master page view, and make naming more consistent, look relatively easy.


Being easy is one point... another is people willing to implement it.
And the better issues are sorted out, especially more important ones, 
the more likely it is that a developer will step in.
IIRC several improvements in Impress have been implemented like that 
already.

Would be good to attract those hackers too for feed back at a certain stage.
Would it be helpful (to get more people involved maybe) to have some 
graphics/screen shots?


What I like about your ideas it that you take a whole bunch related 
topics. Did you have a look at BugZilla for like/related issues?


Related - what I found out:
- changing size/position of the main text frame on a slide in master 
view, sets those very properties when using that master page for a slide 
and choosing a lay out;
- setting the position of bullets / numbering in a master page can't be 
done via the Styles, but has to be done via the menu Format > Bullets 
and numbering.
  (Note to Thorsten: I was fighting recently with some settings that 
were lost randomly. Cannot reproduce. May be due to the fact that that 
was in an old presentation file, prolly once imported from Impress too. 
So who knows what cruft may be hidden in de settings.)



Cheers,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] How to provide usability-related suggestions

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Narayan,

Narayan Aras wrote (16-05-13 14:09)


I have raised several issues that affect the usability of LibreOffice.
Later, when I came to know about this mailing list, and forwarded a
partial list (to begin with).

However, I haven't received any response to my earlier mail (attached).


Have you seen this reply:

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-How-to-provide-usability-related-suggestions-td4033611.html#a4033883 
 ?


When discussing each point, it's good to keep in mind that there is no 
guarantee that developers can pick up suggestions (soon).
But that must not withhold anyone of taking closer looks at areas where 
improvements are possible. Especially when it's tried to combine various 
related, also maybe even more pressing issues. There may be some related 
issues in BugZilla, for example.



Kind regards,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Change default shortcut of Redo action

[Cor Nouws]

Mirek M. wrote (10-05-13 23:16)

On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:05 PM, JorenDC 

I guess so ;-)


We don't want to alienate people who are now using Ctrl+Y.


Ctrl+Z for Undo and Ctrl+Shift+Z for Redo sounds logic to me.
But having both, I would not object.

Note that Ctrl+Shift+Y is Edit > Repeat.


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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Worked myself through the list with template related issues and - apart 
from all great progress - found a few that are still open. And with 4.1 
approaching rapidly...


60589 - [Template manager]: Can not copy styles between different files 
and templates


61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that 
is not in the repository, is lacking


and related
59427 -  [Template Manager] low discoverability of new template manager 
- we could use "File → Organize templates" menu


I know there were some mails on issue 61396 already. I've not seen any 
on the others.


Though I'm not able to do a lot, I'm willing to try to contribute with 
thinking about design, use cases, testing and such.


Any ideas, things to share at this moment?

thanks,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Help to make it possible to add custom animation to Master Slides.

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Janit,

Janit Anjaria wrote (15-04-13 21:01)


I have been looking into this bug/feature( and others too ;) ) since
quite a time and have figured out ways to overcome and solve this bug
which LO has.

-->Yes, i am talking about bug#41572 :

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41572


thanks for looking at this.


[...]
But there have been certain places where i think i am not yet cent
percent clear and would like to get some guidance from your end.

--> Line#2995 :


Looking at your questions: it's not lilkely that you will get an answer 
on the UX list. I hope the developer list will help you out.


Best regards & succes with the work,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advise needed: alignment as part of "clear direct formatting" function

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Lior and Navin,

Lior Kaplan wrote (04-04-13 14:09)


Following the work of Navin (CCed) on fdo#40496 we found out that we
need to define the behavior of the "clear direct formatting" function
regarding alignment.

At the moment "clear direct formatting" also clears the text alignment
back to the default which is left alignment. This is great for LTR text,
but looks weird for RTL text. The proposed solution would be to align
the text, upon clearing direct formatting, according to the paragraph
directionality.


That is what I would have expected in the frist place.
So pls do that.



This is a summary of the discussion at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40496#c13 and is presented
here to decide the wanted behavior for the clear direct formatting.

Thanks,


Thanks for asking here - and sorry for not repling before.

Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Any objections against changes required by fdo#63290

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Joren!

JorenDC wrote (09-04-13 17:20)


Any objects by these changes https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/3291/
regarding fdo#63290 (link:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=63290)


See my suggestion in the issue ;-)

Cheers & thanks a lot for your work!



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Writer option : turn 'number recognition' off by default

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (31-03-13 01:07)


Ideas?


Yes, that is has been implemented already many months * ago, but 
apparently is not always visible for me, since I often drag old user 
profiles with me ;-)


Closing this one.
Cor

* 
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=334c34e4ec803c65e43abf20edbc6faf7fa95e76


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Calc option : Expand references when new columns/rows are .. ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Miguel,

mariosv wrote (31-03-13 04:45)


maybe an intermediate solution can be to have an selectable box
warning as in the overwrite pasting data.


Lovely idea :-)


I think it would be very interesting for users, specially new users.

Other way, How can we convince new user about to have a quick read on
the program options?

What I think can be very useful in anyway.


Sure!

thanks,

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  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ~ _ ~ _ ~ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Editing external templates

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Rafael,

Rafael Dominguez wrote (26-03-13 16:45)

Since the removal of the old template manager dialog, lots of user have
complaining that now they cant open external templates for edit. After
talking to Cedric about it we concluded that we have two options:

1.- Add the action to the Template Manager dialog (possibly as a action
of the wheel menu)
2.- Enhance the file pickers to edit templates when selecting a box.

About the first one i really don't like it at all since the whole point
of the template manager is to manage templates inside the libreoffice
profile, so just adding an option to open an external template through
it, just feel wrong and misplaced,


Understand this.


also it takes more effort, open the
template manager, then click on the required menu and then search for
the desired template. Instead the second one feels more natural and
logical, we click on the open file, search the desired file and then
just mark the option to edit the template, what we normally do when
opening a file.


Two other possibilities:
1. Shift + OK opens for editing
2. select type template + OK opens for editing.
Thee do not need an extra checkbox (I guess that is what you mean with 
"just mark the option to edit the template").




My opinion is to go for the second option for the reasons stated above.


Still, the risk is that functionality for templates is a bit spread over 
the application.
It's too late now, but will find some time this week to look at the 
other open issues and see if there is some reason to think 
about/possibility to have bundling of those.


Thanks for your work on this :-)

Cor


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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Writer option : turn 'number recognition' off by default

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Changing the default Number recognition to be turned of makes that 
people are not confronted with numbers that change by them self.

So two ways to look at this:
 a. they do not have to sit with their hands in their hair :-)
 b. do not get confronted with the idea/possibility that Writer tables 
allow some neat numbering/formulas for them.


Ideas?


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Calc option : Expand references when new columns/rows are .. ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi *
mariosv wrote (21-03-13 00:47)


I think you point in the appropriate direction.

As I can remember, the issue in user forums use to be about how to get this
auto-expand. Even more, if was possible to get the row/column formulas from
previous row/col in the inserted row/column.

Also I think in fact the purpose of this insertion usually is to get the
same format as the previous row/col besides extending a data range.

But change a default is always an decision.


yep.
Basically with such a change, you weight two risks:
 - users that get stuck in unnecessary updating formulas
 - users that end up with unnoticed changes in formulas ...

After thinking about this, I tend to choose the safe side

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Calc option : Expand references when new columns/rows are .. ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Eike,

Eike Rathke wrote (20-03-13 14:36)


On Thursday, 2013-03-14 11:25:43 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:


Working with users, I quite often have the impression that it's
wrong that the setting
  Tools > Options > Calc > General >
Expand references when new columns/rows are inserted
is set to OFF by default.

Objections to change that to ON ?


It may have unwanted effects, most users probably are not aware that
every (!) expression that references an adjacent range would have that
range extended and suddenly calculate differently, probably even
silently. Those users who are aware can easily change that option.


Initially I thought about that too. But I expect the situation to be 
rather rare, that someone inserts a row / column, directly adjacent to a 
referenced range, without wanting a range to extend. (Hmmm, maybe that's 
likely for rows rather then columns.. )
OTOH I really often see people having to change formulae when a row is 
inserted, just because of this option, while they are not aware of it...

(Ah well, a good reason to give training of course... ;-) )

Better/more thoughts?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Possible change of Calc option : Expand references when new columns/rows are .. ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Working with users, I quite often have the impression that it's wrong 
that the setting

 Tools > Options > Calc > General >
   Expand references when new columns/rows are inserted
is set to OFF by default.

Objections to change that to ON ?
Or should I ask on e.g. users@ for a broader audience ?

thanks,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Increase MAX_FILTER_ENTRIES in Styles and Formatting dialog

[Cor Nouws]

Stefan Knorr wrote (13-03-13 23:09)


To be honest, to me it looks like we have too many filters there...


Do we know why those were added and who make use of them?
If not, let's keep them.
In my experience there are always people that use the advanced features 
- reasons for what they love LibreOffice :-)



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Bug 61495 - Backspace behavior

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Maciej,

Maciej Rumianowski wrote (01-03-13 15:56)


I've found  a Bug in LibreOffice Writer (61495
) and now I'm trying
to fix this.
[..]


Good idea. For now, I suspect the export code..


goes out of list. I don't know how Office Word react but suspect the same.


Word behaves as Writer does.
I can send yo a test file from MsO2010 later.

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] impress: text color context menu ...

[Cor Nouws]

Michael Meeks wrote (25-02-13 12:06)


[...] I assume we should
not be offering the correction context menu if we have a selection - to
make it possible to right-click change the color eg. of a single
technical word ? :-)


I agree with that.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] impress: text color context menu ...

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Chris,

Chris Lord wrote (25-02-13 16:04)

[...]
- Font colour is now red, bullets remain black.


Yes. Bullets/numbering has its own properties ;-)
You choose Format > Bullets/numbering in the menu, and find out that on 
the tab Customize you can select the color.

(Better is to do that in the slide master... View > Slide master ..)
(Also remarkable that you select the color there, not a character style 
as in Writer. Rfe for character styles in Impress does exist )



There are a few things to address here I think, though perhaps I'm just
being dense/tainted by using other software. I would expect the bullets
to be part of my selection, and to change colour accordingly.


As opponent of hard (direct formatting) I agree you have a point here 
:-)  when one applies direct formatting any way, why not include the 
bullets.



I'd also expect it to be a bit easier to find where to change the
colour. Failing both of those, I'd expect the app to perhaps guide me
towards using styles if that's what it wants me to do, rather than (what
appears like) hiding what I'm looking for.
All this aside, I do actually use it whenever I quickly want to make a
presentation, so it isn't all bad ;) I hope this is constructive enough
to help.


Thanks for your input!
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (15-01-13 13:15)

[...]
Just below the group Wizards. Since it's only one line, it won't disturb
the rest of the menu (since the new item Save as template can be
removed). And it will make the features for templates, thus the new
dialog, much better visible :-)


Hi,

Since there are lots of things to do right before RC2 freeze, I proposed 
to do the work myself.

See https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1787
From the commit message:
  The menu 'Address book source' is not restored – that moved
  to the Tools menu already
  File > Template is placed directly below File > Wizards;
  File > Save As Template is removed

Of course this is temporary, until new situation that Cedric wrote about 
is near, and we can have a look at the new possibilities then.


Cheers,

Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Cedric

Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (15-01-13 10:06)

On Mon, 2013-01-14 at 20:32 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote:



[...]
And I still see File > New .. for editing or managing not as a natural
route.


Then may be we should find a new Wording for the File > New ... menu
item. In a not so far future (but not for 4.0.x) I'ld love to see the
whole sub-menu merged into the new Template Dialog, which may bring the
consistency you're missing.


[ To be discussed later .. but I'm not sure if e.g File > New > 
Spreadsheet is moved to a dialog. ]



Besides that: the old dialog also offerd Organise and Edit options (of
course in a indirect and not so good and pretty way as now, but it was
there.)


Organise and Edit options are also in the new Template manager dialog.


Yes, but since they also were in the old one, you cannot just use the 
situation that they in the new one, as an argument for removing the menu.



Being this way for years doesn't mean it needs to stay for ever and that
it was a good thing.


Indeed. We need arguments that show why a change is an improvement.


[...]

I'm still seriously looking for what is good here.


Sorry for my hesitant understanding of english, but do you mean you are
working toward a good design or that you couldn't find anything good
yet?


I mean - sorry for not being clear - that I do not yet see what the best 
solution is. Hence my remarks and questions.
I do see that the new dialog is better and more attractive. And I do see 
that Organise and Edit options are available there.
But those were also available in the old dialog, so that does not give 
me an argument to change the old menu.

If the problem is that the old menu was to way down, then move it up.
Just below the group Wizards. Since it's only one line, it won't disturb 
the rest of the menu (since the new item Save as template can be 
removed). And it will make the features for templates, thus the new 
dialog, much better visible :-)


Cheers,
Cor
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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Cedric,

Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (14-01-13 09:30)


The idea of a new template manager was to bring the content of that old
menu to the users. At least now they don't have to discover that item
(too far down in the File Menu) that triggers a sub-menu.


Is there a certain position in the menu's below which items are so far 
that they could be considered as not useful?

If so, the older menu sh/could have moved above that line ? ;-)


Instead they will discover that they can do things with templates in the
new dialog.


There is some positive perspective in this thought indeed.
But first users need to discover that.
And I still see File > New .. for editing or managing not as a natural 
route.
Besides that: the old dialog also offerd Organise and Edit options (of 
course in a indirect and not so good and pretty way as now, but it was 
there.)


Maybe others have an idea / argument here?


It is easier to find.
It is consistent with what people know.


Advanced users know it... the idea is to help people using templates
even if they aren't advanced users.


But in the old situation the users also find Edit and Organise in the 
menu File > New > Templates and documents.



The old menu's features are either in the new dialog or in other places
of the UI: that's why the whole submenu and it's content was dropped.


See previous remark. Old features already where there.
In this, I still fail to see a good argument why the old sub-menu is 
dropped.



Suggestions are nice,


Thanks :-)


but pretty not welcomed now for 4.0.x as we passed
string freeze (or our localizers friends won't be happy).


I'm not sure if it is helpful to start arguing about what is in time and 
not (I have multiple arguments that make it reasonable for me to bring 
in my arguments now). And apart from that, it does not have to be (close 
to) perfect from the first release, is it?


I'm still seriously looking for what is good here.

Thanks for your work and reply,
Cor

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any 
case my mail box does not show it).


We had the menu:
 File > Templates > Organise
Address Book Source
Save
Edit

Now we have:
 File > Save As Template
 File > New > Template


What is wrong with the old menu?
It is easier to find.
It is consistent with what people know.
And File > New > Template for editing / organising is not so logic with 
the rest of the menu File > New



Maybe the new menu could be:
 File > Templates > Organise / Edit
Save
Address Book Source

Ideas?

Thanks,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (12-12-12 18:11)

Kohei Yoshida wrote (12-12-12 14:29)

On 12/12/2012 01:32 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:


Of course I think it deserves a clear explanation in Help and Release
notes, with examples that help users understand whether they should
bother at all.
But also it looks as a very important new feature for enterprise
deployments.

Could you go ahead and help re-writethe documentation then?  Thanks a
lot.


I can make at least a beginning.
But can you confirm that the ideas that I wrote in my previous mail are
correct? That helps quite a lot before I start writing :-)


I extended the text on the wiki as a first start.
Look forward to your comments.
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ReleaseNotes/4.0#Calc


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template Manager: UI to reset the default template

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Cedric,

Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (10-01-13 08:40)


I'll need help to track these down: I would consider them as bugs. Could
you please report a list of the missing things in that area?


As far as I can see, everything is missing.


File > New > Templatemanager

* Tab - no result
* Ctrl+Tab - cycles through the tabs of the dialog, which is odd
  Ctrl+PgDwn/PgUp - does the same, which is OK
* No way to get focuson the folders as shown in the main window

Select folder with the mouse ..

* Enter does not open it
* Tab does not work , ..

Double click to open it ..

* No way to get focus on the templates

Select template with mouse ..

* Enter does not work
* Labels with buttons do not have accelerators..

As far as I can see, Markus has similar challenges with the dialog 
conditional formatting...


Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template Manager: UI to reset the default template

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Cedric,

Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (09-01-13 16:49)

Hum, yet another reply to myself... the Gear popup menu has the action
to reset the default template.


Nice and cool looking developments!
However it strikes met that key board functionality is not yet OK (build 
2013-01-07).
Any idea if that is basically the same problem as with the conditional 
formatting dialog (on Markus todo list - fdo#51556 ) ?

Should I file you an issue for it?

Thanks,

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LATE FEATURE: Personas in LibreOffice

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Kendy

Jan Holesovsky wrote (07-01-13 11:32)

Please let me know if this is acceptable, and if you need any help with the 
review.


Idea looks great to me and is an invitement for futher enhancements in 
the future :-)


I gues the code in a daily from 2012-12-28 (1) is not yet complet?
I see the option page, but choosing an own background image does not 
work (file picker handling is broken) and a choosen persona is not shown...


Cheers
Cor
1) Version 4.0.0.0.beta2+ (Build ID: 
1d7287f8d7984eae98a577f60a8bc0a740fc5e9)



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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] new years wishes

[Cor Nouws]

Wishing you all the best for 2013: love, joy, happiness, inspiration for 
your work and fun in building and sharing good things in life.


Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Michael Meeks wrote (12-12-12 22:24)


They sounded correct to me. It is notable that last I tried eg. google
docs it did exactly this too - retaining the cached results of formulae,
and the textual representation of them: far in excess of the set of
formulae it was able to actually calculate ;-) that gives a pleasing
result on first load, followed by ...


Glad that Calc does all correct except the real corner cases.


In general, we're talking (hopefully) smallish differences in
calculation result for the vast majority of cases I think - and I think
it's an excellent idea not to calculate on load:
at least until our re-calculate time is ~instant.


Oops - reading my other mails, I might tend towards preferring this 
behaviour to be persistent.


Thanks,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Kohei Yoshida wrote (12-12-12 21:07)

On 12/12/2012 01:32 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:

Hi Markus & team ;-)

Markus Mohrhard wrote (07-12-12 22:35)


Since 4.0 we are able to use the cached values written into OOXML
files to prevent a slow recalculation when opening a file. Hoewever
Excel and Calc don't always give the same result for formulas so we
(Eike, Kohei and me) agreed that we need to give the user a choice
wether to recalculate the formulas or not. This is already implemented
[...]


It's not only a matter of speed and not always giving the same results.
Unless I'm misinformed, it's a drastic change in behaviour.


No it's not a "drastic change in behavior".  That to me is a gross
dramatization of this change.  But that's just a difference of opinion I
guess.


I would say that - also in the very special cases - one can be 
(almost..) sure that the results on opening are the same as when saved, 
is a considerable change.

But I agree, choosing words here is a matter of taste.


For the
first time, users are sure they can always (?) open an Excel-sheet and
be sure that what they see is what they get... I mean what they see is
what has been saved.


Yes (if I interpret your wording correctly).  The formula results at the
time of the last save are what get cached and what get loaded, both in
ods and xlsx.


Yes, that is what I mean.


[snipped in]
Ah I should also point out that there are exceptions to this rule.  If a
cell contains what's called volatile function which need recalculating
on every input change, that cell gets recalculated on load.  Examples
are cells containging NOW() and TODAY(), and there may be other
functions that are in this category.
[\snipped in]



Especially in larger sheets, and those where undocumented or not yet
solved differences in behaviour (reg. arguments or ranges for some
formulae) exist.


I'm not sure I fully understand this sentence,


(sometimes Calc functions behave different with arguments that should be 
optional, sorting of ranges, different date within a referred range and 
such.
This is a second reason for different results that sometimes occur, then 
differences in processors, floating points, software versions.)



but I'll just say there
may be some instances in some corners where the formula get calculated
differently, to a varying degree depending on the version and
application (Calc vs Excel).


Clear.


I know some of those examples from real life.
Is my understanding correct?


I believe so.


OK, thanks for your further explanation.
I'll make to poste my draft text.

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Kohei Yoshida wrote (12-12-12 14:29)

On 12/12/2012 01:32 AM, Cor Nouws wrote:


Of course I think it deserves a clear explanation in Help and Release
notes, with examples that help users understand whether they should
bother at all.
But also it looks as a very important new feature for enterprise
deployments.

Could you go ahead and help re-writethe documentation then?  Thanks a lot.


I can make at least a beginning.
But can you confirm that the ideas that I wrote in my previous mail are 
correct? That helps quite a lot before I start writing :-)


thanks,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advice required on auto text resize (Impress)

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

(Having the pleasure to work with it recently, I started to look in my 
archive for this mail list... )


Stefan Knorr wrote (11-10-12 15:15)


so, here's a more constructive try to make the autofit feature better:


First thanks for the feature :-)
And yes, there is some opportunity to make it better.


* First of all, I don't really understand how to enable the autofit
feature on an abitrary new "TextEdit" [1]. The only way I know how to
enable it is to choose a certain slide template. And only then this item
appears in the context menu, so you can turn it off.


For me this is the most important part.
When editing, also when pasting larger pieces of text, you get lost on 
what is happening and how to have control.



* Secondly, there are actually two autofit features: the Text toolbar
contains a feature that even skews text, so it will fit the frame
(called Fit to Text Frame). Skewing text is really ugly and the feature
serves to confuse one when one is looking for ways to turn on/off
autofitting. Granted, it is not very visible. We might want to decide to
kill that feature anyway.


Never seen nor tried it. If it's bad, it may be removed. Maybe reuse the 
button..



* Third, I don't think it is necessary for people to know exactly what
font size their text is. What's important, is that they know when they


Well, I started to look to have an idea what was going on. So I wanted 
to check it as a visual feed back.

Once you know how to use / turn it of, it's not that important.


get below the 18pt threshold for readable text on slides. I would


 isn't  18pt  arbitrary? Depending on language (CTL..) too?


propose implementing a non-modal bar for this purpose or some form of
even less intrusive notification like a small red rectangle next to the
text field  with a tooltip or so.

* Fourth, autofitting should be easily available from the toolbar to
turn on/off. It should also be very visible that it is turned on. So,
how about a button for it directly next to the font size control?




[1] Really, we're showing that in the status bar ... that's definitely
implementation terminology in the wrong place. "Text Field" might be
more fitting.


It indicates you are editing text, so TextEdit does make some sense, IMO.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Markus & team ;-)

Markus Mohrhard wrote (07-12-12 22:35)


Since 4.0 we are able to use the cached values written into OOXML
files to prevent a slow recalculation when opening a file. Hoewever
Excel and Calc don't always give the same result for formulas so we
(Eike, Kohei and me) agreed that we need to give the user a choice
wether to recalculate the formulas or not. This is already implemented
[...]


It's not only a matter of speed and not always giving the same results. 
Unless I'm misinformed, it's a drastic change in behaviour. For the 
first time, users are sure they can always (?) open an Excel-sheet and 
be sure that what they see is what they get... I mean what they see is 
what has been saved.
Especially in larger sheets, and those where undocumented or not yet 
solved differences in behaviour (reg. arguments or ranges for some 
formulae) exist.

I know some of those examples from real life.
Is my understanding correct?

Of course I think it deserves a clear explanation in Help and Release 
notes, with examples that help users understand whether they should 
bother at all.
But also it looks as a very important new feature for enterprise 
deployments.



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Markus Mohrhard wrote (08-12-12 02:41)

Ok, I'll have a look at it. Originally I tried to keep the option
inside the Libreoffice Calc group but Load/Save might make sense too.


I would go for the first, e.g. Calc > Formula as mentioned by someone else.


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] new listbox in calc options pages

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Kohei,

Kohei Yoshida wrote (08-12-12 00:29)

On 12/07/2012 06:41 PM, Stefan Knorr wrote:



How are users supposed to know when they need it and when they don't?


They aren't.  Heck even we the Calc developers don't know that for sure.
[...]


Thanks for the explanation.
With the initial question making me a bit concerned, now it fits within 
the expience and information I have.
(Note: it even implies that results may vary over the versions of one 
product, and even between the same versions, when used on different 
machines. But indeed only with very advanced, complicated use cases).


In order to prevent people getting over concerned here: will appropriate 
information be put into the Help?


Best,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Scrollbar size minimum

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Mirek, *,

Mirek M. wrote (08-12-12 11:30)


I've been using LibreOffice under elementary OS for a while,
[...]


What should I imagine with " elementary OS " ?
Does that give restrictions compared to my usual Linux desktop?


On the other hand, a separate bar for tabs would make working with
sheets and layers much more comfortable for those who use a number of
them.


(keyboard...)


Though, ideally, we should use a sidebar instead (like most vector
drawing programs + Apple's Numbers).


Like the Navigator, when you can choose any sheet (and more)?


However, I think just setting a minimum size would be best.


Does sound reasonable yes.

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Meeting to discuss the Template manager lively?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi all,

Mirek M. wrote (06-12-12 17:17)


But rather than talk about why not double-click, here's the reason why
we should use single-click.


I wrote some ideas on this too when discussing the Styles dialog.

Just want to add that I support changes to more modern/intuitive 
behaviour. But then it's fine if it can be looked at in a wider context.
(and always in such a way that key board users will not suffer from 
changes ;-) )


Cheers,
Cor

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New Layout for Insert Table Dialog

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (01-12-12 13:06)

I've renamed it back to "AutoFormat":
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1217


Yeah.. thanks for doing so. And sorry that I did not respond to 
apparently an earlier design in which the name change was included. I 
simply miss the possibility to follow all that's demanding for attention 
(in due time).


cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New Layout for Insert Table Dialog

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (27-11-12 12:14)

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (26-11-12 23:11)



I renamed the button "AutoFormat" to "Table Styles".


I'm not yet convinced that that is appropriate.
Although some real improvements have been mate to the feature last year,
I think we need to be more careful with renaming.


So I thought a bit more about it:
- Styles behave such, that when you change it, the elements that have it 
applied, will change.

- Styles are ordered in the dialog Style and Formatting
- Styles can be used as base to create a new style and those inherit 
preperties.


These and maybe more do not apply for the automatic table formatting. So 
I would really advice to keep the existing name AutoFormat.


Cheers,
Cor


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Niklas,

Niklas Johansson wrote (27-11-12 15:50)


It brought one thought to my mind though. I really miss a keyboard shortcut
that would open the "Apply Style" combo box so it looks like this.


Ctrl+F11 and then Alt+down will do :-)


As I noted in a message, witch by mistake went directly to Kendy, I
would really like it if a style only gets added to the combo box
when it is explicitly being used. Ex. When you use the style
Heading 1, the style Heading gets added because
Heading 1 is based on Heading. I'd like to avoid this.


I do not agree here.
It's good to show users - some initial often used / important styles.

regards,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New svtools/uiconfig/ui/restartdialog.ui

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Stephan,

Stephan Bergmann wrote (27-11-12 14:13)

Just a heads-up that

"Introduce a Restart dialog that allows to automatically restart LO"
introduces a new .ui-style dialog that could probably benefit from some
UX love.


Thanks for the heads-up !
Do you have a screen shot of how it looks?

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Rafael, *


[  First: the paragraphs in your mail shows up in my Thunderbird as one 
long line. Could you pls check if there is some gmail setting curing 
that :-)
Also: If you have the previous mails replying to them each and 
preferably in-line, helps me spending less time on mail reading and 
understanding. Which is useful with all that is passing by. thanks ;-) ]



Rafael Rocha Daud wrote (27-11-12 14:53)


Cor, what actions one needs to select a style for? Unless I'm wrong,
they're only right clicking for context menu (then New..., Modify...
or Delete...), which doesn't require single left click first.


So you suggest to have lift click for applying and right click for 
selecting and the other actions? Sounds fine :-)
On the other hand, what comes to my mind rapidly is that in most cases a 
user first selects an item in a list-box, and then presses OK (or such), 
or, alternatively double-clicks... So that at least explains the behaviour.
But since we don't have a button 'apply', indeed I know users sometimes 
are looking around .. ;-)



Apart
from that, about the upper button "New Style from selection", what I
gather is 'selection' here refers to the cursor in the text, not the
style selected in the Stylist.


Correct. "Text at cursor position / selected" is more appropriate - but 
long...



style selected in the Stylist. If we could indeed use single click to
apply a style, then double-click could be assigned to Modify ('edit
style' dialog), which in my opinion would be a productive boost.


Maybe...
And what about Delete? Leave that in the context menu?
Wondering what others think.

Thanks for your input!

Cor

PS - if at a certain moment we have the feeling that there is not so 
much input on a question and still are a bit in doubt, it might be an 
idea to consult e.g the users list ... with a specific question?


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New Layout for Insert Table Dialog

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (26-11-12 23:11)

It's pushed [1] now and Caolan resolved [2] the remaining issues.


thanks!


I renamed the button "AutoFormat" to "Table Styles".


I'm not yet convinced that that is appropriate.
Although some real improvements have been mate to the feature last year, 
I think we need to be more careful with renaming.



The remaining occurrences [3] of "AutoFormat" need also renaming.

Is there someone willing to do that? I don't have the time for it at the
moment.


That list is not solely for this autoformat feature.
And renaming will cause some thinking to about what to do with the 
function as it is in API.



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Mirek M. wrote (26-11-12 15:49)


Drag and drop is a longer and more complex action than double-click.
Why not just apply a style on single-click, same as in the style drop-down?


Have been thinking about that.
But you need to be able to select a style for more actions than 
applying. So I see a problem there.


(My idea was:
  apply with double-click,
  show in document with ctrl-click /
then apply with releasing ctrl and revert with releasing mouse
But would not dare to ask ;-) )


(And don't forget that it's possible to select a style by typing Enter 
when it's selected, which can be easy when the Stylist opens floating 
after hitting F11 )



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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Icons in menus by default

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (25-11-12 14:29)

I've created the bug first

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57510


Someone in the issue says that it's very unusual in Mac.
That is something I've no idea about.
Others?


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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] test

[Cor Nouws]

ping ..

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Icons in menus by default

[Cor Nouws]

Cor Nouws wrote (23-11-12 17:57)

There's not so much that I can do in code without a relative huge amount
of effort, but this one is well doable. And since I was involved in the
discussion, I offer kindly to do this :-)


I've created the bug first

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57510


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Kendy,

Jan Holesovsky wrote (24-11-12 22:31)


I've changed the indifferent word "Default" there to "Default
Style" [which is much more descriptive] just recently - I think the last


noticed yes. Good improvement.


week - so I guess no real damage if we remove it from the preselected
list, and have just Text Body there.


I'm not sure how people, that are looking for Default, will react :-)



The preselection works a bit differently - it is hardcoded, so I can
change in the code what appears in the UI when the new document is open.


But then again, when a document uses a style that is not used in the 
default list, it is added.
So me would expect having Default Style not in the hard coded list, and 
then opening a new document with Default Style ... it is simply shown in 
Select Styles :-)



And - being at the HackFest in Munich, I've just managed to get the
previews of the styles working:

http://artax.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~kendy/blog/archives/permalinks/2012-11-24T21_03_58.html

Feels much better this way :-) - I hope OK for you?


Looks very nice :-) which in itself is important.
I have no idea how people will use it however.
Maybe it lowers the step to start using styles?

Cheers,

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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Default Styles in Writer

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel,

Initial remark:

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (23-11-12 17:48)


[..]
Reasons:
* "Text body" is the same as "Default Style", except that it has a
margin at the bottom, so I would suggest to remove "Default Style" from
the list.


This is not true.
Nearly all styles inherit from Default Style.
And much less do so from Text Body.

I support the idea to have people use text Body in stead of Default 
Style 

However, people are used taking Default (Style), will get confused.
Also a clean new document and many existing documents (and other 
applications) show Default Style...


Technically however: as a style is used in the document, it is shown in 
the list Apply Style.
So removing Default Style will only be possible if you change the 
default New document :-)


Thus: when we remove Default Style from the list by default, and change 
the default 'template' so that it shows Text Body for the single 
paragraph, we only confuse people ;-)


What do others think?

(For the rest (title, sorting) kudoos ;-) )

Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Icons in menus by default

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Mirek, all,

Mirek M. wrote (23-11-12 14:44)


Could somebody set "Icons in menus" to always be on by default,
regardless of the OS default?


There's not so much that I can do in code without a relative huge amount 
of effort, but this one is well doable. And since I was involved in the 
discussion, I offer kindly to do this :-)



( working on Popup menu Show / Hide Comments to work on a selection is 
far less easy, as it turns out ;-) )


Cheers,


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Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] New Layout for Insert Table Dialog

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel Mehrbrodt wrote (21-11-12 18:10)


I have modified the layout and wording of the "Insert Table" Dialog in
Writer a bit, see attached screenshot.


Thanks!


Any suggestions for improvement?


'First Row is a Heading' is not consistent with the possibility to set 
more than one row, that will be repeated when the table is split over pages.
And since you made the other labels a bit more clear, maybe it's enough 
to say just 'Heading' (I do not see a simple alternative now).



I am not sure if the spacing between widgets is correct.


I like that the Check for repeat and the word 'Heading' are aligned.
It looks prettier to me, if the indent is a bit more - though not as 
much as in the old dialog.


Regards,


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